Repubs don't like people who point out their failings. And, of course, the worst thing you can be is right.

Thanks for your service, General. You were ill used.

I can't think of one person who hasn't fallen under a shadow because of their association with it. Even John Kerry seems to be tainted by it these days, making a sad spectacle.

Hillary didn't gain much or accomplish much either by being a part of it, to be honest.

In fact, I'm sick of reading this kind of shit.

things, even if others don't like what we have to say.

Problem solved.

Ignore posters is the efficient way, then you never see one of their silly threads again.

everything the Obama administration does and everyone in it. If people fall under a "shadow", that's just the nature of politics.

But please tell me: what shadow has Joe Biden fallen under? Or the head of the Consumer Protection Agency? Or the head of the FDA? Or of numerous other heads in the administration?

To tell the truth, I think Biden has disagreed with many of Obama's policies, but because he is a good man, and knows the role of the V.P., will not speak about it.

As for those others you mentioned, I don't even know their names. They haven't exactly made a name for themselves serving in the Obama admin.

you don't remember the names says more about you -- and your lack of knowledge-- than it does about the performance of any of them.

How can you judge people you don't even know? The fact is that few of them have fallen under any shadow -- except for the clouds of lies put out by the Rethugs.

and unsurprising, I don't think I have even seen you post anything that wasn't flattering about Obama or his admin.

But I am not happy, for example, with his administration's actions on Education. And I wish his FDA had required the labeling of GMO's and I don't think they should be moving so slowly on e-cigs. But I don't think anyone in the FDA or Education has fallen under a "shadow." I just don't agree with all their decisions.

And some "Democrats".

Isn't that Micheal Taylor??
Former Lawyer & Lobbyist for MONSANTO?
Hasn't the Obama Administration turned the FDA into a Revolving Door for Monsanto?

Monsanto petition tells Obama: ‘Cease FDA ties to Monsanto’
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/monsanto-petition-tells-obama-cease-fda-ties-to-monsanto/2012/01/30/gIQAA9dZcQ_blog.html

Yes. I would expect Monsanto Execs and Lobbyists to do well in the Obama Administration.

With fromer Clinton stooges and Centrist idiots, it would not be, but of course, it sure helps that many seem to love backstabbing the person who employed them in tell all books, especially Geitner, Gates and Clinton herself.

Let me guess, when President Hillary cuts benefits and goes to war in Iran, you and many others will just say we should support Empress Hillary's "hard choices."

WTF ever, I think I can see where you are coming from, and its not a pleasant place.

It's from a place where many people loyal to demcorats were labaled as sexist because they did not vote for her in the primary.

It's from a place where Bill and Hill joined the GOP in the demonization of the lower to middle classes, whether by welfare reform, or Hillary's cheerleadign of the H1b-Visa, aka the bill that killed jobs for Gen X and Y.

It's from a place that had to hear Hillary bray out "assad must go" and knows that we do NOT want to go to war with Syrians, Iranians or other, no matter how bad Tel Aviv wants it.

Yes, it is an UGLY place.

But I don't go running around being deliberately insulting to her.

We had an embarrassment of riches when choosing between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, and I am overjoyed that it looks like we're going to get a chance to have both.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Kerry was under shadow to start the process. Clinton was extremely tainted going into it.

I'm not much of a fan of the Obama administration. But possibly the biggest problem has been the people chosen to join the administration. The people brought in seem to have determined the direction of motion, and all to often it has not been in the favor of the people.

and it is very very sad to see.

As soon as he said it would take several hundred thousand troops to do Iraq right he was immediately 86'd. Then after being shafted he came back at Presidents Obama's request to try and clean up the monumental mess bush/cheney/rumsfeld made. I have nothing but respect for the man to get treated the way he was and still be willing to come back and try to do right says a lot about him as an individule.

He was blindsided by the corruption revealed in the past two weeks.

But I have no doubt he would have fixed it.

Is that he was on the job 5 years.

If after 5 years you are blindsided by corruption this massive, what were you doing the last 5 years?

If this was a year into the job, I would agree. 5 years? I can't think of a viable excuse for being blindsided by something this bad.

Has been reported to the entire Congress since at least 2004. No one was "blindsided" by it. The congress gives billions in tax cuts for the wealthy without batting an eye lash, but funding the VA is too expensive. Congress can allocate the money to fix this problem, they have not been interested in at least a decade. As recently as last week, they voted No on more VA hospitals. Why doesn't every one of them resign? Why do Dems fall for every republican diversion?

The massive increase in patients in the system should have come with massive increase in funds to deal with the greater numbers. His job was to scream loudly about the shortcomings, drag congressmen through the facilities (by the neck, if necessary) and make them look at the mess they created.

He couldn't do his job properly with the resources available. His job, then, was to be a royal pain in the ass to the powers that be, deficits be damned.

This is what he should of done. But it is a lot easier to try to manage things the best you can. I'm wondering if his military background also works against him speaking up.

fail because of the underfunded budget from Congress.

The VA's budget has doubled in the last 10 years. Their patient load has increased by 1/3. This was not a budget issue.

I just use the VA's own numbers. Maybe you have better ones than they do. https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS22897.pdf

if the money doubled in 5 years.... that is 100 %. However the medical costs probably rose 50 % or more in those 5 years.

so that leaves 50% increase.... but minus the 33% more people.... it leaves 17 %.

Using "doubling" expenditures over 5 years kind of misleads.

I am not the President or VA Secretary. But I do know Obama has not made the VA's budget an issue since 2009. Congress has given Obama pretty much everything he asked for in the VA budget requests. There are many people on this board who think it is impossible that some in government perform badly. They think if there are any problems it must be a money issue. Well as best as I can tell this was not the case here. It was a case of a bunch of rotten people trying to game the system.

I was not making a comment about Obama exactly. I was making the comment that some numbers may look bigger (or smaller) when one delves deeper. Apparently there also was a failed bill that would have supplied more money that was not passed by Congress.

for a $10 billion dollar increase.

http://www.stripes.com/news/va-budget-to-get-10-1-billion-increase-under-white-house-plan-1.271196

That is a request for next year. He has never said Congress was not funding the VA. Never. Congress has given him what he asked for since 2009. Just look at the budget numbers.

There's a difference. This was during a period of time when the House was refusing to approve ANY spending bills. Remember the debt limit fights? Or have you already forgotten them?

Disgusting.

Name one time since 2009 Obama said the VA was underfunded. Name one time since 2009 General Shinseki said the VA was underfunded. What is the lie in the numbers?

in patient load -- and they had insufficient staffing to begin with, so every year it gets worse.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/may/21/katrina-vanden-heuvel/katrina-vanden-heuvel-says-congress-has-slashed-fu/

This VA budget summary sheet shows that, far from being "slashed," discretionary spending on the VA has risen each year over the last decade. In fact, on Obama’s watch, the VA’s discretionary budget has risen from $47.8 billion in 2009 to $63.4 in 2014 -- a one-third increase over five years.

sadly, I think the problems at the VA may become page 17.

Agree that's probably what will happen. The Republicans not funding for the after math of their war is the problem. (Dems not off totally off the hook there, either). And that the war profiteering continues below what Shinseki probably was able to know about.

Would have been great if he could have come in an gotten to the bottom of the abuses. But, he's a former general and not a hospital administrator who might have known where to look. I wouldn't trust a hospital administrator in that position either, though. Many of them have been known for their own corruption. In my state we had two of our largest hospitals found to have abuses in accounting ....and it went to the top.

Tough thing to figure out what comes next. Probably an Administrator from one of the Big Insurance Companies with ties to Wall Street will be the next figurehead at VA. Hopefully that won't be the case...but, the pattern is there for appointments.

A good soul. He wasn't stupid--he knows how they've gone after Obama from the git-go and thwarted his agenda. He did what he had to do.

Actually spending the money and effort to acquire players and assess you need to be successful is hard. So why not just endlessly replace the guy at the top to give the appearance you're trying.

I would have told them to blow Cheney.

Rumsfeld lost his job for the same reason - not because he didn't do the job his "boss" wanted him to do.

Once Dems started calling for his resignation, it was over. Its unfair. He didn't deserve it. He is a good man. But that's how it went down.

droves to call for his resignation like fucking programmed sheep.

Dudette @Dudette9t9
Follow
@Smartypants60 Dems saw GOP vote down bill after bill. Then piled on SecShinseki instead of placing blame where it shld be. Disgusting!
7:56 AM - 30 May 2014
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The ones that were calling for Shinseki to step down I mean... he should've just came out and said Shinseki isn't the problem, get fucked... in those exact words.

I read the news.

I'm guessing they talked it over and decided this was the best for the VA and those fucking Dems calling for his head. Damn their stupid jumping to rw bullshit. Dumbshits.

to talk to the patients and figure out what was going on with their healthcare?

As his republican predecessors.

Is responsible for appropriation to pay for the VA. The CONGRESS knew about this since at least 2004, so spare me your pathetic blame the secretary game who has no power to obtain more resources which are vitally necessary to fix this problem. The thing that is really not okay, is just last week Republicans refused to pass senator sanders legislation that would have begun the process to address some of the problem. Republicans think war is free, repuicans are blocking any fix to the problem. Clearly you are quite confused!

letting everyone know that veterans were dying and committing suicide because of the VA's lack of funds. Except that it doesn't seem like he was even aware that was going on.

Why your hair is on fire about this now. I can't find any post from you trying to alert people to this. The MSM has admitted THEY knew about but failed to report it. Why aren't you calling the republican congress and asking them to stop lying about how they support the troops. I don't get people like you who pretend problems only exist when democrats are trying to clean messes made by the children also known as republicans in DC. I'm going to ignore you now.

and obfuscate. Stick with the issue - Shinseki's efforts.

Our VA facility have had brass (including him) pay visits. I can tell you the visits are very, very,very controlled and orchestrated. The high level visitors are literally surrounded by people from the facility exec office and that group goes to the shiny, new places in the hospital and who they get to actually talk to staged.
Trust me. The high level visitors are not given the chance to visit the general population or wander around alone.
And any workers who know what happens at the VA would never approach the visitor to expose anything out of fear of retaliation from the facility.

No entourage or top brass. Nobody is going to turn him away. That is how to find out what is really going on.

And if it was a lack of funding that was an issue, the White House should've been out in front of it saying that Veterans are dying waiting in lines because Republicans won't approve the necessary funding to treat them, rather than waiting for the press to expose the problem.

If Shinseki knew precisely what was going on and informed the President, then fine Shinseki is vindicated. But one thing I do know is that it's not impossible to take care of our veterans, it just takes more willpower than we presently have.

dont underestimate the encouragement that a general walking the plank can give to others.
i hope he has company on the unemployment line.

but trust this-
everyone within six degrees of shinseki knows who is on what side of which.
those that lied to him will be unlikely to be trusted by any but the bought.

Where were Shinseki's HAIR ON FIRE reports and interviews of the mess he inherited? He was in the position enough time (years!!) to make a positive difference. Appears things got even worse with him in charge. Moving on was the right thing to do.

Without a doubt. If there is anything republicans believe in - it is retribution.

To report this immediately. If he didn't know, then he was bad at his job. If he did know, he's a despicable hack. Either way, it was time to find someone better.

Last edited Sat May 31, 2014, 01:47 AM - Edit history (2)

It is quite simple actually. It all goes back to the Reagan administration and the great budget cuts.All of which was done in such a way that it would take next to forever to fix it ,or undo the damage.That is if anybody really wants to go there .Oh and the power that was handed down through bureaucratic channels. David Stockman ring a bell or two ?



How bout those young republicans of the 1980's .Party reform all that.

It all goes straight back to Reagonomics.

And how they all miss that soooo much.
Oh and people are living longer these days and that cost's a lot too.
Ask any long standing republican.

They screwed up everything everywhere and permeated a followup system /methods to drive the shaft into the populace to no seeming end..

Ronnie did, the young republican reform party hero.
And you know where they are now right ?

It's not just the veterans administration branch of government that is sadly broken and abused-is it- /?

Secret lists and cooking books and destroying files and all that.

And going paperless and records get lost in the action and people forgotten.

Indeed the system is broken.
And the bad ones keep it broken and receive bonus's for their deeds done.

You have to take into consideration the two sided coin same on both sides, in order to accomodate a side the other side must be robbed, in other words rob Peter to pay Paul,that's how it works. The republicans know how it works ,that is why they voted against increasing the budget. They believe the system in place(Reagonomics) will handle it. Thing of it is, people/voters are not supposed to see that,not actually .

Ok so the VA, if one is not currently active in the system,or hasn't been for a length of time,or not in the system at all, such individuals are the very lowest of priority-or person's non grada.
And that's the side of the coin that don't count. That's admin.stuff. And the budget. Cooking books and secret lists is covering tracks. And of course that is criminal activity.
In order to prosecute that it is necessary to find where it began in order to bring it to an end.
Clearly the republicans are confident that will never happen.

And so finger pointing cause elections are not far off. The republicans will try to place the blame of all the damage done by republicans on the democrates.

Reagonomics. The public has a short memory and all that jazz.

Republicans voting against adequate funding simply is not part of the story.

dealing with the attempted dismantling of the VA by so called "fiscal conservatives" and advocates for the privatization of functions that rightfully belong in the hands of the Federal government.

Forgive me for adding words into your op.

I'm a vet who thinks the world of Shinseki and the VA and has nothing but contempt for a Teabagging Congress.

This is really about throwing SOMEONE under the bus, almost anyone, especially someone in charge, because that us easier than doing the hard work of reform. It is much harder to fire the ones really to blame.

(And, as an aside, I think it SHOULD be hard to fire someone and that you should only be able to fire someone for cause and that cause needs to be documented. Because they failed to document the problems, or failed to follow the disciplinary procedures, does not mean that all VA or government employees should be treated like almost all private sector employees, where you can fire someone at a whim, really. I really hate capitalism for that. No one, public or private should be "at will". That whole system is WRONG. But this is a digression from the main point.)

Republicans blame Shinseki, but really they have only themselves to blame, both for the unnecessary, illegal wars that THEY started (okay with Democratic complicity), but also for refusing to fund the VA and other services that veterans need.

This is also about politics. Many of the Democrats calling for his head were in the middle of campaigns, where they had to say he should be fired or else lose. They are basically cowards; they always are. Spineless weasels, the lot of them. So maybe he resigned because he continued presence was a distraction, but I'm worried that, now that the Republicans have their pound of flesh, everyone washes their hands and says "problem solved" when it is far from solved.

And in the news instead of keeping it all in house and mumbling about it here and there.

As long as Democrats who fear the GOP remain cowards in the face of their onslaughts, DC will be toxic.

As long as citizen-Democrats continue to have amnesia about how we got here, we will continue to lose good men.

This is not Obama's fault. Or Shinseki's.

Now the GOP has the head of another good man on a pike outside their gates, they'll be gunning for the President's.

They have the genuine scandal they've been looking for all these years -- the fact that they created it is beside the point. All that matters is that it is ongoing during this administration, FOX is on their side, citizens are amnesiac, and Congressional Democrats are cowards.

PS for those who need this reminder: Possession of a memory of decades past does not mean I am a cultist, it only means I recognize patterns.

Secretary Shinseki is out of a job because he had that job for five years while this Criminal Fraud was going on all along under his nose. I might agree he shouldn't have been fired if he'd had the job for a few months, or even perhaps as long as a year. But for five years of his leaderships people got bonus checks, promotions, and raises all for lying about how great they were doing.

Now, there are two possible answers for what Secretary Shinseki was doing all this time. Option A is that Secretary Shinseki was grossly incompetent and did not one time go to any of the VA facilities and actually speak to the Vets he's supposed to represent to find out how they were doing. Not one time in five years did he pop in and say hi, I'm General Shinseki, and I was wondering how you find the process going here today? He had vacations during that time. I'm sure he banged in sick a few times. But he couldn't be bothered to travel to any of these facilities and say hello to the actual vets even once. Undercover Boss may be staged nonsense, but there is always something to be said about taking a look for yourself when you're in charge. So option A in short is gross incompetence, in which case he must be fired.

Option B. Secretary Shinseki suspected, or knew that this fraud was going on and took no action. Option B is obviously the old Blind Eye technique. If he doesn't "officially" know what is going on, he can't be expected to take action. If it is Option B, then Secretary Shinseki had to be fired for failure to carry out the duties of his office.

There is no Option C. You can't argue that he didn't have time to find out what was going on. Five years. He was confirmed on January 20th 2009. Five years he was in charge. He had more than enough time to fully assume responsibility. You can't argue that he is the perfect person to clean up the mess. Because he didn't even learn about it for five years, or he turned a blind eye to it for some portion of that time.

The proper course of action at this time is A. Announce a massive investigation into the criminal actions, I mentioned Criminal Fraud above, when you lie, and get money you have not earned, that is fraud. That is just the surface, there is almost certainly criminal negligence involved. But there is certainly Fraud involved, and that must be investigated fully.

B. Do not name someone who is a policy wonk to the post. Name someone who has the reputation of cleaning up messes. Yesterday, someone mentioned General Honre' of Katrina Fame. Someone like that certainly although he is a tad too Conservative for my tastes. Someone who won't tolerate lies or incompetence and charge them with the single mission of bringing truth and honesty in the treatment of the Vets to the staff. Flatly tell the staff if you don't think this is an important job, then resign immediately. Co-operate with the criminal investigation, and show the remaining staff that liars will not be allowed to retire with their ill gotten gains, but will be prosecuted for their crimes.

Opposing Republicans is certainly important for Democrats. However, it is asinine beyond description to even try to defend the indefensible and excuse the intolerable all for the purpose of opposing Republicans. Some things are so egregious, so outrageous that they must be addressed with all the energy one can muster. This certainly qualifies as one of those situations. If on the other hand, you feel it necessary to defend criminal fraud in an effort to oppose Republicans, I can assure you that the voters will take note, and will not be amused or impressed by your party loyalty. They will see party loyalty trumping even the most basic tenets of human decency. The only way we will ever see single payer is if we hold those who oversee the state run medical facilities fully accountable and insist that the provide the best possible care to those in their charge. Only by refusing to accept less than that the very best will we ever see Single Payer support rise to a majority of the citizens.

This is larger than the VA. It's larger than a few thousand dollars of fraudulently gained bonus checks. This is a battle between right, and wrong, not RW versus Left.

That sir, is the true end, full stop.

The VA has been horrifically underfunded since the start of the Iraq & Afghanistan Wars and the tsunami of broken vets these wars produced. We have heard about the long wait times and poor PTSD treatment for years. The GOP still refused and continues to refuse multiple attempts by Dems to fund more doctors and treatment. On February 27, 2014, Senate Republicans blocked a $21 billion Veterans Bill for medical, education and job-training benefits for our veterans. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/27/bernie-sanders-veterans-bill_n_4868932.html.

The management of these VA facilities has been asked to do an impossible job. Some, rather than protesting or walking out, simply pretended the horrors were not happening. They decided to just protect themselves and their bonuses. Those managers should be punished, because they hurt vets by being GOP enablers. Shinseki was not one of those. He too was given an impossible job. He did it the best he could. But given the resources he had, he could not and did not do the job needed. The person who fills Shinseki's shoes will face the same issue. Shinseki was not the problem, GOP refusal to fund the VA was.

But while you are blaming the Rethugs for not providing the funding, realize the truth. That the message the VA was sending was at best mixed, and at worst disingenuous. Let me ask you this. Let's say I work for you, I supervise a warehouse, one of many that you own. I tell you that the staff at the warehouse is meeting and exceeding all expectations. I then ask you for more money to meet operational needs, a lot more money. Would you give it to me?

The answer is no. You would deny me a large increase in operating funds, because I was reporting to you that all operations were meeting or exceeding the standards. While the VA was asking for more money, they were reporting that they were attending to every Vet within 14 days. It takes six months to get my wife in to see her Doctor for a routine appointment. The PA's are booked solid for the next three months. By the VA reporting that the average wait time for an appointment was less than two weeks, hence the bonus money paid to the fraudsters, it was a performance that was far superior than a vast majority of private practice medical providers.

Now, even if you do want to prove that you are absolutely in favor of supporting the Vets, could you vote for more money? Remember, the reported average wait time was less than two weeks. In reality, we now KNOW that the average wait time was more than three months, but the bonus checks were paid for achieving a wait time of less than two weeks on average. Especially when you know that Boston has an average wait time of 45 days.

SO while the VA was reporting fantastic service, meeting or exceeding all the expectations of Management, they were asking for large increases in their budget.

Back to the notional warehouse I am running for you. If I tell you that I must hire more people, and that the people I have are working their asses off and still not able to meet the expectations, and they need more manpower, and more equipment to reach your goal. Then my request for more money seems far more reasonable. I am trying to meet your standards, but I am unable because I do not have enough people, and enough equipment to make it an achievable goal. Then you would consider giving me more money far more seriously than if I told you I wanted it in the other scenario. If the VA had reported that the average wait time was 115 days, and many people were not even on the list because the appointments program did not allow you to book anything further out. Then if I declined to provide you with more money you could, and should, call me a heartless bastard and blame me for the problem that I refused to address. If you tell me everything is going swimmingly, and could you please have more money, you can't expect me to cough it up or blame me that the truth was hidden from me.

I mentioned above. There are plenty of times to oppose the Rethugs. Plenty of issues on which they are on the indefensible side of an issue. On this issue, those Democrats who bemoan the firing of Shinseki and who say that it's all the Rethugs fault are standing solidly in the middle of the indefensible. By pointing the finger and pretending that Shinseki did not have five years, let me repeat that, five years, to find the truth, Democrats look like partisan hacks who won't accept responsibility for failures.

If you found I was lying to you about how well your Warehouse was operating, you would fire me. If you paid me bonus checks because I had cooked the books, you would turn those books over to the police and have me arrested for Fraud. Why shouldn't we expect the same level of honesty, and hold those at the VA equally accountable. Everyone holds con men who take advantage of Seniors and the disabled in the highest contempt with good reason. How are you going to stand there and complain it's the Republicans fault that the con men at the VA were lying and stealing from the Veterans?

If Shinseki had told the truth, that wait times were over 115 days and people were dying waiting for appointments and procedures, then yes, you could and should blame the Republicans and you would have me standing beside you in full throated agreement. But blaming the Republicans for believing the lies reported by Secretary Shinseki is asinine, and isn't going to fly with the public because it is so obviously a partisan trick to try and shift the blame to your political opponents. We can not claim to be the party of Responsibility, of accountability, and of honest Government with that plan. All we can say we stand for is blaming the Republicans when we get caught. That is not the Democratic party I voted for in 1988, and every election since.

You imply that if only those VA managers in Arizona that sparked this scandal had not lied about the wait times, the VA would be adequately funded. That is not true.

Shinseki called for more funding. You say Shinseki did not tell the truth. You imply he knowingly lied. There is no evidence of that. What lie did Shinseki knowingly say?

I said you can't blame the GOP until after knowing the actual wait times, they refuse the funding. When the next funding bill comes up, and they now knowing the actual wait times and the truth about the VA situation, they say no, then you can say they are heartless bastards about the care of our Veterans. Until then, you appear to be nothing but a partisan hack for trying to blame them for this.

Secretary Shinseki provided the information to Congress. It remains to be seen if he knew or suspected that the information was false. But the false information was carried by him to Congress, or transmitted to congress through him. The information was wrong.

It is doubtful that the problem exists only in Arizona. Or only in "Red States" as someone else tried to point out. Trying to make this a club to beat the GOP is going to backfire terribly. The peasants are headed to the castle with pitchforks and torches. Trying to point out that they should slide by certain houses and burn them down on the way isn't going to work. You can join them, or you can stand by and watch. Those are your two choices. Nobody is going to view this as a purely GOP, or DNC scandal. There is plenty of blame to go around, which is why the Democrats had joined the Republicans in calling on Shinseki to resign.

Stop trying to view this is a way to blast the GOP and hurt them in the election. Because the GOP answer will hurt us far more.

Everyone knows homeless vets have been living under bridges and killing themselves from PTSD on a daily basis FOR DECADES. Sadly, no one has stormed congress with pitchforks over it. Americans say we support our troops, but we really don't.

What is the GOP "answer" that will hurt us so much? That it is all Shinseki's fault? Please.

Try to remember that in January when Congress finally breaks the "gridlock" and starts passing bills to send to the President once again holding the nation hostage to Government shut downs. Try to remember that the GOP doesn't really care and the image of them pounding the desks won't resonate with voters when President Obama is faced with the choice of giving in or shutting down the Government. Try to remember that when the charge of Democrats ignored the FRAUD going on in the VA and refuse to prosecute ads start.

I for one will be shaking my head in disgust when all that happens. But it's possible I could be wrong, and we might hold the Senate by a vote or two. I hope so, because unlike you most of the Vulnerable Democrats who are holding office do see this as a massive lose lose situation and they are routinely blasted here on DU for joining with the Rethugs. I wonder why Senator Udall doesn't just tell the Reporters that it's all the Rethugs fault? Perhaps because he'd rather win the election?

It will be because Dems are too busy hand-wringing, like you're doing, instead of shouting a full-throated support of Dem policies...policies like funding our vets, rather than wars.

But again, 67% of the VA facilities were participating in the fraud. Now again, think about this. A majority of the reports you were getting as a Congress Critter is that the VA is doing an awesome job, average wait time is below 14 days. How can you be blamed for not spending more money?

This is another straw on the camel. And the other Dem policies I object to, is NSA/FBI/CIA/DHS/GCHQ spying on the citizens in complete violation of the Fourth Amendment. If you think for one minute I'm going to go silent on that abomination you think less of me than I would imagine. I suppose you could add war in Syria to that mix, but I'm not nearly so vocal on that issue. I wasn't aware that being a Dem meant being in favor of Police brutality, but I won't change my opposition to that either.

The Patriot Act and the resultant degradation of our 4th Amendment rights is a GOP policy implemented under Dubya. Obama has made some reforms to the Patriot Act, but any substantial changes are blocked by the GOP.

67% of VA facilities did not commit fraud. That is the kind of crap GOP mouthpieces like Charles Krauthammer have been pedaling to claim we should privatize veteran health, predictably calling for its replacement by a voucher program.

Congress critters know damn well vets have been suffering for decades. The 12+ month backlog for disability benefits has been well known for years. So yes, you CAN blame the GOP for not spending the money. What is the GOP's excuse for not approving the $21 Billion now?

How many facilities participated in the fraud if 67% did not?

Candidate Obama, before he got the nomination, said that the data collection was unconstitutional. That was when he was a Senator, fighting for the nomination, and touting his experience and knowledge as a Constitutional Law Teacher. But perhaps the Constitutional Law Teacher didn't know what he was talking about. You see, the President has the power to control the Executive Branch. He can say no more, and hasn't.

But go ahead, and explain why the Democrats are blameless and the 67% figure is inaccurate since you know the truth. How many was it?

There are 1700 VA facilities. The media have been mentioning the AZ facility and a few others, but no one is saying over 1100 underreported hospital wait times, as your figure would suggest. My Google search using that figure yields no MSM news stories citing that figure. Where did you get it?

Your nonsensical little anti-Obama rant, suggests you are not particularly interested in the truth.

Allow me to prove one thing right now. This is not an Anti-Obama rant. Unless of course the words of President Obama from Friday, which one would think you had managed to hear or read as a Democrat constitute an Anti-Obama rant. In your world, perhaps it does. In my world, when the President Speaks, I pay attention because he is the President of the United States and the leader of my Party even when I may disagree with him on an issue or two. I still give him the respect to hear or at least read his words.

I've answered dozens, and shown you to be utterly ignorant of any details in this situation. You haven't answered one question. When you answer one, I'll answer one. So for the third time. How many was it if the 67% figure is incorrect. Now, that you've been faced with the proof from President Obama that it was not merely the facility in Arizona, what will you grasp at next?

How many? The least you could admit is that you don't know. That would show you had some willingness to admit truth. Instead you cling stubbornly to the asinine question which led you to accuse me of an Anti-Obama rant because I was aware of what President Obama had said on Friday.

How many? How Many? How many? By now, everyone reading this knows that your determination to pin this solely and sqarely on the GOP is at best shallow nonsense, and at worst delusional. So how long will you keep up your determination to be viewed in such a way?

How many? I've answered every argument you've put forth. How many? If I answer this one, what will be the next objection you raise? How many? You pretend to know the answers when you haven't a clue about the question. How many?

Otherwise, you would just provide a link instead of spending all this time writing long, vacuous replies.

The way it works at DU is if you come up with a figure and someone calls bullshit on it because it sounds ridiculous in light of known facts, it is up to you to prove it, not others to disprove it.

I told you why I believed your 67% figure is made up. There's 1,700 VA facilities. 67% of 1,700 is 1,139. There is no way that many facilities are doing this when the MSM has only been able to point to a few (most notably, Phoenix, Atlanta and one in Virginia). Also, studies show VA healthcare has been consistently very popular with vets, and in 2012 the RAND corp found the VA system delivers care as good or better than its private counterparts. See :
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/20/1300760/-Privatizing-VA-health-care-would-be-the-greatest-tragedy-of-all

Or perhaps I should say the one who defines the rules. Let's cover the events so far.

I made a long post putting the events into perspective, you objected to that by questioning my opinion on VA Funding. I replied expounding on the funding issue. You attempted to twist my words out of all shape. I expounded upon it again, and again reiterated that it was a case of widespread criminal fraud.

Notice a pattern here? I make points that you don't bother to respond to. I think under your own definition of rules, you should have admitted that my points were at least reasonable. I mean, I didn't call "bullshit" or anything so vulger, but I am not the self appointed master at arms at DU. Every time I make a long reasoned post, you reply with a snotty and snide comment challenging one item that you think you can win on. You accused me of opposing Democratic Policies instead of giving them my full throated support. (Nice West Wing reference there by the way) I named the other issues in which I being consistent with my principles, oppose any political party.

Then it got personal where you accused me of posting an "anti-Obama" rant. I proved that on this issue, I am closer to President Obama's position than you by quoting from Time Magazine's website President Obama. You never apologized, nor acknowledged this. Why? I don't understand why you, to use your own words, are not now in full throated support of the President getting to the bottom of this criminal fraud?

You are stuck looking like a fool far behind the curve by insisting, after the President said that there were more facilities involved in this scandal, that it was just one facility. You are behind the curve of the Democratic Party by standing on the pedestal you crafted for yourself as self appointed definer and enforcer of the rules since many Democratic Party Elected officials are supportive of the resignation of Secretary Shinseki.

You are rude by failing to apologize and acknowledge your insult about my "anti-Obama" rant. You are a lousy debater, and your positions would see the Democratic Party in the minority of every level of Government for years.

I have told you my conditions for releasing any sources. Yet you won't do anything about it. You just continue making a fool of yourself. I tell you what. I have one source window open right now. A site that is referenced and posted quite often here, that acknowledges problems at more than 60% of the facilities. I'll give you another hint, the article was written on Friday, the day Secretary Shinseki resigned, and the same day the President made his comments.

I'll make one more attempt at reaching a sort of compromise with you. If you apologize for being rude, and for falsely accusing me of an Anti-Obama rant. I'll drop my requirement that you actually do some research to find out how many facilities were involved. I'll post this link. Then I may put you on ignore, since your opinions are backed by nothing but smoke and mirrors and you are woefully uninformed. I will make that decision later. If you don't then I'll hold the link back. Here's your chance, call my "bluff". Apologize and see if I'm telling the truth. If I don't come up with the link you can always edit your apology to say that you knew I was a liar. Of course, you could just edit the apology later anyway, but I would not accuse you of that dishonorable action.

I am not the one who looks like a fool here. Please do put me on ignore so you don't waste my time like this again in the future.

You accuse me of an anti Obama rant when I was on the same page as President Obama?

You accuse me of making things up when I am apparently far more informed than you?

Ladies and Gentlemen, Friends and fellow Liberals. The link is provided and SunSeeker is on ignore (I would encourage you to do so as well but my guess is that you've already decided to do it)

Via the Huffington Post. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/30/va-audit_n_5419745.html?utm_hp_ref=department-of-veterans-affairs

Allow me to quote the relevant parts so that SunSeeker won't have to click the link.

I have no idea what you could find insulting in the pm.

The GOP love spending money on wars. But not on vets broke by those wars. Vets fall into the "taker" category that the GOP would prefer to see just die already.

repukes ignored warnings and allowed the biggest terrorist attack in American history, ignored liberals and intelligent people like Mr. Shinseky who knew better, proceeded with their sickening, senseless wars which deluged the VA with soldiers needing treatment, and now congratulate themselves for "winning" with their usual disgusting politics. Fuck them all!

Everyone here knew that the BFEE had loaded up all these agencies to fail and so what's his name with all his power has had 6 years to do something about this and he just didn't, like everything else. Instead he has been undermining the public schools, enriching the insurance and pharmaceutical companies, harassing protestors who are trying to stop the fall, and raiding medical MJ clinics. If the General had been given the wherewithal to fix it, to publicize the problem it could have been fixed but that is not how this Presidency works at all.

If we can bail out the Ukraine we can fix the VA we can fix the BOIA, the prison system, the justice system. You just cannot do it with funkin slimy bankers and political morons!

Waiting are lots of Democrats, even Independents, people who can successfully run things if they are allowed to do so in bad situations with people at their heels. But these so called Dems just call the doers names and ignore them while the country goes to hell.

I saw a WUMO cartoon this week that showed a waiter begging a diner to eat some suspicious food because "the chef needed to be encouraged" because last week 12 people died of food poisoning and the first thing I thought of was GD at DU and their rah, rah always for the leaders of "our party's" all too public failures. ie "After all no elephant plague ravaged our shores during this administration. Go team". Next post the VA is killing people for quite some time and the system designed to alert was disabled and broken and never fixed but oh well at least we save the elephants.

We have to do better and we need it now.

How anyone could expect him to fix the problems overnight without additional money is beyond me. He really didn't deserve to be fired.

blowback from wrongheaded austerity fervor.

The TeaPubliKlans should have been relentlessly hammered for refusing to properly fund.

There is also some actual fraud involved here that might reasonably be credited to the TeaPubliKlans as directly motivated but isn't at all excusable. They lied about the wait times to line their pockets.