I haven't been able to totally formulate it. But I think it has something to do with how you seem to treat these "poor souls" like aimless morons.

“aimless morons”..Are you nuts.. These are wonderful hard working people who have been subjected to just awful conditions in their home countries...The Church should be offering them solutions.
Birth Control would be a great start!!!

And, by the way, if they only have 2 or 3, they are likely already using contraception.

I am curious about who you think is to blame for the millions of poor non-Catholic US women who decide to have 2 or 3 children.

The whole freaking world should be educated to the merits of contraception..

Or do you think poor women aren't entitled to any children?

And who is responsible for non-Catholic poor women who decide to have 2 or 3 children?

You know as well as I do that most poor and destitute catholic families in central America follow church doctrine to the tee!!

If they really weren't using birth control, they'd be having many more than 2 or 3 children.

My parents had 5 babies in 6 years -- that isn't uncommon in women who aren't using birth control (or use "natural family planning.) Then my mother finally got an IUD.

But you don't think poor women are even entitled to 2 or 3, simply because they are poor.

makes no sense at all..

So women in these poor countries shouldn't be having children, even at a replacement level.

Apparently they don't deserve it.

And how will they be assisted in their old age? By the government that can't help them even now?

We were the ones overthrowing their governments, setting up our own puppet states, arming them, using the CIA and special forces to train them. Then unleashing our war on drugs to keep them under control.

I have a hispanic name. I blame the drug war for most of the issues. It is our fault. As much as i dislike the church, i cannot blame them for the refugee situation.

Did you have access to birth control if you wanted it, and adequate pre-natal care?

The drug wars definitely play a part, as did the Reagan-era covert actions in the area. However, the notion that women must have "as many children as the Lord sends" is behind a lot of the poverty that lead to these conditions.

I use birth control, otherwise i'd have ten. And 2 or 3 is not as many as the lord sends. But i agree that atheism has helped me avoid the extra stress of church people monitoring my reproductive life.



FIVE THOUSANDTH POST!!!!!!

You use them well.

The Catholic Church isn't preventing women from getting birth control. The vast majority of Catholics use it.

Its like they don’t trust my motives.. I just feel so heartbroken viewing the horrible images coming out of the S.West...

I hope you enjoy a nice fourth of july weekend.

of taking care of them.?. Between the drugs, smugglers and corruption in their home countries this has turned into a very sad and horrible situation..

The things that are done to women and children in times of war and violence are so horrifying that we would curse the women for NOT taking their children and running. Much of that violence is cause by OUR drug war.

The Church has to bear a lot of responsibility for this.. People in poor countries all over the world are taught at early years that procreation is an important part of their obligation to God..

Those women are my age. Many catholics use birth control religiously. I blame the US for starting a drug war, and not fixing the problems we cause, and starting more shit all the time. The catholic church did not cause the violence and was not the catalyst for it. We were the catalyst for the violence that is driving the women from their homes. Those women are doing the right thing. 2 or 3 children is normal and reasonable. They weren't necessarily poor when they had them and even if they were, so what? They're here now. They need to eat and be safe. And if they got over the birder to a church they would get a meal and sone help and some compassion, not admonishments for having babies while being poor. Fuck that.

i would assume if they only have 2 to 3 kids they probably ARE using birth control .

For God’s Sakes do you realize how expensive it is to have children in this Country?

Central America’s poverty rate is one of the highest in the world..

for women in the US .

where they are living, since they had those children?

So should women in these countries just stop having children at all?

That hardly has anything to do with contraception.

Have done a great deal of good in Central America. Jesuits and Maryknolls have lost their lives teaching and providing medical care to the indigenous poor. The Church deserves all kinds of blame, but their missions in Central America represent not only the best of Catholicism but of humanitarianism.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the US govt for waging decades of war on the people of Central America.

“The last Confession” is a terrific book and play which illustrates how the church ignored many of the most important elements of the horrors perpetrated by right wing leaders of these countries..

Much of the hierarchy, yes, but even not all of them. Archbishop Oscar Romero was famously assassinated for speaking out against the military. Liberation theologians were active throughout Central America, and their bodies are among the mass graves of indigenous pessants slaughtered by the military governments of El Salvador and Guatemala.

was met with horrible push back from controlling conservatives in the Church.

Yes many in the Church have been wonderful to the people/citizens they serve..in these Countries..
Just their doctrine of no contraception under any circumstances has not changed for Centuries..

There is no emoticon to signal the volume of fucking eyeroll I have for your despicable post.

Puke times 1,000,000.

You obviously have no problem with the Church not educating their followers to the dangers of
of not using contraceptives..So go ahead and puke all you want..

Have a splendid eve..

Exposed yourself this time. Have a nice night.

Racist and asinine arguments, for example.

would have such an effect on many in this thread.. I just did not want to engage in number focusing so I kept the number low.. Its not about the number, its about the lack of education these people have to birth control info..... and the Church hasn’t helped one single bit..

suffering. It is shameful.

When women can choose and plan their families, they can work, save and prepare the way to be good mothers. The Catholic Church does not encourage that approach.

It is a shame because the Catholic Church otherwise is a wonderful example of charity and love. But the policies toward women in general and especially regarding birth control are anything but charitable.

60% of Catholics in the US disagree with their church's teachings on birth control. I wonder what part of the other 40% are married and of child-bearing age. I bet it's not all that high.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/11/14/survey-says-catholics-are-becoming-less-catholic/


The path to the modern American family, with its 2.1 kids and dual incomes, winds its way back to the corn fields and cattle pastures of pre-Industrial Revolution times. Having a large family made common — and economic — sense for a couple whose livelihood came from the ground: More children meant more hands to sow and reap; they played an integral role in the family business. In 1865, 82 percent of the nation’s adolescents lived in families with five or more children. By 1930, the majority of minors had two or fewer siblings.

The stark drop in family size during that time period — from a median of 7.3 children per household to just 2.6 — was partly the result of moving from an agricultural economy to an industrial one. And during the industrial age, the economic hardships of the Great Depression left many couples unable to provide for several mouths. On its heels came World War II, with millions of young men serving overseas, their prayers focused on making it home rather than starting families.

. . . .

That “contraceptive lifestyle” appears to have become predominant: According to a 2005 Harris Poll, 90 percent of Catholics (as compared with 93 percent of all Americans) support the use of contraception. In a 2005 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 78 percent of the U.S. Catholics surveyed said the next pope should allow Catholics to use birth control. And in 2006, the U.S. Catholic bishops released a document encouraging married child-bearing-age Catholics to embrace natural family planning, perhaps in response to surveys that show most Catholic couples use some form of artificial birth control.

http://publicaffairs.cua.edu/cuamag/sum07/features/bigfamiliasaurus.html

That article paints a positive view of the large, Catholic family. I have seen some pretty miserable children from those families. It would not be easy to fit 10 children in a 500 square foot apartment that, in Los Angeles, rents for $1500 a month in my lower middle-class community. If you got your apartment years ago, you may have room for more than 3 or four children, but you probably won't. And daddy had better be able to earn enough to provide for all those kids, because mom is going to be very busy just having babies. A large family sounds great but it isn't really practical for most people no matter what their religion. The article glosses over the difficulties saying you have to have "faith." Nonsense. You have to have enough money too.

Central America is moving away from labor intensive farming to modern life. The large families that Catholicism favors are just not economically viable. The Catholic Church could encourage couples to have the number of children they can responsibly raise. It should not make people feel guilty for using birth control. It is just encouraging prostitution as an alternative to responsible sex within marriage.

I should add that although I am a Unitarian I strongly support the current Pope's stance on poverty. I am very familiar with and admire the outstanding charitable programs of the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church's stances on women in the church leadership and on birth control and divorce do not further the economic fairness and charity toward the poor and needy. The stance on women and family issues harms the poor more than anything other than alcohol and drugs.

If you have time take a look

Controlling the Means of Reproduction: An Interview with Michelle Goldberg

freshwest deserves the credit for the link.

It should stand as what it is: awful.

So the Church has no role in educating these people to the positives of contraception..??

"the Church", whatever it is "educates them" or not.
It has nothing to do with me.

Women who only have 2 or 3 kids are most likely using birth control, whether or not they listen to the Catholic Church.

But you don't think poor women are entitled to have even any. That seems to be your bottom line.

The Church is not educating people in these countries of the danger of not using birth control methods.. But ultimately it is up to the individual..

birth control, or any other secular topic.

So maybe they're actually promoting it.

and other countries in europe ?

same reason you get some eastern europeans moving towards the west ?

same reason you had people from oklahoma go west in hte 30s

that it be understood, in what way the USA has made conditions.

I’m just pointing out much of their impoverishment is caused by the lack of family planning and the Church’s stubbornness in not engaging in such matters..

look at Haiti which was full of religious missionaries with a weak ineffective govt. and look what happened when the earthquake happened.

contrast this with Japan which has a stronger govt but less religion.

The mothers send them here to get away from violence and gangs?

Don't they know anything about the violence and gangs we have here?

I favor giving citizenship to the youths who came here illegally but have been here, have been educated here and feel "at home" here, but we really cannot take in all these children, teenagers mostly who don't know our language well, who will not be able to get jobs with livable wages. It's a nightmare.

Immigrating and starting with nothing, no education, just willing hands was possible as recently as the 1940s, but it is very difficult today. We already have so many immigrants who are unprepared to compete in the workplace. The technology we had in the 80s was a big shock to me when I returned to the US after living in Europe for years and years.

I live in LA. It's really hard to be an illegal immigrant here. (I am not speaking from personal experience but from what I see in my community.)

than citizens. you probably haven't seen the hordes of comments online complaining "Obama lets illegals have more rights than productive tax-paying US citizens."

Conservatives' opinions are based on prejudice, not information. They are downright stupid.

in those cases we know they don't have any freeom and are told to say those things and their lives are always at risk.

but the same crazy shit comes out of wingnut mouths. they are saying obama is bringing these people here and giving them money and health care and Obama is doing it on purpose to take away and destroy their(racist wingnut) communities.

How about our shitty imperialist adventures that have destabilized LatAm governments?

Having kids didn't cause the humanitarian crisis at the border. Stupid post is stupid.