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ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 07:15 PM Jun 2014

Why I fled libertarianism — and became a liberal

I was a Ron Paul delegate back in 2008 -- now I'm a Democrat. Here's my personal tale of disgust and self-discovery
Edwin Lyngar




The night before the 2008 Nevada Republican convention, the Ron Paul delegates all met at a Reno high school. Although I’d called myself a libertarian for almost my entire adult life, it was my first exposure to the wider movement.

And boy, was it a circus. Many members of the group were obsessed with the gold standard, the Kennedy assassination and the Fed. Although Libertarians believe government is incompetent, many of them subscribe to the most fringe conspiracy theories imaginable. Airplanes are poisoning America with chemicals (chemtrails) or the moon landings were faked. Nothing was too far out. A great many of them really think that 9-11 was an inside job. Even while basking in the electoral mainstream, the movement was overflowing with obvious hokum.

During the meeting, a Ron Paul staffer, a smart and charismatic young woman, gave a tip to the group for the upcoming convention.

“Dress normal,” she said. “Wear suits, and don’t bring signs or flags. Don’t talk about conspiracy theories. Just fit in.” Her advice was the kind you might hear given to an insane uncle at Thanksgiving.


More of his story at the link: http://www.salon.com/2013/12/28/why_i_fled_libertarianism_and_became_a_liberal/
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nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
1. "Even while basking in the electoral mainstream, the movement was overflowing with obvious hokum."
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jun 2014

This describes (and explains) so much of contemporary American politics. A scary thought, really.

"Her advice was the kind you might hear given to an insane uncle at Thanksgiving."

We probably all have that "insane uncle" or some equivalent. And chances are he voted for Ron Paul.

smallcat88

(426 posts)
2. The staffers advice
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 07:36 PM
Jun 2014

also proves they're serious. They know they are a fringe element but want, outwardly, to attract the mainstream voters. A failing that seems to finally be coming back to bite the tea party in the ass.

Not that I ever would have voted for him, but thanks for the warning!

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
3. I find it interesting how those who does not belive in the gubermint wants to run for
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 07:48 PM
Jun 2014

Offices which is on the gubermint payroll. They want to control the gubermint and its agencies but don't like interference. Can't have this one both ways. Ron Paul always bragged he never voted for any spending but attached earmarks to bills he knew was going to pass and ran home with the money. His districts was nicely supported by the industries in the area but "needed" the extra money.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
6. Libertarians want a government small enough to fit in a vagina, so they'll have time to stone gays:
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 09:06 PM
Jun 2014
Oklahoma Tea Party candidate endorses stoning homosexuals to death

June 11, 2014
By Anomaly

OklahomaTea Party candidate Scott Esk touts his Conservative bonafides on his site which include being a ‘Constitutionalist,’ ‘believing rights come from God,’ being ’100% pro-life’ and of course on Facebook he believes in stoning homosexuals, which sort of throws that whole ‘pro-life’ thing out the window.

On Facebook someone asked Esk, “So just to be clear, you think we should execute homosexuals (presumably by stoning)?”

Esk responded, “I think we would be totally in the right to do it. That goes against some parts of libertarianism, I realize, and I’m largely libertarian, but ignoring as a nation things that are worthy of death is very remiss.”

Scott Esk is another Conservative who believes in Biblical law.

http://freakoutnation.com/2014/06/11/oklahoma-tea-party-candidate-endorses-stoning-homosexuals-to-death/

Yes, they do hang out with really hateful people and i've dealt with a lot of them in real life. Their arrogance and hostility to anyone else's rights is breathtaking.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
8. No, they are very selective about what is and isn't human. They regard a lot of people as inferiors:
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 09:56 PM
Jun 2014
Libertarians hold up Plato and Aristotle as 'significant thinkers.'

Here it is their defense of inequality. Both men lived at the top of a society built on the backs of slaves. They were in the 'leisure class' with plenty of fre time to talk.

I found the views of their idolized philosophers on slavery, and why they considered it a natural state for some people. Not them, or course. Also they lumped in all those conquered by war and all women as having been born to be slaves. And in their writings, they said should have no voice in their society, nor any right to decent treatment.

This was the basis of the Confederacy, that blacks and other groups were born to be slaves, this is why Paul and other Libertarians are labeled racists by the SPLC:

http://newsone.com/1748295/top-10-racist-ron-paul-friends-supporters/

Where I went is a long read, but I'll explain more further down:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014260932#post149

It's the libertarian version of freedom, as described Lincoln, that they want the liberty to own other people as slaves to serve their own interests to make them rich.

Plato excused / justified slavery:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2180538?uid=3739960&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102597678397

Know how the RW insists the USA is a 'republic' and not a 'democracy'? Limited government is all they are selling, not the Constitution, which says to look out for the general welfare.

They and Libertarians say 'democracy'is 'mob rule' as it increases the power of the inferior. Romans used the term 'democrats' as a perjorative since they tried to lift up the working class of the day. Sound familiar?

More Plato here:


http://www.friesian.com/plato.htm

Now to Aristotle:


Some aspects of Aristotle's theory of slavery

Slavery -- natural or conventional?


Aristole's theory of slavery is found in Book I, Chapters iii through vii of the Politics. and in Book VII of the Nicomachean Ethics.

Aristotle raises the question of whether slavery is natural or conventional. He asserts that the former is the case. So, Aristotle's theory of slavery holds that some people are naturally slaves and others are naturally masters. Thus he says:

"But is there any one thus intended by nature to be a slave, and for whom such a condition is expedient and right, or rather is not all slavery a violation of nature?

There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule."

This suggests that anyone who is ruled must be a slave, which does not seem at all right. Still, given that this is so he must state what characteristics a natural slave must have -- so that he or she can be recognized as such a being. Who is marked out for subjugation, and who for rule? This is where the concept of "barbarian" shows up in Aristotle's account. Aristotle says:

"But among barbarians no distinction is made between women and slaves, because there is no natural ruler among them: they are a community of slaves, male and female. Wherefore the poets say,

'It is meet that Hellenes should rule over barbarians';

as if they thought that the barbarian and the slave were by nature one."

So men rule naturally over women, and Greeks over barbarians! But what is it which makes a barbarian a slave? Here is what Aristotle says:

"Where then there is such a difference as that between soul and body, or between men and animals (as in the case of those whose business is to use their body, and who can do nothing better), the lower sort are by nature slaves, and it is better for them as for all inferiors that they should be under the rule of a master. For he who can be, and therefore is, another's and he who participates in rational principle enough to apprehend, but not to have, such a principle, is a slave by nature. Whereas the lower animals cannot even apprehend a principle; they obey their instincts. And indeed the use made of slaves and of tame animals is not very different; for both with their bodies minister to the needs of life. Nature would like to distinguish between the bodies of freemen and slaves, making the one strong for servile labor, the other upright, and although useless for such services, useful for political life in the arts both of war and peace. But the opposite often happens--that some have the souls and others have the bodies of freemen. And doubtless if men differed from one another in the mere forms of their bodies as much as the statues of the Gods do from men, all would acknowledge that the inferior class should be slaves of the superior. And if this is true of the body, how much more just that a similar distinction should exist in the soul? but the beauty of the body is seen, whereas the beauty of the soul is not seen. It is clear, then, that some men are by nature free, and others slaves, and that for these latter slavery is both expedient and right."

So the theory is that natural slaves should have powerful bodies but be unable to rule themselves. Thus, they become very much like beasts of burden, except that unlike these beasts human slaves recognize that they need to be ruled. The trouble with this theory, as Aristotle quite explicitly states, is that the right kind of souls and bodies do not always go together! So, one could have the soul of a slave and the body of a freeman, and vice versa!

Nonetheless, apparently because there are some in whom the body and soul are appropriate to natural slavery, that is a strong body and a weak soul, Aristotle holds that there are people who should naturally be slaves. It also seems that men naturally rule women and that bararians are naturally more servile than Greeks! This seems like an odd, indeed arbitrary, way for the virtues of the soul to be distributed! Las Casas deals with a similar problem in regard to the native peoples of the Americas...


Contrast the ancient 1% with:

...John Locke's theory of slavery in The Second Treatise of Civil Government Locke does not believe in natural slaves or in the conventional view that all prisoners of war can be legitimately enslaved. He is a just war theorist who explicitly rejects the doctrine that might makes right.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/distance_arc/las_casas/Aristotle-slavery.html

I don't idolize people who defended slavery in the exact same terms as the Confederacy, in their claims of others' innate inferiority. The Founders owned slaves but realized if equality was going to mean anything it would have to be eliminated.

The South rejected the idea of human equality by the same rationale as Plato and Aristotle. This is libertarian tea party ideas of governance ignoring the rights of those whom the powerful regard as innately inferior and put on Earth for their use.

This is so similar to the ideology of the GOP and theocrats, there is little difference to me. They're confident that they will never face what they are willing to inflict on others.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
10. Thanks,very enlightening, guess there are many reasons why I will remain a Democrat
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 10:30 PM
Jun 2014

All of my life but the I like being a Democrat.

tblue37

(65,357 posts)
4. He quotes a Ron Paul campaign operative at the convention:
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 07:49 PM
Jun 2014
“Bring in the clowns,” she said, and smiled before I lost her in the mass of people.

I will never forget that moment: Bring in the clowns. At the time, I considered myself a thoughtful person, yet I could hardly claim to be one if you judged me by the company I kept. The young lady knew something I had not yet learned: most of our supporters were totally fucking nuts <emphasis added>.

Tikki

(14,557 posts)
5. Totally fu*kin' nuts and mean spirited...
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 07:56 PM
Jun 2014

Many grab onto one issue in that collective and beat it to death.
I hate it that some here ramp up that group's rhetoric.

Tikki

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
9. I covered a Ron Paul rally in 2012 for the paper
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 10:08 PM
Jun 2014

it was fun... especially when you have the other crazies counter demonstrating them (John Birchers)... but both had gold standard crap, just different take on it, on their tables.

I listened to far more CTs in one afternoon than I have heard in years.

It was fun though. You hardly get to mix with that many crazy uncles in an afternoon. (And I mean in the 20K estimated figure)

Oh and this needs noting. Ron Paul is an extremely charismatic speaker... as in very. If his son is even half as charismatic as dad, could be a problem. And this is to the photography crowd, he also photographs well.

Cha

(297,230 posts)
11. Good for Edwin Lyngar! from your link, Z.. "If you think selfishness and cruelty are fantastic..
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 10:43 PM
Jun 2014
"If you think that selfishness and cruelty are fantastic personal traits, you might be a libertarian. In the movement no one will ever call you an asshole, but rather, say you believe in radical individualism."

Thank you.
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