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Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 02:45 PM Jun 2014

Given the SCOTUS ruling today, is harrassment now legal?

Does someone gettng in you face, with an open carry weapon slung over his shoulder, now considered free speech? Is there no zone of safety or personal space that cannot be intruded on now?

Not sure how this decision can be applied. Interested in comments.

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Given the SCOTUS ruling today, is harrassment now legal? (Original Post) Skidmore Jun 2014 OP
Harassment is a crime Boom Sound 416 Jun 2014 #1
A good test for this would be for a bunch of MineralMan Jun 2014 #2
If the police do arrest dsc Jun 2014 #6
Yes, but you'd still be arrested. MineralMan Jun 2014 #7
frankly I highly doubt it dsc Jun 2014 #9
See, I think you're wrong. MineralMan Jun 2014 #10
In NC you can carry a weapon unless the place asks you not to dsc Jun 2014 #12
You wouldn't be carrying a gun into the church. MineralMan Jun 2014 #13
that might well be legal here if it is concealed dsc Jun 2014 #14
Well, I was assuming that open carry was OK where such a protest MineralMan Jun 2014 #15
No, it's not. nt LittleBlue Jun 2014 #3
I don't understand how alsame Jun 2014 #4
Exactly. To me this is harrassment. Skidmore Jun 2014 #8
I would feel threatened too. nt alsame Jun 2014 #11
I agree Johonny Jun 2014 #23
No. Harassment was not the criminal provision at issue in the case onenote Jun 2014 #5
it's the period of time thing- most cops will not do anything if it is a one brief encounter, if bettyellen Jun 2014 #16
But this decision has no effect on that. NYC Liberal Jun 2014 #18
I'm thinking assault is the correct term, and yeah- it was largely allowed. bettyellen Jun 2014 #22
Assault is nowhere near the correct term. NYC Liberal Jun 2014 #25
well the police I discussed it with said the protesters were assaulting patients and harassing bettyellen Jun 2014 #27
Cops don't charge people with harassment for a one time brief encounter onenote Jun 2014 #19
that is what I was trying to say, yes. I think assault is the only applicable law that might apply.. bettyellen Jun 2014 #20
No. Not even close. The decision was a win for the First Amendment. NYC Liberal Jun 2014 #17
in the real world, cops allowed these folks close enough to feel their spittle and breath on your bettyellen Jun 2014 #21
Nothing good can come of this decision, IMHO. blue neen Jun 2014 #24
I would carry mace. moondust Jun 2014 #26
 

Boom Sound 416

(4,185 posts)
1. Harassment is a crime
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 02:52 PM
Jun 2014

So I think the answer is no.

That said. In another thread on the subject, states have some power to create buffer zones of their own.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
2. A good test for this would be for a bunch of
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 02:52 PM
Jun 2014

people to show up with semi-auto weapons on their backs on a Sunday in front of a church that supports this kind of anti-abortion protesting. Stand on the sidewalk and yell at the churchgoers as they show up for services. Carry signs with images of women who died during illegal abortions. Confront the churchgoers with loud free speech and call them names and tell them they need to abandon their beliefs and get right with atheism.

Tit for tat.

Here's what would happen: The police would come and arrest you or worse. I guarantee it.

That's how things work. It's OK to harass women seeking healthcare. Harass churchgoers who do and support that harassment, and you'll get hauled off to jail.

dsc

(52,166 posts)
6. If the police do arrest
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:21 PM
Jun 2014

and frankly I doubt they would, then the arrested people should sue using today's decision and others as precedent.

dsc

(52,166 posts)
9. frankly I highly doubt it
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:26 PM
Jun 2014

to name one rather famous example from my own back yard. Elizabeth Edwards funeral was protested by the WBC and they were right at the sidewalk in front of said church, not one single, solitary arrest was made.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
10. See, I think you're wrong.
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:29 PM
Jun 2014

It's a church. The police would be there ASAP. And they wouldn't know about the SCOTUS ruling or really much of anything. You can carry a firearm openly into your local Target. A church is going to be treated differently, I guarantee. As far as I know, nobody's tested the idea. Perhaps they will, following this decision. We'll see.

dsc

(52,166 posts)
12. In NC you can carry a weapon unless the place asks you not to
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:33 PM
Jun 2014

or is on a specific list. I don't recall if churches are on that list or not. It was a recent law passed by our gop legislature. But to be fair, to my knowledge, no anti abortion protesters have carried guns up to now (at least not as a general matter or course).

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
13. You wouldn't be carrying a gun into the church.
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:35 PM
Jun 2014

You'd be carrying it on the public sidewalk outside of the church.

dsc

(52,166 posts)
14. that might well be legal here if it is concealed
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:36 PM
Jun 2014

I don't think we have open carry here. but the legislative session still has a few days left so one never knows.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
15. Well, I was assuming that open carry was OK where such a protest
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:38 PM
Jun 2014

happened. You wouldn't want to violate any laws, after all. If open carry isn't legal, then it shouldn't be done.

alsame

(7,784 posts)
4. I don't understand how
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:16 PM
Jun 2014

"free speech" means the right to approach and have a conversation with a specific person who does not want to talk with you.

Shouting at me from across the street is one thing, getting close enough to touch me is different.

Johonny

(20,870 posts)
23. I agree
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 08:07 PM
Jun 2014

You show up at your doctor and have a gang of people call you names, try to hand you things you don't want, etc... Needless to say you feel self conscious enough seeing a doctor as it is. To have to go through a wave of anti-medical procedure idiots every time you want to is harassment.

There are public spaces and public officials where the court has allowed "safe zones" because of the real or perceived threat. So clearly the court recognizes not every protestor is protest is equal already.

The idea that any group of people can get between you and your doctor is harassment whether they are handing you a pamphlet or spitting in your face. The "golden wow this is great for free speech" is not very believable. The fact people were dieing is the part of the reasoning for making these laws kind of suggests these sites required special protection.

What good is a right to an abortion is you can't get one. It seems like another court decision by a court that lives in fantasy land and not the real world which needs frame work laws to protect peoples rights. Protesting a whole 35 feet a way is not a hardship. Getting shot dead going to your doctor is. If people can't see it... I don't care. I live in the real world where people are actually being harassed horribly and inhumanly just for going to a doctor. It is disgusting and not a triumph of "free" speech.

onenote

(42,729 posts)
5. No. Harassment was not the criminal provision at issue in the case
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:21 PM
Jun 2014

Here is how Massachusetts defines criminal harrassment:

Section 43A. (a) Whoever willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person, which seriously alarms that person and would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, shall be guilty of the crime of criminal harassment and shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment. The conduct or acts described in this paragraph shall include, but not be limited to, conduct or acts conducted by mail or by use of a telephonic or telecommunication device or electronic communication device including, but not limited to, any device that transfers signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data or intelligence of any nature transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, electromagnetic, photo-electronic or photo-optical system, including, but not limited to, electronic mail, internet communications, instant messages or facsimile communications.

Nothing in the Court's decision would suggest that harassment, as defined above, is protected speech.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
16. it's the period of time thing- most cops will not do anything if it is a one brief encounter, if
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:40 PM
Jun 2014

the victim is repeatedly harrassed, they will act. But these will be a series of one offs toward different people, and so they get away with it.

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
18. But this decision has no effect on that.
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:55 PM
Jun 2014

If police refuse to take harassment seriously or act on reports of it, then that's an entirely different problem that needs to be addressed.

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
25. Assault is nowhere near the correct term.
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 08:22 PM
Jun 2014

And assault and harassment are still crimes. Did you read the decision?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
27. well the police I discussed it with said the protesters were assaulting patients and harassing
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 08:47 PM
Jun 2014

clinic workers- but you know better? What is the correct term then?

Not sure what it has to do with the court decision, except they will again have more proximity to people trying to work at or visit the clinic, and probably be back in force after years of losing interest. They did not like being across the street because it was harder to intimidate people. Not as much fun for them. And laws frequently don't get enforced like they should. At best they would cajole protesters to pull back a bit, not to touch or hit anyone with their signs and posters. I am hoping NJ keeps it bigger buffer zones because all of them were there to intimidate, and no- the law does not stop them. That is a fantasy scenario.

onenote

(42,729 posts)
19. Cops don't charge people with harassment for a one time brief encounter
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 06:29 PM
Jun 2014

because a one time brief encounter isn't harassment under the law.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
20. that is what I was trying to say, yes. I think assault is the only applicable law that might apply..
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 07:00 PM
Jun 2014

I'm trying to remember how it worked, but we had these old people spitting in our faces and the cops pretty much did nothing.
the only time they did anything was when they followed clinic workers into their parking lot and threatened them.

this was at the clinic that led to a NJSSC decision reaffirming the buffer zone. Once they were placed across the street, they slowed down and stopped coming. They didn't enjoy it as much as getting in people's faces.

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
17. No. Not even close. The decision was a win for the First Amendment.
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:53 PM
Jun 2014

Harassment and intimidation is still a crime. SCOTUS specifically said states can enact laws to that effect. They also said states can empower police to order crowds to disperse when they are blocking entrances.

What they did not allow is a law that says everyone has to stand back 35 feet before they've even done anything. And I agree with them. The decision says states can have restrictions, but those restrictions must be specific and target issues as they occur.

The buffer zones burden substantially more speech than nec­essary to achieve the Commonwealth’s asserted interests. Subsection (e) of the Act already prohibits deliberate obstruction of clinic en­ trances. Massachusetts could also enact legislation similar to the federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act of 1994, 18 U. S. C. §248(a)(1), which imposes criminal and civil sanctions for obstruct­ ing, intimidating, or interfering with persons obtaining or providing reproductive health services. Obstruction of clinic driveways can readily be addressed through existing local traffic ordinances. While the Commonwealth contends that individuals can inadvertently ob struct access to clinics simply by gathering in large numbers, that problem could be addressed through a law requiring crowds blocking a clinic entrance to disperse for a limited period when ordered to do so by the police. In any event, crowding appears to be a problem only at the Boston clinic, and even there, only on Saturday mornings.


In any event, to determine whether someone intends to block access to a clinic, a police officer need only order him to move; if he refuses, then there is no question that his continued conduct is knowing or in­ tentional.


Additionally, shouting and chanting are one form of protest but not the only. This particular case involved people who handed out literature. Handing out pamphlets is most certainly protected by the First Amendment and a law requiring people stand 35 feet away infringes on that right, particularly when it applies only to one specific group. Imagine a law that said you can't approach people to hand out anti-war literature or pamphlets about protecting the environment. Of course people also have the right to say "No thank you". After that of course harassment is still illegal just as it always has been. Going up to someone and "getting in their face", shouting at them, etc. can still be covered under existing laws that are perfectly constitutional.
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
21. in the real world, cops allowed these folks close enough to feel their spittle and breath on your
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 07:11 PM
Jun 2014

face, and to create a tight gauntlet that does indeed harass the clinic goers. I feel differently about harassing individuals who are seeking health care than I do about general protesting. In practice, it is really not the same thing. They are after individuals, and not the system.

I'm wondering if this will roll back our state supreme court decison from 92. because across the street was awesome.

blue neen

(12,327 posts)
24. Nothing good can come of this decision, IMHO.
Thu Jun 26, 2014, 08:20 PM
Jun 2014

The SCOTUS says the states are free to set up some type of buffer zones themselves. That's not going to happen. In many states, Republicans' extreme gerrymandering has resulted in Republican legislatures in Democratic voting states...Pennsylvania, for instance. They're not going to do a damn thing about protecting womens' rights.

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