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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsColleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition, bankrupt generations, and
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/08/colleges_are_full_of_it_behind_the_three_decade_scheme_to_raise_tuition_bankrupt_generations_and_hypnotize_the_media/Colleges are full of it: Behind the three-decade scheme to raise tuition, bankrupt generations, and hypnotize the media
Rodney Dangerfield in "Back to School"
The price of a year at college has increased by more than 1,200 percent over the last 30 years, far outpacing any other price the government tracks: food, housing, cars, gasoline, TVs, you name it. Tuition has increased at a rate double that of medical care, usually considered the most expensive of human necessities. It has outstripped any reasonable expectation people might have had for investments over the period. And, as we all know, it has crushed a generation of college grads with debt. Today, thanks to those enormous tuition prices, young Americans routinely start adult life with a burden unknown to any previous cohort and whose ruinous effects we can only guess at.
On the assumption that anyone in that generation still has a taste for irony, I offer the following quotation on the subject, drawn from one of the earliest news stories about the problem of soaring tuition. The newspaper was the Washington Post; the speaker was an assistant dean at a college that had just announced a tuition hike of 19 percent; and the question before him was how much farther tuition increases could go. Maybe all of a sudden this bubble is going to burst, he was quoted as saying. How much will the public take?
Oh, we would take quite a lot, as it happened. It was 1981 when the assistant dean worried in that mannerthe very first year of what was once called the tuition spiral, when higher ed prices got the attention of the media by outpacing inflation by a factor of two or three. There was something shocking about this development; tuition hadnt gone up like that during the 1970s, even though that was the heyday of ascending consumer prices.
Yet at that point, the tuition spiral had more than three decades to goindeed, it is still twisting upward today. But the way we talk about this slow-motion disaster has changed little over the years. Ever since the spiral began, commentators have been marveling at how far its gone and wondering how much farther it has yet to runthe trend cant continue, they say every few years. They ask when the families and politicians of America are finally going to get off their knees and do something about it.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)where everyone believes they MUST go to college to succeed. being over THAT barrel has caused people to charge blindly into crushing debt to obtain a degree that guarantees nothing. and the schools? they essentially have a captive customer base.
sP
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)they should at least major in a subject that is able to make a decent life or at least get a job out of it. Too many times, I hear the adults go to college at 18, take a major in Sociology with 80,000 in debt and wonder why they can't get a job at 22. High School counselors are horrible in my opinion. They need to have classes on what majors are beneficial for making a great life for the 18 year olds.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)be a plumber... it might take you a while to get there, but you'll always be in demand.
i think the problem stems from the fact that we are asking people to make HUGE financial decisions when many of them haven't ever even had to balance a checkbook. and we are asking them to make decisions about their education and the path their lives will take before they have been responsible for themselves. few people can really make wise decisions at that point.
i had to go to work for almost two years to save money to START school and then had to work through it. i earned small scholarships that helped, but most of the money came from my own pocket. this lead me to make decisions based on what i felt my future earnings would be... and i went to a less expensive school because of it. i was also fortunate that i had good counsel along the way... and some tough love to tell me 'that ain't gonna put a roof over your head.'
sP
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I am not being glib but serious. I think the way you earned your degree would or should be the way many students should. Again high schools are at fault for bragging about their percentage of students going directly to college. Notice they never brag about number who graduate. I think taking the elitist part out of college would be a nice start. I remember when I was graduating in 1987, the teachers would ask us where we were going to college as opposed to asking what we are going to do next year. Some students were going to work directly after high school graduation and the teachers look at them like they were from Mars and if you say the military....oh boy...lol. Anyway, nothing says you have to graduate from college at 22 and in fact I think if we emphasize total life instead of just going to college as success we might be better off. I wish I would have traveled a bit after high school (had zero money but there is alway a way....camp, stay with relatives whatever). Since we are getting married later in life, I think that changing the status quo of getting a degree at 22 when we have don't know what we want to do for the next 50 years would be helpful overall.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)are the primary reasons i didn't make some very foolish decisions. those big colleges looked like exactly what i wanted... and at the time they WERE what i wanted. but i was reminded to look forward... beyond the next three or four years and ask my self what i wanted THEN... and that simple piece of advice made all the difference.
i hope my children will ask me about their plans and listen to advice i will offer. it has come down from WAY back and has proven to be solid. i wouldn't be where i am without it.
sP
erpowers
(9,350 posts)More and more I am leaning toward the idea that all American high school students, unless they are certain they know what they want to do in the future, should take a gap year. I do not believe it is something that should be forced on the students, but I think it should be encouraged.
erpowers
(9,350 posts)I do slightly agree with you that high school counselors need to do a better job. They need to take the time to find out what kids want to do and then help those kids figure out what they need to do in order to accomplish their goals. For both those kids that seem to know what they want to do and those that do not seem to know what they want to do, high school counselors need to inform them of in demand careers and the salaries they pay.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that they MUST go to college to succeed (or at least, to be perceived as a success), but they've also been sold on the idea that they (or their children) must go to the most prestigious (i.e. expensive) college that they can possibly afford, future finances and any actual correlation to success or happiness in life be damned.
Michigander_Life
(549 posts)We need to encourage our youth to boycott higher education until it is made affordable and available to ALL.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)for spots at more "elite" universities (or at least, what are perceived and marketed as such), which allows those institutions to crank their tuition up astronomically, in an ever escalating price war (ironically going in the reverse of the usual direction), in which the consumer is ultimately the loser.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Grades and all she had an offer to a school for next to nothing. It's a good school. Instead...she attended the slightly better school at an arm and a leg. Parents were all for it, but she would have been able to get her pick of mend school with either school, a good MCAT and solid letters of recommendation.
But, but...her degree...whatever. Parents were also enthralled by that and both attended a public university (in Mexico) back in the day. You'd think...but they have been on that threadmill since kids started going to school as wee little ones.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)rating system that might give parents more insight into how tuition money is spent/squandered.
This prior thread on college tuition and ratings is pretty interesting......
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5004676
Note....I support a strong governmental rating system that helps parents and students decide which colleges are spending wisely, and which are simply not worth the money....
To the Jury...it is not against the TOS to reference prior threads...that's why we have a handy search function from admin to help us do so.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)State legislatures have been paying less and so students have been paying more. Another problem is bloated administrative costs. That is partly due to politics as well. Consider, for example, the bureaucratic imposition of "student outcomes assessment." Dumb politicians demand outcomes assessments; because of that demand, accreditation organizations demand outcomes assessments as a condition of being accredited; so universities respond by wasting resources on outcomes assessment so that they can be accredited. (And now Duncan and Obama are pushing for more of this sort of nonsense.)
Sancho
(9,070 posts)state support has dropped out completely, so public colleges are becoming more and more self-supporting, except they cannot build big foundations like private schools (because then the state says you have too much money), they are more regulated and open door than private colleges, and they tend to accumulate high-paid administrators who are sometime political appointees!
As such, the squeeze is on the students (and their parents).
It is catch-22.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Too many decisions are being made on the basis of money. Core academic values are pushed aside. I predict that a government rating system will do more harm than good. It will create a perverse incentive to do well in the ratings, causing more administrative bloat and less attention to core academic values.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Everyone plays a rating game, Lake Wobegon effect runs wild, hiring more and more administrators who make rules and know nothing.
In Florida we've passes several Constitutional amendments to try and force the legislature to behave, but they still manipulate the system. Last week, they put a retired state Senator (with no academic credentials) in as the President of Florida State!!!!
It's nuts. The students will pay more, the faculty will get by on less (not to mention the increased number of part time faculty), the quality will go down.
The ex-senator and his friends and relatives will get high-paying jobs and do little more than cause trouble.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)have you seen the dorms and other facilities they're building... OMFG! the dorm i lived in was 100+ years old with no central heat or air and a community bathroom per floor. now, they're building palaces for these kids...
sP
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I can't believe what students are charged for a crappy private apartment near campus these days.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)college 1970-74 my share of the rent was $75.00 incl. utilities, and the rentals were month to month -this in Southern California. Today my daughter's share of the rent for a crappy 1 bedroom that 's literally falling apart (also in So Cal) is $685.00 plus utilities and she has to sign a yearly lease. They've got you coming and going.
Chico Man
(3,001 posts)I still cannot believe this is a dorm at BU.
http://www.boston.com/realestate/gallery/09_01_09_BU_dorms_open/
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Simple: students choose colleges at least in part based on such amenities. Universities are currently in a state of fierce competition with each other for enrollments. A new gym, a new dorm, new sports fields, new dining halls - all of these become part of the sales package. That shit costs money.
So, we've seen the traditional culprits listed already: declining state support, bloated administration, lavish amenities. I also see that nobody's mentioned technology costs. This one's particularly notable since it goes directly toward the "practical education" so many have been preaching. Practical education in STEM disciplines probably doesn't require high-end facilities, stocked computer classrooms, professional grade labs, digital cinema studios, and tens of thousands of dollars in equipment layouts even in humanities disciplines, but that's how it's cashed out. Besides, you'd never attract the top faculty in a STEM discipline if you're running 1960's era biology labs, because they'd never be able to conduct their own research or publish anything.
It's notable that this side of the cost increases never gets mentioned when people do the tuition-increase gripe, for fairly obvious reasons. While you'll get a couple of olds insisting that they learned engineering drafting with pencil and paper and these kids these days don't need all that AutoCad and the like (grumble grumble), nobody in industry takes such people seriously, and besides, once we throw in the competition element, that all goes out the window anyway. If all I need to do to pull 20% of enrollments from peer institutions is build some computer classrooms and do some software buys (and then hire faculty who can teach that stuff), I'm going to do just that, and it would be stupid not to.
Igel
(35,309 posts)And often they do.
When the undergrads tour in the spring with their parents, they're often spoiled. They've had it fairly good if they're middle-class or above. They don't want mystery meat, they don't want a room that's 40 years old with two plugs and limitations on the current they can draw.
They want a choice between waffles and made-to-order omelettes for breakfast, various choices for lunch and dinner (one with real meat, one that's vegan, etc.)
Low SES kids aren't always like this. But they consume more resources and have a much higher drop-out rate.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,985 posts)Is an issue I've followed pretty closely in my state over the last 30+ years. And while the meme gets repeated ad nauseam this is one case where both parties are to blame.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)appreciable means of making a better life for oneself, well just how much would that be worth? I can't imagine a time where the hopeful who believe in the meritocratic ideal of working hard toward the betterment of one's life will surrender in apathetic disillusionment to the idea that the cost for opportunity is too high. No, I think those who value college and perceive the opportunity to secure a mortgage on opportunity in an inflationary economy and at a low secured interest rate, I can't imagine what price will be considered too high. The conditions that might force colleges to reassess the price vs the perceived benefit they're selling are not in our near future, i'm afraid.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)The apprentices are paid to work (OTJ training) and (the carpenters) go to class for 2 weeks every 2 months (paid unemployment as long as they have been working). In the Midwest they earn about about (1st year apprentice) $15 an hour. That increases each year. They graduate with an associates degree, debt free and when they finish their apprenticeship (4 years of work including their class time) they are Journeymen, earning $30-$40 an hour.
They earn a decent wage while learning and graduate into a living wage. Their health benefits begin 90 days after they begin the apprenticeship program. It is 100% paid for as long as they work full-time. It is hard work, great training and a great career....now if my Son would commit..
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)sounds like a heck of a way to go...
sP
blackspade
(10,056 posts)But something like this would be tremendously attractive to many high schoolers.
Unions should recruit just like the military and colleges.
That would increase and strengthen union membership and strengthen the working classes.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)in the states that they are strong, they began H.S. recruitment this year. I would love for them to come South.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)That will hang over them for decades. I don't have an answer but clearly this is unacceptable and unsustainable.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)wrote an article published on Huffington Post detailing his situation. He is so heavily in student loan debt that he s currently living in somebody's garage. He's been unable to secure a steady gig because he keeps getting laid off at the end of every school year due to budget cuts in every district he's worked for. His concern at this point is just basic survival. It's horrible.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)teaching rung. Yes, agreed, teaching is an incredibly tough way to make a living.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)I had to move for a teaching job, and I can't sell my old house. All of the child support pays for the old house, so the kids and I are surviving on my salary alone, a salary that's just $400 a year more than the free and reduced lunch cut-off. With $600/month propane bills last winter along with some medical bills and legal bills, I'm beyond over-extended.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)teaching is too often a ridiculously low paying profession. There is no way a teacher in my local district could afford a home here on a single teaching income. I feel your pain.
And it's horrible for substitutes like me, too. Slave wages. No benefits. No raise the last seven years. And the district just added insult to injury by installing an automated substitute placement system that pits subs against each other as they fight for half day/half pay assignments, with an advantage to those willing to pony up for an app that rings a bell when a job has been posted -- sort of a cross between The Hunger Games and a Pavlovian nightmare.
I do enjoy the idea of being a teacher, but the joy has been sucked out of the reality.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)I hear ya.
On top of all that, I have to get my master's in order to renew my certification, so I'm going into about $60K of debt in getting my master's in ESL (so I can teach that, too). While I love my program and have learned so much, it's more than a little disheartening to know that I will be paying for it for the rest of my life.
maindawg
(1,151 posts)Community college. The reason they never hear those words are because the universities do not allow them to. Just like pharm. salesmen push their poison universities push a product in our schools. The armed forces also push their own propaganda, much to my dismay.The one institution that can help the most students gets muzzled.
CC should be free. We can afford to offer free CC to any student who has a 2.5 GPA and any kind of resume. We should celebrate our local CC just as we do our local HS.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)college for 3 years before transferring to the large public university he now attends. He was there 3 years because the school is so overcrowded it was difficult to get the classes he needed. Then, when he finally was able to transfer, he discovered that the university required so many additional General Ed units plus all the upper division units in his major that it will take almost 3 more years in order to graduate. He definitely saved money by living at home those first three years, but his extended university stint is rapidly draining the bank account.
One ridiculous facet of Community College life in California is that kids are so enamored with the idea of going away to college they end up going away to Community College. Santa Barbara City College is full of kids who live side by side in Isla Vista with the UCSB students. Cuesta College near Cal Poly San Luis Obispo same thing. Spoiled kids and indulgent parents.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,985 posts)38 years ago when I attended in state tuition (Washington) was $8.30 per credit maxing out at $83.00 if one took ten our more credits a quarter.
These days it's $106.64 per credit. If one takes more than ten credits the rate drops to $52.30 per credit for the additional credits.
Yes it's cheaper than a four year school but one still pays a bit.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)We teachers tell them about it, many school programs take them on field trips to the closest one, and their reps get time with our students like everyone else does.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)K&R
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snot
(10,526 posts)I thought it was all about things like the quality of the education, the prestige of the credential provided (based on academic excellence, accomplishments/renown of its faculty, success of its graduates) . . . I never visited a campus before choosing, or gave a moment's thought to the amenities.
WHY in the world would anyone undertake that kind of debt based on amenities? I don't mean to be critical of students; I'm just skeptical that this is the explanation, or the whole of it, anyway.
Many colleges HAVE become more corporatized dominated by corporate boards who may see a money-making opportunity for construction contracts, among other conservative goals, etc.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Colleges wouldn't be spending so many hundreds of millions of dollars on them. And it's not necessarily a matter of picking a college because it has nicer dorms, but rejecting out of hand those that don't. Colleges feel like they have to upgrade those things just to stay even, because frankly, overall quality of education just doesn't vary that much across the four year universities that the vast majority of students attend. The experience and the environment are what's being marketed and sold, not how great their Econ 101 course is.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I'm guessing most people here haven't seen the inside of an enrollments management meeting where you can see the stats on this. It's true that no student says (at least openly) "I'm going to University X because their gym facilities are AWESOME and the dorms are killer." But many students will say "That school looks poor" if there's not a modern gym and new construction everywhere. We can deny this all we want with anecdotal evidence ("I would never and nobody I know would ever..." but if you actually look at the numbers and feedback, the conclusion is obvious: you build these things to maintain and grow enrollments, and if you don't, you lose to the schools that do.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)that's what's happening. And even the smaller schools are doing this to try and keep up.
HoosierCowboy
(561 posts)All education from K1 to PHD ought to be FREE!
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)You throw that "free" out pretty irresponsibly. Nothing is free!
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)Many of these classes have over a hundred students and are being taught be a grad student.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)over 700. Many of the lower division classes there have similar ridiculously high numbers. However, once a week the students attend small group discussion sections taught by a grad student. Some of the grad student assistants are great. Some are meh. It's the luck of the draw. Only upper division classes are routinely "small" meaning 70-200.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)My graduate class had 23, which is probably too high.
citizen blues
(570 posts)working 2 and 3 jobs, which means they don't have the time and/or the energy to provide the best instruction. This has meant there's been a huge decline in the quality of instruction as well.
I've been working as an adjunct. Private schools will give me the hours, but pay literally half what public community colleges do. Public colleges pay better, but I can't get the hours. At one community college, I was only allowed 1 class spring term. Yet they didn't have enough teachers to fill the classes they offered and ended up having to hire more adjuncts.
The system is seriously broken. We've stopped investing in our future. I don't know what it would take for that to change.
My advice to young people: Forget college. Do yourself a favor, learn a trade instead. Go to your local community college and get into an apprenticeship program. Become a carpenter, welder, plumber, machinist or something else like that. This country has an entire generation of skilled tradesmen and laborers who will be retiring in the next 10-20 years and we don't have nearly enough young people going into those fields to even begin replacing them.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)the trades. All they offer are general education classes that transfer to the university. In order to learn a trade, you have to attend a costly private trade school. It's a no win for kids in my suburban area.
Stainless
(718 posts)I know a person who is in this situation and has zero chance of ever paying the money back. I find it absolutely appalling that this occurred and I wonder how many other older workers were pushed into this trap by unscrupulous for-profit schools (failure factories).
The existing government backed system smacks of loan-sharking and organized crime. The President needs to understand that it is a stain on our system of higher education and it needs to be removed.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)K&R
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)That should include higher education.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)When I was teaching, we used to refer to a certain type of students as "zombies". These were students who had no defined goals or direction, but were simply wandering around campus in search of "Brains!" It usually wasn't the students fault. Many of these kids have no idea what they want to do with their life, so well meaning counselors and parents send them off to college with a comforting, "Don't worry dear, you've got four years to figure it out!" I once heard an incoming freshman complain about her mother picking her major, and the counselor responded by changing her over to an "Undeclared" major, while feeding her platitudes about "discovering her direction" in college.
While well intentioned, these parents and counselors are saddling these students with countless thousands of dollars in debt every year on the gamble that they MIGHT figure out a direction before the graduation clock runs out, while hoping that the "'direction" pays enough to repay the debt they have accrued. In countless cases, that gamble doesn't pay off. In my experience, the majority of these students end up picking some arbitrary major by their third year, reasoning that it's "better than nothing". Most of these students end up unemployed or in fields they hated, while buried in debt, simply because society and their families didn't give them the time they needed to figure their lives out FIRST.
If your kid is directionless, let them try a trade, or a job shadowing program, or send them off to the Peace Corps to volunteer. More often than not, sending them off to college does more harm than good.