Who is the bad guy with a gun?

evening news soon.

the NRA has us at the intersection of stand your ground and open carry. The results won't be good

Second, realize who the target(s) are.

Third, proceed with caution and watch your back.

The guy made a mistake. He ASSUMED the lady wasn't a terrorist.

These folks are domestic terrorists, led on by conservanazi/reich wing media. They were going to put an end to Alex Jones' New World Order.

Give me a fucking break. I'm sure your uncanny danger radar would have immediately spotted every bad person in a Walmart full of customers.

Fucking bollocks.

Those tips weren't going to work and obviously did not. My condolences to his family.

it up, you or anyone else not exposed to the training and experience required to consistently deal with these situations are deluding yourselves if you think you'll do anything with any consistency but risk getting yourselves or somebody else killed.

maybe has some training in this stuff.

and it's been a long time since I was in combat this century.

Being a veteran, even a formerly well-trained infantryman, doesn't make a person some kind of fucking magic ninja. That's only in the movies.

Hopefully, it sinks in.

So true.. Voice for Peace

IOW.. instead of insulting someone because you differ.. treat them with respect when making your point. It can be a challenge but mahalo for the gentle reminder.

or vinegar.

Where every tough guy is tall, fit, handsome and an expert shot.

Oh, rich, too, with a bevy of girlfriends, a large bank account and a private jet!

and avatar, quite possible.

Not every gun owner is a buffoon, though so many try to dismiss them as such. Also a gun is no magic talisman guaranteeing success.

I have had quite a bit of CT training but I would not have wanted to go up against a long arm with a pistol. That is a good recipe to become a dead hero. Retreat is a tactically sound principle that is often the best course of action. I can't say what I would have done in the situation, but Get the Hell out of Dodge would have been on the short list.

My crystal ball is in the shop so I do not know if Mr. Wilcox stepped forward with good reason, trying to protect others or if he was overconfident and needlessly put himself in the path of danger.

No matter what, his family has my sympathy and I hope they find consolation that , right or wrong, he was trying to stop people from being killed.

that situation to success as the the well intentioned carrier who lost his life was.

We need more of these.

shooters and you don't know how many or where they are
or who they are shooting at. Kind of like in Vietnam,
or Walmart.

As a Vietnam infantry vet and a psychologist, I can assure you there ain't no sech thing as training or expertise that will allow you to identify someone as a hostile before the shit breaks loose.

because they were in uniform. No way were they expecting someone to blow them away in a Cici's pizza restaurant.
Next had Mr Wilcox or anyone else for that matter known who they were looking for they may have hidden and fired from a safe position.

It got this guy killed because it made him brave enough to confront the shooters. And he didn't injure either one of them.

They failed to realize that everyone is an enemy just waiting to strike.

Such is the world some live in.

So how could pulling a gun out in that situation not be a mistake?

is involved, where they are and what they are doing. *IF* you decide to try to engage the subjects, you don't want any surprises like this guy tragically found out. Don't try to be a "hero" if you're not fully aware of all the perps. If you *know* you're outnumbered, try to get to a safe vantage point where you can still observe, and take them out one by one by surprise if you *have* to.

I don't carry anywhere except on my own property, when I'm walking in the woods, and that's because of snakes, coyotes and at least 2 packs of wild dogs that run through sometimes. I think the wild dogs have just banded together from a bunch of strays that get dropped off out around here because I live way out in the sticks.

We are living in crazy times, and a lot of the crazies are armed. I wouldn't want to be caught in a situation like that, but at least I'd pretty much know what to do if I was. Not being armed though, I'd find me a damned good hiding place!

As for all the people out there with your concealed carry permits... if you have no formal traing, other than the shooting test you had to take to get your permit and maybe a little range time, don't try to be a "hero" and "save the day" or you could wind up a victim yourself.

Peace,

Ghost

He had the opportunity to leave, too. The store was mostly empty by that point, so there was no need to confront them. Just a guy with a now-grieving family who had daydreams of heroism.

the delay, which gave other potential victims time to escape.

A little too early to tell how much is agenda-serving FUD, like the claims the Aurora theater shooter was wearing a bullet proof vest (He wasn't, though he did have some tactical armor bits and bobs, his torso was not protected.) and how much is real.

It'll be a while before the dust settles. And then the conspiracy theorists will swoop in and shit all over everything.

But it also got him killed, and he didn't injure either one of them. If they had wanted to kill other shoppers, they had time and opportunity. The fact that they told everyone in Walmart to get out of there indicates to me that the shoppers and employees weren't their targets.

It's not the decision to carry a gun or not, that actually causes people to die. It's the willingness to take a life. Not just in the abstract, but in the moment. Not just 'a person', but 'THAT person'.

The cops had guns. But in that moment, they were eating, apparently. They weren't making the conscious choice to end a life.

Two people go into a gunfight, one murderous 'bad guy' willing and looking to kill, the 'good guy' maybe not willing, the good guy is a little too far behind the curve to win.

I mentioned the Tacoma Mall shooter downthread. The armed responder didn't shoot Maldonado on sight. He did the humane thing. The 'I don't want to kill you' thing. He yelled at him to surrender and drop his weapon. Whereas, Maldonado had no such compunctions. End result? Armed responder lives in a wheelchair now.


In order for any of this to work, to match force with force, you also have to match intent.

Killing humans is not a warm, fuzzy concept a lot of us want to marinade in. I have a CPL. I carry. I can't promise you or anyone else, that I wouldn't make the same mistake the responder at the Tacoma Mall made. Or Mark Allen Wilson made, engaging the shooter at the Tyler Tx courthouse. Or this fellow made here in the Wal-Mart.

(Granted, Mark Allen Wilson did engage and repeatedly shoot Arroyo in Texas, but Arroyo was wearing multiple layers of body armor, and shrugged off the hits.)

carrying guns into Walmart just to prove they have a right to.

So no responsible person like you would whip out his concealed gun and shoot a man he sees carrying a shotgun (or whatever it was) into Walmart. But that's the only thing Wilcox could have done that MIGHT have been successful -- except then the wife would have killed him anyway.

The Lakewood shooting is an example of what I just said. Having the gun is not enough. Intent matters. If your intent is to sit there and relax, drinking your coffee and talking to someone, and someone walks in with a gun, and the announcement of hostilities is the first shot fired, by someone who intends to kill people, having that gun is of little use. You're not in that 'mode'. You've lost initiative. You have a process you have to go through, to decide that there is a situation that requires force, draw your weapon, clear the safeties (I don't know what make/model Lakewood carries, state patrol carries H&K, SPD carries Glock, one has manual safeties, the other does not) select your target and engage.

That's a pretty tall order when the other guy is already shooting at you with intent to kill.


Should they have had armed guards? I didn't suggest that. I only pointed out that their guns on their hips are of little use in that scenario, given the shooter in that attack seemed at least moderately competent in getting close, and hitting what he aimed at.


What I am pointing out is, in my estimate, most of the pitiful few of us who legally carry, are prepared to reflexively take another person's life. So having a gun, is still a far cry short of a fair fight, let alone a reasonable prophylactic against random shooters/attacks.

I carry. I'm trained. I cannot guarantee I will be of use if the need arises. (ignoring even the possibility of being caught utterly by surprise) Essentially, I'm questioning if my habit of carrying serves any purpose besides ballast.

I wish that ABC simunitions 'test' hadn't been so damned rigged. (Shooter not knowing who the one armed person in the room was.) I would genuinely like to know how well people can perform under that strain/surprise.

Start restricting manufacture and sales, demand strict accountability, and destroy every gun that's recovered from criminals. It also wouldn't hurt to disallow firearms from being inheritable. Ie, pry them away from owner's 'cold, dead hands' as they always tell us we can. It will take time, but we CAN reduce the total number of guns in circulation.

Being nice to the family of, and memory of, a recent murder victim. What the hell else were they going to say?

'Your father/son/brother did something stupid and got himself killed'.

Yeah, probably not going to say that in a press conference.

Didn't help them much.

If the cops had their guns sitting on the table at the ready to shoot anyone who approached them, I am sure you would have a problem with that.

Two cops are dead and you're blaming them for their own deaths.

Just pointing out the fallacy that being armed is a defense against a crazy mofo with a gun.

There are no laws that could have prevented what happened in Las Vegas.

on probation & possessing guns violated that probation. Too bad the neighbors didn't report their rants. They *might* have gotten the guns. But on the other hand, it could've sent them even further over the edge. I just feel so fucking helpless.

Reading about cops being killed brings up primal fear in me. My dad was a cop & it still freaks me out when this happens because him being kiled was my biggest fear as a child.

Pointing out that guns do not magically stop shooters just by their very presence, that Guns are not special talismans projecting an "anti shooting" aura surrounding them is not blaming anyone.

Playing John Wayne is stupid because you can never be trained enough. Just watching "Die Hard" doesn't cut it!

well, aside from your wisdom of hindsight. thats pretty dickish and presumptuous.

you dont know the guy who died attempting to stop a shooter, you dont know what his profession or background was or what thoughts went through his head before he chose to engage rather than flee.

it very much could have been an unselfish act that put others lives before his own.

but by all means, drag him through the dirt to prove your stance.

Talk about being a dick look in the mirror
On edit: gunners don't know shit about self defense. You live in a fantasy that gets you killed. I don't burn incense to the alter of gun nuttery like you do.

that carrying a gun doesn't make an average citizen safer.

In this case, it made him brave enough to confront the shooter, and led to his death -- while all the customers and employees who followed the shooters' instructions to leave the building survived.

psycho path if he says do what I say and I won't kill you. There are instances where robbers told people to get on the ground face down and then shot them in the back of the head.

Guns embolden people to do things they would not otherwise do: rob banks and convenience stores, threaten federal marshals in defense of a deadbeat rancher, follow and confront unarmed black kids and shoot them, own and abuse slaves, etc. If Wilcox had not had a gun he probably would have taken off running like everybody else in the store and he'd be telling his story today.

and a sense of direction are much better guarantors of safety in a shooting situation than a gun.

There are so many stories now where Rambo chases some guy stealing his car stereo and gets shot instead of running away, finding safety, and calling the cops. The NRA and gun manufacturers thrive on this kind of advertising to sell more penis prosthetics. The hero also could have shot an innocent civilian with his wild west attitude. There is no place for guns in public, period.

We're often told by bumper-stickers and simpletons that a heavily armed population is a polite population; hence, the U.S. is the most polite nation on the planet?

Try again, my simpleton friends...

The good guy cops had guns. What do you say now?

posting that. They also had training and all that other LEO stuff.

you know, so ANY NUTCASE WALKING BY COULD GRAB ONE.......OMG these fucking people

I was not advocating that the cops should have their guns on the table.

I've seen that message from gun humping cowards in news article comments

your point is indeed valid

went into a pizza shop in Minneapolis and executed a cop who was there doing some paperwork. It took almost a year to get the triggerman, but they finally did and he will never see the light of day.

have at least one loser. No guarantees it will be the bad guy.

That's why I said at least one loser.

The 'bad guy / good guy gun argument is like nailing Jello to a wall, not gonna happen. Here's living proof and thanks for posting this, justice.

Utah IHOP shooting? Net effect: no help, no additional body count.
Tyler TX Courthouse: 1 life saved, armed responder died.
Tacoma Mall: No one shot after the armed responder confronted the shooter, armed responder paralyzed.


Hard to draw a conclusion from any one instance, except for one:

Intervening with or without a gun, is extremely risky.

But cowboys gotta buy their gunz, putting more on the street and potentially in hands of criminals.

and they're all dead.

Not sure what the point was but ...okay.

none of the precious precious guns were injured or killed.

The concept of "buddy teams" is instilled into you from the second you meet your drill sergeants.

Two people might have had a chance against those two - one on overwatch, one confronting the known shooter. One person obviously had no chance, and two may not have fared any better.

situation.

assumed that Wilcox was one of the shooters. The best strategy for a concealed carrier who isn't ready to die would be to hide behind something and only fire when the shooter is very close. RIP.

but in Minnesota, in this scenario, the instructor would tell the peoole in the class to not engage the shooters.

in a mass shooting. Period. Automatically, you win the bad guy is dead. Except, that hasn't happened ever.

"The ONLY way to stop a bad guy with a firearm is a GOOD guy with a firearm." Wayne LaPissant's assertion...

Tell that to the two dead police officers (armed good guys) in Nevada.
Or the Police officers in Lakewood, WA.

Simplistic statements like that cheapen the sacrifice of the victims and is so craven and self-serving it is sickening. The NRA is not a gun owners organization it is a gun sales advocacy group. Wayne LaPierre does not care how many police officers, children, or gun owners die for that matter. He cares about GUN SALES. Period.

Good guys with guns is not the only solution. There is such a thing a gun control (No, Ted Nugent, or flavor of the week GOPher, it is not using both hands or hitting your target) and we need to take a serious look at it.

Notice how silent the NRA has been this past week? Wait for it, LaPierre will raise his ugly head, Nugent will conveniently forget when America called him to duty, he shit his pants and will still talk tough while holding a firearm. And more tragedies will unfold because congress lacks the balls to seriously consider gun control.

and let god sort 'em out. That's what the second guessers seem to be saying.

It's just another proof of the statement that the best predictor of dying by gunshot is owning a gun.

There are around 120 million gun owners in the U.S.A and around 9000 murders and 21,000 suicides a year in the U.S by firearms.

Statistically you more likely to die from your car

will die from gunshot wound. , it is statistically more likely someone who owns a car will die from his car.

There are over 120 million gun owners if you do the math it's not even close. You more likely to die from medical malpractice
then owning a gun.



This is what he said

"It's just another proof of the statement that the best predictor of dying by gunshot is owning a gun"

The poster said:

"It's just another proof of the statement that the best predictor of dying by gunshot is owning a gun"


Show me the math how that is.............. you know you can't

What the poster is saying is that if we were to measure the strength of predictors for becoming a victim of a firearm related fatality, owning a firearm would be at the top. Now, I'm not certain if it is at the very top.

But owning a firearm is a predictor for gun violence and also for firearm related fatalities.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24028252
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

Don't you see that?

Not owning a firearm would be an excellent first step in prevention.

Even if the gun-as-predictor statistics were wrong (and I don't know; afaik maybe being black is a better predictor of dying by gun violence than being a gun owner), these irrelevancies are still a logical fail.

is CHICAGO next?

assuming that a woman can't be a mass shooter was the last mistake Joe Wilcox ever made.

Can women write their names in yellow in the snow?