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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:24 AM Jul 2014

Yes, Nader cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000.

It's surprising that, even with 14 years of hindsight, some people are still trying to deny this.

That doesn't mean that there aren't other people to blame. Events can have more than just one cause. The primary blame for the Iraq War lies with Bush and Cheney, not Nader. The primary blame for these 5-4 SCOTUS decisions lies with the Justices that voted, and the presidents that nominated them. And so on.

Also, yes, Gore could have run a better campaign. The Gore team could have fought harder and made better decisions during the recount battle. Etc.

Still, the fact of the matter is, without Nader taking away votes from Gore, Gore would have been president. Period.

The thing is, Nader is "supposed" to be on our side. He claimed that he was running to support liberal goals. But what he did actually ended up harming liberal goals. And it was pretty clear at the time that there was a good chance that this would happen.

Why does this matter? Because there are still people talking about not voting for the Democratic nominee or voting for a third party as a way to try to punish the Dems for not being liberal enough. There are still people making the same kind of blatantly false arguments that Nader did -- about how the parties aren't all that different and there's no point in supporting a corporate Dem and how he didn't think the Supreme Court nominees from Bush or Gore would be all that different, etc.

It matters because some people continue to believe that abandoning the Democratic party in major elections is somehow a good thing for liberal causes.

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Yes, Nader cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000. (Original Post) DanTex Jul 2014 OP
Well said. Thanks. nt el_bryanto Jul 2014 #1
Badly said. AL GORE won the election fasttense Jul 2014 #176
Exactly, Nader is a Republican diversion. I can't believe people still spew these lies. n/t A Simple Game Jul 2014 #198
I can, there is an election coming up. zeemike Jul 2014 #213
People need a scapegoat. Nader fits the bill. [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2014 #218
The Election wouldn't have been close enough to steal without Nader. el_bryanto Jul 2014 #257
Still stolen and that is the crime and should be the focus rather than seen as secondary. TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #292
Neither uncomfortable nor accurate. merrily Jul 2014 #322
The fix was in no matter what Nader did or did not do. fasttense Jul 2014 #361
This assumes that Nader's votes would have been votes for Gore... elzenmahn Jul 2014 #365
The fact that you hated Gore kind of says more than you might have intended it too. nt el_bryanto Jul 2014 #371
I'm fully aware of what I said... elzenmahn Jul 2014 #376
Recced with a kick MohRokTah Jul 2014 #2
Which states would Gore have won if Nader had not taken votes? JDPriestly Jul 2014 #225
Florida would have been enough by itself. JPZenger Jul 2014 #234
In case this is an attempt to bully people into supporting Hillary Clinton, count me out. JDPriestly Jul 2014 #250
Floriduh. nt WhiteTara Jul 2014 #287
And Gore would have gotten those votes if he had geared his choice of vice president JDPriestly Jul 2014 #293
Thanks, most excellent post - eom dreamnightwind Jul 2014 #356
Definitely agree... DoctorRobert Jul 2014 #373
Big ol' kick and and Rec. riqster Jul 2014 #3
No, he really didn't. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #4
Nader bucks the system and they hate him for that Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #5
Nope, Nader LIED to naive supporters like I was. "Not a dime's worth of difference", remember? MH1 Jul 2014 #359
Yes he did. DanTex Jul 2014 #12
It's simple-minded stupidity to assume that all of those votes would have gone to Gore instead. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #14
Not all, but most, and enough to avoid a recount. It's not stupidity, it's what polls suggested. DanTex Jul 2014 #21
No, it isn't: Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #31
The best analysis I've seen suggests that Nader voters would have gone about 60-40 Dem. DanTex Jul 2014 #38
And most of the socialist/workers' party votes would probably have gone to Gore as well. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #44
At 60-40, Nader's vote had far more influence than the Socialist party votes would have. DanTex Jul 2014 #51
A lot of people would have just stayed home because merrily Jul 2014 #325
If more people were like Nader we would be far better off as a country. jtuck004 Jul 2014 #348
You're welcome. merrily Jul 2014 #351
I should have said merrily Jul 2014 #349
Yep dreamnightwind Jul 2014 #357
AL GORE WON the election, don't buy into the RepubliCON spin fasttense Jul 2014 #142
it appears they are selling it reddread Jul 2014 #185
Trying to sell it, anyway. merrily Jul 2014 #326
terrorism has no grip on me reddread Jul 2014 #334
Cowards die a thousand deaths while the brave die only once. merrily Jul 2014 #336
Yes, but it absolved Democrats from any culpability whatsoever. vi5 Jul 2014 #327
You assume that Nader voters would have voted for Gore. JDPriestly Jul 2014 #236
The analyses I've seen suggest that Nader voters would have gone about 60-40 for Gore. DanTex Jul 2014 #238
Let's pretend there was no Nader on the ballot. jeff47 Jul 2014 #16
Not likely at all actually. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #29
Reading. It's a nice thing to try sometimes. jeff47 Jul 2014 #41
I did read Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #56
I'm not saying they don't have the right to do so jeff47 Jul 2014 #62
Essentially, you are. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #104
People have the right to make decisions I don't like. jeff47 Jul 2014 #130
Gore's inability to make a compelling argument to the contrary isn't Nader's fault. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #172
And as I said above, Nader was one piece of the puzzle. jeff47 Jul 2014 #179
Good point about serving to excuse Gore's shortcomings and the malfeasance of the Republicans. A Simple Game Jul 2014 #313
On another thread, Jeff347 accused me of not reading in merrily Jul 2014 #207
"Vote like an idealist in primaries." merrily Jul 2014 #32
Nope, not a joke. jeff47 Jul 2014 #47
Okay, then disingenous. merrily Jul 2014 #71
Nope. jeff47 Jul 2014 #117
This is another lie, Jeff merrily Jul 2014 #190
Then why bring them up? jeff47 Jul 2014 #215
You already settled that to your own satisfaction, Jeff347. merrily Jul 2014 #256
This ^ ^ ^ Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jul 2014 #345
Nader cost Gore votes and Gore had to adjust his campaign because of him. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #37
Yes, he really did. gcomeau Jul 2014 #127
AL Gore DID WIN THE ELECTION fasttense Jul 2014 #129
Also more democrats voted Glaisne Jul 2014 #153
A friend of mine is an example of that. thucythucy Jul 2014 #221
What bullshit*... lame54 Jul 2014 #6
Yes, events can have multiple causes. Nader was a big one, but there are others. DanTex Jul 2014 #18
dream on reddread Jul 2014 #35
Don't necessarily disagree rpannier Jul 2014 #354
PLUS ONE, a whole bunch! Enthusiast Jul 2014 #121
^^^this^^^ progressoid Jul 2014 #194
Spot on. wundermaus Jul 2014 #208
hell, when it's that close, you could argue that bad sushi cost us the election unblock Jul 2014 #7
There is always noise. But Nader wasn't noise. Nader was signal, and in the wrong direction. DanTex Jul 2014 #19
Dems who voted for Nader are a problem. Those who voted for Bush are not a problem? eridani Jul 2014 #381
I subscribe to your explanation. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #134
Damned evil sushi. I knew it! merrily Jul 2014 #178
"Nader is 'supposed' to be on our side". The same could be said about Gore. Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2014 #8
This has been your daily pragmatic two-minutes of hate bobduca Jul 2014 #9
You forgot the photo leftstreet Jul 2014 #13
Boo Hiss! bobduca Jul 2014 #25
Where were you Tennessee, could have used you. . nt clarice Jul 2014 #10
Nope! He still didn't. Bush stole it with help from Harris and 5 justices. morningfog Jul 2014 #11
Exactly fasttense Jul 2014 #151
Gore lost because he could not get a majority of the voters in his home state to vote for him. Jenoch Jul 2014 #15
No he didn't. nt City Lights Jul 2014 #17
I went out of my way to say that it wasn't all Nader's fault. DanTex Jul 2014 #24
True, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #20
Remove any of the factors and the 536 votes go away. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #364
What Pins The Culpability On Nader, Sir, Is That He Was The Novel Factor The Magistrate Jul 2014 #374
Nader was among the last of the factors leading to Gore's defeat Orrex Jul 2014 #22
It depends what you mean by "chiefly responsible". DanTex Jul 2014 #30
As long as we allow a range of decisive factors, then I agree Orrex Jul 2014 #34
One reason that identifying the Nader factor is helpful is to prevent something like this DanTex Jul 2014 #45
If it gets out the vote, then I'm all in favor of it. Orrex Jul 2014 #50
So your solution to the claim that the Dems are too corporatist is to drag out the boogeyman? winter is coming Jul 2014 #72
I also feel that the Democrats are too corporatist. DanTex Jul 2014 #77
Every time we lessen that difference, we shoot ourselves in the foot. winter is coming Jul 2014 #105
Single-issue corporatism voters would have been much better served by a Gore presidency. DanTex Jul 2014 #113
"Single-issue corporatism voters would have been much better served by a Gore presidency" winter is coming Jul 2014 #163
And the Nader voters were wrong. DanTex Jul 2014 #174
Please tell me you know corporatism is not a single issue, but affects all. merrily Jul 2014 #175
Of course. All the more reason that arguing that Bush and Gore were the same was stupid. DanTex Jul 2014 #183
Huh? Then why did you say "Of course?" when I posted merrily Jul 2014 #266
I agree that corporatism affects many issues. DanTex Jul 2014 #271
I'll take it up with both of you, because you went along with the idea merrily Jul 2014 #278
I agree with you. DanTex Jul 2014 #280
I don't know that. Neither do you. No one can know it. merrily Jul 2014 #283
We can be pretty confident of it, based on where the two stood on the issues. DanTex Jul 2014 #284
Sorry, but, only in your imagination, can you be confident. merrily Jul 2014 #291
Corporatism is not a single issue. Please see Reply 278. merrily Jul 2014 #281
True enough. n/t winter is coming Jul 2014 #282
Hello! My voter registration is not a marriage vow. merrily Jul 2014 #149
+1. I'm a member, not a captive, of the Democratic party. winter is coming Jul 2014 #171
in the time line of events happening Nader happened first so It is hard put to make him last. Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #109
Al Gore won the vote fasttense Jul 2014 #184
Poorly constructed and self-contradictory position. Orsino Jul 2014 #23
The existence of other factors doesn't change the fact that, if Nader was not on the ballot, DanTex Jul 2014 #27
Stupid sophistry. Orsino Jul 2014 #33
It's not sophistry, it's factual. DanTex Jul 2014 #40
So why not start another thread about all the other factors? Why is this ONE factor, THE factor? progressoid Jul 2014 #202
Well, I haven't seen anyone on DU defend Scalia or Thomas or Katherine Harris. DanTex Jul 2014 #204
If this is a team sport, what do we do with those former Nader and Green voters? progressoid Jul 2014 #219
We vote for liberal candidates in primaries. DanTex Jul 2014 #222
Like Kucinich? Because, as it turned out, he was the only merrily Jul 2014 #305
Liberal isn't an all-or-nothing thing. There are degrees. DanTex Jul 2014 #308
I wouldn't know. I'm not a liberal. I'm a traditional Democrat. merrily Jul 2014 #310
Dupe. Self delete (even though saying it twice might help.) merrily Jul 2014 #311
No real Democrat denies the damage Nader did. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #26
lol reddread Jul 2014 #39
Few people at any point in the political spectrum would deny that. But if you feel guilty, you might stevenleser Jul 2014 #92
No real Scotsman denies the damage Nader did. U4ikLefty Jul 2014 #347
No true Scotsman uses the phrase "real Scotsman." Orsino Jul 2014 #380
Exactly mcar Jul 2014 #28
The problem is nothing is "somehow a good thing for liberal causes." merrily Jul 2014 #36
there are a lot of SCOTUS crimes to cover up this week reddread Jul 2014 #42
exactly. bbgrunt Jul 2014 #260
I'm not sure what you mean. DanTex Jul 2014 #61
Nader was a contributing factor and I just don't get those who can't see that. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #43
So 14 years later, we would still rather demonize Nader than merrily Jul 2014 #49
You can do both at the same time. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #54
No kidding, but, funny, I missed all the DU threads about why he got so many votes. merrily Jul 2014 #82
Gore could have won his home state if he didn't have to spend so much time in other states that hrmjustin Jul 2014 #90
Pulled that Gore bit about winning his home state right out of your elbow. merrily Jul 2014 #100
There is no need to be rude. I said I because it is true. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #111
I wasn't rude. I pointed out that your claim had no basis. merrily Jul 2014 #137
your putting words in my mouth. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #144
oh, so you fudged it, but I'm to blame for putting words in your mouth. merrily Jul 2014 #158
Nader did damage to himself. it is his own fault. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #160
Please see Reply 158. Thanks. merrily Jul 2014 #170
My apologies if I got too argumentative. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #189
Not too argumentative. I, of all people, have no problem with merrily Jul 2014 #199
Well, given that people are still making excuses for Nader and denying his role in 2000, DanTex Jul 2014 #57
Yeah because anyone who supported Nader supported slavery bobduca Jul 2014 #63
Probably not slavery, but some of them probably supported Reaganomics. DanTex Jul 2014 #66
I voted Gore and Kerry, not Nader. But these threads are ludicrous. merrily Jul 2014 #108
Yeah I voted for Gore too bobduca Jul 2014 #126
Not everyone, but I'm sure some are. merrily Jul 2014 #195
Al Gore won the election fasttense Jul 2014 #192
Hello, preacher. Choir, here. merrily Jul 2014 #216
Did the GOPers do this with Ross Perot? leftstreet Jul 2014 #68
92 and 96 were not close. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #165
Not close only because Perot was in the race. merrily Jul 2014 #295
Yes I see your point. What I shoukd have added is that because the race in the end was not razor hrmjustin Jul 2014 #299
Again, a state by state analysis would be required to see merrily Jul 2014 #300
Perot "cost" Bush the popular vote. merrily Jul 2014 #319
Ross Perot split votes evenly between Clinton and Bush... Hippo_Tron Jul 2014 #332
Gore ran a lousy campaign and choose a lousy running mate WI_DEM Jul 2014 #46
It is called an election and Gore failed to win those betterdemsonly Jul 2014 #48
Gore would have been much better for progressive goals than Bush. DanTex Jul 2014 #74
Yeah, yeah. Lesser of two evils. Got it. zzzzzz merrily Jul 2014 #116
Gore was the better of the two candidates. By far. DanTex Jul 2014 #124
What you don't seem to grasp, is that you attack Bush for what he merrily Jul 2014 #297
One of the fallacies I often see pushed is embedded in your logic BootinUp Jul 2014 #306
Over 100,000 Iraqis would be alive, I'd call that MUCH LESSER of two evils Hippo_Tron Jul 2014 #333
Remind me: How did DLC types, like Lieberman and Clinton, merrily Jul 2014 #335
The Iraq War was only possible with an administration as hellbent on it as Bush's Hippo_Tron Jul 2014 #337
But, it had the full throated support of the DLC types, of which merrily Jul 2014 #339
this extremely LAME bogyman is making the propaganda circuits again.. 2banon Jul 2014 #52
people who blame Nader do not believe in democracy noiretextatique Jul 2014 #377
Yes, that was the immediate revelation at the time.. 2banon Jul 2014 #379
It is funny watching people pretend Al Gore didn't win the 2000 election. Rex Jul 2014 #53
He didn't win the presidency. But without Nader, he would have. DanTex Jul 2014 #64
Yes he did he won the popular vote and won the election. Rex Jul 2014 #67
Let me put it this way. He wasn't inaugurated president. Without Nader, he would have been. DanTex Jul 2014 #96
Not true at all, not even close. Rex Jul 2014 #101
Of course it's true. DanTex Jul 2014 #107
Once again not true at all. All Gore won the election by popular vote Rex Jul 2014 #112
Without Nader, it wouldn't have gone to the SCOTUS. Are you seriously denying that? DanTex Jul 2014 #119
Without 300k democratic voters it would have never gone to the SCOTUS. Rex Jul 2014 #128
Like I said, there are multiple causes (did you read the OP?). Nader is (obviously) one reason. DanTex Jul 2014 #133
Well anyone that believed Nader in 2000 was niave. Rex Jul 2014 #139
Again, if you read the OP, I recognize that there are multiple causes. DanTex Jul 2014 #152
Your thread title blames one person for 2000. You give lip service to the rest of the reasons Rex Jul 2014 #169
That's why it's good to read the whole OP. DanTex Jul 2014 #182
I did, but Nader did not cost Gore the Presidency...he actually WON the office he ran for. Rex Jul 2014 #186
It's also funny watching people pretend he was the President from 2001-2009. nt stevenleser Jul 2014 #93
Examples? Rex Jul 2014 #106
lol, so true. nt BootinUp Jul 2014 #132
This message was self-deleted by its author Rex Jul 2014 #188
GOLDSTEIN!!! frylock Jul 2014 #55
Stupid threads like this always remind me of this quote: Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2014 #58
No he did not abelenkpe Jul 2014 #59
Gore lost because of a Republican Coup d'etat rickyhall Jul 2014 #60
Hilariously wrong. MNBrewer Jul 2014 #65
It's funny watching 'DUers' carry water for the GOP. Rex Jul 2014 #69
Some DUers carry water for the NSA, so it shouldn't surprise you too much...[n/t] Maedhros Jul 2014 #228
Gosh, it seems to be the same people. Rex Jul 2014 #232
Just like the "Reagan Democrats" jumped ship and put Ronnie in the White House, Maedhros Jul 2014 #239
BINGO! Rex Jul 2014 #248
it's like an exercise in collective guilt frylock Jul 2014 #352
can you do it standing on one leg? reddread Jul 2014 #70
If we had election rules like Australia does with instant runoff voting, Nader wouldn't matter... cascadiance Jul 2014 #73
we dont even rate recounts, just try to get one for important "close calls" like Prop 37 in CA reddread Jul 2014 #76
I agree completely. We should have IRV. DanTex Jul 2014 #79
And Nader could have gotten more "first round" votes and Gore still would have won... cascadiance Jul 2014 #84
Yup. With IRV, Gore would have won. DanTex Jul 2014 #87
I'd certainly favor instant runoff voting. If nothing else, it would save the time and winter is coming Jul 2014 #83
And greater voter participation in the "runoff" than standard runoffs get. cascadiance Jul 2014 #88
Tell me about it. I always expect to see tumbleweeds at runoffs for municipal elections. n/t winter is coming Jul 2014 #110
Which is why I'm starting to hate the open primary initiatives on Oregon's ballot this year... cascadiance Jul 2014 #181
If Gore had picked a better running mate, less Democrats would have voted for Nader corkhead Jul 2014 #75
Well, that's democracy. marybourg Jul 2014 #78
I've learned that some Dems don't like democracy very much. Rex Jul 2014 #80
In that case, quit yer' bitchin' about everything else, too. DanTex Jul 2014 #86
just for you reddread Jul 2014 #98
Meh. If you have an argument to make, simply make it. DanTex Jul 2014 #102
nothing says "I got nothin" quite like "meh" reddread Jul 2014 #131
LOL. Actually, I think posting a link to a google search says "I got nothin" pretty darn well!! DanTex Jul 2014 #136
dont know ya, dont care reddread Jul 2014 #143
Personal attacks, calling me "stupid", etc. Like I said: meh. DanTex Jul 2014 #155
as I said, reading comprehension is essential n/t reddread Jul 2014 #162
That makes no sense. marybourg Jul 2014 #383
I personally blame Yoko. edbermac Jul 2014 #81
Oh yeah, vote for Lieberman! JEB Jul 2014 #85
This guy is a Dem nightmare! mylye2222 Jul 2014 #95
over the actual Democrat because Bill Clinton supports the non-Democrat and others reddread Jul 2014 #114
i AGREE mylye2222 Jul 2014 #89
Howard Dean taking over the DNC in late 2004 saved the country from a deep slide into the abyss DFW Jul 2014 #122
Yes, no matter how much the Nader-Egotists deny it you nailed it. we can do it Jul 2014 #91
I am a Florida Voter DonCoquixote Jul 2014 #94
Nader cost Gore some votes rock Jul 2014 #97
Actually AlbertCat Jul 2014 #99
I'll keep saying it: The PMRC lost it for Gore. beerandjesus Jul 2014 #103
The 2000 election was STOLEN. MASSIVELY and blatantly stolen... DesertDiamond Jul 2014 #115
and covered up, right here, even now, to the best of their ability reddread Jul 2014 #125
I guess they seem to inadvertently like to carrying the GOPs water around. Rex Jul 2014 #135
Both 2000 AND 2004 where massivly stolen. mylye2222 Jul 2014 #140
Yeah and there are STILL (funny it is the same people on here) that pretend vote Rex Jul 2014 #146
Thanks for this response, Rex! mylye2222 Jul 2014 #150
Oh man, I remember doing a million facepalms as Kerry sat by and watched the GOP Rex Jul 2014 #159
Kerry really wanted to more powerfully respond ( he did in some way but media didn't recorded it) mylye2222 Jul 2014 #167
Yeah, I was dumbfounded that nobody stood up for him in 2004 and let the slander continue. Rex Jul 2014 #173
I have the SAME HIGH DOUBT as yours!!!!!!!! mylye2222 Jul 2014 #180
DU rec... SidDithers Jul 2014 #118
lol nt BootinUp Jul 2014 #147
Thank you for stating clearly. It's amazing so many people on here lack HERVEPA Jul 2014 #120
Yes our system very clearly is ONLY for two parties, and he should have known that huh! cascadiance Jul 2014 #141
Ralph ran and doing so caused irreparable harm HERVEPA Jul 2014 #157
So you are saying that ANY third party could cause irreparable harm then? cascadiance Jul 2014 #168
Read my fucking post. HERVEPA Jul 2014 #187
But how could you not feel the same about any third party candidate that is a spoiler in other races cascadiance Jul 2014 #203
In some cases third parties may have an influence. HERVEPA Jul 2014 #211
I think there were several causes as to why Gore lost but that is one of them LynneSin Jul 2014 #123
GORE DID NOT LOSE. HE WON THE ELECTION. DON'T BUY THE LIES fasttense Jul 2014 #138
Point taken. I should have said "lost". And btw Kerry "lost" too LynneSin Jul 2014 #148
And he would have had a PUBLIC recount op, mylye2222 Jul 2014 #154
Gore.Didint.Lost.He .Was.Robbed.Period. mylye2222 Jul 2014 #145
Exactly. fasttense Jul 2014 #161
As a person that has never voted for a third party candidate tiredtoo Jul 2014 #156
The way to pull the Dems to the left is via primaries. DanTex Jul 2014 #166
Voting for the candidate you believe best represents you is called "democracy", not "sabotage". winter is coming Jul 2014 #273
Nader was the one doing the sabotage, not the voters. DanTex Jul 2014 #276
"base." wyldwolf Jul 2014 #191
it apears you forgot tiredtoo Jul 2014 #315
No I didn't wyldwolf Jul 2014 #318
Yes, EXACTLY. BootinUp Jul 2014 #164
agree but what about Clinton? ALBliberal Jul 2014 #177
ML? wyldwolf Jul 2014 #193
Monica Lewinsky sorry! ALBliberal Jul 2014 #197
Polling proved "ML" didn't hurt Clinton or the Dem brand at all wyldwolf Jul 2014 #201
Then Gore should have campaigned with Clinton ALBliberal Jul 2014 #220
I said it then and I'll say it now...I will NEVER forgive Nader KauaiK Jul 2014 #196
Ralph Nader said "There is not a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats. world wide wally Jul 2014 #200
That line wouldn't have worked unless people believed it. Maedhros Jul 2014 #241
Instead we get "I agree with Governor Bush". TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #375
the 43 going on 44 million dumb asses who voted for dipshit Cosmocat Jul 2014 #205
God damn that Ralph Nader for giving some voters what they thought hughee99 Jul 2014 #206
Yes, we did need those stupid people to vote for Gore. DanTex Jul 2014 #210
So is it Nader's fault or the people that voted for him? hughee99 Jul 2014 #212
Both. If Nader hadn't run, Nader voters would mostly have gone to Gore, giving him FL DanTex Jul 2014 #214
Personally, I blame stupid voters for making stupid votes. hughee99 Jul 2014 #231
I agree about stupid voters. But Nader isn't stupid. He knew what he was doing, DanTex Jul 2014 #237
Now that is REALLY scarey to think of... Thanks, Ralphie world wide wally Jul 2014 #270
Well they have their conscience bluestateguy Jul 2014 #223
Let's do some math bluestateguy Jul 2014 #209
In which states did the minority that voted for Nader tip the election to Bush? JDPriestly Jul 2014 #217
Umm... in Florida. DanTex Jul 2014 #226
I bet that the Bush government in Florida would have rigged the election for GWB in any event. JDPriestly Jul 2014 #262
Without Nader, Gore would have won by a recount-proof margin. DanTex Jul 2014 #265
NAFTA, GATT, DOMA, Welfare Reform were anathema to Liberals. Maedhros Jul 2014 #251
This is something you and I agree upon completely. aikoaiko Jul 2014 #224
No blame for elected Democrats JoeyT Jul 2014 #227
Wrong. It's surprising this idiotic meme still gets pushed. DirkGently Jul 2014 #229
Actually, you can infer what Nader voters would have done. DanTex Jul 2014 #235
None of that GUESSING makes Nader the "cause" of anything. DirkGently Jul 2014 #253
Polls and statistics aren't "guessing". DanTex Jul 2014 #259
That is the job of the party and its candidates. NOT the voters. DirkGently Jul 2014 #264
Of course it's sabotage. DanTex Jul 2014 #268
It was not incumbent on Nader to protect Democrats. DirkGently Jul 2014 #274
True. He had the option of sabotaging the Democrats. And that's the option he chose. DanTex Jul 2014 #279
Plain silly. It's not "sabotage" to run OR to vote. DirkGently Jul 2014 #301
Of course it's sabotage. DanTex Jul 2014 #302
Of course it wasn't "sabotage." DirkGently Jul 2014 #312
I'm not saying it's "incumbent on Nader" to help Gore win. DanTex Jul 2014 #314
Funny watching some Dems show their true hatred for democracy. Rex Jul 2014 #307
It's a take on party loyalty I can't get behind either. DirkGently Jul 2014 #316
I think you have it right and I am just being a snarker. Rex Jul 2014 #317
Oh, I totally agree it's anti-(d)emocratic. DirkGently Jul 2014 #320
Oh my! Emocratic...THAT one is getting added to the lexicon. Rex Jul 2014 #321
^^ Thread win. winter is coming Jul 2014 #277
SCOTUS Cost Gore The Election cantbeserious Jul 2014 #230
Interesting logic. davidthegnome Jul 2014 #233
Yes, Nader took away votes from Gore, obviously. DanTex Jul 2014 #242
If Buchanan hadn't run, there might not have even been a move towards recounts too.... cascadiance Jul 2014 #252
Some Dems do not like democracy when it inconveniences them. Rex Jul 2014 #243
Well said. CanSocDem Jul 2014 #255
Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee. 4lbs Jul 2014 #240
Good point. And without Nader, Gore would have become the first president to DanTex Jul 2014 #245
Although if Gore had been able to win Tennessee, the whole Florida recount and Nader voters 4lbs Jul 2014 #343
silly H2O Man Jul 2014 #244
I disagree. lol DanTex Jul 2014 #246
No pothos Jul 2014 #247
Yes! He did! DanTex Jul 2014 #249
What about that bastard John Hagelin?!??!?!?!11! klook Jul 2014 #254
it's posts like this that bbgrunt Jul 2014 #258
Looks like you're not quite as good at ignoring threads as you claim. DanTex Jul 2014 #263
I was thinking the same thing. beerandjesus Jul 2014 #272
Completely agree. It was never Repubs Nader wanted to defeat. It was always Democrats. Tarheel_Dem Jul 2014 #261
No he didn't rock Jul 2014 #267
No he didn't rock Jul 2014 #269
His running caused Gore some problems, but he also made highways a lot safer to drive too! cascadiance Jul 2014 #275
+1 beerandjesus Jul 2014 #288
Shame on you for your hatred of democracy. beerandjesus Jul 2014 #285
What? Hatred of democracy? DanTex Jul 2014 #286
I read your post, you can read mine. beerandjesus Jul 2014 #289
Ok, on second thought, maybe I came down on you a little hard.... beerandjesus Jul 2014 #290
+1 Rex Jul 2014 #303
Really? Personal Damon Jul 2014 #294
Yes, really. Without Nader taking votes away from Gore, there wouldn't have been DanTex Jul 2014 #296
No, not really Personal Damon Jul 2014 #298
+Thank You Dan...I will tell my story one more time, the most liberal person in America, just about randys1 Jul 2014 #304
Stupid hats? Okay, how about crazy pants? davidthegnome Jul 2014 #369
Kick & Rec. nt COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #309
stupid...and tragically wrong noiretextatique Jul 2014 #323
Yes you do. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2014 #328
amazing how many people are willing to minimize Nader's involvement Skittles Jul 2014 #324
kick & recommended. William769 Jul 2014 #329
One word: Tennessee lordsummerisle Jul 2014 #330
I voted for Nader in 2000 jimlup Jul 2014 #331
Poor Nader.. we're just suppose to sweep him and tweedledum and tweedledee little self Cha Jul 2014 #338
Oh no, I am having a Deja Moo moment from this. RoccoR5955 Jul 2014 #340
yeah, and the Martians caused the fall of Rome MisterP Jul 2014 #341
I'm pretty sure the fall of Rome caused Gore to lose the election. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #366
Kick! Cha Jul 2014 #342
...along with a lot of other stupid fuckers, including Gore himself. Hissyspit Jul 2014 #344
Like HELL! burrowowl Jul 2014 #346
K & R SunSeeker Jul 2014 #350
Few things rpannier Jul 2014 #353
While I voted for Gore, maybe he shouldn't have campaigned in "Centrist" mode, or did that LIEberman blkmusclmachine Jul 2014 #355
I might argue that Joe Lieberman cost Gore the election, but not Nader. Scuba Jul 2014 #358
I Nader-tradered Bickle Jul 2014 #360
this tired bullshit meme again? blackspade Jul 2014 #362
Time to make like a bridge and get over it. Daemonaquila Jul 2014 #363
Thanks for your input. Alkene Jul 2014 #367
scape·goat (skpgt) n. 1. One that is made to bear the blame of others.* rhett o rick Jul 2014 #368
Another Blame Ralph thread? HoosierRadical Jul 2014 #370
And do we blame Nader for corporate takeover of the Democratic Party? raindaddy Jul 2014 #372
SCOTUS deserves ALL the blame noiretextatique Jul 2014 #378
Well, that's the thing about democracy, I suppose. stone space Jul 2014 #382
 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
176. Badly said. AL GORE won the election
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:23 PM
Jul 2014

The RepubliCONS would like you to believe it was Nader or hanging chads or Florida Dixiecrats or Amish RepubliCONS.

But it was NONE of those things. It was stolen straight out by the unholy and corrupt union of the Dancing Supremes and RepubliCON bushes.

However you count votes, Al Gore won the election.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

The lying, thieving, scoundrels on the Supreme Court decided your votes don't count when it comes to electing a president. Only their 9 votes counted. Nader had nothing to do with it.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
213. I can, there is an election coming up.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:55 PM
Jul 2014

And there needs to be as much diversion and conflict as possible between now and then.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
257. The Election wouldn't have been close enough to steal without Nader.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:30 PM
Jul 2014

I know that's uncomfortable but it's accurate.

Bryant

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
361. The fix was in no matter what Nader did or did not do.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 08:39 AM
Jul 2014

Florida was rigged long before Nader threw in his hat. W's brother made sure of that. Then they bribed some Supremes (I would never call then justices because they don't believe in real justice) and waited. The RepubliCON also gerrymandered, suppressed votes, purged make believe felons, caged and rolled out their electronic voting machines in as many states as they could get away with. RepubliCONS can never win real honest elections. There aren't enough stupid people, yet. So they lie cheat and steal in order to win. It's their only way.

And I'll bet you think I'm exaggerating. But you forget, they are corrupt and liars for Jesus. So, since they manage to mix in religion they get real fanatical about it all. And fanatics have no moral compass. It's very similar to how the KKK operated in the South during Jim Crow. Only with the bushes, it became a national KKK organization.

Nader is a distraction to keep you from looking too closely at how corrupt and soulless the RepubliCONS really are.

Besides Nader, there was: Dixiecrat voting for RepubliCONS in Florida, the Jewish vote turning away from the Democrats, Amish voting RepubliCON in Pennsylvania, and having a beer with W. All of it was nonsense. All of it was done to steal the election away from Al Gore.

elzenmahn

(904 posts)
365. This assumes that Nader's votes would have been votes for Gore...
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jul 2014

...had Nader not run. I don't accept this as being necessarily the case.

For one, I think Nader votes were really a protest against the 2-party system, which Nader has been campaigning against for decades. People were disgusted with it, as they're disgusted with it now. And let's face it, Gore is a Corporate Democrat - liberal (maybe), but by no means progressive. Quite frankly, I hated the man, and hated the fact that he was the only viable option to go up against the Repubs.

The problem is, that we have a political system that is set up to only accept two viable options for the national seats. Having multiple parties involved would be more democratic and encourage more participation, but would require fundamental changes to our election system, such as instant run-off voting (which, I think, would have been a more productive use of Nader's time and energy.)

As far as being "close enough to steal" - if anything, Nader's candidacy pointed out the very flaws in our electoral system that should have been fixed by now (and might have , if 9-11 didn't happen.). It took Nader's candidacy to point out the rot.

So I don't fault Nader for running - as a citizen, he has every right. I fault SCOTUS, the people running the Florida election, the Republicans for being behind the whole mess, and the Democrats for not standing up as they should have.

elzenmahn

(904 posts)
376. I'm fully aware of what I said...
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 12:03 PM
Jul 2014

...I (like many others) have been put in the position of having to vote for people I have despised, countless times. This, again, is a consequence of the two-party system.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
225. Which states would Gore have won if Nader had not taken votes?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:03 PM
Jul 2014

I'd like to know where the Nader candidacy made a difference? Can you name the states?

JPZenger

(6,819 posts)
234. Florida would have been enough by itself.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:12 PM
Jul 2014

Yes, the complete recount taken after the Supreme Court suspended the count did show that Gore won if every vote in Florida would have been re-counted.

In any case, it would have only taken a fraction of Nader's votes in Florida in 2000 to have allowed Gore to have won the presidency without challenge. With those electoral votes, we would have had the most pro-environmental President in US history and we never would have invaded Iraq, and hundreds of thousands of people would not have been killed or maimed.

There also is a very high chance that President Gore wouldn't have gone back to clearing brush when he was handed intelligence saying "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US."

The sad thing is - this situation was clearly evident in the weeks before the election. People begged Nader to suspend his campaign in Florida, but instead he redoubled his efforts. Then a system was set up to allow vote trades over the internet. People who wanted to vote for Gore in solid blue or red states would agree to vote for Nader. In return, the Nader supporters would vote for Gore in the swing states. This system was widely publicized and was intended to allow the Nader supporters to still be heard without causing a Gore loss. Nader publicly condemned the effort.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
250. In case this is an attempt to bully people into supporting Hillary Clinton, count me out.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:24 PM
Jul 2014

The seeds for a lot of the problems in the Bush administration were laid during the Clinton administration.

We need a new approach to these problems now.

We need to have a 21st century Glass-Steagall bill, a fairer tax code that does not exempt so much capital gains income (thank you, Thomas Piketty), more enforcement and a modernization of our anti-trust statutes, repeal of RIFRA or RFRA (the First Amendment is clear enough), revision of our drug laws so that they put treatment first and punishment second, as you pointed out, very strong environmental laws and far more investment in alternative fuels, revision of the laws on the Fed, checks on charter and other private schools, more funding for education including more generous laws that forgive student loans in exchange for public service and a host of other thins. Government support for interstate highways instead of toll roads (that is a national security issue). There is such a long, long list of policies we need to adopt. And our Democratic Party is just panting behind the ridiculous Republicans and their insane theories rather than leading on these issues.

It would not really be that scary and outrageous to talk about better antitrust laws in this Walmart era. It would not be bad to question our addiction to foreign imports in this time of international terrorism.

Nader at least brought up issues that made people think. I did not vote for him. I voted for Gore, but at least Nader brought up new ideas. The Democratic Party doesn't even staunchly support labor any more. Labor built the modern Democratic Party.

What happened in 2000 happened. Let's start thinking about how the Democratic Party can keep more people, more intelligent people under its big tent and not go back and blame just those who felt left out of the tent in 2000. Let's make the tent larger in the future. Let's hold fast to policies that will keep intelligent, well informed Nader-type voters voting Democratic.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
293. And Gore would have gotten those votes if he had geared his choice of vice president
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:34 PM
Jul 2014

and his stances on issues during the Clinton administration to include those who agreed with Nader.

You assume that the Nader voters (I was not one of them) would have voted for Gore. Maybe they wouldn't have. In fact, there is a good chance that many of them would not have.

Clinton signed a lot of bills that were very pro-Republican. We forget that.

During the Clinton era, a lot of traditional Democratic values were neglected. We forget that.

And Obama has repeated some of Clinton's mistakes -- even employing some Clinton leftovers like Larry Summers.

Don't blame Nader voters for voting their consciences. The Democratic Party needs to stand up for Democrats like union members and teachers and nurses who vote for Democrats but then get treated very badly when Democrats take office.

Obama's appointment, Arne Duncan, is likely to alienate a lot of teachers' votes. If they have to put up with No Child Left Behind, being judged by the scores their kids get in a time of high unemployment and upheaval and economic distress in many families and on top of that Arne Duncan, can you really expect them to be very enthusiastic about voting Democratic? Who is backing up teachers and their unions? Certainly not our Democratic president.

Votes have to be earned. The president does not have the power to pass laws. But he does have the power to make appointments to regulatory agencies. And that is where Clinton and Obama have made their worst mistakes. Unfortunately, presidential appointments by recent Democratic presidents tell a bleak story.

If we want to get Democrats out to vote, we have to tell an inspiring story. President Obama could do better in that regard. Sorry. And Clinton should have done a lot better in that regard. Nader would not have run if those who voted for him had liked Clinton.

I was not a Nader voter, but it makes not sense to blame Nader voters for what were the mistakes of the Clinton administration.

You dance with the one what brung you. And for the Democratic Party, that means working people. The leadership of the Democratic Party forgets that at the peril of losing elections.

DoctorRobert

(9 posts)
373. Definitely agree...
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:31 AM
Jul 2014

Had Gore picked Graham instead of LIEberman for VP we wouldn't be talking about Nader now. Graham was and possibly still is the most popular politician in Florida. There were a lot of missteps and betrayals to Democratic ideals during the Clinton years. That is what gave rise to Nader. I didn't vote for Nader, but I understood the resentment of the base. President Obama really has not done much better in this regard. How often have we heard of someone in his administration talking down or outright disrespecting the liberal base voters? I may disagree with republicans on almost everything, but I have to hand it to their base that they keep the establishment politicians scared and in line. If we did that, things would be different. We would elect politicians that closer reflect our ideals. But, we as a whole spend too much time living our lives rather than paying attention to politics. Then at the very end we decide to jump in to see who's there and it's usually the one with the most money that got through the primaries.
Nader tapped into the fact that liberals were really pissed off and it cost the country a great deal, just like what happened in 1968 and 1980. In 1968, liberals wanted McGovern and stayed home. We got Nixon. In 1980, liberals wanted Kennedy and stayed home. We got Reagan.
We need to focus on electing more and better Democrats. But if our preferred candidate does not make it out of the primaries, we should still vote to elect the Dem in the general and then keep pushing. One thing the republicans are showing us is that we need to keep our side scare of what we will do to them if they cross us. Right now, they are not afraid of us because we don't teach them a lesson in the primaries. Our mistake is we either go home and don't vote or we vote for a third party that will not win anyways. Ok!!! I'm rambling too much. Later peeps!

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
4. No, he really didn't.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:39 AM
Jul 2014

you know what the ultimate margin of "victory" in Florida in 2000 was? 537 votes.

The Socialist Workers' Party candidate, James Harris, who was on the ballot in Florida, got 562 votes.

Monica Moorehead, candidate of the Workers' World party, got 1804 votes in Florida.

It may be easy to blame Nader; it's also wrong.

Something no-one mentions; there wasn't much compelling reason at the time to believe Gore was or would have been a better choice for a disaffected leftist to vote for; not when his running mate was Joe Lieberman, not when Gore was a strong supporter of things like NAFTA, not when Gore was associated with the policies of the Clinton administration like financial deregulation and welfare reform and free trade and DOMA. In hindsight? Sure, a lot of people would have voted differently.

MH1

(17,600 posts)
359. Nope, Nader LIED to naive supporters like I was. "Not a dime's worth of difference", remember?
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 07:45 AM
Jul 2014

By election time I realized that Nader was more about Nader than moving progressive values forward and/or obstructing the right wing. In fact I had discussions with radical Nader supporters who said it would be ok if things got really bad for people in this country because sometimes that is what it takes to start a revolution. Really, that's what these folks were going for. They never expected to win, just wanted to increase the support of their party, WHATEVER THE COST TO ACTUAL PEOPLE.

Yes, the Democratic Party is flawed, and some Democratic candidates are DEEPLY flawed, and in some cases should even be opposed, particularly if there is a viable third party candidate who can win (ahem, Vermont). That latter situation is not likely to happen for the presidential race any time soon.

That said, anyone who truly thinks there's not a dime's worth of difference between the parties, and supports intentionally undermining the Democratic presidential candidate, does not belong posting at DU.

This is why many of us despise Nader - not because he "bucks the system." Nope, in 2000 he played that system for his own ends, rather than to help the country.

What Nader and other radicals fail to realize is a) radical change hurts actual people (maybe some of whom you consider "scum" and don't give a shit about, but also real people who matter - to most of us); b) in some cases the "win" is stopping the evil of the right wing. For example, 9/11 and the follow-on wars would probably not have happened if Gore had become president, the Bush tax cuts and fellating the supply-siders would not have happened during Gore's term, and we would have made more progress on climate change and alternative energy. For just a few. Take away the massive expenses and revenue loss of those things and even if an economic crash had occurred - and I don't argue that at least a downturn would have happened - there would have been more money for food stamps, school lunches, and unemployment benefits, and fewer wounded veterans to be abused by the VA's incompetence and/or lack of funding. Again, just naming a few. The list is endless. And yes, there would have been stuff to grit our teeth about too. But in hindsight, doesn't that all pale next to 9/11, the wars, and all the other destruction brought on by BushCo?

Yeah, "Nader bucks the system and they hate him for that" is a bit too simplistic. Nader's approach to "bucking the system" HURTS PEOPLE WHO DON'T DESERVE TO BE HURT. And he's too much of an egotistical sot to see it. That's why we hate him.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
12. Yes he did.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:51 AM
Jul 2014

Without Nader's votes, Gore would have had a recount-proof margin. Winning by a tiny number of votes is what sent the whole thing into the court system, and with the SCOTUS 5-4 against him, there wasn't much Gore could do.

Tiny third parties wouldn't have made much difference here. OK, you can argue that Monica Moorehead or whoever else also contributed slightly -- like I said, events have multiple causes -- but Nader was the big one.


And, yes, there was plenty of reason at the time to believe that Gore was much better than Bush. Even on issues where Clinton turned conservative -- deregulation, welfare reform, etc. -- it was obvious that the GOP was much further right than Gore. On other issues, like the environment, or supreme court nominations, it was more obvious still. Bush campaigned on tax cuts for the rich, drilling in ANWR, school vouchers, etc. Bush was pro-life. To argue at the time that there appeared to be no difference is like arguing that there appeared to be WMDs in Iraq. It only appeared that way to people who were willfully ignorant.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
14. It's simple-minded stupidity to assume that all of those votes would have gone to Gore instead.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:54 AM
Jul 2014

Those people may not have voted at all, or may have voted for another third party candidate (Socialist, or Libertarian, or a different Green Party nominee).

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
21. Not all, but most, and enough to avoid a recount. It's not stupidity, it's what polls suggested.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:58 AM
Jul 2014

The GOP understood this, that's why they ran pro-Nader ads. Nader also understood this, but he didn't care.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
38. The best analysis I've seen suggests that Nader voters would have gone about 60-40 Dem.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:12 AM
Jul 2014
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/lewis/pdf/greenreform9.pdf

And even if it were 55-45 it would still be enough to avoid a recount and litigation.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
44. And most of the socialist/workers' party votes would probably have gone to Gore as well.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:16 AM
Jul 2014

Why the focus on Nader? It's frankly absurdist. For that matter if 600 of the 308K registered Democrats in Florida who voted for Bush had voted for Gore instead, he'd have won.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
51. At 60-40, Nader's vote had far more influence than the Socialist party votes would have.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:21 AM
Jul 2014

Even under the unjustified and likely false assumption that 100% of Socialists would have turned out for Gore.

The reason to focus on Nader is that there is plenty of Nader-esque rhetoric floating around today about how the Dems are corporate sellouts and not worthy of being voted for. There was even a highly recced OP about not voting in 2016. Nader drew disaffected Democrats away from the party, convincing enough of them to throw away their votes to make Florida steal-able.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
325. A lot of people would have just stayed home because
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:49 PM
Jul 2014

they were not willing to vote for Gore or Bush (or any of the several candidates to the right of Bush). There's a lot of good info on this thread, but you choose to ignore or dismiss all of it to cling to your victim story about Nader, a man who, ten years into his career, had done ten times more good for average Americans than most do in a lifetime.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
348. If more people were like Nader we would be far better off as a country.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:22 AM
Jul 2014

"a man who, ten years into his career, had done ten times more good for average Americans than most do in a lifetime. "

Deserves repetition.

Thank you

merrily

(45,251 posts)
351. You're welcome.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:38 AM
Jul 2014

His wiki is jaw-dropping.

But, of course, that was all before he brutally slaughtered 100,000 Iraqis.



I saw briefly, but have not wandered to thread yet, that he's supposedly called for Obama's impeachment and praised Libertarians or some such, so I need to find out about that. Also, candidly, I was not crazy about his suggestion about wealthy candidates for President, either, though I read it totally out of context. So many things to look into, so little time.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
349. I should have said
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:34 AM
Jul 2014

"A lot of people probably would have just stayed home."

I can't say for sure what would have happened in an alternate universe.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
357. Yep
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 06:54 AM
Jul 2014

from your link:

Why are we only focusing on the votes he didn’t get from the much smaller Nader pool, than the votes he didn’t get from the much larger Bush pool?
And why are the Dems who voted for Nader expected to “do the right thing” and vote for Gore, more so than the ones who voted for Bush? Why isn’t the party condemning Dems who voted for Bush as turncoats and sell-outs, instead of simply bashing those far fewer who went for Nader? Answer: the Democratic Party is much more comfortable with their members who lean right, than those who lean left, and bashing the former might cost them in future elections, while bashing the latter is seen as safe, because, after all, we have “nowhere else to go.” In fact, Gore lost seven-and-a-half times more Democrats to Bush, than he lost Democrats and Independents combined to Nader.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
326. Trying to sell it, anyway.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:54 PM
Jul 2014

I don't know if it's to protect the SCOTUS. I think it's to terrorize people who may be thinking of voting Green or not giving their unconditional support to Hillary in 2016. (Like Gore, she was a co-founder of the DLC.)

The USG yells "terra" every now again to terrorize us into submission and some on DU yell "Bush2" every now and again to terrorize us into submission.

Be it Al Qaeeda, the USG or DU, I'm so over being terrorized, it isn't funny.

Fuck all would be terrorists. I'd rather die than let them skeer me.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
334. terrorism has no grip on me
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:20 PM
Jul 2014

the freedom of having nothing left to lose.
if people grokked what terrorism does, they
would cease perpetuating it before it knocks on their door.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
336. Cowards die a thousand deaths while the brave die only once.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:23 PM
Jul 2014

One death is plenty for me, thanks anyway.

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
327. Yes, but it absolved Democrats from any culpability whatsoever.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:57 PM
Jul 2014

Which is all any of this is about. Pure and simple deflection.

I saw it in my young kids a lot when I'd get mad at them for doing something. Then they'd turn around and go "But....so and so over there did THIS!!!!! and that's worse!!!!!"

Of course my kids don't do this any more since they passed the ages of say 5 or so, because they understand that it's a ridiculous way to discuss something and to solve a problem.

Maybe one day these folks on DU and elsewhere will be as mature. Doubtful since it's been 14 years and they are still going on about it. But one can hope.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
236. You assume that Nader voters would have voted for Gore.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:12 PM
Jul 2014

That's a big assumption. Some of them would have stayed home or voted for candidates of other parties. I voted for Gore, but in retrospect, I'm not sure I did the right thing. The mistakes of the Clinton presidency have taken a big toll on the country. NAFTA? the repeal of Glass-Steagall? the reappointment of Greenspan to the Fed? welfare reform (we don't hear much about that one's effect on poor women during this economic recession but it has to be hurting)? RFRA or RIFRA (and now Hobby Lobby and who knows what is coming)? increased deregulation (our banking scandal)? The Telecommunications Act? What was his policy with regard to NSA surveillance? Did that really just start under Bush? The list of questionable bills signed and policies and appointments that really didn't help the country as much as a more independent president's actions might have is pretty long.

And how would a Nader presidency (impossible as it was) have affected the country? Does anyone bother to ask that question?

I repeat. I voted for Gore, but I'm not sure that I was right. I like Gore, but what would he have done in his presidency? More deregulation? CAFTA??? Would Gore have been willing to regulate banks enough to prevent the 2008 crash? I'm not sure.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
238. The analyses I've seen suggest that Nader voters would have gone about 60-40 for Gore.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:16 PM
Jul 2014

Enough for a recount-proof victory in FL and a Gore presidency.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
16. Let's pretend there was no Nader on the ballot.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:55 AM
Jul 2014

Most likely, Nader's voters would have voted for Gore. Let's pretend Gore did awful with them, and only got 10% of Nader's votes. That's about 9000 votes.

Harris, the SOCTUS, the "Brooks Brothers riot", and all the rest moved the results by about 2000 votes.

If Gore won by 9537 instead of 537, that 2000 vote shift would not have mattered.

there wasn't much compelling reason at the time to believe Gore was or would have been a better choice for a disaffected leftist to vote for

Only if one ignores that it was pretty obvious W was clearly the antithesis of what a disaffected leftist would want.

Vote like an idealist in primaries. Vote like a pragmatist in general elections.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
29. Not likely at all actually.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:03 AM
Jul 2014

Something like 40% of Nader voters in Florida voted Republican in down-ticket races. You can't assume, absent Nader, that all of those voters, or even most of them, would have voted for Gore instead.

And you still ignore the more than 2000 votes for socialist/workers' party candidates that would have shifted the election for Gore if they'd gone to him instead.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
41. Reading. It's a nice thing to try sometimes.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:14 AM
Jul 2014

If you had tried reading, you'd discover I only gave Gore 10% of Nader's voters, despite polling showing the majority of Nader's voters would vote for Gore if Nader wasn't on the ballot.

And you still ignore the more than 2000 votes for socialist/workers' party candidates that would have shifted the election for Gore if they'd gone to him instead.

Because polling showed most of Nader's voters would have voted for Gore, while the socialist/worker's party voters would not.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
56. I did read
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:26 AM
Jul 2014

and I'm not really persuaded that the outcome would have been different. There were too many variables in play; Bush and Gore were not the only candidates. (You can also make a case that if Pat Buchanan hadn't been on the ballot in Florida, Bush would've won decisively.) And unlike some, I happen to believe in the democratic process; if a major-party candidate can't make a compelling case to voters, who instead vote for a third-party candidate? They have every right to do so.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
62. I'm not saying they don't have the right to do so
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:31 AM
Jul 2014

I'm saying they should take a minute to think about the result of their decision. Again, vote like an idealist in a primary. Vote like a pragmatist in the general.

and I'm not really persuaded that the outcome would have been different.

Well, polling showed Nader's voters would have broken 60/40 for Gore if Nader wasn't on the ballot. And instead of using 60% of Nader's voters, I used 10% to demonstrate just how reasonable "Gore would have won without Nader" actually is - I'm only giving him 1/6th the votes he likely would have received.

And as I keep saying, Nader was one factor in the election. There were other factors too. Stealing FL required all those factors to come together.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
104. Essentially, you are.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:55 AM
Jul 2014

If you're not? You should stop going on about how people exercising their right to vote for the candidate of their choosing "cost Gore the election". You may think it's more pragmatic for people to vote for a major-party candidate in a general election; insisting on it is still fundamentally undemocratic.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
130. People have the right to make decisions I don't like.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:05 PM
Jul 2014

That doesn't mean I can't advocate for them to make a different decision.

You should stop going on about how people exercising their right to vote for the candidate of their choosing "cost Gore the election"

No, it was not the voters, it was Nader himself. He promised not to campaign in close states. He then campaign in FL. He knew what he was doing - helping the Republicans win. He has said he did so in order to essentially "teach Democrats a lesson" about being too far to the right.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
172. Gore's inability to make a compelling argument to the contrary isn't Nader's fault.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:22 PM
Jul 2014

One of the most perplexing things about the ire directed at Nader is the way it serves to excuse both Gore's shortcomings as a candidate and the malfeasance of Republicans.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
179. And as I said above, Nader was one piece of the puzzle.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

Gore's lousy campaign was another. The media's irrational hatred of Gore was another. Republicans breaking every law they could was another. And so on.

Take away any of those pieces, and the Republicans can't steal it.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
313. Good point about serving to excuse Gore's shortcomings and the malfeasance of the Republicans.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:58 PM
Jul 2014

And with all of the anti-Nader posts popping up all of a sudden just after another Supreme Court decision it seems that the most likely reason is to divert attention from yet another disastrous Supreme Court decision. Or are the Nader haters saying the makeup of the 2000 Supreme Court was also Nader's' fault?

How does anyone justify blaming Nader for causing Gore to lose by taking too many votes away from him when Gore didn't lose but actually won?

It's all starting to look like a diversion to me, maybe the Republicans are planning to steal some major elections again this year.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
207. On another thread, Jeff347 accused me of not reading in
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:48 PM
Jul 2014

about 20 consecutive posts of his. I guess it's a favorite tactic.

Sorry for the interjection. I'll leave you two alone now.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
47. Nope, not a joke.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:19 AM
Jul 2014

The point where we can steer the party is in the primaries. Saying "I'm gonna vote third party!!" just makes the Democrats ignore you. It's easier in the general election to pull in some people from the right than to win your vote. So that's what they'll do in a general election.

In a primary, they can't do that. Because the only voters are Democrats (in most states).

The teabaggers understand this, and have used it to turn the Republican party into something that would reject Reagan. We are smarter than the teabaggers, but far too many of us don't understand that.

No good primary candidate? Then run. Or recruit someone to run. You don't have to win to change the party. Lots and lots of teabaggers have lost primaries while turning their party to the right.

This is our problem to solve. Stop demanding someone else solve it for you.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
71. Okay, then disingenous.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:36 AM
Jul 2014
The point where we can steer the party is in the primaries. Saying "I'm gonna vote third party!!" just makes the Democrats ignore you.


Oh, please. First, I've never said that and they have absolutely no trouble ignoring me anyway.

The teabaggers understand this, and have used it to turn the Republican party into something that would reject Reagan. We are smarter than the teabaggers, but far too many of us don't understand that.


Total bullshit. I would be amazed if you didn't know that the Koch brothers conceived of the Tea Party in the 1980s. You know, when the DLC was forming a conservative group within the Democratic Party and the Koch brothers donated to the DLC? They planned it and funded it. They pick the candidates and fund them. The rank and file Teabaggers understand? You have to be kidding.

No good primary candidate? Then run. Or recruit someone to run.


You planning to bankroll me or my candidate? How about the fact that the Democratic Party in my state doesn't want to hear about anyone but Hillary because the fix has been in for quite some time?

Stop demanding someone else solve it for you.


Jeff347, dear, stop pretending I demanded anything. People can read. And please take this in the best possible way: @#$%!

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
117. Nope.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:01 PM
Jul 2014
Total bullshit. I would be amazed if you didn't know that the Koch brothers conceived of the Tea Party in the 1980s. You know, when the DLC was forming a conservative group within the Democratic Party and the Koch brothers donated to the DLC? They planned it and funded it. They pick the candidates and fund them. The rank and file Teabaggers understand? You have to be kidding.

Yes, they do understand. Because they've seen the results, and keep doing it. The Kochs do not recruit every crazy teabagger that runs.

You planning to bankroll me or my candidate?

I'm busy doing that for candidates in my district. You?

How about the fact that the Democratic Party in my state doesn't want to hear about anyone but Hillary because the fix has been in for quite some time?

Luckily for you, you do not need their permission to run.

Jeff347, dear, stop pretending I demanded anything.

If you were not demanding a fix, there would be no reason for your complaints. You'll have to chose between "I was just whining pointlessly" or "This needs to be fixed".

It appears you chose the latter. And then you went off on how it's up to others to fix it - that someone else has to stop the DLC, that someone else has to stop the Kochs, that someone else has to stop the Democratic party in your state.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
190. This is another lie, Jeff
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:31 PM
Jul 2014
And then you went off on how it's up to others to fix it - that someone else has to stop the DLC, that someone else has to stop the Kochs, that someone else has to stop the Democratic party in your state.


You want to claim I whine pointlessly fair enough. I haven't been great at disguising my opinion that you are disingenuous, so tit for tat. But don't keep repeating the lie that "then" I demanded someone stop the DLC (now defunct anyway), that someone else stop the Koch's etc. i have demanded nothing of anyone, least of all you.

That's the only part of your post that I will respond to because, as I said, my opinion is that you are disingenous and, speaking of pointless, I find our exchanges a huge waste of time and energy. They are fun or enlightening or insightful.

0 for 3 on the posting scoreboard.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
215. Then why bring them up?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:59 PM
Jul 2014
But don't keep repeating the lie that "then" I demanded someone stop the DLC (now defunct anyway), that someone else stop the Koch's etc. i have demanded nothing of anyone, least of all you.

Then why bring them up at all?

More to the point, why do you think I am fixing those problems? My entire point is you have to fix them. So why are you talking about me fixing them? It demonstrates that you keep operating in a framework where someone else is taking action and you're just an observer.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
256. You already settled that to your own satisfaction, Jeff347.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:28 PM
Jul 2014

You said I was pointlessly whining. And I gave you that as a tit for tat re: my calling you disingenuous.

But then you also claimed--and for the second time--that I was not only whining pointlessly, but also demanding that other people fix things for me. And that was a total lie both times. You know, more than "just" disingenuous: flat out, made up lie. As I said in a prior post to you, I never demanded anything of anyone.

More to the point, why do you think I am fixing those problems?





Oh, Jeff, I have no idea where you got the idea that I think you are fixing the problems that I raise.

I don't think you're fixing diddly squat. Never did think that and probably never will think that.

You must have misread my post.


It demonstrates that you keep operating in a framework where someone else is taking action and you're just an observer.


Actually, all it demonstrates is that you misread my post.
 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
37. Nader cost Gore votes and Gore had to adjust his campaign because of him.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:11 AM
Jul 2014

Thrre are states Gore could have won easily without him in the race. Nader was a contributing factor.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
127. Yes, he really did.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:03 PM
Jul 2014

That's the basic math. If he didn't run Gore won. Period. That is not open to any rational level of argument.

You can cite the tiny modifiers that, WITH NADER HAVING SHIFTED THE VOTE SO LARGELY THAT GORE AND BUSH WERE THEN NECK AND NECK, fell within that resulting tiny little margin. But that 500 something or 1800 something votes are absolutely insignificant next to Nader's 100,000 or so Florida votes. THAT is what sealed the deal. Almost all of those would have been Gore's if Nader hadn't insisted on running, which puts Florida to bed out of any possibility of shenanigans with recounts or Supreme Court decisions.

THAT is what cost Gore Florida, and gave us a Bush Jr presidency. Denying that is childish.

Trying to point to those other tiny factors is like saying "Well sure I poured gasoline and lit a match... but it was also 5 degrees hotter than the seasonal average the day that forest burned down!!!!!"

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
129. AL Gore DID WIN THE ELECTION
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:04 PM
Jul 2014

[b]He had enough votes to win but they were NOT counted.[/b] He won the election in Florida and therefore is/was the rightful president. Nader had absolutely NOTHING to do with the counting of Florida ballots.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

"Editor’s Note: Six years ago on another Veterans Day holiday, eight news organizations published the findings of their unofficial recount of Florida’s disputed ballots. The recount had discovered that Al Gore would have won the decisive Florida election if all legally cast votes were counted.

However, just two months after the 9/11 attacks, the news organizations chose to conceal the obvious “Gore Won” lead, apparently putting their sense of “patriotism” over journalistic professionalism.

Rather than tell already-shaken Americans that the wrong man was in the White House, the big news outlets – including the New York Times, the Washington Post and CNN – structured their stories around hypothetical recounts that would have excluded some legal votes and thus still would have resulted in a Bush “victory.”"

Here is part of the original story:

"So Al Gore was the choice of Florida’s voters -- whether one counts hanging chads or dimpled chads. That was the core finding of the eight news organizations that conducted a review of disputed Florida ballots. By any chad measure, Gore won.

Gore won even if one doesn’t count the 15,000-25,000 votes that USA Today estimated Gore lost because of illegally designed “butterfly ballots,” or the hundreds of predominantly African-American voters who were falsely identified by the state as felons and turned away from the polls. [Some later estimates put this number of disenfranchised blacks well into the thousands.]

Gore won even if there’s no adjustment for George W. Bush’s windfall of about 290 votes from improperly counted military absentee ballots where lax standards were applied to Republican counties and strict standards to Democratic ones, a violation of fairness reported earlier by the Washington Post and the New York Times.

Put differently, George W. Bush was not the choice of Florida’s voters anymore than he was the choice of the American people who cast a half million more ballots for Gore than Bush nationwide. [For more details on studies of the election, see Consortiumnews.com stories of May 12, June 2 and July 16, 2001.]"

There is more at the link if you want to know the absolute TRUTH and who really won the 2000 Presidential election.

NADER Had Absolutely Nothing to do with it.



thucythucy

(8,069 posts)
221. A friend of mine is an example of that.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:01 PM
Jul 2014

He was (still might be) a single issue candidate--he hates any form of gun control. But he's also, he says, an environmentalist. He told me he voted for Bush, as opposed to Gore, because of the assault weapon ban. When I said that Bush would be terrible for the environment, he countered with "Even Ralph Nader says there's no difference between Gore and Bush. He called Gore a 'faux environmentalist.'" So--he voted for Bush.

Hopefully he learned from his mistake (haven't talked to him in years) but I wonder how many others there were out there like him.

lame54

(35,293 posts)
6. What bullshit*...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:43 AM
Jul 2014

it came down to 536 votes

Choice point purged over 100,000 voters

the butterfly ballots cost over 3,000 votes

the choice of Lieberman is surely worth at least 536 votes

you dismiss Gore's terrible campaign with an etc. - ultimately it was his race and his responsibility to earn votes

The Bush team pulled every dirty trick in the book

Gore could have fought harder but gave in early

The SCOTUS pulled a notoriously sketchy move with their bullshit one-time non-precedent setting decision - illegal as hell - but hey, no higher court to appeal to

Nader ran on a legal 3rd party ticket - which will never happen again because of the whining and scapegoating that is forever attached to it - 2 party system forever

His platform is similar to libertarian - which probably siphoned from votes from Bush as well

Too many big factors involved to oversimplify like this

*I did vote for Nader in CA - Gore easily took that state - Was not impressed him at the time and wanted to support someone with different ideas even though I knew he couldn't win - In short Gore didn't earn my vote


DanTex

(20,709 posts)
18. Yes, events can have multiple causes. Nader was a big one, but there are others.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:56 AM
Jul 2014

And at the end of the day, without Nader, Gore is inaugurated president in 2001.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
35. dream on
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:09 AM
Jul 2014

you and every other buyer and seller of this anti-anti-establishment meme would simply be
BLAMING PAT BUCHANAN.
with some sort of interesting progressive/liberal bashing twist Im sure.

rpannier

(24,330 posts)
354. Don't necessarily disagree
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:55 AM
Jul 2014

But, I put Gore's uninspiring campaign as first in the reasons why he lost column.
It was a campaign that bordered on incompetent.

wundermaus

(1,673 posts)
208. Spot on.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:52 PM
Jul 2014

Precisely stated and a carbon copy of my opinions, circumstances, and actions.

I would like to add -

Gore did not lose the election.
Gore won the election.
The Supreme Court effectively suspended the election recount and declared Bush winner.
The will of the people was denied by highly organized political corruption at the local, state, and national levels.
Nader was nothing but a scapegoat.
I remember vividly the events of that day.
Thuggery ruled the day.
And we will be paying for it for decades.
Good luck rewriting history.
Those of us that lived it know better.
Shame on us for capitulating to the Coup d'état.



unblock

(52,253 posts)
7. hell, when it's that close, you could argue that bad sushi cost us the election
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:43 AM
Jul 2014

the final official margin was 537 votes in florida.

improper hand-washing and spoiled food served at a few seafood restaurants in florida could have kept that many democrats home sick on election day.

by any reasonable measure such things are noise.


other things, such as media bias and third-worldly vote-counting procedures, make a far bigger difference across many more pivotal states.

as for gore running a lousy campaign, it only seems that way because the media was so incredibly biased. gore tromped shrub in the debates but the media insisted he sighed too loudly into the microphone. shrub jumped like a scared little deer when gore casually walked over (a well-established practice by the taller candidate in such debates) and the media called gore a bully.

shrub, on the other hand, ran a pathetic, gaffe-prone campaign, but the media called him charming and in touch with the common man whenever he said something ignorant or stupid or inept.

no one can run a competent campaign if the press is going to call it like that.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
134. I subscribe to your explanation.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:07 PM
Jul 2014

The media was incredibly biased. When the media declared Bush had won a debate I was shocked. It was as if content meant nothing. Bush came off as an uneducated dunce compared to Gore.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
11. Nope! He still didn't. Bush stole it with help from Harris and 5 justices.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:50 AM
Jul 2014

Don't legitimize bush by blaming Nader.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
151. Exactly
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:14 PM
Jul 2014

AL GORE did win no matter how you count the chads or dimples. Al Gore had enough votes to win. The RepubliCONS want you to think it was Nader but it was the Dancing Supremes in unholy corruption with the bushes the entire time.

Read the truth about it here: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
15. Gore lost because he could not get a majority of the voters in his home state to vote for him.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:54 AM
Jul 2014

Edit to add: Gore could not even get a plurality of the voters in his home state to vote for him.

City Lights

(25,171 posts)
17. No he didn't. nt
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:56 AM
Jul 2014

Nader was one of many factors that caused Gore to "lose" the presidency, as you pointed out. Why people continue to pretend it was all Nader's fault escapes me.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
24. I went out of my way to say that it wasn't all Nader's fault.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:00 AM
Jul 2014

Nader was a major factor though, and without Nader, come 2001 we have president Gore. Which is why, as liberals, we would be wise to avoid falling into Nader-type traps in the future.

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
20. True, Sir
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:57 AM
Jul 2014

There were multiple causes, as there are in most real cock-ups, but Nader was certainly a major contributing factor, essential to the outcome. Remove his run, and its style, from the equation, and Mr. Gore would have carried Florida by a margin too broad to be made disappear.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
364. Remove any of the factors and the 536 votes go away.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 09:58 AM
Jul 2014

So the blame Nader meme is bullshitty right off the bat and one has to ask "what is the point of blaming nader" and the point, as far as I am concerned is just more hippy punching from our center-right party loyalists, and done to try to paper over the sorry history of rightward collaborationist bullshit that our awful party has practiced and gotten very good at since 1980.

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
374. What Pins The Culpability On Nader, Sir, Is That He Was The Novel Factor
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:47 AM
Jul 2014

So-called Democrats at the South voting for Republicans out of racism and misconstrued views of patriotism and religion and morality is a normal factor in our elections; it happens every time. Various sharp practices by partisan state election officials are also, for better or worse, a normal part of our elections. Nader's run in 2000 was not a normal part of our electoral process; a third party candidate running to the left of the Democratic nominee, and being well-covered by the media as he did so, is something that has not happened since Wallace in 1948. It was Nader who made the situation not a normal one. Mr. Gore would have won absent Nader, would have won in an election conducted normally and featuring all the normal political factors. This is not to say he could not have done better; he made a number of foolish decisions, chief among them deciding to distance himself from President Clinton and choosing as the visible symbol of this Lieberman for his running mate, Lieberman being the first major Democrat to publicly denounce President Clinton over the Lewinsky affair. But even poor decisions are a normal part of the process. Nader was the exceptional factor, and when there is an exceptional result, and an exceptional factor in the mix, it is customary to assign the exceptional factor the blame for the exceptional outcome.

Orrex

(63,215 posts)
22. Nader was among the last of the factors leading to Gore's defeat
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:58 AM
Jul 2014

But he was not the principle cause. Why blame Nader for Gore's failure to distinguish himself from a chattering simpleton? Gore lost a footrace against an oaf who'd tied his own shoes together.

Nader has his faults, most notably his insistence that the two parties are indistinguishable, but it makes no sense to hold him chiefly responsible for Bush's appointment to office.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
30. It depends what you mean by "chiefly responsible".
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:04 AM
Jul 2014

Nader was a decisive factor, in the sense that without Nader, we would have had a President Gore. He wasn't the only decisive factor -- the Supreme Court was another, but he was one of them.

Orrex

(63,215 posts)
34. As long as we allow a range of decisive factors, then I agree
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:08 AM
Jul 2014

I don't see how the post hoc hypothetical elimination of any single "decisive factor" is helpful, though, except as an exercise in giving Gore a pass for not running a stronger campaign.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
45. One reason that identifying the Nader factor is helpful is to prevent something like this
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:16 AM
Jul 2014

from happening again. Given that Nader-like rhetoric about the Dems being a corporate sellout party is making rounds on DU, even to the extent of some highly recced OPs about not voting in the 2016 election, I'd say that this is a pretty timely topic.

Orrex

(63,215 posts)
50. If it gets out the vote, then I'm all in favor of it.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:21 AM
Jul 2014

I suppose it also makes sense to address individual factors in Gore's defeat, if we are then able to innoculate against those factors next time around. I'm reluctant to focus too exclusively on Nader, but I can see how he's a tempting and sensible target.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
72. So your solution to the claim that the Dems are too corporatist is to drag out the boogeyman?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:37 AM
Jul 2014

Wouldn't it be more effective to disprove the claim?

Have you considered that people vote third party not to "punish" one of the mainstream parties, but because they feel they no longer have a voice in them? Give them a voice, or don't expect to command their support.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
77. I also feel that the Democrats are too corporatist.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:40 AM
Jul 2014

But that doesn't blind me about the differences between Democrats and Republicans.

Did Nader or his supporters help solve the corporatism problem? No. All they did is help Bush become president.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
105. Every time we lessen that difference, we shoot ourselves in the foot.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:56 AM
Jul 2014

Like it or not, there are single-issue voters, people for whom one topic sways their vote. Abortion can be a single-issue topic for both Democrats and Republicans. Why is it so hard to conceive that corporatism could be another?

I've never believed that "no difference" literally means no difference between the parties. If you talk to someone saying "no difference" about the issues, it doesn't take long to realize what they mean is "no difference on the issues that matter to me".

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
113. Single-issue corporatism voters would have been much better served by a Gore presidency.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:00 PM
Jul 2014

Shooting oneself in the foot is how I would describe Nader and his supporters -- claiming they were fighting corporatism but then playing a big role in handing the election to Bush.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
163. "Single-issue corporatism voters would have been much better served by a Gore presidency"
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:18 PM
Jul 2014

You believe that. They didn't. Hence the difference in how votes were cast.

Right or wrong, the Nader voters apparently believed that both parties were far too cozy with corporations. So the choice they had was vote for party A that didn't represent them, vote for party B that didn't represent them, vote for party C that did represent them but didn't have a snowball's chance of winning, or stay home. Any of those choices represented an effective "loss" for the Nader voters. Is it that surprising that some of them chose the "loss" that at least reflected their political beliefs?

To you, the degree of difference between party A and party B is significant. To them, it wasn't. Whether or not that's objectively true is irrelevant. People vote based on their perceptions.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
174. And the Nader voters were wrong.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:22 PM
Jul 2014

Hopefully they figured that out during 8 years of Bush. Let's not go through that again, please.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
183. Of course. All the more reason that arguing that Bush and Gore were the same was stupid.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:27 PM
Jul 2014

If you follow the thread, you will see that I was responding to a post about hypothetical single-issue voters, whose single issue was corporatism.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
266. Huh? Then why did you say "Of course?" when I posted
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:40 PM
Jul 2014

corporatism is not a single issue?



Originally, you said something about single issue corporatism voters.

I replied, Please tell me you know that corporatism is not a single issue, but affects all (meaning all issues).

Then, you replied,"Of course," but followed that with this:


If you follow the thread, you will see that I was responding to a post about hypothetical single-issue voters, whose single issue was corporatism
.

I'm lost.

All I can do is repeat: corporation is not a single issue. It is something that affects all issues.

So, how can anyone, real or hypothetical have corporatism as their single issue when it never is a single issue?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
271. I agree that corporatism affects many issues.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:45 PM
Jul 2014

I was responding to someone else's post, which was a hypothetical about single-issue voters whose single issue is corporatism.

If you don't think that corporatism can be a voter's single issue, you should take it up with the person who made that post. Here's what I was responding to.

Like it or not, there are single-issue voters, people for whom one topic sways their vote. Abortion can be a single-issue topic for both Democrats and Republicans. Why is it so hard to conceive that corporatism could be another?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5189738

merrily

(45,251 posts)
278. I'll take it up with both of you, because you went along with the idea
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:51 PM
Jul 2014

that corporatism could be a single issue. It affects everything from trade policy to campaign finance to lobbying to the environment to fiscal policy, to our militarism, and on and on.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
280. I agree with you.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:54 PM
Jul 2014

My only point was that, people whose primary concern was corporatism fared much worse under Bush than they would have under Gore. Whether corporatism is a single issue or not was peripheral to that point.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
283. I don't know that. Neither do you. No one can know it.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:02 PM
Jul 2014

When it comes to the administration of someone who never got to the Oval Office, anyone can imagine anything. For all we know, Imaginary President Gore would have destroyed the world. Or funded the cure for cancer. We don't know.

People who actually have held the office say that you cannot imagine it until you live it. You cannot predict what you will do until you are faced with the circumstances. If they are unable to predict what they themselves would do, how are we able to predict what Gore would have done?

I refuse to speculate on whether Gore's imaginary Presidency would have been better or worse than Bush's, or for that matter, Obama's.

In any event, I think Nader had every legal and moral right to run. I think we could use a lot more competition for the office, not less.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
284. We can be pretty confident of it, based on where the two stood on the issues.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:05 PM
Jul 2014

Gore wouldn't have appointed right-wing supreme court justices, wouldn't have invaded Iraq, wouldn't have passed highly slanted tax cuts for the wealthy, etc. Burying your head in the sand and "refusing to speculate" doesn't change the basic reality.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
291. Sorry, but, only in your imagination, can you be confident.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:09 PM
Jul 2014

My prior post explained why. In truth, you have no idea on this earth or in heaven what Gore would have done after 911, or about tax cuts or anything else.

Burying your head in the sand and "refusing to speculate" doesn't change the basic reality.


OMG. If you want to call my believing what Presidents say about inability to predict what they themselves would do, rather than your unwarranted confidence in your ability to predict what Gore would have done, be my guest. But calling your imagined scenario of an imaginary Gore Presidency "basic reality" is ludicrous. It isn't any kind of reality.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
149. Hello! My voter registration is not a marriage vow.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:13 PM
Jul 2014

At that, 50% of marriages end in divorce.

"The left has nowhere else to go" and "Because Bush" are not exactly motivators.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
109. in the time line of events happening Nader happened first so It is hard put to make him last.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jul 2014

what we have here String theory vs Loop theory.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
184. Al Gore won the vote
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:29 PM
Jul 2014
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

The consortium of 8 newspapers counted all the votes in Florida and no matter how you count, Gore was ahead in all of them. Gore also won the majority of votes nation wide.

It was stolen from him by the corrupt and unholy union of the Bush RepubliCONS and the Supreme Court. It was a simple theft. Straight out in public and everyone pretended otherwise.

Saying it was Nader's fault is buying into the RepubliCON spin.

And we are paying for it still.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
23. Poorly constructed and self-contradictory position.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:59 AM
Jul 2014

No, you don't get to say "period" right after acknowledging many cofactors.

Fail.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
27. The existence of other factors doesn't change the fact that, if Nader was not on the ballot,
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:02 AM
Jul 2014

Gore would have been president. There's no contradiction there. Nader was a major factor.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
33. Stupid sophistry.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:06 AM
Jul 2014

You could say the same thing about any of the other factors, imagining parallel Earths where one or all did not exist, and pretending deterministic knowledge of those systems.

The blame-Nader subject line is therefore meaningless, and a silly troll that will not work (again) on me.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
40. It's not sophistry, it's factual.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:13 AM
Jul 2014

The existence of multiple factors doesn't mean that Nader wasn't a major, indeed decisive factor. The only real question is why this is so hard for people to comprehend.

progressoid

(49,991 posts)
202. So why not start another thread about all the other factors? Why is this ONE factor, THE factor?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:40 PM
Jul 2014

Take any of the other factors out of the equation and Gore also wins.

But Nader is an easy target. And a cop out.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
204. Well, I haven't seen anyone on DU defend Scalia or Thomas or Katherine Harris.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:46 PM
Jul 2014

I also haven't seen anyone deny their involvement in the 2000 election. If I see that, I'll be the first to respond. I do see a lot of Nader-esque rhetoric around, about how bad the Dems are. There was one highly recced OP about not voting in 2016 because the presumed Democratic nominee is not liberal enough. And, as you can see from the responses here, there are still plenty of DUers in denial about Nader's role in 2000.

Also, unlike Scalia and the rest, Nader and his supporters claimed to be trying to help liberal causes, but in fact they caused severe harm to liberal causes and to the nation as a whole.

progressoid

(49,991 posts)
219. If this is a team sport, what do we do with those former Nader and Green voters?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jul 2014

Blame them for 2000 and alienate them?

The problem is that Democrats have forgotten those liberal goals you referenced above. We're less liberal than we were in 2000. If we continue this road toward the corporate center, we'll lose even more voters. Pissing on Nader and the Greens ain't helping.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
222. We vote for liberal candidates in primaries.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:02 PM
Jul 2014

We don't sabotage major elections just to make a point. And we use the 2000 debacle and the aftermath as an illustration of what happens when you pretend that both major parties are the same.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
305. Like Kucinich? Because, as it turned out, he was the only
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:37 PM
Jul 2014

liberal in the 2008 primary. And look what happened to him.


Try putting the blame for shit where it belongs.


Gore lost the election because he was a lousy candidate, picked a lousy running mate and ran a lousy campaign. And maybe being part of the Gramm, Leach, Bliley-DADT-DOMA-NAFTA-blow jobs now in your kids' high school history books administration didn't help him, either.

Primary choices are not a hell of a lot more liberal than election choices---and that is by design and actions of the Party. No one is backing liberal candidates to run in primaries. The DCCC doesn't court liberals. Neither does the DSCC. Without backing or support, liberals don't get into primaries.


Democrats are tempted to vote third party because the only answer they get is "the left has nowhere to go."

And voting for the candidate and platform that you'd actually like to see win the election is NOT sabotaging elections just to make a point. (How fucking insulting is that framing anyway?). It's called voting, period.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
308. Liberal isn't an all-or-nothing thing. There are degrees.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:42 PM
Jul 2014

Sure, vote for Kucinich if that's your preferred primary candidate.

But if your favorite candidate doesn't win the primary, don't go throwing your vote on some pointless ideological crusade just to make a statement. If you do that, you're doing exactly what the GOP wants you to do, and you are part of the problem.

Elections have actual consequences, you see. It's not some game. Bush's presidency caused actual harm and suffering to the world.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
310. I wouldn't know. I'm not a liberal. I'm a traditional Democrat.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:45 PM
Jul 2014
don't go throwing your vote on some pointless ideological crusade just to make a statement. If you do that, you're doing exactly what the GOP wants you to do, and you are part of the problem.

Elections have actual consequences, you see. It's not some game. Bush's presidency caused actual harm and suffering to the world.


Gee, I guess you could possibly use language that is more insulting and condescending, but this comes close.

Clueless and tone deaf.
 

conservaphobe

(1,284 posts)
26. No real Democrat denies the damage Nader did.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jul 2014

If they do, they are either dishonest or stupid. Plain and simple.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
92. Few people at any point in the political spectrum would deny that. But if you feel guilty, you might
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:49 AM
Jul 2014

try and deny it.

mcar

(42,334 posts)
28. Exactly
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:03 AM
Jul 2014

I live in Florida and was here for the 2000 debacle. Jeb!'s whole plan was to make the election close enough to steal. Nader helped him to do that. Without Nader and his voters in FL, Gore would have won the state outright, hanging chads and voter suppression be damned. SCOTUS wouldn't have entered the picture.

And yes, Gore lost his own home state, etc, etc. But in Florida, Nader made it close enough to steal.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
36. The problem is nothing is "somehow a good thing for liberal causes."
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:11 AM
Jul 2014

"The left has nowhere else to go (so the Dem Party can go as far right as it wants without losing base votes)"--is the mantra of Democrats.

And how the hell many Nader threads do we need in one morning, anyway? I guess this just couldn't be posted as a reply to one of the existing Nader threads.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've had enough of being terrorized, whether it's by Al Qaida, my own government or DUers telling me I will definitely cause the reincarnation of Hitler unless I not only vote Democratic, but refrain from criticizing Democrats and love them unconditionally.

Enough. I'm over it. All of it.

2000 was 14 years ago. Nader is not ever going to run again. Neither is Bush.

moveon.org

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
61. I'm not sure what you mean.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:31 AM
Jul 2014

Gore being president instead of Bush would have been good for liberal causes.

The reason this is still relevant is, well, first of all, because there are still people in denial over this. And more importantly, there are still people spouting Nader-esque rhetoric about how the parties aren't that different, and even people talking about not voting in coming elections.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
43. Nader was a contributing factor and I just don't get those who can't see that.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:15 AM
Jul 2014

Yes they stole it but Nader cost gore votes. Two things can be true at the same time.


Nader cost Gore votes in NM, WI, IA, and OR. If Nader had not run Gore would have won those states with less difficulty. He could have spent more time in other states.

Nader cost Gore votes, plain and simple.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
49. So 14 years later, we would still rather demonize Nader than
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:21 AM
Jul 2014

wonder why people voted for him and what that should mean for the Democratic Party-and, more importantly, to me, anyway, for Americans?

And, if we do wonder, all we can come up with is vote for Democrats, no matter what, because Bush?

ETA: the point of the other Nader/Green threads (I think--don't really know) was that the count was bad. And it was, because Gore won Florida, even based on just selective recounting.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
54. You can do both at the same time.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:24 AM
Jul 2014

We shoukd ask why he got so many votes. We shoukd also not whitewash his part in Gore's loss.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
82. No kidding, but, funny, I missed all the DU threads about why he got so many votes.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:44 AM
Jul 2014

Apparently, 14 years of demonization is more gratifying than a thread's worth of introspection.

We shoukd also not whitewash his part in Gore's loss.



Whitewash that the rightward bent of the Party alarmed a citizen who had spent his entire life trying to help Americans enough that he decided to run to draw attention to it?

What the hell is there to whitewash? That Gore couldn't win his home state or enough other states to lock in the election? That most of the people here being so self righteous and sanctimonious about evil Nader haven't done one hundredth of the things he's done to help people and never even aspired to?

Whose vote did Nader steal? Not mine? Whom did he exclude from the Presidential Debate stage? Not Gore, that's for sure. Which ballot box did he rig?

Where is the commandment that says no one shall challenge a Democrat from the left, only challenge Republicans from the right?

Let's not whitewash Perot's two runs, either? But, nothing was wrong with those I guess because they helped Clinton win. Ever hear Republicans whine for 14 years about that?

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
90. Gore could have won his home state if he didn't have to spend so much time in other states that
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:49 AM
Jul 2014

was close due to Nader.

If you want to discuss why he got those votes then start a thread over it. It is a great question.

As for whitewash people here want to absolve Nader and he shoukd not be. He deserves what he gets.

He had the right to run but he knew he was taking votes away from gore.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
100. Pulled that Gore bit about winning his home state right out of your elbow.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:55 AM
Jul 2014

Point is, most candidates can count on being a favorite son and don't plan on spending more time in their home states. Hell, he lived there all his life, represented it as a Senator and was the Vice President from his home state.

He shouldn't have had to campaign in his home state. It's very hard to believe rationally and honestly that Nader cost Gore his home state, emphasis on rationally and honestly.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
111. There is no need to be rude. I said I because it is true.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jul 2014

I never said he cost him his home state. I said he could have spent more ti e there if Nader was not in the race.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
137. I wasn't rude. I pointed out that your claim had no basis.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:09 PM
Jul 2014

Even went out my way not to say you pulled it straight out of your ass, too.

I never said he cost him his home state.


Actually, that is exactly what you said. Not in those exact words but you blamed Nader. You said Gore could have won his home state if he had not had to fight Nader in other states and had been able to spend more time in his home state.

That amounts to saying it was Nader's fault that Gore lost his home state. And my reply is that nothing rationally suggests that Gore spending more time in his home state would have turned that state to Gore. Gore cost Gore Gore's home state, not Nader.





 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
144. your putting words in my mouth.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:12 PM
Jul 2014

I said could have. Gore had other issues in the state.


My point overall is Nader was a contributing factor to the loss.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
158. oh, so you fudged it, but I'm to blame for putting words in your mouth.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jul 2014

You know well what you intended to convey--that Nader was at fault, not that Gore had other issues in his home state anyway.

We're done on this thread, hrmjustin.

Read Nader's wiki and get back to me when you've done a quarter as much good as he has.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
57. Well, given that people are still making excuses for Nader and denying his role in 2000,
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jul 2014

apparently this still needs to be discussed. I'm just as surprised as anyone that some people still don't get it.

Then again, I'm also surprised that some people still call the Civil War the "great war of Northern aggression," or the people still think Reaganomics was a good idea.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
66. Probably not slavery, but some of them probably supported Reaganomics.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:33 AM
Jul 2014

More to the point, even the ones who didn't still ended up giving us more Reaganomics.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
108. I voted Gore and Kerry, not Nader. But these threads are ludicrous.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jul 2014

A citizen, who had spent his entire life doing nothing but good, ran for President.

Let's excoriate him.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
126. Yeah I voted for Gore too
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:03 PM
Jul 2014

Just getting sick of the ham-handed dishonest rhetoric.

it's like everyone posting these things are getting brownie points somewhere.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
195. Not everyone, but I'm sure some are.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:37 PM
Jul 2014

We know that posting is part of the job description of certain government employees. We know that people get paid to post. We know that people work (for money) for this campaign or that and also for the DNC. We know a creepy bill passed expressly allowing the USG to propagandize its citizens. We know that people have staffs and pr folk.

Any reason to assume every poster on the largest Democratic message board is here solely as a hobby?

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
192. Al Gore won the election
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:32 PM
Jul 2014

The RepubliCONS like to pretend otherwise but a consortium of 8 newspapers went to Florida and actually counted all the ballots. And no matter how you sort them, Al Gore won.

He also won the majority of votes nationwide.

Al Gore won the election. The Supreme court had to step in in order to take it away from him.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

merrily

(45,251 posts)
216. Hello, preacher. Choir, here.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jul 2014

But, even if Gore had lost, and?

Perot made a significant difference in 1992 and 1996.

In 2000, Bush Number Two ran against Gore (Dem) AND Nader (Green) to Bush's left and to Bush's right (give or take) Buchanan (Reform), Phillips (Constitution), Browne (Libertarian) and Hagelin (Natural Law). In every election for a long time, people have challenged the Republican candidate from the right and the left. No whining.

How lame and embarrassing is it to whine for 14 years over a single challenge from the left? Where is the law that says only Democrats have a God given right to clear field on the left? (Why do I bother to ask? The same place, I guess, as the law that says Hillary has a God given right to the 2016 Democratic Presidential nomination.)

leftstreet

(36,109 posts)
68. Did the GOPers do this with Ross Perot?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:34 AM
Jul 2014

Imagine the fun, a couple of decades later, HE COST BUSH THE ELECTION !!!111

No, I didn't think so

merrily

(45,251 posts)
295. Not close only because Perot was in the race.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:44 PM
Jul 2014

Perot got 20 million votes and most definitely cost Bush the popular vote. If you combine the popular vote of Bush and Perot, the total trounced Clinton. Clinton didn't even get 50.1% of the popular vote in 1992.


The electoral vote was not close. However, what Perot cost Bush in electoral votes would require a state by state analysis of the popular vote in each state.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
299. Yes I see your point. What I shoukd have added is that because the race in the end was not razor
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:23 PM
Jul 2014

tight the response was not the same.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
300. Again, a state by state analysis would be required to see
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:29 PM
Jul 2014

how many electoral votes Perot's enormously successful candidacy cost Poppy before we can decide what accounts for lack of 14 years of whining from Republicans.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
319. Perot "cost" Bush the popular vote.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:17 PM
Jul 2014

Put differently, Bush failed to garner the popular vote-but so did Clinton.

In 1992, Clinton only got a plurality in the popular vote, thanks to Perot.

However, Clinton did get a wide margin in the electoral vote, which is the only one that matters. I have not done a state by state analysis, which would be the only way to determine how many electoral votes Perot "cost" Bush.

That Gore dropped the ball on the electoral vote, allowing to come down to Florida, a semi-red state to begin with is, I would argue primarily the fault of the Gore campaign and Gore as a candidate.

When his own big campaign joke is that he can finish the macarena without moving a muscle, that indicates a major stick-up-the-ass problem. And then there was his imitation of an adolescent mean girl during one debate with Bush, exaggerated sighs, rolling eyes. Good grief. I never saw anything like it in a Presidential debate my life. I cringed repeatedly. Then, in the next debate, he tried to correct by apologizing to Bush constantly. Unreal.

None of that was Nader's fault.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
332. Ross Perot split votes evenly between Clinton and Bush...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:08 PM
Jul 2014

Remember, Perot was pro-choice and to the left of Clinton on NAFTA.

Exit polls showed roughly 1/3rd of Perot voters would've gone to Clinton, 1/3rd to Bush, and 1/3rd would've stayed home. There is some analysis suggesting that the electoral college would've been closer without Perot. There's no reasonable analysis showing that his absence would've cost Clinton either the popular vote of the electoral college.

People can and will speculate about the intangibles like the fact that he dropped out during the Democratic National Convention, which helped Clinton, but you could just as easily argue that Clinton would've been better off had Perot never run in the first place making him the only alternative to the status quo.

WI_DEM

(33,497 posts)
46. Gore ran a lousy campaign and choose a lousy running mate
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:18 AM
Jul 2014

to boot. Let's face it Lieberman was chosen only because he wanted somebody who was the anti-Clinton in that Holy Joe was supposed to be the most moral man on earth (at least in his own mind). Gore forgot that Clinton in 2000 still had high approval ratings and the economy was booming and by and large voters didn't care about Monica Lewinsky. Had Gore chosen Sen. Graham of Florida as his running mate he may very well have had no problem carrying the state. Then in the debates Gore tried to do gimmicks such as sighing loudly and walking up to be in Bush's face which turned voters off. Finally there is the inconvenient truth that Gore didn't even carry his home state. Had he carried Tennessee he would be president--period. And it wasn't Nader who deprived him of TN. Gore thought his home state was in the bag until the last week of the campaign and then he began to make an effort there. He also should have had Big Dog Clinton campaigning much more actively than he did--and Clinton wanted to.

Nader may have contributed in some states and certainly the GOP stole Florida but had Gore made some better decisions it might have been more difficult for the GOP to steal. Had Graham been VP instead of Lieberman would Gore have gotten a comfortable enough margin in FL to prevent it being stolen? possible. If Gore had carried TN, his home state?

 

betterdemsonly

(1,967 posts)
48. It is called an election and Gore failed to win those
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:19 AM
Jul 2014

voters. There are no stolen votes. There is no spoiler. Gore just lost those votes and he lost the election. Saying that Nader shouldn't have run because he hurt progressive goals, assumes Gore had progressive goals, which is questionable. If it weren't I suspect he would have gotten those voters.

Nader not going to run so if you lose votes again you can't blame him. People still don't trust dlcers, with good reason, so please don't chose another one.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
74. Gore would have been much better for progressive goals than Bush.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:38 AM
Jul 2014

That's the point. Nader hurt liberal causes by running.

Trying to pull the Democratic party to the left is great. Sabotaging an election by siphoning off Democratic votes is not great.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
124. Gore was the better of the two candidates. By far.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:02 PM
Jul 2014

After the Iraq War, tax cuts for the rich, economic near-collapse, and all these recent 5-4 decisions, you still don't see that?

merrily

(45,251 posts)
297. What you don't seem to grasp, is that you attack Bush for what he
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:50 PM
Jul 2014

actually did during an actual administration; and rightly so.

However, attacking an actual President does not automatically prove that Imaginary President Gore would have been far better during the Imaginary Gore Adminstration, which you cannot possibly prove.

Besides, I said Gore was the lesser of two evils. Maybe, you should have knocked on that because, maybe, in reality, Imaginary President Gore would have been even worse than real President Bush.

Repeal of Glass Steagall. NAFTA. Fiscally cataclysmic.

DOMA and DADT. Bigoted and socially undesirable.

All those and more during a Clinton/Gore administration.

And who knows what Gore would have done after 911? You are sure you do, but, again, in reality, no one can possibly know, maybe not even Gore.

BootinUp

(47,165 posts)
306. One of the fallacies I often see pushed is embedded in your logic
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:39 PM
Jul 2014

That you can take policies promoted by a politician 10 or more years ago, compare them to current public opinion or policy and without any consideration for the winds of change over that time period, and then condemn the politician based on the older policy. Its a heaping pile of bullshit. Sorry to be so blunt.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
335. Remind me: How did DLC types, like Lieberman and Clinton,
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:22 PM
Jul 2014

vote on the Iraq War? You remember Lieberman, a co-founder with Gore and Clinton of the DLC and the guy Gore picked as his running mate?

As I told your pal, it's easy to see what an actual President did wrong and also easy to imagine that an Imaginary President would have done so much better. But, one is reality and the other is only your imagination.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
339. But, it had the full throated support of the DLC types, of which
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:52 PM
Jul 2014

Gore was one.

I am not saying Gore would have done exactly what Bush did. I am saying you cannot possibly know what he would have done after 911. And, being a DLC type at the time, there is no reason to assume war somewhere would have been off the table.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
52. this extremely LAME bogyman is making the propaganda circuits again..
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:22 AM
Jul 2014

ignorance knows no bounds. amazing. even among liberals. and progressives wonder why we're so fucked.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
379. Yes, that was the immediate revelation at the time..
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:13 PM
Jul 2014

jaw dropping insane indeed. Still scratching head why this bs is being recycled at this point in time. and oh by the way, it also seems the lessons learned still hasn't penetrated. Nothing like sowing more division between progressives with the so called "centrists".. I suppose the notion that these "centrists" are actually right leaning corporatists may actually have validity.. definitely anti-democratic.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
53. It is funny watching people pretend Al Gore didn't win the 2000 election.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:23 AM
Jul 2014

They seem to have Karl Rove syndrome.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
67. Yes he did he won the popular vote and won the election.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:34 AM
Jul 2014

The SCOTUS selected Bush jr...your revised history is making Karl Rove proud! Congrats for helping out republicans!

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
101. Not true at all, not even close.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:55 AM
Jul 2014

Nader had nothing to do with Gore not becoming POTUS...he won the election but sadly nobody in Congress wanted to help the Black Caucus in challenging the ruling. The SCOTUS demanded we stick with the election time table...and Bush walked into office.

You really don't seem to know much about that time period. Where you very old back then?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
107. Of course it's true.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jul 2014

Without Nader, FL goes to Gore by a comfortable margin, there's no recount, no court battle, no 5-4 decision, no Black Caucus challenge. Without Nader, Gore is president in 2001.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
112. Once again not true at all. All Gore won the election by popular vote
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:58 AM
Jul 2014

And would be POTUS is not for the SCOTUS. You can carry water for the GOP all day for all I care, but you are completely wrong and don't seem to know your history very well.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
119. Without Nader, it wouldn't have gone to the SCOTUS. Are you seriously denying that?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:01 PM
Jul 2014

Without Nader, no recount, no SCOTUS, just President Gore. It's not very complicated.

Also, how am I carrying water for the GOP? That makes no sense.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
128. Without 300k democratic voters it would have never gone to the SCOTUS.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:03 PM
Jul 2014

See I can play that game too. Sorry, but Al Gore won the election...so you have no point to make. The fact that the office was stolen from him by the GOP is part of history.

You can blame Nader and carry water for the GOP all day long...that is your choice.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
133. Like I said, there are multiple causes (did you read the OP?). Nader is (obviously) one reason.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:06 PM
Jul 2014

The Supreme Court is another. But Nader is the only one that claimed to be supporting liberal causes, as far as I can tell.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
139. Well anyone that believed Nader in 2000 was niave.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:10 PM
Jul 2014

Yeah but once again, you are blaming the wrong person and placing it all on HIM and not the GOP. So you are helping them out even if you do not mean to.

Karl Rove is delighted that so many people blame Nader and not Baker III, Scalia and Tomas for 2000. It means he doesn't even have to try and re-write history! DEMS are doing it for him!



DanTex

(20,709 posts)
152. Again, if you read the OP, I recognize that there are multiple causes.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:14 PM
Jul 2014

This part of the OP.

That doesn't mean that there aren't other people to blame. Events can have more than just one cause. The primary blame for the Iraq War lies with Bush and Cheney, not Nader. The primary blame for these 5-4 SCOTUS decisions lies with the Justices that voted, and the presidents that nominated them. And so on.


I don't see how you can read that as me carrying water for the GOP.

I don't think Karl Rove cares much about whether people recognize Nader's role in helping Bush become president. One thing that Karl Rove is absolutely delighted about, though, is that Nader decided to run and siphon of votes from Gore, ultimately handing the presidency to Bush. Without Nader, Karl Rove is still a small time political consultant that none of us have heard of.
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
169. Your thread title blames one person for 2000. You give lip service to the rest of the reasons
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:19 PM
Jul 2014

so I don't really see the logic in your replies.

I think Karl Rove is delighted that Dems will cry about Nader and pretend he is the sole reason for Gore being cheated out of his rightful place in office.

SO yes...you are carrying their water for them and doing their job to boot!

Congrats!

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
182. That's why it's good to read the whole OP.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:26 PM
Jul 2014

Not everything fits in the title. Yes, Nader cost Gore the presidency. Yes, there were also other factors. Nader was not the sole reason.

But he was a big reason. And without Nader, we get a different outcome: President Gore.

Also, if you think Karl Rove cares more about who the Democrats blame for 2000 than the fact that Nader helped W become president, you are sorely mistaken. In fact, I doubt Rove cares one bit about who Democrats blame. He knows that Nader helped Bush win -- the whole GOP knew, that's why they were running pro-Nader ads -- and he's delighted about that.

Without Nader, Rove is still an obscure unknown.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
186. I did, but Nader did not cost Gore the Presidency...he actually WON the office he ran for.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:29 PM
Jul 2014

But you can keep up with the Nader meme...also I did not say Rove cares about what Dems think...my such a narrow scope there...he cares what public opinion is of his party and when you carry water for them, it makes his job easier.

So keep helping the GOP by covering up their part in it and focusing mostly on Nader instead, it is your choice even though it is a bad one imo.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
106. Examples?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:56 AM
Jul 2014

I'll wait...

EDIT - yeah I didn't think so...don't you have a Foxnews interview to do or something?

Response to BootinUp (Reply #132)

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
58. Stupid threads like this always remind me of this quote:
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:28 AM
Jul 2014

"I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." Jay Gould - Robber Baron

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
59. No he did not
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:29 AM
Jul 2014

The supreme court cost Al Gore the election. Gore won, the supreme court gave the election to Bush. I do remember that election and no matter how many times people try to claim otherwise I know that blaming Nader or Gore or unfaithful democrats or young voters that didn't show up is all just divisive crap.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
65. Hilariously wrong.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:32 AM
Jul 2014

Gore is to blame. He picked Lieberman. Lieberman caused the loss. Him and the SCOTUS.

I didn't vote for Gore because of he demonstrated very poor judgement in choosing that odious Lieberman for VP.

BTW: Gore won my state so don't even go there.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
69. It's funny watching 'DUers' carry water for the GOP.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:35 AM
Jul 2014

EDIT - Actually it is really sad to see...but by now very predictable.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
232. Gosh, it seems to be the same people.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:10 PM
Jul 2014

Makes me wonder how many Third Wayers voted for Bush jr. in 2000 - out of protest of Gore being way to liberal.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
239. Just like the "Reagan Democrats" jumped ship and put Ronnie in the White House,
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:17 PM
Jul 2014

I'm sure there are a boat load of "Obama Republicans" that have jumped ship because of the excesses of the Bush Administration.

These are the people that call Liberals who oppose war, support Social Security and defend civil rights the "Extreme Left."

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
248. BINGO!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:23 PM
Jul 2014

Good to see other people notice that, I thought it was quite obvious from day one that they were completely insincere toward the Left. Funny how they were wrong about Reagan and Bush...but still seem to know everything about everything.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
73. If we had election rules like Australia does with instant runoff voting, Nader wouldn't matter...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:37 AM
Jul 2014

It is our system that keeps us voting only for the two major parties and one that can't send the message that we are unhappy with both (even with one more than the other) that doesn't allow for us to vote for someone like Nader like Australians could and show that the populace is not happy (and maybe even give a very strong third party candidate a shot at winning at times).

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
76. we dont even rate recounts, just try to get one for important "close calls" like Prop 37 in CA
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:39 AM
Jul 2014

the system is the problem, the facts (real ones) are apparent to those who arent selling bills of goods.
I suppose I should feel sorry for those dumb enough, or blind enough to ignore the real problem. Especially,
if they "really, really, think" they are doing a service by ignoring the actual problem in favor of pushing a
hate based voter suppression meme.

I remember when this was the land of the free, and both parties worked for the common good, enforced by
a Supreme Court that wasnt stacked with corporate wealth supremacists.
You pitiful internet cretins.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
79. I agree completely. We should have IRV.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:42 AM
Jul 2014

We also should have an algorithmic district drawing procedure that can't be gamed. The Senate needs to change so that people from Wyoming don't have 60 times more influence than people from California. And the electoral college needs to go, it should be popular vote.

On edit: in fact, I'd also like to see representatives apportioned by party slates, so that a third party getting say 20% of the statewide vote could get 20% of the representatives from that state, as opposed to coming in third place in each district and getting no representation outside the two major parties.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
84. And Nader could have gotten more "first round" votes and Gore still would have won...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:45 AM
Jul 2014

If they go IRV, they should show the vote totals before candidates are dropped and the final results to show what the electorate feels about the field of candidates and ultimately who wins of course. It could have been a lot higher for Nader then and allowed him to send a message to both major parties that they aren't doing their job and still have a winner that the majority of Americans still support more than who actually won when IRV takes out the spoiler effect.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
87. Yup. With IRV, Gore would have won.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:47 AM
Jul 2014

IRV allows third parties to participate without being spoilers.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
83. I'd certainly favor instant runoff voting. If nothing else, it would save the time and
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:44 AM
Jul 2014

expense of runoffs and we'd be subjected to fewer campaign ad blitzes.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
88. And greater voter participation in the "runoff" than standard runoffs get.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:48 AM
Jul 2014

Oregon State University went to instant runoff voting and got a boost in student voter participation for their elections by doing that.

http://www.fairvote.org/research-and-analysis/blog/oregon-state-university-increases-turnout-with-ranked-choice-voting/

Give more people a voice and a way to show their true feelings about an election with a chance for them to count, and more will vote.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
181. Which is why I'm starting to hate the open primary initiatives on Oregon's ballot this year...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

It will destroy the primaries as a vehicle for different parties to select who represent them best that affords their constituency to come together and figure out what issues to drive and who to drive them. And the "runoff" that only allows two candidates in the general election will get far less voter participation if the two major candidates that get through don't have support amongst a lot of the voters. Does anyone have stats on the runoff voter participation in open primary states like California to tell us if it is higher or lower than when the "general election" used to field more than just two "final candidates"? Would be interesting to see that in the various states to see if it has less voters wind up choosing who represents them in the end. I would rather Oregon wait and consider IRV later instead of these two props now. One of them claims to not boost plurality candidates in large fields, but I have my doubts.

corkhead

(6,119 posts)
75. If Gore had picked a better running mate, less Democrats would have voted for Nader
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:39 AM
Jul 2014

Dems ignoring their left base and trying to be Republicon-Lite cost them that election.

marybourg

(12,633 posts)
78. Well, that's democracy.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:40 AM
Jul 2014

Sometimes you like the result; sometimes you don't. We all get 1 vote and we get to exercise it as we choose. And then we live with the results and get to do it all again every 4 years. You're never going to convince people to vote the way YOU want them to. So quit yer' bitchin' already.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
80. I've learned that some Dems don't like democracy very much.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:42 AM
Jul 2014

Thought that was only a Republican trait, but I was wrong.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
86. In that case, quit yer' bitchin' about everything else, too.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:46 AM
Jul 2014

Quit complaining about income inequality, the environment, wars, unions, healthcare, minimum wage, etc.

Because, that's democracy, donchaknow!

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
131. nothing says "I got nothin" quite like "meh"
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:06 PM
Jul 2014

I suppose a course in reading comprehension should precede the college level logic courses.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
136. LOL. Actually, I think posting a link to a google search says "I got nothin" pretty darn well!!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:08 PM
Jul 2014

I still don't know what point you're trying to make. Other than that maybe you don't like me and you're trying to say something mean.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
143. dont know ya, dont care
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:11 PM
Jul 2014

I do recognize that you fail to comprehend more than a few things.
you will have to distinguish yourself a good deal more if you want me to
"not like you"
I tend to forgive the stupid for their failings sooner than most.

marybourg

(12,633 posts)
383. That makes no sense.
Sun Jul 6, 2014, 01:24 PM
Jul 2014

We don't vote on those issues. People we vote for (or not) vote on issues, and their minds can be changed by our lobbying and other actions. No amount of post hoc (especially decade old) bitching is going to change G. Bush into A. Gore

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
114. over the actual Democrat because Bill Clinton supports the non-Democrat and others
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:00 PM
Jul 2014

like that swell fellow in SF who boinked his campaign managers WIFE and caused how many divorces?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom

these people are real leaders.
public servants, family minded.
loyal friends.
Just imagine that greasy fellow going in and out of you?
The bulimics friend.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
89. i AGREE
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:49 AM
Jul 2014

and Team Clinton maybe, by sending its advisors to the Kerry campaign, took its part in the cost 2004 as well. Thanks you DNC!

DFW

(54,405 posts)
122. Howard Dean taking over the DNC in late 2004 saved the country from a deep slide into the abyss
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:02 PM
Jul 2014

He went 180° from accepted thinking, earned the undying hatred of Rahm Emmanuel (and thus denied himself, and the country, the HHS spot in Obama's cabinet) in the process, and still brought about the "miracle" of the 2006 midterms.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
94. I am a Florida Voter
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:51 AM
Jul 2014

And you would be surprised at the massive ratfuck/psyop that was in place. There were people pretending to be hard left, I mean Marxists/Green/Marx was a petit burgeoie pig etc types, and yet, that awful Wednesday afterword, they pulled off their masks and revealed that they were using the nader fans to get Bush in. They called up the right wing Tampa Radio, including someone who was then a local Tampa talk show host named Glenn Beck, and spent the whole day high fiving each other. Nader helped as he was someone who would glady accpet money, even from GOP types that hated bush, and Democrats that hated Gore. It was brilliant!

Then again, it is not like anyone had a problem wiuth the fact Nader has been in bed with the right for a while, and is still:

http://www.canada.com/news/Ralph+Nader+rightwing+darling+Strange+bedfellows+Americas+cranky/9992946/story.html

"Nader's call for unity is endorsed on the book jacket by prominent anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist. Nader also sat down recently for a friendly interview with Ron Paul, the libertarian ex-presidential candidate and father to possible 2016 candidate Rand Paul. And there he was last Friday, headlining an event at the Cato Institute, founded by the deep-pocketed Tea Party backers the Koch brothers."

Frankly, I do not care wtheter he thinks he is doing what he does for the right reasons, or is getting rich. The people that burned witches thought they were saving the souls of the people they tportured and burned, their "good intentions" have been shown to be worthless at best, evil at worst. Nader deserves the same scrutiny.

rock

(13,218 posts)
97. Nader cost Gore some votes
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jul 2014

But votes was not what cost Gore the election - unless you mean SCOTUS votes, which Ralph had no effect on whatsoever.

DesertDiamond

(1,616 posts)
115. The 2000 election was STOLEN. MASSIVELY and blatantly stolen...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:00 PM
Jul 2014

IMO, this is what we need to focus on, and deal with. My belief is that blaming Nader will distract us from what really needs to be taken care of, which is the ways that the Republican operatives have been able to steal elections, and may still be able to in the future.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
135. I guess they seem to inadvertently like to carrying the GOPs water around.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:07 PM
Jul 2014

Karl Rove squeals with delight at the thought of the GOP being off the hook for 2000.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
140. Both 2000 AND 2004 where massivly stolen.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:10 PM
Jul 2014

The difference of the two election, is that, in 2004 GOP had learned lessons from the previous crime, and made any proof dissapear. Plus, Kerry didn't have the same support of the Dem powerstructure, for an eventual recount operation.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
146. Yeah and there are STILL (funny it is the same people on here) that pretend vote
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:12 PM
Jul 2014

stealing did not go on in Ohio...when the evidence points to a stolen election.

What I have learned since Obama became POTUS...some DEMS hate democracy if it is inconvenient for them at the time.

Gotta question people like that imo.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
150. Thanks for this response, Rex!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:13 PM
Jul 2014

The then-Dem powerstructure had BIG INTEREST in Kerry's "lost"!!!!

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
159. Oh man, I remember doing a million facepalms as Kerry sat by and watched the GOP
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:17 PM
Jul 2014

swiftboat him out of relevancy. I don't blame him for not standing up and protesting, but I DO blame his campaign for not going on the offensive when it first started.

NOW we are stuck with Third Way Dems...really no different that the Koch clan imo.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
167. Kerry really wanted to more powerfully respond ( he did in some way but media didn't recorded it)
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:19 PM
Jul 2014

But if the response would have been efficient, he would have maybe REALLY FINISHED UP IN THE WH.....And this was very unpleaseant to a certain Dem lady, who wanted to have her seat free to run in 2008 primaries, IMHO!!!!!!

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
173. Yeah, I was dumbfounded that nobody stood up for him in 2004 and let the slander continue.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:22 PM
Jul 2014

I have to say...all this fear so far out from the next Presidental election, that I have to wonder if Hillary is a shoe in.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
180. I have the SAME HIGH DOUBT as yours!!!!!!!!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

Plus, DNC had been upset at Kerry for many years, because he cracked the BCCI/Iran Contra cases, whe he also was not afraid to point some powerfull Dems here.
The bad things still somewhat goes on. He struggles sometimes at Sos( like Israel issue for example) and we really don't heard so much prominent dems stood on his behalf........

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
120. Thank you for stating clearly. It's amazing so many people on here lack
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:02 PM
Jul 2014

the critical skills to understand that statement.

Ralph's ego or whatever it was caused irreparable harm to this country.

Yes, other things affected the election, but this is somebody allegedly on our side who had a choice and decided to take the chance of fucking us and the country (and the world).

He deserves every bit of scorn anyone can heap on him, to the nth power.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
141. Yes our system very clearly is ONLY for two parties, and he should have known that huh!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:10 PM
Jul 2014

Until we go to IRV, then every third party will be blamed for election losses.

If Ross Perot hadn't run, I wonder if we would have had the massive protests against NAFTA that happened in Seattle, and the consciousness of what is going on now with the TPP and TASIC?

Folks, blaming Ralph Nader or Ross Perot for a systemic problem is not dealing with that fundamental problem! It's like blaming Snowden and others for our systemic problems with the NSA.

Now, I would like to challenge third parties now to make IRV a fundamental issue for every campaign they run and have them challenge those in power to put it in place and the party that gets it passed will be the one they pledge their voters' support for. If enough third parties make that the fundamental issue on both sides of the aisle, then it will be harder for the two major parties to run away from and we can finally have a system that allows us to voice our true opinions on who we like as candidates without a spoiler effect happening. Something our "democracy" sorely needs right now.

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
157. Ralph ran and doing so caused irreparable harm
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jul 2014

He had the right to run.
He had the right to lie and say both parties were the same.
He had the right to take the Rethuglican money.
Doesn't make him less of a shit.
Some people live in the real world. A world where what Ralph did caused harm to people of color, people in the LGBTQ world, people in Iraq, to our soldiers, to the environment, to women in general.
You can live in your theoretical world, but it causes real harm to real people.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
168. So you are saying that ANY third party could cause irreparable harm then?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:19 PM
Jul 2014

Why don't you advocate that the Dems pass a new law that make it so only the Democrats and Republicans can field candidates to avoid this "irreparable" harm. Because you are saying basically that third parties are basically evil and can only cause irreparable harm!

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
187. Read my fucking post.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:30 PM
Jul 2014

I said Ralph did irreparable harm. I made no broad statement about third parties.
Not a theory, not a suppositon, not a guess, not a lemma, a fucking fact. He caused harm and didn't and doesn't give a shit.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
203. But how could you not feel the same about any third party candidate that is a spoiler in other races
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:44 PM
Jul 2014

You are focused on Ralph Nader which is typical in the way we are lead to blame specific things on people themselves and not on the system that makes this sort of thing happen. It is the same as when people start talking about Snowden being a Libertarian and having a stripper as a girlfriend. You are knuckling under to those that want to shift the blame off of a broken system on to others and "blame the messenger" to avoid having the system being fixed. And the more people gang up on those like Nader and Snowden, the more those in power that profit from it being broken laugh and love you doing so!

I want third parties to have a voice to keep our two major parties honest. I don't like spoiler effects either, but as a I said in another post in the thread, that could be solved if we went to Instant Runoff Voting. The only thing I blame Nader for is that he along with other third parties should be yelling louder collectively for something like Instant Runoff Voting so that they can have a greater voice but not become spoilers with who actually wins. If all of you who hate what happened would do the same, perhaps third parties would get the message and do that and put pressure on the major parties to put in IRV so we could be done with the spoilers having a bad plurality candidate win. That would be a constructive thing. If Nader along with other third party candidates don't want to do this, then that is the time in my book to criticize them as wanting to be spoilers more than a voice outside the two party system for change.

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
211. In some cases third parties may have an influence.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:54 PM
Jul 2014

There was no way Ralph was going to have an influence other than the undesirable one he did.
We don't have a parliamemtary system where there are coalition government.

It is perfectly logical and reasonable to say Ralph was an uncaring shit for what he did without saying nobody should run as a third party candidate.

And this is all so clear that it is way too frustrating for me to continue this.

Nice pie in the sky stuff which helps nothing now OR IN THE FUTURE vs. real lives. Think about it.

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
123. I think there were several causes as to why Gore lost but that is one of them
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:02 PM
Jul 2014

I also think that confusing Palm Beach ballots and the Supreme Court's interference with allowing the vote count as factor in too.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
138. GORE DID NOT LOSE. HE WON THE ELECTION. DON'T BUY THE LIES
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:09 PM
Jul 2014

Just because the Supremes decided to ignore the voters' choice for president does NOT mean Al Gore Lost the election. He won the election and lost the court case because the Dancing Supremes only Dance for RepubliCONS.

He won if all legal ballots had been counted. He won Florida and he won the majority of votes.

Read the truth.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
148. Point taken. I should have said "lost". And btw Kerry "lost" too
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:12 PM
Jul 2014

I think Kerry would have won Ohio if the Ohio GOP didn't screw that one up.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
154. And he would have had a PUBLIC recount op,
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jul 2014

if not the then Clinton people -runned Dem powerstucture would have let him do that!

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
161. Exactly.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:17 PM
Jul 2014

It was carefully and deliberately stolen by the corrupt and unholy union of the Dancing Supremes and the RepubliCON bushes. And the US is a whole lot worse off for it.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/111207a.html

He had the majority of votes both throughout the country and in Florida.

tiredtoo

(2,949 posts)
156. As a person that has never voted for a third party candidate
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jul 2014

I see less problem with this than many here do. If a progressive candidate gets votes that would have likely gone to the Democratic candidate resulting in a loss, the Democratic Party will eventually get the message and move to the left.
Republicans fear their base, Democrats scorn theirs.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
273. Voting for the candidate you believe best represents you is called "democracy", not "sabotage".
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:46 PM
Jul 2014

The Democratic party has no motivation to move left if it can get those votes for nothing.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
276. Nader was the one doing the sabotage, not the voters.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:50 PM
Jul 2014

The people who voted for Nader threw away their votes (the ones in swing states, at least), but I wouldn't call that sabotage.

Sabotaging presidential elections is a very poor way of trying to pull the party to the left. The way to do that is in the primaries. The party will move left when more liberals start winning primaries.

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
191. "base."
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:32 PM
Jul 2014

Isn't the "left" of the Democratic party. the base of the party are working class men and women of differing races and levels of "liberalness." Many are regular church goers. Many shop at Wal-mart.

Rank and file Democrats are not one issue voters. Our base is our most reliable voting block and historically the "left" doesn't meet that criteria. In fact, you post above demonstrates you don't meet that criteria.

Who is the "base?"

Democrats get most of the gay vote. Democrats still get most of the black vote - yet more blacks than whites DISAGREE with gay marriage. Blue collar union workers - often very religious, often anti-abortion.

Women, most concerned with health care, education, their children, jobs and the economy.

See, the base is a hodgepodge of beliefs that conflict with the "progressive" mindset of Democratic Underground so often floated here as the base. Parts of the base are religious. Parts are anti-abortion and pro-gun rights. Parts are anti-gay marriage. Yet the base consists in part of women and gays.

If the base was "anti-corporate progressives," corporations would not be flourishing as they are in blue states. With the country pretty evenly split, I don't believe only Republicans are doing business with corporations.

The poo-poo about "the base" peddled on DU and other "progressive" stops online is further evidence of the left echo chamber.

tiredtoo

(2,949 posts)
315. it apears you forgot
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:07 PM
Jul 2014

Rham Emanuals "fuck the unions" message. if you do not consider unions part of the base of the Democratic party you are being mis-lead.
And that is just one example of Democrats scorning their base.

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
318. No I didn't
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:17 PM
Jul 2014

Last edited Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:51 PM - Edit history (1)

But it's really irrelevant. We're speaking of the true definition of the base. And Rahm Emanual is a much more reliable Democratic voter than the 'more progressive than thou' types who threaten to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way.

As Will Pitt said several years back, progressives "are the single most unreliable voter group in America. Unless you are simon-pure, you are unworthy of support from that group. As no politician in 21st Century America (with a snowball's chance of winning a national election) is simon-pure, they are not likely to bust their asses to get (progressive) support."

ALBliberal

(2,342 posts)
177. agree but what about Clinton?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:23 PM
Jul 2014

I think he was a great president but he harmed the Democratic Brand badly by that misstep with ML.

But I think Gore should have recognized that Clinton is a great politician and utilized him in the election.

I mostly blame Nader and his following though. Gore on CLIMATE has to be a bitter pill for Nader voters. What has Nader accomplished in the last 14 years?

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
201. Polling proved "ML" didn't hurt Clinton or the Dem brand at all
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:40 PM
Jul 2014

Clinton came out of that whole brouhaha with a 68%+ approval rating and Dems won seats in the next two election.

KauaiK

(544 posts)
196. I said it then and I'll say it now...I will NEVER forgive Nader
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:37 PM
Jul 2014

People said Bush couldn't do too much damage because of checks and balances. HAH! EVERYTHING Bush touches he destroys.
Scalia, Alito and Thomas need to be impeached. We - this country - cannot withstand anymore law created by them.

world wide wally

(21,744 posts)
200. Ralph Nader said "There is not a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:38 PM
Jul 2014

I guess that means that Al Gore would have invaded Iraq and cut Haliburton and the oil companies the same deals, huh?

Think again, folks.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
375. Instead we get "I agree with Governor Bush".
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 11:28 AM
Jul 2014

Guess what folks when the party is dead set on "meeting in the middle" on some key differences and trying to muddle the lines on many other in a willful marketing ploy you are putting your chin out there and you are going to get tagged on the old button sometimes because of it.

Why was "not a dimes worth a difference" able to take any root? Because it only reinforced the party's own message and many policies some still biting us in the ass today with no end in sight and others we have to burn energy rectifying instead of actually moving forward.

The dawn the torpedoes, full speed ahead weirdo ideological determination to ever seek some phantom "middle" that leaderships seems believe to consist of Republicans that aren't bigots.
You add a steady refusal to both call out (other than campaigns) or ever hold them accountable and you find yourself putting out a pretty weird case all on your own. Who knows how many voted for Bush that would vote Democratic because it wasn't that much difference and they liked Bush more for whatever stupid reason.

All of that said, it doesn't much matter because Gore didn't get those votes and was not entitled to them. Who was stealing votes literally and "losing them" by the pound was Harris and her thug network.

If we wanted those votes then we should have contested for them instead of willfully alienating them and I think I probably went the wrong way in hindsight because instead of getting it and have some reconciliation and change but instead we get double down and digging in. Maybe mockery, perhaps a tut...tut...is a Republican going to do better but no movement or solidarity just "what you gonna do, suckers?" that sometimes goes all the way to fuck you we don't need you, we can move right to pick up more voters. (Never saying what they are willing to move right on to grab these voters or who they actually are while saying the critical are correct, you are trying to move right because you want to.

It is the last attitude to that makes this loyal (despite substantial misgivings) voter wonder if I have been wrong about what has been my party my whole life. That perhaps the real problem with 2000 is that the wound wasn't massive enough for some dumb motherfuckers to see clearly that you can only bend your voters so far before you don't represent them and their votes are nothing but fuel for an out of control car driven by kidnappers taking us where we cannot go.

What I see is no real values, no principles, no honor, no trustworthiness, lack of honesty for whom governing and working for the needs of our people and nation is not the goal but rather simply winning the next election. Winning elections is a necessary means but far from any real end.

Too many of us have lost our way and perhaps the only way to restore clarity is to learn the lesson that the right end of the party loves to flex, that the ultimate power over a thing is the ability leveraged by the will to destroy it.

Cosmocat

(14,566 posts)
205. the 43 going on 44 million dumb asses who voted for dipshit
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:48 PM
Jul 2014

are to blame, along with the even greater number of people who didn't bother to vote at all ...

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
206. God damn that Ralph Nader for giving some voters what they thought
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:48 PM
Jul 2014

was a better candidate than the two major parties put forward. This is really so much easier than blaming the people who voted for him, instead.

How could these people have been so stupid as to vote for Nader when we needed these stupid people to vote for Gore! We need to keep third party candidates out of elections so the people can really have a good choice between the lesser of TWO evils.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
210. Yes, we did need those stupid people to vote for Gore.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:53 PM
Jul 2014

But they didn't. And so we got Bush. How did that work out?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
214. Both. If Nader hadn't run, Nader voters would mostly have gone to Gore, giving him FL
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:56 PM
Jul 2014

by a recount-proof margin and landing Gore in the White House.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
231. Personally, I blame stupid voters for making stupid votes.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:10 PM
Jul 2014

Nader simply provided what some voters saw as a better candidate than Gore or Bush. If Gore wanted those votes (at least enough of them to make a difference), he could have had them. He chose not to do that, and he chose poorly.

And by the way, why do you think Gore would have done such a great job making decisions as president anyway? The first decision he made as a candidate was to pick Lieberman as a running mate.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
237. I agree about stupid voters. But Nader isn't stupid. He knew what he was doing,
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:15 PM
Jul 2014

and he knew there was a good chance he would tilt the election from Gore to Bush. No individual voter has the power to throw an election, but Nader did.

I don't know what Gore would have done as president, but I am quite confident it would have been a hundred times better than Bush.

bluestateguy

(44,173 posts)
223. Well they have their conscience
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:02 PM
Jul 2014

I hope they are proud of themselves for that.

They have their conscience and I guess there is nothing more important than that they get to feel good about themselves.

bluestateguy

(44,173 posts)
209. Let's do some math
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:52 PM
Jul 2014

The official numbers in Florida:

George W. Bush Richard Cheney Republican 2,912,790 48.85%
Albert Gore Jr. Joseph Lieberman Democratic 2,912,253 48.84%
Ralph Nader Winona LaDuke Green 97,488 1.63%

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/ralph-nader-made-george-w-bush-president.

cut

All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn’t even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn’t count in these calculations at all.) Nader’s 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida “victory” for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, “Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?” (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, “We find that … Nader was a spoiler for Gore.” David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, “Nader to Crash Dems Party?” and he wrote: “In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader’s Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore’s loss.” Nationwide, Harvard’s Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, “Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?” (also on the internet) presented “Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates,” showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader’s voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn’t have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn’t been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida’s Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn’t included Nader. But in any event, the largest (and thus statistically-most-reliable) sampling of the relative voter-orientations in this multi-candidate contest was the national exit polling, which showed that a net of 47.7%-21.9%, or a net total 25.8%, of that 97,488 Nader-vote count in Florida, would have been added to Gore’s Florida total. (I.e.: About 21,350 of those 97,488 votes would have been added to Bush; about 46,502 of them would have been added to Gore, for a net of 25,152 Gore-over-Bush win in Florida. Then, subtracting 537 — Bush’s “win” — from that 25,152 would have produced a total 24,615-vote Gore win of Florida. The courts would never have been able to become involved, and there wouldn’t even have been any recount in Florida, no call for one.)

more

Without Nader you would have had numbers that looked like this (below), and that's even including the cheating my Katherine Harris, Jeb and ChoicePoint.


So let's plug in the numbers then shall we?

Gore: 2,958,072
Bush 2, 933,262


A margin of 24,810, close, but enough breathing space to survive a recount.

My anecdotal experience btw, was that most Nader voters I knew were clueless trust fund brats, who never would have had to suffer the consequences of a Bush presidency.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
217. In which states did the minority that voted for Nader tip the election to Bush?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jul 2014

In other words, in which states did votes for Nader deprive Gore of enough votes to elect Bush.

Or to put it another way, in which states would Nader votes transferred to Gore have won the election for Gore?

Do you have the list of states?

Let me assure you that I voted for Gore. I was not a Nader supporter. Still I would like to know.

Second question: Isn't some of the responsibility for Gore's failed run to be placed on the Bill Clinton administration? A lot of Clinton's policies, a lot of the bills he signed into law without a fight were really bad and have been shown to have been very damaging to our country.

We are now reaping the havoc from the RFRA Act. Hobby Lobby is the product of the Congress in 1993 passing that bill and of Clinton's signing it without enough thought. Then there is NAFTA. Then the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Then there was the Telecommunications Act.

Had I not been so busy, had I not been so susceptible to a lot of propaganda and euphoria about Clinton -- which was in retrospect based on a mistaken understanding of the "accomplishments" of his administration, I might have considered voting for Gore.

Face it. Gore lost because the Democratic Party left its base out in the cold during the Clinton presidency in certain key respects. NAFTA has proved disastrous. As has RIFRA or RFRA. As has the repeal of Glass-Steagall. As has the Telecommunications Act that Clinton signed.

These were Republican bills or ideas, but Clinton went along with them without a whimper.

Oh! And I forgot "welfare reform" and some other really black marks on the Clinton presidency. It seemed a relief after Reagan and Bush I, but the fact is that the seeds of some disasters were sown during that presidency. No wonder some very smart people decided to vote for Nader. I wasn't one of them, but maybe I should have been. It would not have made any difference in California. We are pretty much a Democratic state. We have had some hair-raisingly bad Republican governors.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
262. I bet that the Bush government in Florida would have rigged the election for GWB in any event.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:35 PM
Jul 2014

Gore did win in Florida. In spite of Nader. The votes just weren't counted properly.

That Gore actually won Florida became apparent on 9/11 when the news media issued their report on the accurate counting of all the votes. The news media let you see the criteria that could have been applied in counting the votes and then underneath each set of criteria, they showed who would have won had that criteria been used. Under those criteria that I thought were most correct (without knowing the result), Gore would have won in each case.

It was how the votes were counted and not Nader's candidacy that handed Florida to Bush.

Also, the Supreme Court decision was wrong. Florida law gave Gore the right to a recount at that time. I remember e-mailing CNN about it. It think it was Greta Van Susteren who made the correction on CNN after I sent the e-mail. Don't know how many other people looked up the Florida law and pointed out the erroneous reporting.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
265. Without Nader, Gore would have won by a recount-proof margin.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:38 PM
Jul 2014

Yes, Gore got more votes, but it was so close that eventually it ended up in the Supreme Court. Without Nader, none of that happens, Gore wins clean with no courtroom fight.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
251. NAFTA, GATT, DOMA, Welfare Reform were anathema to Liberals.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:24 PM
Jul 2014

So are TPP, TISA and austerity measures.

Stop doing that shit, Democrats, and maybe you wouldn't have to worry about a tiny sliver of 3rd party voters tipping a close election.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
227. No blame for elected Democrats
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:05 PM
Jul 2014

for any of that stuff, including what they voted for, of course.

You know who I blame for the right wing judges and Bush doing whatever he wanted for eight years? The people that were supposed to oppose it and didn't because they thought it would make it easier to hold on to their cushy jobs, their power, and the money that comes with it. Or just because they don't have any guts and take the path of least resistance.

I didn't vote for Nader. I voted for Gore, then Kerry, for what good it did. (Like Alabama is going to go blue in a presidential election. ) But the silly "We must find someone to blame, because the fault certainly can't lie with US for chrissake!" crusade has been going for better than a decade now. Much like impeachment, Ralph Nader is off the table.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
229. Wrong. It's surprising this idiotic meme still gets pushed.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:09 PM
Jul 2014

Nader wasn't running as a Democrat. You don't know, and you can't say, who would have voted for what without him in the race, and by the way, it wasn't him or his supporters' obligation to try to elect Gore second.

People not voting for Gore aren't to "blame" for anything. They voted for their candidate.

Gore won the election on paper, in the electoral college, in the popular vote. He could have protested. The party could have done more. Someone could have called out the Republicans on their own fake protest. The Supreme Court have not screwed America.

A lot things. None of them the fault of Nader or anyone who supported him. They weren't voting for a Democrat. You can imagine they would have. You can claim they would have. You can say they would have, but you do not know that.

This is the same stupid crap over and over, and it doesn't get any smarter over time.

We know what it is: Conservative Dems trying to blame liberal Dems for various things, based on this specious fantasy logic.

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
235. Actually, you can infer what Nader voters would have done.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:12 PM
Jul 2014

Using polls, statistics, examining down-ballot votes, etc. All that sciency stuff that the right-wingers don't believe in.

Turns out that in Florida, the best estimates are that Nader voters would have broken about 60-40 for Gore, enough to give him a recount-proof margin of victory.

I agree that it wasn't his obligation to support Gore. He had every right to sabotage the election and throw it to Bush. And that's what he did.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
253. None of that GUESSING makes Nader the "cause" of anything.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:26 PM
Jul 2014

That's propaganda, not science; certainly not logic. It cannot be the fault of one candidate that an entirely different candidate did not win.

You don't get to assume Nader and anyone who supported him really wanted Gore to win. That's not what they voted for. You want to argue that they should regret getting Bush more than the other guy they DID NOT VOTE FOR, that's fine, but it doesn't make Nader wrong for seeking election or the people who voted for him to "blame" for anything.

If the Democratic Party doesn't want a third-party candidate drawing liberals away from the party, it is the party's responsibility to come to the voters, and bring them in, not the voters' responsibility to not like a different candidate.

That's what all of this boils down to. Party Loyalty First, conservative Dems, looking for a way to argue liberal Dems should shut up. It's backwards for the same reason it always is. The people ARE the party, not the other way 'round.

If you're losing liberals to a wildcard candidate, blaming the voters or the candidate is complete bullshit. Fix your party.



DanTex

(20,709 posts)
259. Polls and statistics aren't "guessing".
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:32 PM
Jul 2014

Nader drew votes away from Gore at a greater rate than he drew votes away from Bush. If not for Nader's involvement, then Gore would have won FL by a recount-proof margin, and would have been president.

I don't want liberals to shut up. I want the Democratic party to move left. Run more liberal candidates in primaries, etc. But sabotaging major elections in order to make some kind of statement, the way Nader did, doesn't help anyone except for the Republican party.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
264. That is the job of the party and its candidates. NOT the voters.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:38 PM
Jul 2014

It's not "sabotage" for someone to run as a third-party candidate, based on your supposition they really wanted a Democrat to win. Apparently they did not.

The response to that can never be, "Well, liberals shouldn't run except as Democrats, and liberals shouldn't vote, except for Democrats."

If you think another candidate is threatening your base by appealing to them, your only choice to is find a way to draw those voters yourself, not claim they were idiots or disloyal for not picking a candidate they liked less.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
268. Of course it's sabotage.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:41 PM
Jul 2014

Nader isn't dumb, he know he had no chance of winning. He also knew that he was taking more Gore votes than Bush votes. The GOP knew this too, which is why they ran pro-Nader ads in swing states. The only possible way Nader could affect the outcome of the election is by throwing it to Bush. Which is what happened.

Liberals can and should vote for liberal candidates in Democratic primaries. I'm a liberal and that's what I do. I also vote for Democrats over Republicans.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
274. It was not incumbent on Nader to protect Democrats.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:48 PM
Jul 2014

Nor was it incumbent on whoever supported him to make avoiding Bush their first priority. No one accidentally voted for Nader. They didn't trip and push the wrong button.

They didn't care enough for Gore to vote for him.

You want more voters, you have to win them. You can't shame them into *not* voting their conscience on the theory they should pick their second or third favorite because they have a better chance to win.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
279. True. He had the option of sabotaging the Democrats. And that's the option he chose.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:53 PM
Jul 2014

And the voters didn't have to be dumb enough to throw away their votes. They could have voted for Gore and helped prevent a Bush presidency and all that went with it. But they didn't.

So we ended up with Bush. Nader voters get a "clear conscience", the rest of us get an Iraq War, tax cuts for the rich, financial collapse, etc.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
301. Plain silly. It's not "sabotage" to run OR to vote.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:30 PM
Jul 2014

I love the chain of logic here.

- No one who voted for Nader would have voted for Bush.

- No one who voted for Nader would have stayed home.

- Further, all Nader votes somehow "belonged" to Gore, and finally,

- All Nader voters secretly wanted Gore to win, and therefore "thew away" their votes.

Complete bullshit.

Rather than whining that Nader interfered with Gore's god-given right to be elected, Democrats could have simply won by more than we did, or fought for the win we actually got.

Instead, this illogical, constantly repeated attempt to blame a candidate running for what he believed, and voters who voted for the candidate they preferred.

It's a cowardly argument. If Gore had earned Nader's votes, he would have gotten them. He did not. There's your "cause." Contorting time, space, and reason to imagine that a third-party candidate existed only to inconvenience Democrats is a flaming bag of progandist poo invented to reinforce a party-over-people ideology that is simply wrong.

There's one way to get all "your" voters behind your candidate. Represent them. Democrats can do it, but flailing away at Nader 14 YEARS after an election lost for a lot of other more important reasons for all the problems since is just magical thinking.

Or magical whining, more like. What is the point? Is the idea that liberal Dems will shut up and get in line if the dreadful outcome of allowing a "Nader" to exist can be forced into reality somehow?

Not happening, sorry.

The failure was to bring liberals in, not to keep Nader out.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
302. Of course it's sabotage.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:34 PM
Jul 2014

Nader knew that he had no chance of winning. He also knew that he was siphoning off more Gore voters than Bush voters. The only possible effect he could have on the outcome is, if the totals were close enough, he could push the presidency over from Gore to Bush. He knew that, and went forward anyway, and lo and behold, he ended up throwing the election to Bush. Sabotage.

I'm not saying Gore had a god-given right to be elected, or that Nader had no right to run against him. Nader absolutely had the right to sabotage the election and throw it over to Bush. The fact that he chose to exercise that right is what I have a problem with.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
312. Of course it wasn't "sabotage."
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:53 PM
Jul 2014

Once again, it wasn't incumbent on Nader to make sure Gore could win, or that the demographic of his supporters didn't overlap with Gore's.

You say you don't assume a god-given right to liberal voters, but frame it as Nader "siphoning off" Gore voters. That's simply wrong. Gore's voters voted for Gore. If Gore wanted Nader voters, he needed to connect with those voters himself.

That's how "elections" work.

It is not a thing that can happen that a candiate can "steal" another candidate's voters. Voters don't belong to anyone. It is not some kind of cognizable crime for a candidate to run because it is not strategically convenient to our political party.

It's our job to offer the "Naderites" a party that represents them. We don't get a free pass based on an assumption that only Democrats or Republicans can win elections. That is not, by the way, a foregone conclusion. We, or the Republicans, could lose to a third-party candidate at any time.

It is absolutely an inversion of all reasonable logic concerning elections to claim that the "reason" one side lost is that someone else should have just gotten out of the way.

It's like blaming Oreos for the lack of Chips Ahoy. If only Nabisco would stop making those damn sandwich cookies, they would of COURSE have more time to make the chocolate chips. Nevermind the chocolate chip shortage and the factory fire and the sugar theft over at the Chips Ahoy plant. It's THAT cookie over there, that caused it all!

All of this is in addition, of course, to the fact that Gore didn't lose at all. The election was stolen. So now the ridiculous chain of false logic reads as follows:

"Nader shouldn't have run, and no one should have voted for him, because only liberals who presumptively really wanted Gore to win, but were throwing some kind of pointless tantrum, voted for him, and further, Nader knew that, and further, knowing that, it was some kind of sneaky crime to run in the first place, and further, while the election was actually lost because the votes were miscounted, the Supreme Court made an outrageous ruling, and the Democratic Party (apparently?) conceded defeat for some quickie deals with the Republicans, POSSIBLY, *IF* the margin had juuuust been larger by the exact number of however many people who voted for Nader MIGHT have voted for Gore instead, everything would have been fine."

So, screw Nader! Aherm.

Maybe if he hadn't run, maybe Gore would maybe have had maybe enough additional votes to maybe overcome the miscount and maybe the Supreme Court's malfeasance and maybe the quickie dealmaking.

Maybe.

Maybe not.

It's just silly.



DanTex

(20,709 posts)
314. I'm not saying it's "incumbent on Nader" to help Gore win.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:59 PM
Jul 2014

Obviously, Nader can do what he wants. If he wants to donate money to the Tea Party, he can do that. If he wants to support Democrats, he can do that too. Or, he can sabotage them. He makes his own decisions.

In the 2000 election, he chose a course of action that could have no possible effect on the outcome of the election other than make it more likely for Bush to become president. And if he hadn't taken that action, Gore would have become president.

So, at the very least, Nader was an ally or a tool of the Bush campaign. What makes it sabotage is the fact that Nader claimed to be acting in the interest of liberal causes, and yet the predictable effect of his actions was the precise opposite of that.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
307. Funny watching some Dems show their true hatred for democracy.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:40 PM
Jul 2014

One reason I don't take the OP or his kind very seriously. I think they are trying to divide up the party and starting early for the November elections. SSDD. SSDY.

14 years later...and suddenly all these anti-Nader threads pop up at once...all randomly?

Nah...just a small group of supposed Dems that hate democracy and probably this country to boot.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
316. It's a take on party loyalty I can't get behind either.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:08 PM
Jul 2014

It sure looks like it's coordinated -- pretty wild coincidence to be beating this precise dead horse all over the site, all at the same time. Was there a memo?

I don't think it's in bad faith, exactly, in that people think they're arguing for strategies that would work. But I also think it's a rather transparent, cynical, and ill-considered attempt to squelch lefty rebellion against whomever the nationally pre-annointed, blue-chip, approved candidates may be.

Speaking of backing candidates that screw up the party strategically though, interesting that the same arguments from the same quarters screamed that Obama could never win and everyone need to lay down for the inevitability of ... some conservative, big money-friendly Dem or other ... can't remember the name.

And that was quite a bit more recently than Bush / Gore, if I recall.


 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
317. I think you have it right and I am just being a snarker.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:15 PM
Jul 2014

Just cannot stand to see people claim to be liberals and then turn around and admit they can't stand democracy. Really? I shudder to think what kind of country we would live in, if it was their ideal.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
320. Oh, I totally agree it's anti-(d)emocratic.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:24 PM
Jul 2014

Part of our party most definitely thinks the people need to fall in line behind the organization, versus the other way 'round.

I'm with you, and the herd of cats.
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
321. Oh my! Emocratic...THAT one is getting added to the lexicon.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:36 PM
Jul 2014

I think you might have hit on something there.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
277. ^^ Thread win.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:51 PM
Jul 2014


If you think another candidate is threatening your base by appealing to them, your only choice to is find a way to draw those voters yourself, not claim they were idiots or disloyal for not picking a candidate they liked less.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
233. Interesting logic.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:12 PM
Jul 2014

Nader took votes away from Gore? Are you suggesting that, any time a third party candidate runs and someone actually votes for them - it's taking votes away from the better candidate? From the more "electable"? Perhaps we need to mandate it by law then, that there are only two parties - that no one else is allowed to bring their view points or their candidates to the table. Perhaps we should further dictate that only democrats who are popular with the media may be permitted to run.

This strikes me as fearful politics, as the politics of a people who have become so apathetic and cringing that we are willing to vote for someone we don't like and don't approve of - just so long as they are "electable".

If Bernie Sanders runs as an independent - even if he runs against a more moderate democrat such as Clinton - he will get my vote. You're damn right I'll vote for a third party candidate when he better represents my interests, my principles, and pretty much everything I believe in. So take away my democrat card - go ahead. Blame me and people like me who vote for the better candidates as opposed to the letter. Please do.

This is the kind of nonsense that is ultimately going to kill both parties. We see it happening right now with the established GOP and the tea party lunatics. By driving away third party candidates, by blaming them for things that actually aren't their fault - by alienating anyone who is unwilling to vote in lockstep with us, we do far more harm to our cause than good.

Perhaps it's time. Perhaps it's time we had more of a choice. Perhaps it's time that the American people had someone who really represents THEM, as opposed to the 1%. Everyone who says it can't be done forgets history. They forget the wall that could not be conquered. They forget the ship that could not be sunk. They forget the black man, who, because of the color of his skin, could, supposedly, never be President. They forget that we landed on the moon, they forget the inventions of wonderful medicines, brilliant technologies and sciences.

The impossible becomes possible all the time. The politics of fear, of, "Let's hold our noses and vote for the one who doesn't suck quite as bad..." is no longer good enough for me.

It is my right, your right, the right of every American citizen - to vote for whomever they please. I will not be brow beaten, bullied, or pushed into voting for the lesser of two evils or holding my nose at the polls - voting against my principles.

It would be great if Sanders ran as a democrat - but even if he does not, if I can - I will vote for him. I would just as eagerly cast my vote for Elizabeth Warren.

Finally - no, it's actually not Nader's fault. Gore WON the election. He won. Period. There is rarely anymore serious argument about this among those who have studied the election of 2000. Nader did not steal the election by earning - earning - a few votes. Bush CO, through the despicable application of coercion, voter intimidation, lies, media manipulation - they stole this election. The Supreme Court stole the election. A number of those who counted the vote, or mysteriously "lost" truckloads full of ballots - they stole the election.

Once again - it is a case of blaming the wrong people. There is nothing inherently grand or wonderful about the two party system. Democrats are, to me, far preferable to republicans... in general. I would still not vote for a Democrat like Lieberman. I would still vote for a third party candidate over certain blue dog democrats who we all know quite well.

Is the democratic tent no longer large enough to include independents, greens - and more left of center liberals? You know what - I think it is. I think we can be democrats without surrendering our principles and voting for candidates we don't like. I think we can be democrats even if we don't like Clinton or Obama. I think we can be democrats even if we vote third party.

Hate Nader all you want. Hate third party voters or independents. Blame them for all the ills of our corrupted system. The reality of the situation is that it is far more the fault of the established democrat and republican parties. The corporations and the money have taken over. The media tells us who we're allowed to vote for. Talking heads suggest we're traitors if we should ever dare to differ from the majority.

Screw that. I'm a democrat - but you do not own my vote.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
242. Yes, Nader took away votes from Gore, obviously.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:21 PM
Jul 2014

Without instant runoff voting, third party candidates generally can only affect elections by siphoning of voters from the major party that is closest to them ideologically -- this is what happened in 2000. I would like to see IRV, but we currently don't have it.

Nader knew he had no chance of winning the presidency. He couldn't even win, or come close to winning, the Democratic primary. The only thing he could do is throw the election to Bush, and that's what happens.

If Bernie Sanders runs as a third party, and the GOP wins by a small enough margin that the voters Sanders took away from the Dem candidate would have changed the outcome, then, yes, he will be partly responsible for the loss. I fully support Sanders running in the Democratic primary. I don't support throwing the general election to make a statement.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
252. If Buchanan hadn't run, there might not have even been a move towards recounts too....
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:26 PM
Jul 2014

if Bush had really won the election with Buchanan's votes added to his totals. Think about it. I'm guessing if Gore had managed to win the recounts, then the Republicans would have been landing on Buchanan like we do on Nader now.

WE NEED IRV NOW!!!

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
243. Some Dems do not like democracy when it inconveniences them.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:21 PM
Jul 2014

I thought that was only a Republican trait, but as you can clearly see it is not.

4lbs

(6,858 posts)
240. Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:18 PM
Jul 2014

No candidate has won the Presidency without winning his home state. "Home state" being the state where he/she was Governor or Senator most recently.

Obama won Illinois both times

Bush Jr. won Texas both times

Clinton won Arkansas both times

Bush Sr. won Texas.

Reagan won California both times

Jimmy Carter won Georgia.

and so on.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
245. Good point. And without Nader, Gore would have become the first president to
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:22 PM
Jul 2014

have lost his home state. A much better outcome that Bush.

4lbs

(6,858 posts)
343. Although if Gore had been able to win Tennessee, the whole Florida recount and Nader voters
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 12:31 AM
Jul 2014

would never have been any issue.

Yes, I do believe if Gore had won (or actually not had the election stolen from him), that we would not have had the Trillion dollar deficit in 2008, and no double wars, and probably not even 9/11.

klook

(12,157 posts)
254. What about that bastard John Hagelin?!??!?!?!11!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:27 PM
Jul 2014

Bush "won" Florida by 537 votes. Hagelin, Natural Law Party candidate and Raja of Invincible America, got 2,281 votes in Florida in 2000.

Who do you think Hagelin's candidacy hurt more? Republicans or Democrats? How many Republicans do you know who are followers of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? How many Republicans are supporters of the U.S. Peace Government?



HAGELIN, YOU BASTARD!!11!!11!!1!!1!

bbgrunt

(5,281 posts)
258. it's posts like this that
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:31 PM
Jul 2014

challenge my desire to even lurk here any more. I'd rather read another smoking thread or another obesity thread or just disembowel myself honorably than to be subjected to another thread full of the misdirected sanctimony of Nader-haters.

Don't worry yourselves. I know how to ignore stuff/not open objectionable threads, etc., but aren't all you with NDS (Nader Derangement Syndrome) a little weary of beating your dead horse? After all, you have more than 2 years to threaten, castigate, and beat down potential 3rd party voters before the next presidential election--and then you can use actual issues and relevant personalities to whip potential party malcontents.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
263. Looks like you're not quite as good at ignoring threads as you claim.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:36 PM
Jul 2014

Apparently the Bush presidency didn't bother you too much. But thanks for the kick.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
275. His running caused Gore some problems, but he also made highways a lot safer to drive too!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:49 PM
Jul 2014

We cannot just look at mistakes a person made, and I'm not sure I'd classify Nader running necessarily as a mistake but a factor in a bad outcome we had then.

Without Nader, a lot more people would be dead today with unsafe products that he helped drive more regulation for consumer safety over the years. Let's not forget that.

We could choose to forget all that FDR did for us if we just focused on how Asian Americans got unfairly detained during his administration. I don't forget that bad problem, but on balance, I still feel FDR being president was one of the best things for our country at the time.

We could choose to forget that the Civil Rights Act got passed and that Medicare got put in place amongst other things and only look at the Gulf of Tonkin decision by LBJ to throw him in the trash too. Again, a balanced view is needed to look back at history.

Just ganging up on Nader in an effort to help those who are out to do personal character assassination on him doesn't help us solve the problems that happened then. Blaming Nader does nothing to address what happened then. Passing IRV does! I have always felt that progressives are more constructive and not reactive in problem solving. Let's keep to that tradition.

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
288. +1
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:34 PM
Jul 2014

I think reasonable people can disagree about whether Nader was right to run for president. But I don't think you can call yourself a liberal and deny the good Nader did over the years.

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
285. Shame on you for your hatred of democracy.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:11 PM
Jul 2014

And shame on the whole NDS crowd for their hatred of democracy.


Someone else said it in here already, but it bears repeating: The unstated premise of the OP is that the Democrat in the race is entitled to all left-of-center votes. Therefore, the Democrat has no responsibility to earn the votes of those left of center. Therefore, any left-of-center votes that do not go to the Democrat are "stolen".

That is not democracy. In a democracy, candidates have to earn votes. When the peasants follow their lord unconditionally, that's called feudalism.

----

Now, let's talk about Nader for a minute, since the NDS crowd seems similarly to have no concept of what liberals believe. Nader is a life-long liberal, a hero to the left of the 1970s, and a hero to liberals today, even though well-meaning liberals may disagree over whether Nader was right to run in 2000 and 2004 (I'll admit to being conflicted over that, myself). The Democrats moved to the right under Carter's presidency; they moved further to the right under Reagan; they moved even further to the right under Clinton, and showed no signs of moving back to the left in 2000. Far from espousing liberal causes, by the era of Clinton, Democrats demonstrated their "seriousness" by showering contempt on liberals at the same time as they took for granted liberals' support.

Nader did not move during that time, and ran to shine a light on how far away from their Democratic principles the party had strayed. Again, we can disagree over whether this was the right approach, but to pretend it was Nader's egomania and/or left-wing sanctimony is to completely absolve the Democratic party for having abandoned liberal causes almost entirely. Today, the Democratic party is, as Nader said, as beholden to Wall Street and the super-wealthy as the Republicans, and although Democrats are better on some issues, particularly around identity politics, the national Democrats are generally to the right of Republicans like Eisenhower or even Nixon.

All of us here are Democrats, but it's clear that some are liberals first and Democrats second. I do think there's room for all of us, but it's absolutely contemptible to pretend that liberals are somehow Republicans, and it's equally contemptible to pretend that Democrats have no responsibility to serve their supposed constituents--which is what the OP does.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
286. What? Hatred of democracy?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:14 PM
Jul 2014

I don't hate democracy. I just would prefer if Nader hadn't sabotaged the 2000 election, and that people participating in democracy realize that throwing away their votes on some pointless ideological crusade actually has real-world consequences.

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
289. I read your post, you can read mine.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:36 PM
Jul 2014

You say you don't hate democracy, and in the next sentence repeat the claim that caused me to accuse you of hating democracy.

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
290. Ok, on second thought, maybe I came down on you a little hard....
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:42 PM
Jul 2014

I still strongly disagree with the central premise of your OP, but it's clear you're not way out in la-la land with the Nader-hating, Democrat-as-a-team-sport crowd.

I think you're wrong, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness, and there are a lot of posters in this thread I wouldn't say that about.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
296. Yes, really. Without Nader taking votes away from Gore, there wouldn't have been
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:46 PM
Jul 2014

any recount or legal battle or SCOTUS decision. Gore would have won FL by a comfortable margin.

 

Personal Damon

(64 posts)
298. No, not really
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:59 PM
Jul 2014

The person who cost Al Gore that election was Al Gore. Instead of demanding a recount in all 67 counties, he focused on three, making it easy for the Republicans to accuse him of cherry-picking. A Florida-wide recount would have put him in the White House. So would winning his home state.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
304. +Thank You Dan...I will tell my story one more time, the most liberal person in America, just about
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:37 PM
Jul 2014

Dave Marsh (very famous Rolling Stone music critic and founding member of SNCC), cant stand Obama, thinks he is a rightwing Democrat and cant stand Hillary for the same reason, I could go on and on, but he will VOTE for WHOEVER the Democrat is NO MATTER WHAT because their inability to be liberal IS NOT A SMART REASON to vote in such a way to elect the righty who is FAR WORSE!!!!!

It is insane, one has nothing to do with the other.

That no mainstream Dem is liberal in his mind has nothing to do with wanting a rightwinger to win an election thru default.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?????


take your STUPID HATS OFF PEOPLE!


Dave knows what he is talking about...I dont know that I agree with his interpretation of Obama and Hillary, but so what, that isnt the point.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
369. Stupid hats? Okay, how about crazy pants?
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:19 AM
Jul 2014

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again - and expecting different results. I guess it would sound kind of weird if I said take your crazy pants off! So, uhm, maybe we should just start with taking off the tinfoil hats!

Nader did not cost Gore the election for a few reasons. Chief among them though, is that Gore actually won. He won the election. How could Nader cost Gore an election that he actually won? All of this blame for Nader detracts from where we should be focusing our outrage. The election was STOLEN by the Supreme Court, by dirty politics, by lies and manipulation of media and our electoral system.

With that being said - this whole philosophy of, "As long as vote for the democrat, no matter what they actually say, or do, or how they vote, or what they think... well, at least it won't be a republican that wins! If we vote enough... if we can convince enough people that "defeating those guys" is as good a reason as any to vote democrat.

This needs to change - because a large number of republicans are doing the exact same thing, just to beat democrats.

How about we get behind candidates who are passionate about helping the American people, regardless of their gender, race, or sexual preference? How about we get behind candidates who are fighting against climate change, working their asses off to enlighten people. How about we get behind candidates who are against the corporations and the way they're screwing us? How about we support candidates who actually believe in the same things we do?

There are many, many reasons why we need passionate liberals in government. The idea that it can't be done, that the Country is too right, is nonsense. If we can bring out candidates who believe in the right things - who have a history of fighting for them... then maybe we can put some fire in the hearts of people who almost never vote. Maybe we can put some fire in our own hearts and do away with some of the cynicism and fear that has been like a dark cloud over our politics ever since I was old enough to vote.

How about someone we like? How about someone we can believe in? I mean, as opposed to someone who just "isn't a republican". Yes, it will take courage, hard work, money, and who knows how much effort, overall. Wouldn't it be worth it though? If we could have politicians who actually got things done? If we had people who's passion and dedication inspired us?

I will not vote for a democrat just because they are a democrat. I'm sorry, that's just not enough for me. There are so called conservative dems that are almost as bad as republicans. They will not have my vote, because I do not support them, because I do not believe in their campaigns. I will vote for the people I believe in - and I honestly think this Country would be a much better place if we all did the same.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
323. stupid...and tragically wrong
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:46 PM
Jul 2014

SCOTUS was the evildoer in that melodrama. Once again, you cannot blame the participants in a rigged game.

ForgoTheConsequence

(4,868 posts)
328. Yes you do.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 06:24 PM
Jul 2014

Because it's easier than holding the guilty accountable. The third was conservative Democrats will never hold them accountable because their political outlook is a lot closer to Republicans than it is the political left.

Skittles

(153,169 posts)
324. amazing how many people are willing to minimize Nader's involvement
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:48 PM
Jul 2014

I knew when bush was installed the consequences of Nader's out-of-control ego were going to be severe, and I was right.....of course he wasn't the only reason but I found what he did unforgivable

jimlup

(7,968 posts)
331. I voted for Nader in 2000
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jul 2014

And I remain confident and proud of my vote. However, I did qualify my vote only after making certain Gore would carry my State (MI - which Gore won by +5%.)

I think this is an evolving process and we are naive to condemn people and try to incite bad feelings. It is time for progressives to move on. Maybe it is true that we have to qualify I vote based on our State's situation in the Presidential maybe we don't. But it isn't worth fighting over now. Instead we should collectively work to actually learn the lessons of history and not repeat past mistakes. One of these past mistakes would be to attack each other over what are certain stands based on things other than "lessor evil" politics like personal convictions.

Cha

(297,317 posts)
338. Poor Nader.. we're just suppose to sweep him and tweedledum and tweedledee little self
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:36 PM
Jul 2014

under rug.. like he never happened.

thanks for your OP, DanTex.. I was pissed at him at the time and see no reason not to be now.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
340. Oh no, I am having a Deja Moo moment from this.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:11 PM
Jul 2014

Meaning that I have heard this BS before.

Al Gore had more votes than Bush. Al Gore would have won Florida, had they counted ALL the votes.
It was not Nader who cost Gore the presidency. It was Gore himself, because he chose not to pursue it. He let the decision slide, and look at what happened.
The Republicans bought the courts, while interrupting the counting, and when Bush was ahead, the Supremes decided it was time to sing "Stop! In The Name Of Love." Well in this case it was in the name of their love for Bush and Republican money.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
366. I'm pretty sure the fall of Rome caused Gore to lose the election.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:04 AM
Jul 2014

It is hard to argue that there would even have been an election without the fall of Rome.

I blame Romulus Augustus.

burrowowl

(17,641 posts)
346. Like HELL!
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 01:28 AM
Jul 2014

It was SCOTUS! When the FL votes were counted, GORE WON!
Sometimes DU is almost like FAUX News!

rpannier

(24,330 posts)
353. Few things
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:53 AM
Jul 2014

1. Gore lost New Hampshire on his own accord. It's a state that went Clinton, Kerry and Obama
2. Gore ran an uninspiring campaign
3. As far as not being liberal enough, I would say no, it's not that people thnk she's not liberal enough. I would say, being too close to money, wall street and having less interest in the people at the bottom.

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
355. While I voted for Gore, maybe he shouldn't have campaigned in "Centrist" mode, or did that LIEberman
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 04:55 AM
Jul 2014

thing...

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
358. I might argue that Joe Lieberman cost Gore the election, but not Nader.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 07:41 AM
Jul 2014

I'm no fan of Ralphie. The last good thing he did was exposing the Corvair.

But Gore blew it without Ralphie's help.

Bickle

(109 posts)
360. I Nader-tradered
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 07:48 AM
Jul 2014

I traded my vote to someone in a solid red or blue state since I'm in a swing. I vote for Gore, and they cast my vote where it wouldn't help Bush. I saw the problem and voted my conscience while accepting reality

Bush stole the election as it stood, and he should be clearing brush in a federal pen to this eay

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
362. this tired bullshit meme again?
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 08:55 AM
Jul 2014

this canard pops up before every election now and it's not only worn out but wrong.
Gore won Florida. Period.
The reason he was not seated as President was because SCOTUS gave the election to shrub by stopping a recount that would have shown Gore as the winner.
So, let this meme die. If you want to encourage liberals to vote for Democrats, give them liberal candidates to vote for.
Or have our DLC masters at least consider giving liberals a topic that they can vote 'for' rather than against.

blaming Nader and/or liberals for Democratic losses will not get people to the polls.

 

Daemonaquila

(1,712 posts)
363. Time to make like a bridge and get over it.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 09:41 AM
Jul 2014

Gore lost his election. 14 years. 14 years, and some people still want to drag this nonsense out over and over. 14 years, and still some people refuse to learn the lesson that (a) BUSH stole an election, and (b) even if the old Nader whine was true, the Dems are not entitled to the left wing's vote, and if progressives vote Green or other alternative party the Democratic party has only itself to blame.

Alkene

(752 posts)
367. Thanks for your input.
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:06 AM
Jul 2014

Your opinion is important to me- so please stay on the line, and a representative will be with you shortly.

Your expected wait time is approximately 14 years.

While you're waiting, please enjoy a preview of upcoming wars, and loss of rights you can expect under the current two-party system.

Thank you for your patience; in fact, we're counting on it.

And besides, where else are you going to go?


 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
368. scape·goat (skpgt) n. 1. One that is made to bear the blame of others.*
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:17 AM
Jul 2014

Why are scapegoats used? People want to deflect blame away from themselves. It's too hard to blame the system and much easier to blame an individual. Haters desperately need someone to hate. In this case is a, not so clever, way to disparage the Left by the Lieberman Wing of the Democratic Party.

*thefreedictionary.com

raindaddy

(1,370 posts)
372. And do we blame Nader for corporate takeover of the Democratic Party?
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 10:28 AM
Jul 2014

Or do we take an honest look at what has happened to a system that allows corporations to buy elections and control our elected officials or do we keep beating the If only Nader had dropped out of Florida dead horse?

Blaming voters and trying to make them feel guilty for looking for alternatives to a party "that left them" eight years before the SCOTUS selected Bush over Gore is not the way to bring them to the polls.

Institutions become obsolete not because the people they were created to serve fails them, they fail because they stopped serving the people they were created to serve.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
382. Well, that's the thing about democracy, I suppose.
Sun Jul 6, 2014, 01:43 AM
Jul 2014

If you lose an election (even if you actually won), you can always blame your loss on the fact that in a democracy, sometimes you have opponents running against you.

Democracy kinda' sucks that way.

It would be really, really cool if one didn't have opponents in elections. That way, you would never lose.

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