And the rapists generally have no guilt whatsoever.

The thing about silently acquiescing, they will generally use as much force as necessary...had she fought, the force would have increased and she would have been hurt even worse.

Every woman faced with rape has to decide just how far to fight back.

Even women who go limp, not putting up any fight, are not willing partners in their rapes. They're just trying to stay alive.

That's why we say they are rape survivors, not victims. Not a single one did anything wrong.

by means of prosecution for assault! Good luck trying "self-defense"...it's hard enough proving rape. Sigh.

Judeo-Christian and just as fucked up as the Muslim version!

I have talked to so many that wonder what they did to cause it and what they could have done to prevent it.

I was talking to a rape apologist about it and it was sick. She, yes SHE, kept asking when the rape survivor takes responsibility for what she did to cause it. And that she had supposedly been raped herself but she actively went and got therapy so she could understand what she was doing to cause herself to keep attracting that type of man! Meanwhile she compared that to what other survivors do and said how they only focus on the no means no part. She asked if I saw the difference.

I told her I clearly say the difference. I said that the latter group of women saw it for what it was - someone breaking the law and therefore is a criminal, and so they put the blame where it belonged. Those women pointed out what the creep did wrong but that she took the blame for someone else breaking the law and pointed the finger inward. I said there was a huge difference and I am sorry her therapist had failed her so spectacularly and I wish I was there to give her a huge hug and maybe she would see things as they really are.

or threatened.

Consent has to be freely given -- or it's not consent. Period.

No means no and silence doesn't mean yes.

http://bandbacktogether.com/sexual-coercion-resources/

but I stole that and posted it at another place I posted this writing. Someone (a woman) tried to say there are so many gray areas and I was this side of flabbergasted. I thought yours was a perfect reply and I used it over and over!

I found it somewhere else, might have been Raiin, but I can't remember

Do you have a link or statute.

Pot depends on how "coercion" is defined

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2ifohgzgmjvzjxffgf00l02w))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-520e

If you have moved that far where it's a yes or no situation and the answer is no you need to leave at that point. There is no sex in the world that is worth prison time.

Bit then why do some men risk it?

Probably they think No means just not right now, it's not worth it. If a woman says no 15 times then says yes she still said no and I am pretty sure the law will take that into account. I have gotten up and left women who I was sexually active with when they said no. Some of them thought I was just being a jerk and one even said she wanted to make me try harder, I broke up with her after that. I was raised that no means you leave because there is too much risk, was also raised to never have sex with a woman who has been drinking, if a girl seems slightly intoxicated I wont even give her the time of day.

I have a close male friend and we know some people who like rape role play. Some of them have been rape victims and feel a cathartic release when they do such role playing. My friend will not go anywhere near that type of thing even if he is single and looking.

When a girl says she wants you to try harder she is saying she is broken and you never play with anyone who is broken.

You are correct in that when a woman says no 15 times, and then says yes, it really is not a yes. If a woman must be coerced in any way then it is never a yes.

I like your rule about being intoxicated. These days I would never want to have sex with someone even if I was "just buzzed". I always like to be in control and know what is going on.

Rape role play and both were previously raped, never understood it and I would never do that type of role play with them. Sorry but people will do all kinds of stuff when they are angry and the last thing I need is for a woman to go to the police and say I raped her and me try to explain it was just role play. I have never had an issue getting a girlfriend or getting laid because there are no shortage of ladies in the world.

These people feel like they may be broken and if you are broken there can be a LOT of bad repercussions besides that which you mentioned.

I have talked to survivors who like role play and it seems their position is by going into a controlled situation it helps them safely relive what happened but this time they have set the rules and boundaries so they take back the power and therefore feel on control where a lot of survivors do not feel control for a long time to come.

I think it would be better for them to maybe seek professional help and not try to solve the problem in the bedroom. I have run into all kinds of things but the two that really bothered me were the rape fantasy and the daddy fantasy.

At least stay until the end of the movie. Or whatever.

If I am intimate with a woman and we hit the point where the word no comes up that means we are at the point where intercourse would have been the next step. What happens if I stay and she does change her mind then I am at a crossroad where I have to ask does she really want this or are her hormones speaking for her and she will regret it later and only remember the first no. It's much better for me to say, "I am very attracted to you but I really should go so we don't do anything we will regret, I will call you when I get home."

And she doesn't have to exactly say no for me to leave, I have dated women that have arbitrary rules like no sex till after the 3rd date. And on the first or second date stuff is getting hot and heavy and she might say something like, "I want this so bad but..." Guess what that is no, and it's best for me to leave at that point out of respect for her rules.

You're with a woman.

You become intimate.

At some point she says no in some fashion.

You then leave.

How do you think she feels about it?

Some message has been conveyed.

over my sense of security? No means No, so she should respect my desire not to be in that situation.

You can be in the presence of a woman without sexual activity and without rape. Surely there are other interests that kick in before, after or in the absence of sex.

Human companionship rarely threatens anyone's security.

the night is already over, I don't move that way. And only two times have I excused myself one was with a girlfriend who said no then proceeded to put on lingerie in front of me. I wasn't going to play that game, the other was a girl who wanted me to hold her while she slept, I can sleep just fine in my own bed thank you very much. I wasn't planning on staying the night with her so my plans never deviated from the original.

Why do you have such an issue with me leaving when a girl says No? Would you rather me stay, keep kissing and heavy petting in the hopes her mind changes because I don't want that for sure.

Her "no" is to be respected, but his leaving is not? He's essentially saying no to further dealings at that time.

regardless of gender, and frankly if I had just told my date "no thanks, not tonight", leaving is exactly what I want them to do.

It's interesting that women totally get what I am saying and doing but men can't comprehend it.

Sometimes people argue just to argue.

You understand.

Sounds like you have no interest in the girl herself. In which case, you should not be even trying to have sex with her. Or stick to girls who are interested in sex only when it comes to you.

It seems after you leave you aren't going to see those girl again, because they didn't put out when you thought it best, and you had no further interest in them.

Women are people, not just objects to use for sexual purposes. If they are just using you for that, fine, but I bet you don't think that to be the case.

You are with a woman, you have hit the point where sex comes next, clothing is off, foreplay has taken place and then she says "No". I am not up and leaving because she said no, I am leaving because I am respecting her wishes and to stay at that point I run the risk of her saying yes. Out of respect for her it's much better to tell her, "You are right, it's late, I should go, I will call you in the morning."

Now what is wrong with that? I think it's more offensive to sit up, put clothes on and ask her if she wants to talk about it.

And it's actually quite a crappy message.

I'd be pissed if I had a 'not tonight' moment with my husband and he got up and left the house.

I was married for 14 years, I had a lot of not tonight moments, but none of them took place after heavy petting. I am talking about being in a situation where sex would be next, not your husband kissing you on the lips and you say, "Not tonight".

In other words, your main concern seems to be avoiding the personal consequences of doing something wrong rather than being cognizant of the consequences for a woman you could potentially have raped.

This is a 50/50 situation and there is no rape because I insured that I would not be accused of it later be exiting the situation. I do not need to sit around and counsel her on her decision nor do I need to explain mine to her.

And yes my main concern is myself, if she says no and later says yes and we have sex I can still go to Jail so why would I ever put myself in that kind of danger?

Cognitive dissonance - The holding of two contradictory beliefs at once producing a stress response.

when she makes a decision on whether to have sex with him or not? Why am I held to a different standard?

To consider the man's feelings before having sex with him.

You aren't being held to a different standard at all.

Women are not delicate little flowers that need to have their feelings protected. If I decide that I want to go, that is my right, if I decide it's in my best interest to go then I am out.

My point is that your initial statements on this expressed a concern for the violation of the law and potential personal consequence rather than concern that your actions may harm another person.

I was taught if you don't want to be arrested for something never put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of it. I don't do drugs so I don't hang around people who use drugs, not because they are bad people but because I don't want to be in a situation where I can be arrested. I hold the same policy for a lot of things in life, there would be a lot of men who would not be in prison right now if they just upped and left a situation.

I hold the policy if the woman is intoxicated it's rape, if she says no once it's rape and if she acts reluctant without saying no it's rape. With these policies I never have to worry about being accused of rape, furthermore most of the women I date know it's about sex before we even go out so there are no false pretenses on why we are meeting. I am old enough that I don't have to be in a relationship to enjoy sex and all the women I date are in the same situation.

I'm talking about the underlying motivations for why you won't do something wrong. Is it because you understand how your actions have consequences on others? Or is it simply because you don't want to go to jail?

Based on what you've said so far, you seem to care deeply about how your actions have consequences for yourself. That much is obvious. But what I'm not getting from your statements if that you care how your actions have consequences for others. That is the disconnect. That is how law itself subordinates ethics because the citizenry are motivated to follow the law not out of some sort of higher understand of ethics or interpersonal consequence but because they fear the laws repercussions. That is a very bad situation to be in.

If you are looking for the only reason I don't rape is because of prison you wont find that. I am morally against doing something against a woman's will. If you want me to pretend we live in a world full of Unicorns and Rainbows where I would never be falsely accused of rape then sorry we don't live in that world. This world is fucked up, there are fucked up people in it and the only person I know for sure what they have going on in their head is my own. So when dealing with something as serious as rape I do whats best for me, the second the no word comes up I am out.

Now if you want to sit back and cuddle, maybe talk about feelings or whatever that is fine but if 2 hours later she says yes you better remember she said no first and you have to deal with telling her why you wont have sex with her. Me, I left on the first no and had a great night sleep and called her in the morning.

I can't imagine you getting that many dates. Sad. You'll never see a woman as a human being. And never be in love.

You see there are these dating sites where people meet and they have their expectations already laid out. There are plenty of women who have careers, children and lives where they do not want a relationship with a man but do like sex. I was married for 14 years, I don't plan on getting married again, the last relationship I was in was over a year and it was with a woman who just wanted casual sex but it turned into more.

Now you can judge me all you want, I don't look at women as objects but me being almost 40, career driven, divorced, two kids and never wanting to get married puts me into a category that is not ideal for all women. I travel, I work long hours, I have my kids all the time and so I don't have a lot of time to invest in a relationship. I work well with women who want casual sex or is fine only seeing each other once a week and every other weekend.

his actions aren't going to harm another person because he knows he's not a rapist. He does not, however, know what another person will do, so he chooses to do what he feels is the safe thing to do.

According to your logic, I can't say no to sex if the only reason I'm saying no is that I might get pregnant, because that's thinking only of myself.

What I say now and have said all along is that you have to weigh your own consideration with the consideration of others if you want to be an ethical person.

Caring only about yourself or caring only about others is the same anti-ethical end come full circle. What constitutes ethics is considering how personal actions have consequences on others. But, by recognizing this very actuality, you are also exploring how the actions of others have consequences on yourself. You recognize the needs of others while also recognizing your own personal needs.

There is no logical contradiction between my argument and your example of not wanting to be pregnant. Your partners desire to have sex does not in any way come close, let alone eclipse, your desire to not be pregnant.

you're someone who makes no apologies for who you are and how you act.

but you post 20 times to convince us to brag about behavior that is probably best kept to yourself, and we're assuming it's best kept to yourself if you want to be seen favorably.

of course, what you're posting is designed to get us to see you favorably, however, posting it once is going to get most of us to see you as the opposite, posting it over a dozen times is going to not only make us see you unfavorably, but also as probably some sort of jerk who feels a great need to prove that when he does something it's awesome.

for what I do, I think I can reply in return. It's not bragging, it's not justifying, its telling someone you don't like it that is your problem but don't accuse me of something I am not.

If it is self evident, there's no need.

If it's justified already who cares?

Maybe you're a lot more insecure about your actions than you'd like us to believe.

From now no I will just say please look at reply xyz, someone has already called me what you just did.

are killing me.

They are putting the woman's feelings first which is admirable but it's also treating them differently than they would treat a man so it's kind of sexist.

and leaving right after the word "no" is uttered. Do you even say goodbye or do you just calmly leave without saying a word?

I walked out once without saying a word and another time I explained it would be best for both of us if I left.

I'm more interested is the getting of the date. You want to go out with me and have sex? How many acceptances of dates does that get?

And that is not how it works, it's a dating site where you list all about yourself and the girl lists all about herself. A lot of women have on their profile they are not looking for a relationship but just casual.

It's about doing what's right because you consider how your actions effect others instead of simply doing what's right to avoid punishment.

How did me leaving in a situation negatively affect another?

It means the benefit for someone else is an incidental consequence. While they may have benefited, you didn't do what you did to benefit them.

Your argument has no ethical stance. It places self-interest above everything else.

Why am I required to to place someone above me when I make a decision on how I handle a situation. Jesus, that is like a sick fuck who thinks that a woman should put him first and should put out because if she doesn't it will hurt his feelings.

I hate to break it to you I don't date because I think it's fucking ethical. I don't hold little philosophy sessions in my head in how my date may interpret my actions and what she may think. I only have one person I answer to and its myself, now you may see dating as a popularity contest where everyone needs to like you, but I don't. The purpose of dating is to find someone you are compatible with, if you are pretending to be what you are not just so it makes your date happy then you are going to end up in a shitty relationship.

Oh and lets not forget sometimes you date just for casual sex where both parties don't really want to know what you think as ethical or if you will even call them in the morning.

You understand consideration for others as personal victimization and ethics are inconsequential in your dating life.

Somehow, your goodness comes out in the wash. As if you hope that by going so far into the realm of not giving a shit about others you can come full circle and become the hero of your own story.

As for me, it's 8 PM on a Saturday night, I have date coming over it will be the casual kind. Chat with you later.

Someone who may or may not exist.

This is the internet.

People are weird.

The alternative is almost too appalling to contemplate.

I am so confused why in this day and age people seem to hold sex as something sacred. It's sex, people do it casually all the time and if a girl says no I don't ask her why she is saying no just like she never asks why I am leaving.

Pretty sad. So you basically reject someone who won't "put out" when you want her to.

Usually 2-3 a week and not all of them lead to sex, we are talking about an instance where a woman says no. Not her sitting at the dinner table and laughingly saying, "I am not going to sleep with you tonight". We are talking about you are in that instance where you both know the next move you make will lead to sex, clothing is probably already off, touching has already taken place, people are very aroused. And it's not rejecting, it's respecting her wishes and making sure it does not go any further.

She's most likely glad to see you go, if you treat women like sex vending machines, which is what this whole subthread sounds like.

Never heard that one before, but then I have never had so many men get so butt hurt that I don't sit down with a woman and get a better understanding of why she said no. I am sorry, if a Girl can't handle "It's getting late, I should be going." maybe you can ride in and be their white knight, because that is what it sounds like you want to be.

You ask if she wants sex, and if she says no, you sometimes stand up and walk out without a word.

And it was a girlfriend, I did not ask if she wanted sex. I came over specifically for an intimate evening, she said No, I was like ok who knows maybe it's that time of the month or whatever. She then proceeded to strip down naked and put on lingerie, she then asked me if I was confused. I don't play games especially when no has already been said, I did not say a word and left.

What you're saying is pretty much exactly what everyone says men should do in such that situation. Her body, her choice, at all times, no questions asked. Don't try and talk her into it. No is no, and don't leave yourself in a potentially bad situation.

You're not raping a woman(which is, you know, the main part of it), but you're still wrong somehow, and get raked over the coals for it.

One married woman said something but it was more to the effect she would be pissed if her husband left the house after she said not tonight, not nearly the same context as I am talking about. A couple women said I was correct which is all that matters.

immediately leaving, and most of the people responding are assuming a relationship in which such possibilities might be worthwhile. For instance a date early in a relationship might reach a point where one person says something along the lines of "I like you but I'm not quite ready for this." In that case, "I'm outta here" might not be the only tack to take if you're interested in developing a relationship. Of course, not all dates are about developing relationships ...

If I understand the situation correctly then you go out with women to have sex. You understand this and so do they. You are both adults. It is almost like an oral contract between the both of you. "Do you want to go for some drinks and maybe have sex?" "Sure." "Great, let's go." It is two consenting adults deciding to do this. I have been in that situation on adult sites before and I have met with people and almost every single one I decided not to have sex with and that was my right. Each time we went out for a drink to see if we clicked. I am picky and turned almost everyone down. I never said I would have sex with them but I did say I wasn't feeling it or they were married, or whatever the case was. Only one got pissy (the married one who said he was in an open marriage and when I asked to speak to his wife he said it would not be a good idea) and the rest moved on. We are all adults.

If the girls said they were DTF and then changed their minds, the whole agreement changed. There was no relationship (most of the time) and so there was nothing to stay for. In that case, if I was the girl I would not be bewildered, I would understand we were both there for sex, one of us changed our minds and so they other left. End of story. No biggie.

Now if you were in a committed relationship and she was tired one night and you decided to just leave and never see her again, I think that would be a different story for me. This? Not so much. You both agreed on what would happen and it didn't, so you left. Ok.

If those two factors aren't there, there is no consent.

"OK, whatever" or "I give up" are not consent. Those are surrender, and surrender is never consent.

and sex then follows, do you believe that a rape prosecution should ensue? I agree that badgering someone until they "give in" and unenthusiastically agree to sex is obnoxious behavior, but should it result in criminal prosecution?

I think we tend to focus too much on what constitutes illegality rather than the unethical. What this produces is a population which only doesn't do something because it may have personal consequence rather than not doing something because it is clearly ethically wrong and will harm someone else.

I think specifically on this debate about sexual assault, the rhetoric surrounds too closely what constitutes legal and illegal acts which draws participants toward the upper and lower limits of the law while making them blind to the ethics of their actions.

Exactly. Just because what you're doing isn't technically a crime doesn't mean it's okay.

but should not be criminally prosecuted.

SO sick of guys focusing solely on whether their behavior is illegal or not. Like that's the bar for their actions - that they can't actually be thrown in fucking jail for it.

I was 20 (male). A friend brought a friend. We drank A LOT. I ever banged my head against the coffe table during a joke of some sort. Just hurt, no blood. We all went to bed. Separate rooms. Later, I was getting a BJ from the girl I never met before that night. I was groggi and drunk, and she kissed and had me go down on her and whatever else. Did that girl rape me? Should I have pressed charges?

And yes, you could certainly have pressed charges. And you most certainly should have gone to be tested for STDs in the aftermath of this incident.

However. Unfortunately being a guy in the late 90's, I would have been looked at like a freak by practically everyone. I am glad things are getting a bit better today. I feel for woman especially because even today they are not taken seriously. The only thing I can say for myself is that I would NEVER force sex on anyone EVER!

Last edited Sat Jun 21, 2014, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)

as though your experience was somehow something to envy. Kind of like the reaction from idiots when a female schoolteacher rapes a 15 or 16 year old boy, when they say something like how lucky the kid was.

He certainly didn't tell you enough about that night to say he was raped.

and (3) they wake up to find someone performing a sexual act upon them, without having given any consent, there is still doubt in your mind as to whether this constitutes rape? Wow. I really and truly have no response to that.

He didn't say that.

He didn't even say this, they bang their head and are passed out. You added that in.

I would love to have her as a client if that is the evidence you want to present.

I simply don't see how a person could give informed consent in such a situation. Your attitude exemplifies the kind of skepticism that makes people unwilling to come forward and report such incidents.

so if I am the reason that people do not report such incidents then good I can live with that.

Unless there is more to the story than what you've said so far.

Turn it around and pretend it was a girl passed out/sleeping in her room and she woke up to a guy going down on her. She was drunk. Clearly she had not consented because you all went to sleep in different rooms and did not even talk about it. Yes, that is rape. Having sex with someone without some sort of consent is rape. You do not have consent just because you are a guy. She raped you.

I am quite positive if I woke up to someone doing that to me I could roll over and call the cops and tell them I was sexually assaulted. And I would be offended, quite honestly, if even if I woke up to my husband doing this to me. If I do not indicate to someone I am interest in having sex then they have no right to force themselves on me sexually while I am asleep.

Some people' attitudes may differ on whether it was sexual assault once you started participating but walking up to someone you have never met before, orally doing things to your genitals, is way over the line!

applied it. I said nothing about prosecution. Please read my words, rather than reading into them. Thanks.

Nobody should behave in the way I described, ethically or morally. But nobody should be criminally prosecuted in that kind of scenario.

A no of any kind has always meant just that for me. Whenever "No" occurred, that was my cue to stop doing what I was doing and do something else. Whining or pleading or convincing never seemed right to me, given my insistence on enthusiastic consent in all sexual situations. Anything less than that and things weren't going to continue to move ahead.

For me, it's just an ethical issue, and has nothing to do with legality in any way. I can't imagine that I'd ever be in a situation where legality was even part of a decision with regard to sexual activity.

So, I have difficulty in trying to come up with any sort of legal argument for any of it.

If someone asks you politely for your wallet, with no threat nor intimidation attached, and you say "No" and refuse to give it to him, you have not been robbed. The person is allowed to ask...even if the request is absurd and unreasonable.

If this same person asks you for your wallet a second time and you reply: "Fine. Take it. Just go away and leave me alone" and then throw your wallet at the guy, you still haven't been robbed. You consented.

The fact that he badgered you into consenting is rude...but you still had the option to refuse and chose not to do so.

in the parking lot of an electronics store. (This was in the pre-Amazon era). A woman approached me and started asking me for some money. At first I said "no", but she kept on asking and asking, and I just wanted to concentrate on loading up my car, so I eventually gave in and handed over 5 bucks just to get rid of her. I was never threatened by her and there was never any question of violence or coercion; it was just nag, nag, nag. I do not think that this woman was guilty of robbery, or indeed of any crime.

Surely the cops could find something she violated :p

acceding to the alternative, serious bodily harm, does NOT become 'Yes.'

If I have to "talk" them into it, I don't think that would qualify as them saying yes. If it's somebody I'm in a relationship, there will be other times. If I did one night stands (which I don't due to my own personal choice), there would be other women.

Remind me again how DU doesn't have a misogyny problem?