no clue what is happening to them and why, but instantly blame all problems on the poor who are gaming the system (when in reality it is less than 1% who do).

I think they need to become the poor so they can find out the truth

When you feel that you have been wronged ,don't look at those who have less than you. Look at those who profit from your hardship.
Who was it that said "behind every great fortune lies a great crime"?

is named Balzac -- The quote is printed inside the original Godfather book.

is caused directly by the RW propaganda machine. It is by design and very effective! The middle class is under attack but made to believe it is caused by the poor rather than the corporations and the Plutocrats. They are conditioned to be so angry that they will not listen to reason. This allows the wealthy to have their (not our) politicians to write a favorable tax code, hand out lucrative government contracts, avoid jail for white collar crimes, pass bogus tort reform preventing or limiting recoveries for their wrongdoing, cut education and safety nets...
This is why we need to fight for publicly funded elections and complete campaign finance reform (CCFR). Then we can revamp the FCC and require truth in news shows and bust up the media conglomerates, among other things. For now we should be focused solely on publicly funded elections and CCFR!

Thanks for making this an op.

Of course, Capitalism is going to celebrate its "winners" and demean its "losers." That's the way this game is played!

I've gotten to the point where I'm really looking forward to the Revolution. It's going to happen in my lifetime, and it's going to be huge. Hopefully, we can control it to some degree, so that people don't get hurt. But I kinda doubt it. The sociopaths who have taken over the top of the food chain are ruthless. It really may come down to "us or them." They have proven time and again that so many of them are "above the law," and above any kind of ethics or morality. We need a complete change in thinking, and while I have hope for the Millennials and beyond, they could end up just as co-opted as the Boomers or as jaded as Gen X.

An armed revolution in America would have far too many fringe groups fighting for far too many different ideas. Provided it was successful in overcoming our government and/or military, I'm not sure there would be anything left but ashes. It would be a huge, terrifying mess that would make all of our past wars look like a mild disagreement. Over three hundred million people, who knows how many guns - or what the military would ultimately do.

I think we need to do everything - absolutely everything - we can to avoid any kind of violent revolution in America. If we have to lay down in front of buses again, chain ourselves to fences or buildings, jump up and down screaming... prance around naked in front of congressional buildings, even just yodel very loudly to make our voices heard. The yodeling is almost as scary as the idea of a war, hmm.

I think that people can be convinced, through education, through logic and reason - that there are steps we need to take, things we need to do to improve our Country and our world - while we still can.

If it comes to armed revolution, we're all pretty much screwed.

But, considering all the yahoos with guns, I don't see how to avoid it. I'm certainly more of the chain myself to buildings and prance around naked in front of congressional buildings kind of revolutionary, but nobody seems to want to do that stuff anymore. Maybe the revolution will simply be technological. That kid who discovered a way to clean the oceans quickly. Electric cars and solar panels. That kind of thing. But probably not, since there are entrenched interests that won't allow anyone to cut into their profits. They are insisting that it be painful, and they've figured out how to profit from the pain.

The irony is that the yahoos with guns are double-screwed, and don't even know it. We're all being screwed by the super-rich, and I think anyone who's been on this site for a while understands that, and how it works. The yahoos with guns are being screwed just like the rest of us, but there's another layer where they are being used as pawns, suckers and cannon fodder. It's really sad, because other than "God, Guns and Gays" (and of course, the current resident of the "White" House), we're all completely in the same boat.

I had a conversation with a friend the other night. He said that if there was a magic button he could push, there are probably only about 1,000 sociopaths in the world at or near the top, who, if they were somehow to disappear, everything could move back to balance. 1,000 (or so) sociopaths who's greed, corruption and short-sightedness are causing many if not most of our problems. I don't know if I agree with that, but I thought it was an interesting perspective.

But it's really a far larger number of people who make the world a shitty place, even if the ones your friend alluded to have the most money and political power.

"The sociopaths who have taken over the top of the food chain are ruthless. "
is especially apt for communist countries....only WORSE. IMHO

We really don't have a free market but we have too much cronyism. The Feds have shelled out close to $1 Billion dollars just for websites/navigators for Obamacare. Thats $3 Million dollars for every person in the US!!!!! Guess who got that money? Friends of Barak or rather Michelle.

Tell an American making twelve dollars an hour someone else is making sixteen dollars an hour for the same task, and the reaction will be 'How come that so-and-so's making more than me?', not 'Why aren't those so-and-so's here paying me that much?'

Some Americans remind me of the most pious, illiterate Medieval serfs in their attitudes toward their "lords."

Last edited Wed Jun 18, 2014, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Look at the private sector working class reaction to public sector benefits/work conditions ... it's all "why do they get 'special' treatment? "

I always say: "it sounds to me that you should be trying to organize your work place. I'm sure the public sector workers will be glad to help you! "

And, "how does cutting their benefits help you? "

Or a combination of the two.

I think a person in that situation should ask both questions. As an employer I pay more for experience, capability, duration (time served), commitment...

As someone on the wrong side of the poverty line, I applaud your OP. Thanks.

because a comfortable middle class votes more liberal. They are more worried about the future for their kids and grandkids. If you're struggling to keep a job so you can eat tomorrow, you can't think that far ahead.

And the worse inequality gets, the harder they'll have to work to keep us occupied.

An old French Socialist joke:

A tourist in Paris sees an old haggard man being arrested by a cop for eating food out of a garbage can.

Tourist: Why are you arresting that poor man, he's just trying to get something to eat?

Cop: Monsieur, he is stealing that food from the garbage can.

Tourist: But, that's unjust!

Cop: Unjust? I assure that if I saw a rich man eating food out of a garbage can I would arrest him.

Does it matter though? Think about it.

If I worked very hard, was noble & good to all, and very frugal does that make me a better person?

I would suggest that it doesn't really matter - because we all are in this system and whether you inherit, marry or "make" it - there is someone else there helping you (in the case of "making it" there are the people working hard for you in order for you to prosper etc).

So, I would say no it doesn't matter. In fact I would go so far as to suggest we could run this planet better if we got rid of currency all together.

"Wealth is neither virtue nor sin"? I strongly disagree.

I agree what you right.
My son just went to an auction where he bought a laptop, dirt cheap as well as musical instruments. He is not rich . He has a family. I always went to second hand shops. I believed it was recycling.

I think half of the US people have gone crazy.

You wrote a very good explanation of the crazy half.. where I live we are no so divided. Most of us think of ourselves as all being in this boat together. We believe in giving a hand to lift someone else up .

What has happened to America?

hell, I wish it were only half of the people on this site!

and my wife and I have to work an entire year to buy that and a slice of cake for desert.

I know, I should have stayed in school or gotten out of the construction industry years ago, but

I thought "food, clothing, shelter" jobs would keep ones head above water their entire life.

I've always disliked those soft handed, overly clean, smooth shaven pigs. Lennon had it right.

Maybe in the 19th century there was some small tangential relationship between working hard and succeeding, but even then there was always influence and a leg up for those who knew somebody. Judging people for poverty is beyond unreasonable now.

it is actually big corps and their elected whores.

Thanks for the thread, davidthegnome.

I thought all of America's problems were caused by illegal immigrants and gay marriage?

You mean, they're not?



Gosh.
Who knew?

Fascism is using the government to control other peoples' property.

Last edited Thu Jun 19, 2014, 05:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I have relatives and a wife that work for a state, county and fed gov and MOST of the money they spend is for the poor and MOST of the money comes from the rich and middle class.

Most of the problems they encounter are the result of a lack of education which is FREE or the result of a poor education. There is plenty of money to help people, if it was handled by local people and not bureaucrats.

If the government gave me the $15k per child that they spend on their education I could do a way better job!

Most wealthy people I know are honest and kind and give a lot to help the needy. They also spent their time and $ wisely at many years of school or developing a business.

So I think a bureaucratic system is the problem.

Didn't the Feds just come out with a report a couple of years ago about how illegals and undocumented people get $2.4 Billion dollars a year in "refunds". Couple that with the fact that 10% of top earners pay 71% of all Federal Income Taxes. hmmm

My Father earns about 100,000 a year - and brings home 60-70 somewhere. There are plenty of people a great deal richer who pay less in taxes due to clever accounting and tax loopholes - they can afford to hire the accountants that know all of the good tricks. This is not to say that they are necessarily bad people, but that they do take advantage of the system, which results in a heavier burden upon the middle class.

Bureaucracy is definitely a part of the problem, but I don't think that the solution lies in trusting local people to be charitable out of the goodness of their hearts. To whom do we give the funds? Who do we trust to spend them wisely and appropriately? We need laws and regulations in place to at least make an effort to be certain that the money is going where it is supposed to go - even if those laws and regulations often fall short.

Most of the wealthy people I know are not honest or kind - but a few of them practice philanthropy. Honestly, there are some truly wonderful wealthy people - like JK Rowling and Stephen King. Unfortunately, I have always found that they are - by far - within the minority. Most of those I know are more like Mitt Romney, or like a certain wealthy individual I know (A millionaire) who pays his employees minimum wage after sixteen years of employment.

I didn't hear about that particular report regarding illegal immigrants and undocumented people... could you site a source for that please? I'd be interested in reviewing that information.

Last edited Thu Jun 19, 2014, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I often don't get thoughtful responses. I read a poll a long time ago that asked what they thought a fair tax would be for themselves to pay, and the range was from 10%-25% TOTAL taxes, Fed, State, Sales, Property, etc. and I agree with that. The fact is that few wealthy people pay 0 taxes and those that pay 0 are usually paying taxes through the company instead. It still remains a fact too that the top 10% of earners pay 71% of all fed inc taxes.
I read several stories about Mitt R that described how much he gives and how he has helped a lot of people. The negative stories we usually see are from people that don't understand business. That if a business is going under or not making money then cuts have to be made to try and save it.
I think people like Bill Gates who started out with a program that evolved over time and created technology that has benefited nearly everyone that uses it, deserve all the wealth that they create. Nobody has to buy their product. Many millionaires were created and lots of people were paid very well out of that too. He has also given away a lot of money and helped many people as well as paid a lot in taxes.

My number was wrong The Washington Post reported $4.2 B! by Lisa Rein (I never heard of her) on 9/2/11.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/undocumented-workers-got-billions-from-irs-in-tax-credits-audit-finds/2011/03/23/gIQAhtaKvJ_blog.html

As far as "Who do we trust"... we have to trust either ourselves or our elected local officials. I like the way that Native Americans such as the Chumash Indians, Yokuts, etc. were set up as clans of about 500 people with a leader that was responsible for their well being. The way it is now is that there are too many people with competing interests and consequently little accountability. If you can get enough people to go along with your group you can gang up on people in other groups. Amplifying that problem is that someone in the Northeast corner of California can control the life of someone in the Southwest corner often just because no one knows each other. Its easy to vote to take away a strangers' rights rather than your own or if you even care about your rights.

I have another idea too. I want to set up a Craigslist-like website for each area. Then go out and interview all the needy people and post it on the website including the causes of their predicament, whether it was choosing a bad partner, not getting a good education, drugs or alcohol, medical/psychological, so that appropriate help is given. Then set up a fund where there is 100% disclosure on the website how all that money is spent helping those people. So instead of handing out a few dollars here and there around town I can put money into a local account and see how and if it is actually helping.

Just like technology is wiping out American Malls across the country it can also reshape how we take care of people.

You'd have to figure out though, who was going to fund it - and how. The person who did the interviewing would have to be some kind of medical professional, possibly combined with a financial counselor or accountant. Both someone who understands psychology and someone who understands finance. Yes, I think that such a program could definitely help, as long as it was strictly controlled in such a way as to be fair and cautious in what information it shares regarding individuals. I'm sure there are all kinds of legal regulations you'd have to consider to get it going, but if you could... yes, I think it's a pretty good idea.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Mitt Romney, but you definitely have some interesting ideas. Do you have any thoughts on how you would go about implementing the Craigslist-like website?

I've sent this page to a couple of self-proclaimed "progressive" acquaintances who need to see this in print, as my attempts to explain this verbally are always met with disbelief. And if this doesn't help them see the truth, they really need to just drop the charade and register republican.

there should be no surprise at, nor defense of, the result.