how to handle a crisis or situation. you know. serious stuff. to have some old fool tell me to smile, i would be prettier....

now. it takes moments to process what this man is demanding i do, for his gratification....

as i have been pondering something serious.

wouldnt that make him an asshole?

cause i cannot see it any other way.

is just trying to lighten things up for you. I don't think that there is anything nefarious or evil about it.

it is all in being "animated" "glowing" for the man. he dos not give squat to what i am thinking.

and why would anyone think it appropriate that i respond like a monkey, to a suggestion. this is not about me.

I am an old woman, not an old man, but when I see someone in a line behind me who looks down, or seems to be getting agitated, I try to find a way to get them to smile. Smiling helps mood, or so I am told and that is how it works for me. So....even if the old goat has other motives, just assume that he is just being friendly. Life is so much nicer if you do.

someone down and you may interact to make them feel better. to be thinking, within self and jolted out with a ... smile, is rude.

i constantly interact with people in society. i like it. it is fun. some people, most, want to. but i would never throw out a demand for performance.

to let them know. There is no reason why I have to accept someone's instructions about how I should be holding my face. I don't really see how accepting those instructions will make my life nicer.

Making someone smile and telling them to smile are two different things.

from instructing someone to smile on demand. How would you know the person who's looking miserable hasn't just lost a dear one? Or a job? Or has some other perfectly good reason to be unhappy that she'd rather not share with a stranger?

I don't see it as "instructing" or forcing someone to smile. Next time, just smile and say thanks. If it is not a direct hit on you, just assume that it is a compliment instead of a domination.

that being asked to smile won't help, and could very well make worse.

Really, use your empathy now. If you had just lost a spouse and some oblivious entitled person asked you to give him a smile, wouldn't that make you feel worse?

So, patriarchal objectification of women, and the commensurate assumption that patronizing interactions ("Smile for me, there's a pretty gal!&quot , are not a part of your life experience?

Or, you've been socialized to make excuses for men's sexist behaviors?

Or, perhaps, you're responding from a lifetime of being told you're never going to garner male approval unless you make excuses for their bad behavior ("Boys will be boys!&quot ?

In case it's not clear, I strongly disagree with your excusing this type of objectifying behavior. If a woman takes issue with such presumptuous male behaviors, she doesn't need some other woman condescendingly dismissing or belittling her reaction. That's how your post strikes me.

a comment is just a comment. I am not sure I can always tell if a man is being an ass about it or just trying to be nice. See post #5 for my explanation.

cause you would be prettier.

i do thank you for your comments. cause it has streamlined my opinion.

since you don't know.

It inevitably comes from creepy men with creepy, loser auras. The type I've seen hanging out at the back stretch at the race track. They come across as losers trying to make you to perform for them. There is nothing in their behavior that suggests they have any concern about anybody other than themselves.

And it is disgusting to have to be subjected to. I can usually tell when someone is just trying to find a way to be friendly, and when they are being creepy. I am just saying that I do get a lot of old farts who seem to be starved for someone to be nice to them, and I am not sure they qualify as assholes. The real assholes are blatant, at least that is the way I see it.

Do women owe smiles to the world that men don't owe?

and I am just guessing here, men do not know how to be friendly without tactics that some may find creepy. We know that they are raised to act and react differently to many thinks. This is no excuse for the real idiots, but I think that many men have a harder time relating in a caring way.

As I mentioned to Seabeyond, below, it may be "White Knight" behavior. Many men feel an outright duty to rescue a "damsel in distress." Because many men are trained to please women, to give women what they want, and to fix problems when they arise, they might feel the need to "create happiness" in women they encounter whom they sense are unhappy. Smiling, of course, releases dopamine and, quite literally, creates happiness.

The question isn't whether women owe the world smiles. In fact, you ask a great question when you ask why the reverse behavior (women demanding smiles from men) doesn't occur as often (or at all). Why is it that women don't feel the same duty or obligation to make men happy?



-Laelth

to produce one might yield something very different, unfortunately.

And when a stranger sees a person looking sad, for all s/he knows the person might have a very natural reason for feeling sad, which a forced smile won't help. Like a death in the family, for example.

Anyone who thinks about trying to extract a smile should consider the possibility that the frowner has just lost a loved one. Would it still be okay to tell her she'd look prettier if she just smiled?

Of course, there is also that implicit judgment thing going on . . . .

I don't know that the behavior we're describing will ever be "OK" in all circumstances. I just wanted to offer up the possibility that the motives of the people who tell others to smile aren't always bad or necessarily bad.

That said, we all could probably benefit from being more thoughtful in our interactions with others. I don't deny that people are sometimes sad, and that's OK. Lots of people don't like being "cheered up." I can definitely see how this kind of attention might, in many circumstances, be unwanted.

In my experience, some mack daddies just get in the habit of being mack daddies when they're young, and, even after they are long past their physical prime, they don't, won't, or can't shake the habit. For many of them, "macking" is the only way they know how to relate with women who are strangers to them, but they still want that interaction with new women, so they mack away whenever they get the chance. I am curious to know your reaction to this observation.

-Laelth

I think most of the time most of the men who do this don't have bad intentions and are certainly not trying to make the woman uncomfortable. And maybe they're trying to fix things, and this is all they can think of.

Unfortunately, it makes many women uncomfortable -- and it can touch a raw wound in a grieving woman -- so it isn't worth taking the chance.

The men who think they're wise enough to know which strange women might want this attention are fooling themselves.

Many men are trained (or biologically driven) to please women, to make them happy (if they can), to give them what they want, and to fix problems when they arise. Why assume nefarious motives like self-gratification? Why not assume "White Knight" behavior--i.e. that someone is trying to make you happy because they see you as a "damsel in distress?"

That might be equally offensive, in a different way, but, at the very least, the motives are less nefarious.



-Laelth

old geezer states it is for his gratification, using the woman and consoles himself saying it is for her. regardless of women telling him we do not like it. it is rude. it is stepping over the lines. he refuses to even acknowledge it. shame point about not being a nice, happy, reasonable person. and moves on. he will continue. cause he wants to.

i get the men fix, please thing. but even that is fraught with self interest. makes it non beneficial/shallow/superficial.

I'm not very tall, and when some old bastard would stick his face into my space and say (sometimes growl or yell), "Smile!" it seemed threatening to me. What would he do to me if I didn't?
Doesn't happen to me so much now that I'm old and fat (and not living in Utah), but it was pure hell in my 20s and 30s.

-Laelth

When it has happened to me I pretty much just smile, have no reason to get pissed about it or to go into a deep thought process that entails finding a way to make it more than it really probably is... And the times I have in fact done that I have never wanted anything more out of it than to see a smile... no idea whatsoever that I am attempting to bend someone to my will or force anyone to do anything they don't want to...

Actually I feel a little sorry for anyone that needs to find something more in as simple a process as someone attempting to be friendly..

I agree with you, I also feel sorry for people who jump to conclusions about motives.

With that said, I think that I know the intent of this post is not the friendly types....it is the creepy lechers.

smile. They seem unaware of the fact that it isn't a friendly act to require a stranger to slap an expression on her face that she isn't feeling for the enjoyment of someone that she doesn't know.

y events sorry to hear that you are so judgmental but won't stop me from being friendly... It is indeed a "friendly act" whether you thinks so or not is really immaterial.

Making someone smile is a friendly act. Telling them to smile is obnoxious.

Or telling a joke on yourself.

But it's better not to be friendly by telling women you don't know that they should smile.

It's definitely not friendly when you've learned that many women find this instruction to be intrusive and annoying.

Actually I very rarely do that really but I do not think of it as unfriendly... I usually try to just make friendly conversation

can be unintentionally annoying or even hurtful, depending on the circumstances.

you?

regardless of how many women and girls repeatedly say stop, you insist it is your right to make this demand on women and girls, for your entertainment. it is an act for you.

that could be nothing but dominating and controlling of complete strangers.

do you tell strange men to smile. out of hte blue. they are minding their own business. and you tell them to smile?

hardly

Suggesting you smile was nothing more than a friendly icebreaker-type thing to say to someone who may have looked sad to him. Nothing more.

Or a parent? Or a job? And doesn't want to discuss personal business with a stranger?

And I know you mean well, but when you say, "And the times I have in fact done that I have never wanted anything more out of it than to see a smile."

Why should someone you don't know who is unhappy for some reason be expected to force a smile because it's something you want?

or how they're doing as part of casual conversation, in a check-out line or wherever? What if you're saying that to someone who has just lost a child, etc. etc.

Which you don't seem to understand some men actually do.

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/13/smile_baby_the_words_no_woman_wants_to_hear/

by prying into how I'm doing is worse than someone asking you to smile during your serious issues? If you're going to be offended by the nerve of strangers not knowing some terrible thing going on for you, then be offended when anyone does it, not just men. Because that just looks like GD flamebait to me.

I asked if women do that to men, and I haven't gotten a positive answer to that yet. Are you saying this happens to you? If so, then you should understand how unhelpful it is to hear that from a stranger.

And you realize the person saying it really doesn't care, it's just a reflex or something their job forces them to say. People don't generally holler at strangers with "have a nice day" although, lol, maybe they should!

Or more chance that that would actually be the case and i like to think that with my advanced years experience i have a little bit of ability to be able to sense something deeper than normal sadness, that part may not be right but i wil continue to take my chances.. hopefully I won't run into you or any other sourpusses and try it.. that would be sad indeed..

because if your request made someone's day just a little bit worse, she'd be very unlikely to tell you so.

Your advanced years haven't given you the wisdom you think.

the instruction, she is simply a sourpuss.

There are many women here saying, "Uh, no. We don't like this." But that is not going to stop you. Because anyone who doesn't like it is just a sourpuss. Because regardless of what all these women are saying to you, you know that women really like it.

Often in these threads, women talk about the men who give them unwanted attention. They describe how, when they don't respond the way the man wants, often the man will insult them. Do you see any parallels here? Admittedly "sourpuss" is a very mild insult, but it is an insult nonetheless.

you have with men, this really isnt a way to get a good discussion started. I sympathize with women and would like to see men change their behavior, but I see OP's like this as counter productive.

notwithstanding.

If you didn't understand the purpose of posting this, rather than telling the poster that she is being counter productive, maybe you could have just asked and left it at that.

Or maybe not.

If you sympathize with women who would like to see men change their behavior, then maybe you could...

Or maybe not.

and girls.

So I was wondering if it happened to men, too.

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/13/smile_baby_the_words_no_woman_wants_to_hear/

Yesterday, I missed a train and I was frustrated, hot and tired. A man standing in the station decided it was a good time to pass his hand along my arm as I ran by and whisper, “You’d be even prettier if you smiled.” Here’s the thing about “Smile, baby,” the more commonly uttered variant of the same sentiment: No woman wants to hear it.

That is a whole lot more intrusive than someone just saying to you "smile". That is creepy beyond belief.....but it is the touching your arm and the whisper that are completely disgusting. You have every reason to be pissed about that action.

I just dont agree that addressing your post to all men is the best way to make your case. How can a man answer your questions? I dont approve of this behavior but I dont know how to answer your questions.

I have been told to smile. If I think of it I tell them that I am smiling.

If they told me I was handsome. I would be concerned about their optical needs.

Didn't we just do a whole major thread on this same subject about a week ago.

It's deja vu all over again.

Instruct? Never saw it that way, but then I don't see a suggestion of "Hey, smile." (assuming that's what it is) as being such as I don't enter the world with a massive chip on my shoulder. Every interaction is what it is.

If someone was trying to lift my spirits if I looked less than thrilled by suggesting a smile (there IS some pretty good science behind that, just an FYI) then I would probably think that was nice. And that answer is regardless of her age, attractiveness to me or if it was a gay man, or a gay woman, or a little kid, or a buddhist monk, or a dog, or Siri on my iPhone.

That said, I don't live my life subject with the same obvious challenges experienced by women when the ugly intent might be percieved or exist as the intent to harm or demean by some miscreant.

Why?

might have a very good reason for looking unhappy -- that she doesn't want to discuss with a stranger in public?

I was once told to smile during a period when one of my children had life-threatening health issues. But I had to go about my days regardless. Did it help me to have a stranger interrupt my thoughts to tell me to smile?

I guess I misread the intent of your OP.

I guess I'm also thankful that this particular person didn't "instruct" you to "have a nice day" that dumb bastard!

and you ignored what I said completely.

I can see that empathy isn't your strong point. Never mind.

Empathy IS my strong point. You may need to look up what that is.

about being told to smile by a stranger while I was thinking about a very ill child?

"38. I can see that empathy isn't your strong point. Never mind. n/t"

Having not been there, and not been the "stranger" I don't know his intent or context, nor if he was "instructing" you to smile.

Sometimes, just sometimes, things like "smile" or "have a nice day" or "you'll do better next time" or "stay safe" or the like aren't demands.

Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

With empathy, some use generic terms, like "smile"...maybe. Again, not there.

And btw, whatever this issue is/was with this ill child, I'm sorry if I touched a nerve in this discussion. I truly am.

When a woman (it's almost always a woman) is asked by a man to ignore her feelings and produce a smile, it can just make her feel worse. And any man who makes a practice of this, thinking he's making women happier, might actually be making a significant number of them feel worse. But they're too polite or self-restrained to let the men know.

I just did, so at least a few men won't be able to say they had no idea that these requests to smile could be intrusive and unhelpful -- even painful.

To me, intent is the point. Hence my pause at the word "instruction" this whole time. That said, I've not walked in your shoes, so I won't attempt to make heads nor tails of this as I don't think I can. I don't understand that someone would tell someone to smile for their own pleasure, I honestly don't. Per your OP, my answer is as it was before, if someone (attractive or otherwise) said to me, "smile" I wouldn't take it for anything further than "have a nice day" or anything else. Maybe it's lost in translation or there's a qualifier I'm not seeing.

But that's me, not you.

At any rate, have a nice evening. Not because of how it might please me, but because I hope that as a fellow human and sentient being, you lack suffering.

And my best wishes to you also.

Or there's s "baby" thrown in there.
Happened a couple times a day when I was visiting my dying Dad in the hospital. Even if it was just an admonishment to "Smile" it felt pretty intrusive and unwelcome.

I don't know if a lot of DUers know how much more common this is in crowded and lower income neighborhoods but it certainly is. I see it very frequently some places, but it more upscale neighborhoods it doesn't happen much at all. Definitely more of an issue where you're already perceived as vulnerable or lower status already. I can believe it when some who grew up in suburban middle class mall culture don't understand. Not sure why they can't empathize though.

I work in hotel service; so, we have to be nice, when every ounce of me is wanting to tell the old geezer to "f@(k off". Smile, your so pretty. Let me see if I can get a laugh... And then later, I had to walk out from my desk outside, he's driving by, stops and is doing a slow, creepy roll by checking me out, and says, "oh, don't make me have to stop and get out to flirt with your some more"...

Now, the dude is 70yrs old. "Mad Men" was probably how he dealt with women on a job his entire life. On top of that, I'm in customer service, even trying to say nicely, as I've done in the past, "my name is "glowing", men will get upset that I have asked them to use my name rather than sweetheart or honey (my least fav of the bunch - even my husband doesn't say that one - we normally use Babe or I'll say Daddy when I'm talking with my son or we use each other's names). So, this old geezer would definitely take offense to me calling him out on asking him to use the name my Momma gave me, rather than any of those "endearment terms that really don't belong to you to call me.

And it's not just old men. There are men of all age who do this; even little piss ants who are younger than my 35 yrs of age. Sometimes, they are hitting on me (while seeing my wedding ring on my finger and all), other men just call all women some "endearment term" regardless of who the woman is, and others will do it as a control item, as in "sweetheart, I think you can let me into the pool" (even when it's closed)... Or if there is a dispute over an issue with the hotel, the room, the rate, etc, they will use it like they are putting me in my place and that their big, bad manly ass is going to best me (even when they are dead wrong or being completely unreasonable and an asshole).

And the times that I have addressed men who do this "endearment call out", and are 55 and younger, who I try to correct politely by saying my name is... Will turn on a dime and say, damn why are YOU so angry, why are YOU being a bitch... Or why can't you take a compliment on "smiling to look prettier"... AND my least favorite, "your husband is one lucky man, I hope he appreciates you like I would". Seriously, it's none of your business how my husband and I are living our lives!

Thankfully, I've made it clear to my husband that this type of behavior towards women is absolute BS and isn't appreciated one bit; unless it's a setting where 2 have the equal opportunity to become flirtatious with one another. He's a southern gentleman, which means he's grown up hearing countless southern windbag men address all women with honey's and sweethearts, etc.

When we were younger and newly married, he happened to address a young woman working at the drive thru window as sweetie one day; in front of both myself and his son. I said, "oh, no you did not just call her sweetie at the same time you were asking for extra free sauce and in front of your wife and especially your SON. He tries to tell me she likes it; women like it when you say nice things like that. And I said no, she's smiling because she's working and she can't really say anything to you, but she does have a name tag on if you think you should call her anything. She's probably not even an adult, and your boneheaded ass just addressed her as sweetie making her feel like she's smaller, plus making you look like a complete jackass to call her sweetie right in front of your own family.

I knew he had been raised in the south and shown by many dumb assed self-entitled blow hards, to address women in this manner. BUT women really don't like it when you basically "cat call" them. It's totally disrespectful.. And you are doing it in front of your son who is learning by your example. The real knock to the head and kick to the gut about how women feel came when I said, this is the shit that happens to me ALL the time. Would you really like it if you were standing around me at work and heard random idiots call me their sweetie, "smile, your too pretty not to", and call me the complete opposite "bitch" if I don't act as their stringed puppet. Would you want a daughter to be treated that way or your mother or your sister?

Women really don't like it. If it's a random strange woman, address them as Ma'am or Miss or Ms or try and find their real name. If it's someone you know more personally, then perhaps, they would like for you to use an endearing term for them, as in the older Hostess lady that you've been cutting up with for years... That's a different sort of pre-determined ok name that she likes to hear from you and likewise calls you an endearing term in return, but for certain a someone you just hired new, could charge you with sexual harassment for that crap.

HOW do I or countless women who work in customer service jobs or direct sales to the public (like a cashier, deli slicer, working in retail, working as a nurse, working at a hotel, waiting on tables, etc), get reprieve from having to take the sexual harassment daily in fear of a "complaint" that could lose you your job. There should be some sort of law created to keep women from having to endure the constant streamline of cat calls, "endearment names", and remarks on one's body either subtly thru exclaiming how lucky someone's man is to straight up "damn girl, you be looking fine" or "smile for me" or "why don't you do a spin for me so I can see if the backside looks as good as the front side".

Thankfully, my husband has learned and changed his manners to be more respectful and if he has a "damn, that looks good" idea, to keep it buried inside his brain. AND my son is being taught to respect women properly... None of this southern BS of sweetie crap. It's ma'am or Ms just like men are Sir! I only wish we had laws to protect women from this misogynist crap and parents who teach their children that you don't address women like they are something to own! And that women were taught that (and backed up by society) they are not on this planet to please men. Cat calls are not the types of things you should be looking for to affirm your self worth. That you don't need to look for a man's approval for who you are! That you shouldn't feel the need to dress to the 9's, completed with 6 inch platform heels to go out for the night (unless you feel like putting on a little black dress and 6 inch platform shoes because you enjoy to dress in this fashion - and you may just be a masochist as well?) And as much as I talk a big game, I know, I as a woman, have fallen prey to society's ideas of beauty and asking if I look good before heading out for an evening. Probably because of business of working, being a Mom, being a wife, and general business of life, these "beauty" issues have become less and less important to my life and it's happiness. If my husband ends up being a dumbass and trolling for a mid-life crisis half his age in a few more years, it's not due to something that is wrong with me! It's his issues of his own life that he's not handling; not mine!

It's still an issue, though, with having to deal with it at work... Knowing that if I don't act friendly and nice, that an online complaint will e issues about how horrible the staff member named "glowing" was to them... All because I asked them to use my name or plant a fake "smile for me", sneer across my face. Or have to pretend that saying my husband is a lucky man (like my husband owns me or something) is a nice compliment... And no, even if my husband doesn't know how "lucky" he is to have me, I'm not interested in you in the slightest!

Sorry, this was soooo long. Just the topic pisses me off to have to endure... That I work in an environment where I have to take the constant harassment. That women aren't protected from this BS (and how could we possibly get men to understand or feel like we are living in a modern world when women still make less money, "pink jobs" take so much less home in base pay and income, and men are still making rules about women's health care and whether they can get birth control or an abortion).

A friend of mine in her fifties just left an executive job because of serious sexual harassment, and now she's having to contemplate whether it would be worthwhile to sue, or whether it will ruin the rest of her career.

"Trouble maker"... Especially in today's world where we have sexual harassment laws and courses on the job... Many don't think that anyone could possibly be sexually harassing anyone like years past when Anita Hill was testifying... So, they look at her as a trouble maker or someone who would be out to get the company for one wrong perceived look or overhear inappropriate joke...

And these days, for some reason, white men seem to feel they are under attack and that they are losing out to minorities or women... Their priveleged asses are being called out in society, and they don't like it. They join Facebook pages devoted to complaining about women. They even have a group on this msg board; a place where it's supposed to be liberal and progressive. I suppose, power never gives itself up without a fight.

Your friend is 50, and if it was conceivable that she could have retired comfortably from this job in another 15 yrs; I say take them to the woodshed... I only hope that she kept a detailed journal of dates and even perhaps times of the discrimination and who it was that was making the work environment so toxic and hostile. That goes a long way in a court situation and with a jury because the documentation is thourough and she's not having to "remember" various details at different times and how it made her feel.

Like on 6/6/2013, such and such cornered me in the copy room and grabbed my butt.. I escaped from the persons grasp only when another employee walked in... I spent the rest of the day hiding in my office and skipped down to the parking garage with 3 other co-workers to avoid any further alone time... I spent the rest of the night crying and wanting to quit , but needing my job to pay for my daughters college tuition and the mortgages ...

Anyone being harassed or in a crummy type of job needs to keep a detailed journal so they have dates, names, feeling at the time of incident... And some of these items, depending on how far it gets, could be used for actual criminal investigations. Intimidating and threatening someone is against the law.

And my friend has documentation, including emails from the offender.

But she has to decide whether she wants to concentrate on a new venture or go forward with a case.

If it happened to her, it's probably happened to others in the past and will happen to someone in the future.. Maybe she can look up women who have quit from the company... Make a frontal stance!

So that information would probably be hard to obtain.

But you're right -- she's certainly not the first.

There are certain jobs where women are required to take that shit. Where if they don't take it, as you say so well:

golfers were dining and then asked in all seriousness if I would go to their hotel ro and strip for them for $600... That had to be one of the lowest nights at having a job "serving" in a job.... And that was only half way thru their dinner where they continues to drink and try grabbing at me as I'd walk by with some item or such... I finally had to get the big, male chef from the back to come out and tell them to back the fuck off!

For a long time after I worked there, I just didn't think about the fact that what happened every night to so many of the women serving there could be legally defined as molestation. But if you wanted to pay the bills, you just had to get through.

Dudes: I'm going to give you some unsolicited advice about life. Take it or don't, but you need to hear it. Women who are at work or otherwise can't tell you to leave them alone should be off limits, because it's an uneven playing field. If you want to hit on a woman have the decency to do it when she has the option of telling you to get lost.

kid that shot up a bunch of people in CA the other week... Not all of them go to such extremes, but they do seem to feel entitled to hit on or say inappropriate things... And any sort of rejection, even in a polite manner as you can do, they get mad and hostile.

Oh, and if I hear one more male say that they Re a good guy.. Why is some chick a meathead like such and such, I'd like to scream. If you are a "good guy", then you don't need to tell women that they are OR insult their decision to be with a different guy than yourself. Women aren't property to be owned.

...I won't say any more than "hello" to a woman I don't know...if that!

PEACE!

heard of anyone doing that in RL tell some random person to smile. If someone who I'm not familiar with asked me to randomly smile out of the blue, I'd be like

WTF is pretty much how most women feel when strangers ask them to smile.

And if they did, I wouldn't give a shit whether they were male or female, I'd tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.

And you will find yourself unemployed ... Because then they complain that you are being rude and unfriendly.

I've got the greatest admiration for those who work in hospitality and customer service coz of the shit they have to put up with. With my experience, I was thinking more of strangers on the street, in pubs, that sort of thing. Though I have been sexually harassed at work, but it was someone I knew, and it was worse than asking me to smile

I used to be told I had two main facial expressions at work; 1.Smiley Face and 2.Fuck, I'm Bored!

I've got a family issue with my son -- one that would have destroyed me years ago if I had been a weaker-spirited person.

Often. I have been through years or ups and downs dealing with very sick family (which was expected to fall to me, since I was the only daughter) and had to suck it up and keep a happy face at work, and put on one frequently to be a tolerable company often to keep a social life going. If I didn't break down after the first time my brother drank drain cleaner, or my Dad did not recognize me, or my Mom smeared shit all over herself for fun, I'd be weaker person. I'd be a zombie cut off from my feelings, and probably drowning in drugs or booze because I felt the need to keep it sweet and light all the time. It's not a fair or realistic expectation to have for passersby. Especially when you're told you'd be prettier or called baby. Especially when you get called bitch or worse for any retort at all.
Last October, I got an unexpected call a dear friend had passed on, just as I was walking in Times Square. I was shocked and obviously distraught. Trying to figure out of I should cancel with a friend or if I could handle it and not cry. A pretzel vendor asked if I was okay, if he could help. That's pretty much the opposite of "Smile, baby" I had just gotten a half a block later. Huge difference.
I think a lot of it comes down to how much you're around masses of other people. If it was suburbia or the country, I'd be in my car alone, and these kinds of interactions, good and bad would be much rarer. Unfortunately I spent some of my most depressing times on NY subways- after keeping a strong and happy face for hours for those I loved the last thing I needed to hear was I should do the same for young dudes on the subway, because I'm too cute.

seems to work well for me. My husband has told me many times how much I've taught him with my positivity & how it changed him for the better. He mentioned it just a few days ago to our son as we were talking to him on the phone about his wanting to come home, which is not possible at this time due to his illness. He has been under long-term care since the first week of December 2013.

What helps me compartmentalize is that I've never been comfortable about being regarded as a victim. My road in life wasn't an easy one in my younger years, but those bumps & potholes made me a strong person, let me tell you. What I mean by "strong" is not sweating the small stuff -- picking out & choosing my battles so that when I do complain about something, those who know me will take it seriously.

"Smile, baby" is not going to raise my dander. Life is too short for focusing on such small matters; especially when the intent is out of friendliness. Making long lists of things with which to be annoyed will lead to a huge chip on one's shoulder. I want to be better than that.

Your post makes me want to reach out to you, bettyellen, but because of what happened to another DUer who reached out in the mental health forum two years ago, I feel that it wouldn't be wise to do so. Overall, I can tell you that positive thinking can be self-taught & it makes life so much happier & easier to bear. I wish you the very best.

The smile baby- and worse has anything to do with making me happier. It's not ever going to ruin my day. At times some pornographic suggestions or threats (which are related to this phenomenon) have sure out a dent in my good mood.

My family's trials are long past , and things are good - but the expectations I'd bear the brunt of caregiving and managing them wasn't easy.
We all hid our emotions most of the time because having a schizophrenic in the family will magnify fears of appearing too emotional. Strangers on the six train saw me distraught more than my loved ones ever did. I didn't appreciate being asked to smile on top of being asked to handle everything - all because I was a woman. That was asking too much, and felt like an intrusion. Why the hell would I need to worry about not keeping it light for total strangers when I was already doing that for everyone else I knew?

But brothers got in the habit of pretending nothing was happening, and avoiding all of it. They could have used an outlet. They're both alcoholics, and it's messy. So I think comparatively speaking I turned out okay.

I hope your son is on the mend, and will be coming home soon. That's gotta be hard.

Or mostly upscale neighborhoods?
I think that makes a huge difference.
I've experienced it a lot in NY, particularly the Bronx but also dicier parts of Manhattan. But never on Park or Fifth Avenue, or in the suburbs for that matter.
A lot of it is about perceived status / vulnerability.
I'm curious if it's just less common overall in Australia.

I'm in a reasonably small city by US standards, and it's affluent and well-educated. It's not immune to to nasty stuff. When I was younger, there's this street machine festival thing that happens here yearly and I only went once to the parade coz dickheads yelling at me and every other woman 'show us yer tits!' just grossed me out so much. So maybe it's just a location/culture thing. Or I could have just been lucky

And that seems to bother men sometimes.

But overall it's more of an epidemic thing in poorer neighborhoods from my experience.
When I'd hang out with friends in the projects I was kind of amazed at the endless cat calls and nasty critiques from dudes on the paddle ball courts and playgrounds. You should wear this, do this, get me that, or buy some tits like she did. That was pretty constant, and directed at young teens mostly. The guys doing it were mostly living in poverty and needed to lord it over someone. As a very white outsider, I was exempt from the worst of it, but just being in an environment where it was normal sucked.
The seemingly toughest girls at school were dealing with that shit from their peers 24/7, and pushing back was rare and had its consequences. Unless these girls were treated respectfully by family and teachers, which was not always the case, they weren't getting any respect from anyone. It was very troubling to see what kind of crap they had to put up with to get along.

And I'm a bubbly sort of person, the only times I have a serious face on is when I'm figuring something complicated out or what not... So, telling me to smile is just stupid... I already greeted you with a hello and a smile.

just to say this. If being instructed to smile by strange men was my main worry, I'd be in a much better place. I am in my &&%%$$$ fifties, and not only do I receive that order, but others of a far more lecherous vein. I am in my fifties. Just thought I'd restate that for others to contemplate. When I was in my thirties, the "instructions" were much more explicit.

because I already know I should smile more.

... by any person who wasn't standing behind a camera.

That said, I think it's a mistake to assume nefarious motives behind this behavior. As I mentioned in a couple of posts above, I would guess that this behavior is primarily "White Knight" behavior--motivated by a desire to do what many men have been well-trained to do (rescue a "damsel in distress," fix problems, make women happy, give women what they want). Many men are trained (or biologically-driven, or both) to do these things. Is that so terrible? And why, I ask, are women not trained (or biologically-driven) to do the same for men?

It's not that I think this behavior is "nice," per se. Nor do I think I would really want it for myself. I can easily see how it would get irritating quickly, but I work in tort law (amongst other things), and tort law says that there's no claim unless there's been a legally-recognized injury. If someone walks up to you with a baseball bat and hits you, you've been injured (a battery). Then you have a real claim, but when some stranger tells you to smile, that's not a legally-recognized injury unless it's an assault (somebody with a knife holds it to your neck and demands that you smile or else suffer a battery--a cut to your body), and even then you'd need medical proof that the fear created by the assault caused an injury--hair falling out, various trips to a psychiatrist, etc.

If being "ordered" to smile is an injury, we're in bad shape. People need thicker skins. More severe injuries are diminished when we recognize "being ordered to smile" as an injury. Besides which, the motives of these potential tortfeasors, the ones who tell you to smile, are almost universally good. They might get some self-gratification out of making the world a happier place, but the primary motive, as I speculate above, is to please the woman in question and to make her happy (or, at least, happier than she was before the encounter). Seriously. What's so bad about that?

btw, I found this thread both provocative and informative. Thank you. Mrs. Laelth and I discussed it at some length. More on that later, perhaps.

-Laelth

Or a "Smile baby". By people walking past you. A rare few times I felt it was actually about making me feel better. Once or twice, but mostly it's about how decorative I would be if only I weren't upset by someone dying.

I am inclined to believe that something else is going on.

Out of curiosity, Mrs. Laelth says that on the occasions that this has happened to her, it's usually been done by a man who was slightly or considerably older than she. Has that been your experience?

-Laelth

In the Bronx, it was very very common- as was adding on either "Baby" or "Mommy" in better areas of Manhattan- never. In very crowded areas of Manhattan though, where anonymity is guaranteed, the suggestions would more frequently veer towards the pornographic or threatening.

Or, a similar situation, anyway. She abruptly and effectively cowed a loud-mouthed and vulgar construction worker who was making lewd suggestions to her. She called his bluff.

It's interesting to me that your experience indicates some relation to class. I wonder if what we're describing isn't display behavior for other men (one man who feels less than adequate demeans and objectifies a woman to prove to other men in his group that he's truly "manly" and worthy of membership in the group)?

Of course, that doesn't explain the lone guy in the check-out line, but it would explain the behavior in a group setting.



Thanks for the response.

-Laelth

Common in parks and playgrounds among kids (yes prepubescent) and teens.
But I'd say the bulk of it from adult men was one on one.
Especially if it was creepy. Maybe the behavior is just ingrained by then?

And it would rarely happen if you were with someone else, never if with a guy.
The way I figure it, the Bronx guys didn't have any targets that they saw as status than them - except for women.

As I said earlier, I think you are onto something with your white knight syndrome. It's a theory I first read about in Deborah Tannen's book YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND.

The thing that makes me wonder if this is the only thing that's going on is that many of the respondents here are still resistant to the idea that they shouldn't be doing this -- even when numerous women agree that it's not helpful, despite the best of men's intentions. I'd been hoping that when men realized the problem (that they might be telling a grieving mother to smile; or that the woman doesn't want to be told what to do to look prettier; or simply that it feels intrusive and annoying) that they'd decide to cease and desist. Just in case. But that wasn't what happened. If this is really the white knight syndrome, then it often seems to be accompanied by the I-know-what's-best-for-you syndrome.

I mentioned it in a reply to you above.

I agree that if the behavior we're describing is, in fact, White Knight behavior, then it's doused in a lot of patronizing and potentially-demeaning "I-know-what's-best-for-you." That's not necessarily a terrible thing (as I do exactly that for a living), but the people I advise are actually asking for the service. It might be offensive to people who weren't volunteering for it, and it would be downright rude to someone who flatly rejected the offer.

-Laelth

So, that should make you realize it is treating women like children in a certain way. We ll know better than to expect it from random men or teenage boys.

... and that this is primarily (or exclusively) something men do to women (of various ages), why is that? Do you have a theory?

Thanks for the response.

-Laelth

And I think some guys have different ways to do that to each other also. But with women, some guys act like life is a beauty pageant and they're there to judge every woman they see. It's kind of bizarre.

When I encounter people on the street or elsewhere in public, if our eyes meet, I just smile and say "Hi," as I keep walking. Unless, of course, we both are walking dogs. In that case, the dogs always have to exchange greetings, so there's usually a conversation about dogs.

All of my interactions with strangers on the street depends on whether or not there is eye contact, and generally is merely a polite greeting in passing. Any further conversation would have to be initiated by the other person, since I have no wish to delay or inconvenience anyone on their way.

Exchanging smiles, nods, waves and greetings is a common thing where I live. Actually wherever I have lived, it has been much the same.

Decades ago, in the early 1980s, I was having trouble in my self-employed career and was sometimes depressed about that. What I did was to leave my desk, drive up to the local shopping center, and go into a store to do something like buy a candy bar or something else. Since I've always tried to be friendly and smile when I interact with people, my habit of doing that always managed to cheer me up a little. It's hard to be depressed when you are exchanging a friendly greeting with someone, even if it is the cashier at a local store.

Making an effort to be polite and friendly is good for you and everyone around you, I think. I learned that from my mother, who always had a pleasant greeting for anyone she encountered.

are much better ways of being "friendly" than telling a woman to smile for you. I also try to be friendly in my daily rounds. But I wouldn't tell a stranger to smile.

them what to do. I have no right to tell someone what to do. Only in an emergency when telling someone what to do might protect them from harm would I do that.

But I'm always happy to greet a stranger I encounter and offer a smile and a hello.

and that was actually nice. Supportive and unintrusive isn't that difficult.

If someone does not like that I look unhappy, the answer is not to get me to put on a false face but to try and help me be happy.