how does one know if they are some open carry asshole or someone else ready to do mass murder?

Each one assumes the other is a threat and 23 shoppers are killed by stray rounds.

HA!


If I see an open carry asshole, I will leave, after informing the management that I dont feel safe in their establishment.

and then after going to a safer place, call the management to give the reason they lost my business.

Get out of the place then call to report it.

If I feel unsafe, I'm leaving, not sticking around to have management called over and have a conversation. Maybe a quick statement to a passing staff member to alert them to the fact that some dude with a gun just showed up so that they have the same opportunity to get to safety that I do.

"Stand not upon the order of your going, but go at once."

I doubt if any of my students remember that line---or scene!---though!

I've actually lost count of the number of times I've been in that scene. My favorite was as Banquo.

your state regarding guns and businesses that sell alcohol. In some states, customers with guns can impact the liquor license of a business.

https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/sign_requirements.asp

don't let them guess

or at least an email - to the owner and manager of the business stating that having people openly carry guns in your presence makes you fear for your safety, and that you will no longer do business at an establishment that allows this. Then stick to your personal boycott.

not as a matter of potential fear for my life but more the use of one of the few tools available to the public - patronage. For people who are fed up with the overly lax gun laws about the only tool you have available is to refuse to give a business your patronage when there are gun toting people running around that business. The gun issues is constantly made a matter of the 2nd Amendment to the point of sheer insanity. But if the masses take a stand and turn it into an economic issue on businesses it would be interesting to see what the outcome on the issue becomes.

So, I don't expect that to be in issue near home.

However, if I find myself in a place with open carry, and that happens, that is exactly what I plan on doing.
No question about, no hesitation. I'm out the door.
And I do hope to be able to let someone who works there know why, but if not, I don't really care.

Last edited Fri Jul 4, 2014, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Once I was with a group at a very nice restaurant, the kitchen had a fire and smoke started pouring into the dining room. We left as did everyone else. We stood outside and said goodbye to each other as the fire trucks came and put out the fire. As we turned to leave, the manager came and started yelling at us that we needed to pay for our entire order, even that which we had not received. I never argue over bills and always give a big tip, so I was tempted just to pay. But one of the people I was with argued that not only had our meal been ruined, but we were covered in smoke and very nicely pointed out to just chalk it up to a bad night. I offered to pay for what we had consumed, but the manager was very adamant and threatened to call the police on us. At that point, he was so rude and unsympathetic, we all just turned around and left.

Would a company be able to call the police on you for theft if you walk out having consumed food? Just asking any who may know as this is an excellent idea and needs to happen all over. I also heard people calling the police if you see a gun because who knows if its legal and they should check the registration. That's why they're making laws so the police can't even ask. I may have to show a driver's license, but gun, no way.

I thank God we don't allow open carry where I live. But concealed carry is potentially as dangerous if the weapon is mishandled.

Everything would have been covered by insurance in that instance, including all the food that the patrons did not pay for.

And yes the restaurant could call the police and you would be charged with a crime if you walked out without paying due to open carry. You can't use you are afraid of something and that is why you left if that something is legal. It would be like little old white ladies getting up and leaving without paying when a black man walked into a restaurant.

Might be worth it to challenge this. We always worry about the rights of gun owners, but never the people who are threatened by their weapons. The argument that "responsible" gun owners never accidentally discharge their weapon has been shown to be untrue by the amount of gun safety trainers who accidentally shoot someone among others. A gun in any situation has a potential for harm. I should be able to protect myself from guns as an individual.

I can see walking out of a store without buying, but the restaurant question came up. Probably do a cash estimate and plop it down before I left to assuage the management. Or perhaps calling the police once outside of the restaurant. I know this will piss police off, but perhaps they will see that guns everywhere is the dumbest idea ever. You never know when someone has brought in their gun to shoot, never.

Even with Open Carry it's up to the establishment to allow it or not, if the patrons are not comfortable they Management can ask the person to leave. The thing that 2nd Amendment People usually fail to understand is that their rights end where mine begin. Legal open carry does not mean they can take their firearms anywhere, if a business owner says not on my property they have to abide by that.

And if the person had some kind of identification, I would do that. But what about all the ex-husbands or boyfriends that have gone into a place of business to kill their wife/girlfriend and shot everyone in the vicinity? They had hand guns for the most part. A gun, open carry or concealed is dangerous at all times. I think we should learn to yell "GUN!" whenever we see one as a safety measure so people can act accordingly. That way the management can sort it out.

I will tell the manager I am leaving the premises but offer to give them my telephone number so we can arrange payment for any goods or services I consumed.

But I will leave the premises and as long as I have demonstrated good faith that I had a "reasonable" fear for my safety because someone was toting a gun and I had no way of knowing if the person carrying was there to commit a crime and that I am very uncomfortable around guns I have committed no crime.

I can assure you that based on those facts you would never be in any trouble with the police. You made clear your intention to pay for the goods/services but circumstances beyond your control that caused you to have a reasonable fear for your safety caused you to leave the premises.

People should be able to protect themselves from a a gun. How many stories of "accidental" discharge are there? If someone is so paranoid and fearful they need to carry a gun to a store or restaurant, what will set them off? Hitting their cart in the supermarket aisle? Taking the last clearance item? Taking a parking space? Because that is some scary stuff, so you need to stand your ground!

It could be seen as the same thing as screaming fire in a theater. I know it's difficult to tell which kind of wacko the person is, stupid wacko or homicidal wacko. I'm going to the US in about three week and will be a lot more vigilant about keeping an eye out for guns.

if in fact you do see a fire? That would be the same as saying gun when you see a gun. No one would wait until the fire actually hurts someone before warning the rest.

When talking about fire as with guns, a few seconds could save a lot of lives.

But I half agree with you, perhaps a better way would be to let management know your intentions when you enter the restaurant. Let them know in no uncertain terms what you will do if they allow a person with a gun in their restaurant while you are there. Make sure they know you will leave and they can expect no payment for food and services even if your meal is mostly consumed. Make sure you let them know that to you a restaurant meal is more than just food it is an experience to be enjoyed and the presence of a gun ruins that experience. If they hear this enough times a sign banning guns should soon appear at their entrance.

in a crowded theater (which used to be lit by gas lamps and were a terrible fire risk). Accurately yelling fire is o.k., in fact expected in the circumstances.

You would be wrong. The police will charge you with theft if the business wishes to press charges. And can take you to jail right then and there.

... as they would do that anyways.

but if there are enough incidents where open carriers are barred from businesses, you will see a very hard push for laws banning that practice, and decreeing that open carriers can go anywhere they please, and that even private businesses cannot discriminate against them.

potential harm to your family - and just because one has a carry license does not automatically mean I HAVE to presume they are safe, not mentally challenged, or about to create havoc - then they are going to have a hell of a time proving that the elements of a crime were committed.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - Charge me with a fucking crime - I would LOVE it. And I may well bring an action against the restaurant for not assuring that the gun is unloaded, that the person is legally carrying it (did they ask to see their permit and verify that it isn't fraudulent?) and the potential psychological damage from potentially being held against my will by an accomplice of that armed individual. That's reaching, but hey, that's how you get the big settlement

Oh, and what the fuck is wrong with you? Equating black people with guns? Racism with public safety?

You are suggesting that DUers who fear for their safety and the safety of their family from a deadly weapon are the SAME as virulent racists who perpetuate their hate of PEOPLE?

Seriously? That's a horrible example and borders on overt racism.

You can't use excuses like I was afraid of something as your reasoning for skipping out on paying. I am terribly afraid of spiders, I can't just up and run out of a restaurant without paying because I saw a spider. And yes saying you are afraid of a person with a gun is exactly like a person saying you are afraid of black people. Sorry if you don't like my example but what is the difference between a person crossing the street when they see someone with a holstered firearm and someone crossing the street because they see a black man? Both are crossing the street due to unfounded fears.

One should always be afraid of a gun. I am relying on the "responsibility" of a gun owner, who by his or her very need to have a weapon in public shows they are unstable and paranoid.

Police carry guns, lots of lawyers carry guns, judges carry guns, regular people carry guns. Many of which do them concealed, everyday you probably come across people who are carrying guns. People who do it open carry probably stupid attention whores but they are no different than people who do it concealed.

I don't own any firearms, don't really have the need. I live in a safe suburban middle class neighborhood where most crime is done by the children of the neighborhood. If I lived in Rural America or in some crime ridden slum I would probably own firearms.

different from your pandering characterization.

You see that your environment is mostly safe, so no need to have a gun. If I lived in a place where I might encounter a bear or moose, perhaps a gun might be prudent. But walking into Chipotle or Target? Or school, or church, or a court house?

Guns do not belong in public. If someone is carrying a gun, they intend to use it at some point. If no one is legally carrying guns in public, it's very easy to arrest those that are. Now, we are encouraging guns everywhere so how can we tell? Tombstone didn't allow guns in town because people get mad, get drunk, get stupid and shoot people. Opening fire in a crowded place means other people will get shot. People walking in to kill their ex cannot be discerned from an innocent person until they open fire. Dude walking into a mall looks like everyone else until he takes out a few.

The answer to gun violence isn't more guns: it's less. It has worked in every country that has gun restriction.

It doesn't matter where I am or what I'm doing.

If you are not around a gun or guns, you can't get shot with them.

This rule works with police as well!!!

Given the number of public shooting incidents by unhinged gun-wielders, it's the smart thing to do. And in case you haven't noticed, the open carry loons don't look like judges, lawyers, or "regular people." Come to think of it, they don't look like black people, either, so your feeble, ugly attempt to make this into a racial issue fails, as well......

Even after 15 years here, I'm not comfortable with people having guns on them. Sure it's something I have to deal with but it doesn't take away my fear. Call it paranoia if you like but to me it is a fear. I will never own a gun for many reasons. Other people owning guns...it's up to them and if they're responsible then I can't object.

I don't know if Florida has open carry but if it did... imagine someone openly carrying an ak47 into places where you might find lots of European tourists (or tourists from a non-gun culture).... the reaction to the person openly carrying around a gun (shotgun, rifle, machine gun) would be more extreme. I bet you'd have some of those tourists wanting to go home early. Rifles being carried around Disney World just because open carry is legal... the gun wielder having the full legal right to do so and Disney World having no legal reason to say "guns are banned here, go away".... I don't think that would be good for business.

Yes there are places where openly carrying a gun around is OK. Target, or any other retail store, the kiddies play park, the Library, a sports arena... Those are in my book not okay places to openly carry a gun.

Police, lawyers, judges, politicians, and many other people of notoriety have a good reason for carrying guns and rarely advertise the fact.

The nut cases we are talking about carrying their AK-47's down the street and into the local Chipolte are not people of notoriety, they are the ones that you should assume are paranoid. They are the ones afraid of an unknown threat. They are the ones that are looking for attention and people are safe to wonder how far they are willing to go to get it; that is not paranoia, that is common sense.

Two people are walking down a street or into a restaurant, one is armed to the teeth and one has no weapons at all and you call the one without weapons paranoid? Think about it.

to try and bring charges anytime.

What I think of your example is irrelevant. It is racist on it's face to equate the two.

But just fyi, not only have I walked, I invited a business to to try and get the police to charge me to make it even more public - the police laughed in their face(s). They declined, as most people running a business, and not just typing bs from their chair on the Internet, would.

Not much point in wasting any more time with you on this, however. I won't be able to read what you write, but if your ego needs it, feel free.

It is the fear of black and brown people that have the fearful clinging to guns. Also "drugs" "gangs" and "slum." It's all over the gun threads.

Then what do you call a person who sees someone open carrying and assumes they are a criminal? In both instances I say the people are acting irrational and making decisions based on their personal beliefs over logic.

In fact it's as simple and provable as 2+2=4. I still can't believe after all that has happened that gunners/NRA are still trying to push the idiotic fallacy that "guns don't kill people." Anyone who thinks that guns are not dangerous DEFINITELY should not own one.

Do people get shot by guns? Yes... Does someone die every time a gun is present? No....

Look where the guy's finger is on the right. I am I supposed to just trust that this asshole won't accidentally pull the trigger and spray bullets all over the place?

What about this guy? He killed a new father at the homecoming for his baby because he picked the gun up by the trigger

The shooter was Ayers' next door neighbor, 62-year-old Charles Edward Shisler, who did probably the stupidest thing you can do as a gun owner: He picked his gun up by the trigger causing it to shoot through the wall and hit Ayers in the head. Shisler's defense? He didn't think the gun would shoot.

""The damn gun doesn't usually shoot," Shisler's arrest report quoted him as saying. "You have to squeeze the hell out of the trigger to shoot it."

pummeled by fists of fury?

How about accidentally shot by accidental discharge of a firearm?

when there's no gun around.

Do they believe the world is really so dangerous? And much like stand your ground, it prevents them from making smart decisions in terms of safety. The last person I want around me with a gun is someone so paranoid they think they need a gun.

first of which, as you alluded to, is your brain. The world is dangerous, though the things that might more likely kill you faster (car wrecks, stress or dangerous jobs, eating at McDonalds, having to listen to North Idaho talk radio) are tough to stop with a bullet, yet the open carry folks seem to want to lead with the lump on their hip. It's like a carpenter setting about to build a house by banging on the plans with a hammer, as if that's all she, or he, knows. Carrying guns for a living, or even for personal safety (which I don't think, in this day and age, is something that should always be marginalized) isn't a matter for public display and aggression, yet they treat it like it is. Many of the open carry advocates are simply bullies, and need to be treated as such.

Given that, it may be that they want to open carry their gun because if they open-carried their brain it would get lost in their holster.

Sorry but I am not afraid of black men just like I am not afraid of guns. I would not have called the cops on Trayvon Martin nor would I have called them on George Zimmerman, I would have called them if I would have seen the two together fighting though.

Second, you are a threat to society by the mere fact you don't care whether you offend/scare/frighten/concern people with your gun, a lethal weapon, strapped to your body.

Third, anyone with a gun strapped to their body is more likely to be a racist -- yes gun fanciers tend to be bigots, not all but majority -- and actually are a big threat to minorities.

How in the heck you came up with your analogy is beyond me. If you are a gun toter, that might indicate you should not be carrying a gun in public.

But I see the same logic used here on why someone is afraid of guns as why a racist is afraid of blacks. And can you point me to your study that shows people who have guns strapped to them are more likely to be a racist, because I find that far fetched unless your statistics are only counting the white guys in the backwoods of Mississippi.

True Second Amendment absolutists like to equate gun control with racism and bigotry. The flaw in the argument is that being black or Muslim can not kill someone else -- especially from a distance.

But they don't even want to have a conversation about ways to address gun control productively.

Proof: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12626916

Amazing.

Does one have the right to flee for your life first and fore most and worry about payment later or must you stand there among the snakes until the waitress brings you your check? A man with an assault rifle is far more dangerous than several poisonous snakes.

If the police think you sat down and ordered never intending to pay, you committed a crime - theft of services or however the statute is worded.

On the other hand, if you are unsatisfied with the service, the product or, in this case, the fact that there are armed people causing you discomfort, you can refuse to pay. It then becomes a civil matter.

Intended to steal = crime.

Intended to pay but are unhappy with the product/service = civil matter for the civil court to determine who is in the right.

Now that's not to say some badge heavy douche-bag cop won't cajole, threaten or falsely arrest an unhappy customer - I've seen it happen. Cops abuse their authority all the time and they are likely to side with a local merchant. But that doesn't make it right and it opens the police up for civil action - this is why smart cops will bow out of civil matters.

I own guns. I'm not afraid of guns. I don't really even mind CCW. But I'll be damned if I'm going to hang out in a place with toothless yahoos carrying AR-15s on their chests in the ready position with their fingers on the trigger guard.

sh** happens everywhere - it's how that sh** is dealt with that determines whether or not customers will return

You could have kicked his ass!

and tried to save your life. How can you tell if the AKKKer isn't a mass murderer? It's not like you're on hunting grounds, where you might expect to come across someone with a gun.

If I was in Georgia, then they probably would call me "paranoid" and a "criminal" because I am a PoC. Where I live, my state acknowledges that guns are dangerous and so has more laws to restrict them. This new push to convince everyone that guns are safe and anyone with a healthy fear of them is dumb or paranoid is the height of gaslighting.

gaslighting. They'll have to Manchurian Candidate me to convince me guns aren't dangerous.

I work for the front desk of a hotel - I had a pretty awful situation just a few weeks back. A guest came to me in an absolute fury. The man was so angry he was shaking. "Why the (expletive) was the door to my room left open!?!?"

I was in the middle of checking in a guest, but I had to pause to deal with this. "Sir, I don't know, it's possible that one of our housekeepers might have forgotten to close it, we have a few in training right now... I'm very sorry, let me finish checking in this guest then I'll be happy to help you however I can..."

"WHY WAS THE DOOR TO MY ROOM OPEN?!?!?" I use caps to emphasize how loud he was. This was a pretty muscular older fellow (mid fifties, at a guess), probably 6'2, who's company (some sort of mercenaries) contracts with border patrol - he was from Louisiana. Bald headed, very red in the face and on the top of his head by now. At this point I noticed the gun on his hip and was starting to get a bit nervous.

"Sir, I'm sorry, I don't know... if you'll..."

"Well find out! If there's anythin' missin' you fuckers are gonna buy me a new wardrobe!"

The guest I was checking in at the time was apparently someone who worked with him. "He's had a real bad day. Good luck dealing with that one". I smiled nervously, finished the check in process and sent the guest to his room. Then I quickly called the manager who was out shopping for some things for our restaurant, to let her know what was going on.

I have a very easy-going personality. I'm one of those live and let-live people. I don't like confrontations - and I have some real issues with anxiety. By this point, I was starting to pace a bit, fidgeting with my shirt collar, and wondering if eight dollars an hour was really worth it.

The guest returned to the desk, about ten minutes after the initial confrontation. "Well, yer lucky there's nothin missin, you little shithead. Now, I'm expectin' a free meal and a free room fer the night after this shit. You better make sure that happens, boy."

Now I'm thirty, not exactly a boy, but I'm often told that I look younger than I am. In any event, it's been a while since anyone I didn't know well has called me boy.

"Sir, I don't have the authority to offer you that. Our manager should be returning soon and I'm sure that she will be happy to discuss this with you. I am very sorry for your inconven..."

"Well, that just figures. Ya can't do much of nothin', can ya, ya little fucker? Are ya tellin' me that yer company don't care? Are ya tellin' me that management doesn't give a shit?"

At this point, he was wearing a little smirk, the fingers of his right hand tapping the handle of his holstered weapon.

"No Sir, that's not what I'm saying. It's just that I can't..."

"Whatever. Get yer manager ta meet me in the restaurant. I'll wait fer someone who can actually do shit. Can ya at least give me a free meal?"

I was trying very hard not to totally lose it at this point, I was feeling a very nervous mixture of anger and fear. "Sir, I'm sorry, I cannot authorize that."

The man's smirk became a sneer. "If ya think this is angry, boy, you ain't never seen me angry and ya don't want to. I'm bein' nice right now."

There were a few more verbal exchanges, but the man eventually wandered off to the restaurant, leaving me feeling well beyond flustered and shaking. I had a pretty awful panic attack and it was very fortunate that no one else needed me for the next half hour.

When my Manager came in, I explained what had happened, with some stuttering and obvious frustration. I can't remember the last time I was so angry, or so frightened.

To summarize (at this is already an extraordinarily long post) our manager, a woman in her mid fifties who is just shy of five feet tall, walks with a constant limp (earned from years of hard work) and definitely does not look intimidating... went down to talk to the guest. He started yelling at her and she would not tolerate it. "Sir, there's no reason to yell." Anyway, he eventually apologized (to her) for the way he acted. She explained that what had happened wasn't my fault, told him he'd had no reason to take it out on me, and so on.

At the end of the night? That gentleman was comped the rest of his stay and several meals at our restaurant. I went home that night dreaming wistfully of better employment.

What really freaks me out is that people like that guy are not terribly stable to begin with. To have them walking around with open carry laws and stand your ground laws... dealing with people who are pretty much defenseless... it's a very frightening notion.

Maybe I should find a good cave to live in.

Jesus, that guy was probably roided up or amped or something. Or people just flip a switch, as in road rage. It happens. That guy was putting on a show to get free stuff and threatening you with bodily harm. If he had had a pipe in his hand as he yelled at you, you could have called the cops. But since it was a gun, you're just being "paranoid" (ask DU gunners) because guns are perfectly safe, right? It truly is a form of terrorism because the threat is loud and clear.

People snap all the time and for different reasons. I know someone who was taking too much OTC ephedra to get ripped and had a psychotic break. He tried to kill his roommate and his girlfriend with a knife. They were hurt, but not dead. If he had had access to an arsenal, he could have walked down the street mowing people down. He said he felt like he was in a video game and nothing seemed real. He was a computer genius who spent most of his time playing single shooter video games. Easy access to guns will always make a heated situation far more dangerous.

You just never know when someone with a gun is going to snap. It's so scary and I'm glad you're ok. I hope you can push your hotel to have some kind of policy that does not allow guns in the public spaces. Many businesses are doing it. Reading your story might help them to decide. Glad your manager supported you, but $8 sure is not worth it.

And if people haven't learned this yet, they will.

Gunners to babble about the millions of "safe" conceal carry owners in 5...4...3...2...

I hope I won't have to worry about it, But a few years ago when it was happening here (never experienced it myself) I was considering if I ran into the situation I would just openly laugh at them, I mean laugh really loud while pointing at them. What if everyone did this?

If I see a gun I am not really concerned unless it's in someones hand then I pay attention to them. I wonder if these people run like a roaches when cops walk into a store or restaurant.

public place. I'm sorry, these yahoos aren't normal:

?1400610224

Yeah, I would RUN outta there. If they can't even follow the rules of guns safety--which I bloody know after hearing it from so many gunners--then we're not supposed to respond? WTF?????????????

And their guns are an extension of their small peni.

Human contact is warm, steel is cold.

will never feel comfortable with seeing an average Joe walking around with a gun in plain site.

Outrageous is a gun death or injury..

Tikki

"DUer aikoaiko one of the victims in XYZ Mall shooting. Don't be sad for him, it's how he wanted to go."

why some people are aprehensive around people with guns in inappropriate places, which you seem to be poo pooing. But feel free to keep on making up stories about the meanings of my posts.

you are likely to be in.

Example - I would have the need to drive through Georgia at least twice a year. Georgia is a fairly lengthy state so it requires a number of hours to traverse.
With these new laws in place, I am wary of stopping there, even briefly; I have very often made overnight stops, which include hotels/motels as well as restaurants.

I think the owners/managers of businesses which depend on tourists/visitors should be made aware of how they may be impacted by this law. Perhaps local Chambers of Commerce as well.

Safe and secure travel is important.

Eventually the store and police will tired this and put a stop to it.

so calling them to the scene will just increase the number of people who are openly carrying in that location.

at least in theory: they don't just go to the local gun shop and load up.

Hell, I've had formal firearm training, and I don't even own a firearm.

And the store will probably ask you to stop coming into it. It would be like the George Zimmerman calling the cops every time he saw a black kid in his neighborhood.

but if it's legal in your state, there's nothing the police can do about open carry in public places.

police can't even stop him/her, and even if they can, once it's determined that the armed person isn't a threat, the police have to let them go on their way.

Several cities/states have been successfully sued by open carry people that have been illegally stopped and harassed or arrested by the police.

when they really want to check for DUI, they can stop and question open carry people with a made up excuse. They all look like drug runners to me. If the police can't stop them for carrying a gun what better way to transport drugs and ill gotten gains from drugs?

Please link to your assertion that police have been sued and lost.

First sentence of the first link:

A man charged with disorderly conduct after posting audio of three police stops involving his openly carried weapon has sued Philadelphia police.

The federal suit filed Tuesday says city police failed to train officers that citizens can openly carry weapons with the proper permit.

and put a stop to it
Though maybe not in the way you are thinking
Just sayin'

Ask for the manager.

Politely explain you saw an armed person, feared for your life, and left.

Offer to pay for any food you ate or any deli food you left in the cart.

I view them mainly as a rare nuisance. They've never troubled me and I've never heard of them going on a rampage. I'm far more worried about people who conceal their weapons.

Much ado about nothing. Eventually they'll tire themselves out and hopefully go home.

owner from a bat sh*t crazy open carry person visually before a gun (or guns) is (or) shot off?

There really is not way to tell at first glance the level of sanity exhibited by any person carrying a gun.

Edit to add - The purpose is to demonstrate to the gun lovers that not everyone is on board with their fixation and that there can be consequences to business owners when it comes to open carry. A gun owner may have every legal right to carry a gun but people have every right to decide which business that they want to patronize. It can becom an interesting debate for corporate America, which is more important - gun rights or the all might dollar.

Fine, then I can also make a statement and call the cops (I feel threatened, not sure what's going on) and leave the establishment.

and having my father shot and lose the ability to use his right hand; I can tell you I am in fear of guns. I think that if people are allowed to open carry in public the owner of the establishment must be made to provide a bulletproof "no gun" zone. This would be similar to the no smoking areas with separate ventilation that were established prior to most places going all no smoking.

I've been threatened with guns multiple times - from childhood on.

If I see someone with a gun, who is not a cop, I'm out.*

If anyone wants to tell me that my PTSD-triggered anxiety attack at the sight of a gun is an over-reaction - Fuck Off.**

Once you've had the muzzle of a weapon against you (aged 12), once you've been chased by shotgun-wielding drunken assholes (age 16), once you've stood between 2 groups of men holding guns at each other over the sale of a business (early elementary school) - THEN we can compare our opinions on the threat that guns pose.***

I will not add that particular risk to my life when I have any say in the matter.

*Yeah, trust me I know from personal family experience not to think cops are safe, but I deal with the reality.

**Hope I am not violating terms of use for saying this, I mean no disrespect to those who are not dismissive of the very real emotional cost that PTSD takes on a person. This is also not pointed at people who shoot as a hobby - I can actually still shoot in very specific conditions. (welcoming range, foreknowledge of guns present, safe environment - though I have not found these conditions present at any range since 2008....) Guns simply have no place being openly carried for no bloody reason.


***Seriously.

Are the open-carry extremists disturbing the peace? If so, you call 911 and tell the cops. Keep doing it until the stores and the toters get the picture.

A simple but effective tool to fight abuse of open-carry without devolving into a nation of whiners. Keep the focus on public safety and the general welfare.

how many insane and completely stupid people are walking around with guns. I don't feel safe around someone who feels the need to carry his rifle slung around his shoulder in Baskin and Robbins. By definition this person is a fat-headed dumbass.

If that is whining, then get used to hearing people whine. Because talking about it isn't the ridiculous action. DOING it is.

about their "rights."

Last edited Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

they have been able assume that person is there to rob them..

Can they now "stand their ground" and shoot them?...or have the security guard shoot them?

How does one assume that the gun wielding "customer" is there to buy cotton swabs & a tv guide?...or are they just a run-of-the-mill robber?

I guess we're all supposed to take our chances so paranoid people can imagine they are invincible. How we got to this point while the civilized world moves forward, I don't know. That cowboy persona dies hard. And if you're some couch slug who wouldn't know which end of a horse to feed, you can still feel like John Wayne or Rambo by plopping down some cash.

We have a mass shooting every week but we keep having less restrictive gun laws--madness!

I was a soldier (WWII -- I am old) and a cop before I became a lawyer.

This meant I was cynical and my give-a-shit meter had broken about 35 years before normal peoples' give-a-shit meters break.

Obviously, as a soldier and a cop, I carried a rifle or pistol for years. They do not alarm me, in an of themselves.

+++++++

Anyway, these guys just want attention and are not new. It's what people who feel powerless do.

When I was a cop (in Philly), it was blacks on the militant fringes of the normal civil rights movement.

They dressed in cammo, marched with rifles, and generally acted like idiots, in order to try to stir up some sort of confrontation.

Instead of cooking up trouble with them, we met with them, said it was awesome, and could they organize a bit more, get on a formal schedule, and act as neighborhood watch/guardian angels types.

They could not turn this down, as their purported purpose was to keep their neighborhoods safe.

Well, as we knew, being a watcher for some non-existent foe is boring as Hell, so they did it for a while, then about six months later, broke up and did something more productive.

++++++++++++

I propose doing the same to these guys. Tell them it's great, give them a cellphone and some very basic training, and then watch them get bored with doing what they do and they go away.

different times.

Was Adam Lanza "just" seeking "attention"?
Were Harris and Klebold "just" seeking "attention"?
Was James Holmes "just" seeking "attention"?

WERE ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE "JUST" SEEKING "ATTENTION"? OR DID THEY ACTUALLY USE THEIR GUNS TO MURDER?
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

until he found one.

paying, but what I think I will do is run out of the building and stay outside. Let them know that they can come out to us to get our money because we're not going back in. That will disrupt things nicely.

OUTSIDE because of the open carry idiot.

Then I'd patiently wait outside to pay.