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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNSA says Snowden e-mails exempt from public disclosure and secret
The National Security Agency has acknowledged it retains a record of e-mail communications from former contractor turned whistleblower Edward Snowden, but says those records are exempt from public disclosure under the federal Freedom of Information Act.
In a letter responding to a June 27 FOIA request from The Desk, the NSAs chief FOIA officer Pamela Phillips wrote that while the agency has retained records related to Snowdens employment as a contractor, they are being withheld from public examination because, among other things, releasing the records could interfere with law enforcement proceedings, could cause an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, could reveal the identities of confidential sources or would reveal law enforcement techniques and procedures.
Other records are being withheld because those documents were also found to be currently and properly classified
and remains classified TOP SECRET, SECRET and CONFIDENTIAL.
The letter marks the first time the NSA has publicly acknowledged retaining communication and employment records related to Snowdens time as a contractor.
http://thedesk.matthewkeys.net/2014/07/nsa-says-snowden-emails-exempt-from-public-disclosure/
The NSAs new discovery of written contact between me and its lawyers after more than a year of denying any such contact existed raises serious concerns, Snowden told NBC News in a follow-up e-mail. It reveals as false the NSAs claim to Barton Gellman of the Washington Post in December of last year.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I love how this story makes some apoplectic with each new chapter.
TampaAnimusVortex
(785 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Watching them flail around and looking foolish. They can continue to ignore the 100s of links provided, but it makes the rest of us realize just how narrow their agenda really is.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Actually more than one person will.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Who can still defend the NSA? Liars.
I completely agree with you.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)A direct quote from the article linked (that everybody here is ignoring):
questionseverything
(9,657 posts)William Binney is one of the highest-level whistleblowers to ever emerge from the NSA. He was a leading code-breaker against the Soviet Union during the Cold War but resigned soon after September 11, disgusted by Washingtons move towards mass surveillance.
On 5 July he spoke at a conference in London organised by the Centre for Investigative Journalism and revealed the extent of the surveillance programs unleashed by the Bush and Obama administrations.
At least 80% of fibre-optic cables globally go via the US, Binney said. This is no accident and allows the US to view all communication coming in. At least 80% of all audio calls, not just metadata, are recorded and stored in the US. The NSA lies about what it stores.
The NSA will soon be able to collect 966 exabytes a year, the total of internet traffic annually. Former Google head Eric Schmidt once argued that the entire amount of knowledge from the beginning of humankind until 2003 amount to only five exabytes.
Binney, who featured in a 2012 short film by Oscar-nominated US film-maker Laura Poitras, described a future where surveillance is ubiquitous and government intrusion unlimited.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Where are the DU naysayers and mockers now??
Crickets!! Crickets!!
I told everyone he was baiting the NSA, waiting for them to take the bait.
Those intelligence people are too stupid to be in charge of our national security.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Clearly, their management is very disorganized. They run huge computers and can't call up e-mails from Snowden in minutes or seconds? Come on now.
They lied when they denied that he had tried to blow the whistle internally. They simply lied to CYA.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)the get revealed as the right hand not knowing what the fingers on the right hand are doing, never mind the left hand.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)After the NSA released an email exchange it said was the only one between Edward Snowden and the NSA's Office of General Counsel, the fugitive intelligence contractor is practically daring them to release all of his emails, telling the Washington Post the "truth will become clear rather sooner than later.
"
"Todays release is incomplete, and does not include my correspondence with the Signals Intelligence Directorates Office of Compliance, which believed that a classified executive order could take precedence over an act of Congress, contradicting what was just published," Snowden told The Post.
In an interview aired Wednesday night on NBC News, Snowden told Brian Williams he had raised concerns many times via email and in-person conversations with supervisors and colleagues. But in a move that seemed to undercut that claim, the Director of National Intelligence on Thursday posted what it said was the only email correspondence found.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-nsa-emails-2014-5#ixzz37BY99UzA
grasswire
(50,130 posts)He is in the catbird seat. If they assassinate him, he'll be a martyr and his dead man files will be unleashed.
Nothing they can do will stop the momentum he began.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Do some reading.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)No lies.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)What you say you've read is immaterial.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Which would include any concerning the program and it's legality. The NSA needs to release them all, as requested.
Using your logic, since the NSA refuses to release his emails, it proves they exist as Snowden alleges, right?
Release them all, in accord with the request and prove he didn't send the emails. Simple.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)That's what they do.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)They lied. Not the ONLY email correspondence after all!
Snowden has asked them personally to release ALL his emails, now that they have finally admitted they exist. So why are they refusing to do so??
GeorgeGist
(25,322 posts)again.
Pole dance that rat****ers.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)emails just obtained by Associated Press pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request (FOIA) prove that senior Obama national security officials including Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and then-NSA chief Keith Alexandernot only knew in advance that U.K. officials intended to force The Guardian to destroy their computers, but overtly celebrated it.
One email, dated July 19 (the day prior to the destruction) bears the subject line Guardian data being destroyed and is from NSA deputy director Richard Ledgett to Alexander. He writes: Good news, at least on this front. The next day, almost immediately after the computers were destroyed, Alexander emailed Ledgett: Can you confirm this actually occurred? Hours later, under the same subject line, Clapper emailed Alexander, saying: Thanks Keith
appreciate the conversation today.
Its hardly surprising that the Obama Administration was fully informed in advance: Its virtually inconceivable that notoriously subservient London officials would ever take any meaningful action without the advance knowledge and permission of their Washington overseers. There are, however, several notable points from these new disclosures:
(1) How many times do Obama administration officials have to be caught misleading the public before U.S. media outlets will stop assuming their claims to be true? Just this weekend, The Washington Post described the tens of thousands of FISA-collected emails that are in Snowden archive: the very material that Keith Alexander just two months ago unequivocally denied Snowden had obtained (Alexander: He didnt get this data. They didnt touch ; the New Yorker: The operational data?; Alexander: They didnt touch the FISA data
That database, he didnt have access to).
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/11/newly-obtained-emails-contradict-administration-claims-guardian-laptop-destruction/
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)HE claims the emails exist. He is under the burden of proof for that claim, not the NSA.
Either he produces them, or he's a liar.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Considering that the NSA just confirmed their existence....
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)OOPS, no, the NSA did NOT just confirm their existence.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...I know you've got a real bug up your arse as you constantly attack Snowden and defend the surveillance state, but even you must be able to work out the logic on this most basic development, no?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)REad the damned article. The FOIA request was for ALL emails, not emails related to Snowden's claim.
I know you've got a real bug up your arse as you constantly support anything about Snowden, but even you must be able to work out the logic on this most basic development, no?
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)....you gripper...
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...who knew there were this many 'good germans' on this board?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)know who is lying here. Not to mention Bush Loyalist Clapper (what is HE doing still in that Bush appointed position btw) lying to Congress.
No, so far Snowden has not been caught doing anything BUT telling the truth, while the NSA and, worse, its Chief, Clapper have been caught lying to the American people over and over again.
So now they claim they DO HAVE emails from Snowden. Then RELEASE THEM, as he has given them permission to do.
What are they hiding? I think we can, based on their record of lying, make a wild guess.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)They had precisely NONE where he raised issues about surveillance with superiors.
So really, stop trying to defend the lying SOB.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And now they have MORE which they refuse to release. They lied, over and over again, but then what can one expect from a bunch of Republican appointees and loyalists? Which is what the NSA is STILL made up of. Why is that? Are there no Democrats who could have filled those positions and begun the critical job of reforming that Bush privatized institution into what it is now?
I do not defend 'lying SOBs' like Clapper and his gang of Bush loyalists at the NSA, never did, never will.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)They searched for a year for an email where he raised issues related to suveillance with the general counsel or other officials.
There was not a single email that fit the category. NOT ONE!
When Snowden persisted, they released the one and only email that Snowden ever sent to general counsel and it had absolutely nothing to do with raising issues about surveilllance and instead asked a question about training.
That proves Snowden is a lowdown lying POS.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)a whistle blower who up to now, has not been caught lying??
As a Democrat, the answer to that question is easy.
I missed nothing. Why is Clapper STILL head of the NSA? He was caught BLATANTLY LYING to Congress long after he should have been gone? Do you have an explanation as to why, after we threw Republicans OUT, they were left in positions of power, especially in Defense and Military positions which MOST NEEDED Democrats? Can you explain that?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He committed espionage. He's not a whistleblower.
If he was a whistleblower he would have followed the procedures for blowing the whistle. He did not.
Instead he ran and gave secret documents to adversaries of the US.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Re Snowden, a majority of the American people view Snowden as a Whistle Blower, the numbers growing as time passes and the NSA is caught lying, over and over again.
You're entitled to be part of the approx. now, thirty something % who don't view him as a whistle blower.
Snowden, like Ellsberg, is a Whistle Blower.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Obviously, we cannot discuss this rationally.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)You don't seem to want to answer that question, which is fine. But many people want to know why the head of the NSA a person who blatantly lied to Congress, is still in that position. In fact many of us wanted to know why he was not replaced in 2009.
We expected Democrats to replace Bush appointees in these critical positions. Had that happened perhaps Bush policies at the NSA would not have made Whistle Blower Snowden necessary.
So it's an important question. Leaving Republicans in these positions AFTER we throw them out, does nothing to reform these government agencies and we are where we are, dealing with lies, as we did under Bush, because we are still dealing with the same people.
I don't defend Right Wing Bush appointees who lie to the American people, sorry.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Thus the discussion is ended.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)head of the NSA? How so? Has he been fired and replaced with a Democrat?
There is no fallacy that I know if in pointing out that the REASON we got Snowden was because we STILL are dealing with BUSH POLICIES at the NSA.
Had all Bush/Cheney appointees been replaced with Democrats in 2009 and the desperately needed reforms to the NSA made, there would have been NO SNOWDEN, period. That is what we worked for, to END BUSH policies. The fact that this did not happen is WHY Snowden, like Binney and all the other Whistle Blowers during the Bush era, was still necessary.
Point out the logical fallacy of pointing out FACTS. These are all facts that directly relate to Snowden being only the latest Whistle Blower since Bush/Cheney took over the NSA.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)that something is done about ridding our government agencies of Bush/Cheney appointees and policies, something we thought we had done back in 2008. Since we were wrong apparently, it is even MORE IMPORTANT a discussion than it was then.
You are free to continue to ignore these facts, but the discussion will continue until something is done to accomplish what we set out to accomplish throughout the disastrous Bush era and the policies we are still, sadly, dealing with.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Notice how they drop a line of nothing then run off declaring victory? Same dam thing the GOP does. YEP.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)attacks about 'logical fantasies' with no explanation as to where they were. I guess it's a bit unfair to ask relevant questions that interfere with the story line, but I have a hard time with non-fact based discussions.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)... in the NSA.
Why wouldn't he?
Even if he was dead ass'd wrong on the law breaking the fact that he KEPT all the communication raising concerns that got addressed later on would exhonorate his "ends \ means justification"
Yeah, why wouldn't the guy who took\ stole 17mill docs keep his own freakin emails covering his ass
just sayin
Que flat Earthers here
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)So there can be no doubt, they denied the request for any and all emails to any NSA officials. They knew damned well and good they would get nothing and they did it so they could write a clickbait articla.
The Desk went on a fishing expedition and had to pull their line out of the water because the NSA wouldn't bite and release classified emails that have absolutely nothing to do with Snowden's claim about emails.
So again, Snowden makes the claim. He is under the burden of proof for that claim. Let him produce those emails he clams exist.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The US had best give them up. Greenwald is releasing information slowly but surely. The longer the US tries to hold back on admitting the e-mails exist, the greater its embarrassment will be in the end.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Slowly or fastly. Lol.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and once again, the NSA will have egg on their face.
The tighter they try to seal it with lies, the more glaring their deception becomes. That's how it works - if you lie too much, people stop believing you . Have fun with it!
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Just like Greenwald was going to shock the world by "naming names".
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Since the NSA apologists seem to have crawled back into the woodwork, let me try to fill in with their greatest hits:
metadata
Comrade Eddie
attention whore
perfectly legal
terrorists
frylock
(34,825 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)"FISA Court" which is only accountable to itself because everything it does is secret. That's my favorite one.
"I provide oversight of my cattle and they are on that property that I'm not paying for because I decided I was entitled to it, and if you see some that aren't tagged as my cattle doing something they shouldn't, well, that's my land anyway, those aren't my cattle and you can't prove it." They go Cliven Bundy every change they get with circular arguments that are stunningly ridiculous.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and if you want to change the system, then GOTV, which circles around nicely to something something primaries.
and the "I wish it would change, but it never will" sentiments that dovetail nicely with that.
neverforget
(9,436 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)...Who the hell defends this and why? My only conclusion is the same one that always reveals a motive - follow the money.
christx30
(6,241 posts)stripper girlfriend and boxes in garage.
Won't someone think of the boxes?!
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)"old news"
Aerows
(39,961 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)"Nothing new was revealed" and "His revelations put American lives in danger" double letter score when both come from the same person, triple word score when they use both in a single thread. I haven't seen both used in a single post yet, to my great sorrow. That would be a knock the scrabble board off the table and walk away because nothing will ever be that awesome again moment.
Ron/Rand Paul or Libertarian. Bonus points if it comes from someone that regularly defends libertarian policy against the dreaded fringe leftists. OK, you don't get bonus points for that one because it almost always does.
librechik
(30,676 posts)I am shocked.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)It's always easy to tell who is - because they're the only ones who ever raise the topics of "pole-dancing girlfriends" and "boxes in the garage".
I don't understand why the Snowden crowd are so obsessed with those subjects. No one else has ever expressed the least bit of interest in either.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)It is the message, not the messenger that matters here. I do not give two shits what Snowden, or Greenwald, or even Assange (his name has been in GD recently) has done. What matters is what the people and entities they are informing on have done.
It's like a kid was shoplifting and saw a murder, informed of the murder and everyone only cares that they were shoplifting. "Damn shoplifters must be stopped at all costs!!" The murderer can continue to murder as far as many on DU are concerned.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... that Snowden supporters keep referring to "pole-dancing girlfriends" and "boxes in the garage" in a lame attempt to imply that these are the trivialities Snowden non-supporters are focused on.
Just the other night, a Snowden fan posted that DUers had been "arriving in droves to yell about boxes in garages and abandoned stripper girlfriends."
When asked for links to same, he couldn't come up with a single one.
If those topics are of no interest to you, what purpose was served by bringing them up in the first place?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)I'm not the one posting about pole-dancers and boxes in the garage. Nor have I ever done so. Nor has any Snowden non-supporter here on DU ever done so.
Again, if these topics aren't important to you, along with the other Snowden fans who post about them, why are you the only ones bringing it up?
If there's a soft spot to be hit here, it would seem obvious that the soft spot belongs to those constantly raising this trivial BS, and not those who have shown zero interest in the topics at all.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I did not search you out. That leads me to believe that what I said affects you, at least to lead to these series of responses.
There are numerous searchable news articles (which read like smear articles imo) about the boxes in his garage if you wish to search.
Edit - here is a DU post where "attack the messenger" occurred. Boxes are one of the bullet points.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983957
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)The references to pole-dancers and boxes originated with one article. After Snowden fled, a reporter interviewed some of his neighbours. One commented that there seemed to be a lot of boxes in Eddie's garage. Others commented that they'd heard he had a GF who was an exotic dancer or a stripper, but weren't sure.
Since that article was cut-and-pasted on DU many moons ago, the Snowden fans keep bringing up those topics. No one else does - only the Snowden supporters.
So I'll pose the question again: If these trivialities are not important to anyone, why do the Snowden fans keep posting about them? And why is it that ONLY the Snowden fans post about them?
What you've said affects me not at all. But it does pique my curiosity as to why the Snowden fan base keeps posting about pole-dancing girlfriends and boxes in the garage - and then, when asked about it, have absolutely no explanation for why they keep doing so.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)If you chose not to read it or are unable to understand it, that is your issue.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... seems to be pointless.
I asked why you posted about boxes in the garage, and you respond by telling me, "It is the message, not the messenger that matters here. I do not give two shits what Snowden ... has done."
In other words, you have absolutely no explanation as to why you posted about "boxes in the garage" - which I didn't think you would.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)If you do not understand, that is on you. I have explained it clearly upthread.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Here's the original story in politico
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/10-things-to-know-about-edward-snowden-92491.html
Edited to add DU links to Snowden boxes brouhaha
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)As you can plainly see, the "pole-dancing GF" and "boxes in the garage" comments came from Snowden's neighbours, and were not comments that originated with DUers.
This question has been asked before - and no one can ever come up with any links to a Snowden detractor talking about either topic. However, there are many links available to Snowden supporters bringing up those two topics themselves. In fact, there are three Snowden supporters in this thread alone who brought them up.
If there are links to any Snowden detractor making an issue of the "pole-dancing GF" or "boxes in the garage" here on DU, I invite you - and anyone here who believes they exist - to provide links to same.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)with plenty of negative commentary. Yes, the only way DUers knew about the "negative" stuff was from reporters at the time. This is fairly normal for this site. Why are you now insisting that DUers had to have come up with the story? Relying upon source material for information has never been a problem before...
That Snowden detractors seized upon the info as provided is demonstrably true. Here's the link to the one DU thread I have saved on my phone....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983957
I'll post the other threads about the girlfriend when I get home and can search better. Or you can google them yourself "Snowden girlfriend democraticunderground June 2013". There's plenty. There was even one "random" poster who kept bemoaning how shitty Snowden was to the "poor fiance" as recently as this spring!
I'm holding horses for the farrier and Im not super focused on this.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)I asked for evidence of a Snowden detractor posting ANYTHING about a "pole-dancer" and "boxes in the garage". The original article was posted in full (via a link), and the person who posted it made no comment about those two items being contained in the article.
I was VERY specific. Snowden fans often post comments about those TWO SPECIFIC TOPICS - why? It's obvious that those who don't find Snowden credible are not the least bit interested in such mindless trivia, and never have been.
So what are the Snowdenistas attempting to prove by posting comments about those two bits of nonsense over and over again?
My theory is that it is a ridiculous attempt to imply that these are the things Snowden detractors are most interested in Well, it's been shown over and over that they're not. So why keep beating that very dead horse?
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... to the OP you linked to?
Not a single Snowden detractor commented on the "pole-dancer" or "boxes" issues contained in the original article. They instead commented on Snowden's credentials, experience, resume, education, security clearance, etc.
Again, if you can find a link to any Snowden detractor posting about either of those two topics, please post the links.
I was told just this past week by a DUer that the Snowden naysayers "came out in droves" to post about those topics - so finding a link or two shouldn't be too difficult.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Here's the first link that comes up with the pole dancer slam... again by anti-Snowden DUers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022990837#
You asked for info from another poster and I'm simply trying to help out. I'm not entirely freed up to spend a shit load of time on this at the moment. Feel free to google it yourself. There's plenty...
... if you really care.
This is way OT from the OP. Why don't you make an OP about it?
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... should refrain from posting articles about him?
You're just not getting it. Where oh where has any Snowden detractor ever raised the issue of Snowden's GF or boxes in the garage as being in any way germane to Snowden's actions, motives or credibility?
Has anyone here ever said, "Well, the fact that his GF is a pole-dancer is important in assessing his credibility"? Or, "The fact that he had boxes in his garage leads me to believe he's lying"?
This thread is about the NSA saying that Snowden's emails are exempt from public disclosure. That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with GFs or boxes. So why are the Snowden fans - and ONLY the Snowden fans - bringing it up as though it does?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Your hypothesis is wrong. It's also wholly unrelated to the subject matter in the OP, but it's a nice diversion if you're not inclined to want to talk about the lying fucks at NSA. Yes, I'm aware you didn't bring up boxes and pole dancers in this thread, but you've now talked about it more than anyone else in an attempt to discredit "Snowdenistas".
I wish you hadn't decided to leave DU. I always used to enjoy your posts (way back in the dope leaf days) and your recent non-post posts make me wish you'd come on back.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)"Pole-dancing girlfriends" and "boxes in the garage" are WHOLLY UNRELATED to the subject matter of the OP.
I didn't bring it up - three Snowden-supporters did. Just as Snowden-supporters bring it up in other threads about Eddie.
If bringing up "GFs and boxes" is, as you say, "an attempt to discredit the Snowdenistas", why is it that the Snowdenistas are the only ones who raise it in the first place? Are they attempting to discredit themselves by doing so?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)There are pro NSA people here who have used the boxes in the garage and the pole dancer girlfriend to try to put Snowden down. You've been shown at least one of these threads. Others are very easy to find. That you refuse to acknowledge this does fuck all to change the fact that it's true. You're just playing games and you're not to be taken seriously so long as you continue with this approach. I've known of you on DU for...10, 12, 14 years...whatever the case, it's a lot longer than Obama has been President. It's likely we will see one another in these pages long after he isn't president. One of these days, we'll have another Republican at the helm. When their dastardly spying maneuvers are uncovered, as some certainly will be, I won't be the only member here who recalls the hypocrisy of all those who shilled for the surveillance state, covered for lying thugs, and helped to further erode the Constitution. You, me, and everyone else here will have our reputations to live with long after President Obama has gone back to private life. Our character and reputations will follow us, for good or for ill. For me, this is worth consideration.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... finding Snowden to be less than credible does not equate to being pro-NSA. It's not an either/or proposition. One can believe the NSA has been lying while ALSO believing that Snowden is lying. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.
Secondly, if there are indeed what you have called "pro-NSA people" here who "have used the boxes in the garage and the pole dancer girlfriend to try to put Snowden down", please provide the links to same. The only people who consistently bring up the "pole-dancer and boxes in the garage" memes are the Snowdenistas.
There are three "GFs and boxes in the garage" comments in this thread alone - all posted by Snowden fans. So where are the "pro-NSA people" who are posting about this?
Pointing out the holes in Snowden's version of events is not a matter of defending the NSA - it is what it is, pointing out the holes in Snowden's version of events.
Snowden was asked point-blank what illegal activities the NSA is engaged in. He couldn't come up with a single example. That's something the Snowden supporters have yet to address - other than to post "but he had boxes in his garage", as though that somehow answers the question.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)There are others if you really care (which I presume you won't because it's far easier to just complain then do your homework).
As far as how those memes have been seized upon, and how others have run with the boxes and pole dancing girl friend to mock those who tried their best to demonize Snowden in any possible manner, I will point to the fact that only ONE DUer suggested Olive Garden as a restaurant choice in NYC in all of DU history yet that is another meme that refuses to die here.
Sometimes it only takes one, and the bitter comedic value is just too sweet to let go.
If the anti-Snowden/Greenwald group hadn't gone to such ridiculous lengths in the first place to try to smear them the pushback might have died. The early days of the NSA scandal were awash in threads trying to discredit THEM instead of focusing in on the illegality of the NSA.
You all brought it on yourself. Just like RadioLady and DU will forever own the Olive Garden comment, you all will forever own "garage boxes" and "pole dancer girlfriend".
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... prove MY point, not yours.
Again, read the comments in your own link to the OP containing the original article citing "boxes in the garage". The only posters who picked up that meme and ran with it are Showden supporters. The Snowden detractors never mention it once in their replies - they instead discussed Snowden's resume, work history, military service, education, etc.
And the reason that meme refuses to die here is simple: the Snowden fans keep posting it in threads about Snowden - three of them did so right here in this thread.
Here's a link to an OP asking for examples of a Snowden detractor attempting to smear Eddie for having "boxes in his garage". You participated in this thread yourself. Examples found? Zero.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024842736#post39
If I now own "garage boxes" and "pole dancer girlfriend", can I expect royalties whenever those phrases are used? If so, I will be collecting those fees from Snowden fans, because they're the ONLY ones who ever use them.
Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #223)
Post removed
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The article I copy and pasted referenced a local reporter who interviewed Snowden's neighbors.
Snowden's neighbors told the reporter everything they know about him. The neighbors said a lot of things including the fact that they saw boxes piled floor to ceiling in his garage. I didn't think anything of it at the time and the article I posted wasn't focused on boxes in his garage.
Nobody on DU actually disparaged Snowden for having boxes in his garage and nobody has been able to provide a link to a DUer disparaging Snowden for having boxes in his garage.
The only people who really focused on boxes are Snowden's supporters. As you can see above, they are the only ones who even bring it up.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Demonizing Snowden.
I'm on my phone where posting links is tough but you'll see instantly that the anti-Snowden/Greenwald crowd struck fast and furiously....
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Remember the NSA's power point slide on disruption of internet discussions.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)No doubt the NSA has focused its attention on disrupting DU discussion. Got to give them kudos for doing so. After reading everyone's emails and listening to everyone's phone calls, they still make time for more important tasks - like posting on DU.
MADem
(135,425 posts)that young lady was doing for sport. She was a young person who enjoyed athletics and social media and enjoyed communicating in a creative way--that describes a fair percentage of the young people in her age range.
I rather quickly learned, thanks to the rather copious media coverage, that people do this pole dancing as a form of exercise, they keep their clothes on, and it is HARD to do. It's quite an athletic endeavor, and she was good at it. She was also good at something called "silks" which is the kind of thing we see at Cirque de Soleil--hanging off of giant pieces of fabric high off the ground. She enjoyed dance and exercise--what nice areas of interest. I don't remember any long, drawn out Ooooh La La about her activities once it was revealed that she belonged to a club of artists who did this stuff.
She needed an exercise room and the garage was nice and clean and filled the bill--the boxes kept people from looking in while she was doing her workouts (and from a practical standpoint, if ES knew he was going to do a runner, at least she had boxes to move out of that joint).
But yeah, the "Waaah pole dancer boxes" thing comes up all the time. It's silly because they're the only ones "Waaaah-ing" about it.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... who she was, or what she did.
(As for pole-dancers, strippers, whatever, in general - I believe a woman should do whatever she wants to do, and I don't see anything morally wrong with those professions at all.)
The Snowdenistas constantly bringing up the pole-dancer and the boxes serves two purposes, I believe: It is meant to imply that the only thing Snowden detractors are interested in is the BS trivial matters that the MSM glommed onto early in the piece. It is also meant to imply that any questioning of Snowden's credibility is equivalent to whining about GFs and boxes - i.e., trivial and not to be taken seriously.
Being as it is ONLY the Snowden fans who make comments about GFs and boxes, and never the non-supporters, it should be obvious by now that the Snowden non-supporters are not interested in those trivialities, and never have been.
But it's a dead horse they insist on catapulting into the discussion, nonetheless - and when asked about it, they never seem to have any explanation whatsoever for why they feel a need to do so.
MADem
(135,425 posts)disparaging his girlfriend, or his boxes.
I've ONLY seen it coming from the fan club. Every time there is a Snowden thread, I have seen the fan club COMPLAIN about it, but I've never seen anyone, save them, obsessing about those two topics. Most of the time, no one even replies. I'll wager there are plenty of people who forgot he even had the girlfriend.
The only times I've seen the girlfriend mentioned (and I haven't seen that since right after he did a runner) it was to mention that she was fit and attractive--and a lot of the people saying those sorts of things were aligned WITH Snowden, not opposed to him. Some of the coverage was in magazines that appeal to young men of a certain age, but in the context of political discussions about what Snowden did, that is most assuredly a peripheral--and it is odd that it's so often used as a roadblock, here--it's like they've got nothing else.
She enjoyed being involved with social media, but she also knows how to keep the profile low-she easily could have monetized the hell out of her circumstances, but she didn't do that. Why would anyone want to make fun of someone who has retreated from the public eye and is living her life privately? The answer is that no one would, so I don't know why the fan club just doesn't leave the woman alone, already?
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)It is true that those particular attempts to discredit Snowden are no longer used due to their enormously embarrassing nature, but those were some of the first shots from the pro-NSA-protect- Obama-at-al- costs crowd. Perhaps you missed them?
The very same people that launched those hilariously pitiful salvos are still trying to discredit Snowden, so it goes to show you where their mindset is. Sure, they've moved on to shouting "Comrade Eddie", "attention whore", "old news", etc., but only because "boxes" and "abandoned pole-dancing ballerina" made them such laughing stocks.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)You said it better than me.
Thanks!
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)This query has been made before by others. And no one has been able to come up with any links to a Snowden detractor raising "pole dancers" or "boxes in the garage" in any discussion threads about Snowden's actions, statements, or claims - other than Snowden fans.
In this thread right now, three posters commented about "boxes in the garage" - all three are staunch Snowden supporters.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Because the OP was cutting and pasting an article you want to dismiss the idea altogether. Sorry, the defend Obama crowd no matter what has been trying to belittle Snowden and kill the messenger from day one. The fact that you are trying to claim the high road while using the diminutive "Eddie" is rather amusing.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)You think that a poster providing a link to an article means they adopt everything said in the article?
Can you provide a link to the OP who posted the Politico article saying, "And I think the part about boxes in the garage or the GF are relevant"?
Can you provide a link to anyone replying to that OP stating anything about the importance of boxes in the garage or GFs? Again, the only responders in that thread who mentioned it are Snowden supporters.
So where are the links to Snowden detractors making an issue of 'boxes in the garage'? Oh, that's right - there aren't any.
It is laughably ironic to hear a Snowden fan talk about "the defend Obama no matter what" crowd. The far more vocal group here is the "defend Snowden/Greenwald no matter what" crowd.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)posted by DUers who have tried to belittle Snowden since day one.
Now your argument has devolved into trying to claim that those posting those negative articles don't necessarily agree with them. Because somehow they posted these extremely negative (and meme-inducing hilariously awful) threads without actually agreeing with what they posted.
Surely you realize how desperate this argument sounds, especially while using the terms Snowdenistas and Eddie?
Goodness, you really need to step back and look at how silly you are making yourself sound.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)You will see that from the start, I have been EXTREMELY SPECIFIC about asking for evidence that Snowden detractors have used references to pole-dancing GFs or boxes in his garage in order to belittle Snowden, or cast doubt on his credibility.
My argument was NEVER that anti-Snowden articles, posts, replies to OPs, et cetera don't exist. OF COURSE THEY DO! That's the nature of a site such as this. There are, I'm sure, literally thousands of anti-Snowden comments that have been posted to date.
"Now your argument has devolved into trying to claim that those posting those negative articles don't necessarily agree with them."
Not even close, my friend. I explicitly pointed out that the person who posted that article did not so much as comment on the "pole-dancing GF" or "boxes in the garage" - because THAT is what this entire discussion has been about, the use of those TWO specific terms
If anyone is being 'silly' here, it is you. How you could read my posts in this thread - where I have repeatedly asked for examples of the use of two very specific terms - and thought they encompassed any and all anti-Snowden posts is, quite frankly, beyond me.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I can't imagine that in all honesty you believe those threads were posted for any reason other than to try to discredit Snowden. The sole reason to post those derisive articles was to try to assassinate Snowden's character in an attempt to bury the NSA spying scandal. They were without question an attempt impugn him. There were multiple threads trying to attack Snowden for his girlfriend, on multiple fronts, whether it was inferred she was a stripper or whether it was that Snowden had "abandoned" her. Making believe that they were anything other than attacks begs belief.
Here, I suspect, is the real problem: In the first days after the NSA spying revelations, some people were concerned how this would reflect on the President and determined to attempt to discredit Snowden. Some of the early attempts were astonishingly ill-conceived and were rightfully meet with immediate mocking and derision. The boxes and pole-dancer memes were spawned.
Those were the first, clownish attempts. As I said in my first post, they are no longer used by the anti-Snowden crowd because they are so embarrassing. Likewise, they are used anti-NSA crowd precisely because they are embarrassing--to the anti-Snowden crowd. It shows to exactly what lengths they would go, albeit ineptly, to try protect Obama. I suspect the anti-Snowden crowd doesn't like it brought up for precisely this reason and wish any such reference would be dropped.
Nonetheless, those threads were started by the anti-Snowden crowd in amateurish attempts to discredit him. To argue otherwise is simply intellectually dishonest. The fact that they didn't continue to use these points of attack after being so severely slapped down is hardly surprising.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)1) You can't provide a link to posts where DUers specifically attacked Snowden for having boxes in his garage.
2) The only link you can provide is to a copy and paste article which references a Telegraph story which references a local reporter's interview of neighbors who told the reporter everything they know about Snowden. One thing the neighbors mentioned among other things was that Snowden had boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage the entire time he lived there.
3) This is your evidence that DUers attacked Snowden for having boxes.
The only DUers who mention boxes are ardent Snowden/Greenwald supporters like yourself.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Throughout this sub-thread, I have asked - SPECIFICALLY and REPEATEDLY - for links to posts by Snowden detractors who raised the specific topics of pole dancing GFs and/or boxes in the garage.
This discussion was NEVER about anything else but that very specific topic. It was NEVER about anti-Snowden OPs, comments, articles, replies, etc.
"As I said in my first post, they are no longer used by the anti-Snowden crowd."
The term "no longer used" implies that they WERE used by Snowden detractors at some point.
Again, I ask you to post links to any Snowden detractor using any specific reference to pole-dancing GFs or boxes in the garage in a thread about Snowden.
This is not the first time DUers have been challenged to do so. And not a single link has ever been provided to support that claim.
"The fact that they didn't continue to use these points of attack after being so severely slapped down is hardly surprising."
Again, provide the links to comments about pole-dancing GFs and/or boxes in the garage that were, as you claim, "smacked down".
And YET AGAIN - just so we're perfectly clear - I am asking for specific comments from Snowden detractors to pole-dancing GFs and/or boxes in the garage - not to other anti-Snowden comments that you might find offensive or trivia, but SPECIFIC REFERENCES to THOSE terms.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)than this sort of intellectual dishonesty, but you seem intent on proving my belief wrong.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... to Snowden detractors making reference to "pole dancers" and/or "boxes in the garage".
That was my sole request throughout.
Found any yet?
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Your inability to provide the links Nance has asked for proves you have no evidence to backup your assertion.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Awesome.
LMAO
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Neighbors telling a local reporter that they saw boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage the entire time he lived there counts as DUers attacking Snowden for boxes?
Bzzzzztttt!!!
Epic fail.
Still no link to DUers attacking Snowden for boxes.....
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)How absurd.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Maybe they should take it up with Google in the EU to delete the evidence that posters here gleefully engaged in a smear campaign, and they look like fools.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... or anti-Snowden comments.
It's about the specific issue of whether Snowden detractors have referenced "pole dancing GFs or boxes in the garage" in their comments about Snowden.
The verdict is in - no one has been able to provide a single link to a Snowden detractor raising those topics.
If you do a DU site search, however, you will find dozens of examples of Snowden fans raising those topics in their comments - three of them did so in this thread alone.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)"The verdict is in"
Are you banging a little gavel when you type that?
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... pretend there isn't a smear campaign? I didn't even mention a smear campaign.
Read the sub-thread. I refer to the specific terms pole-dancing GF and/or boxes in the garage throughout.
I think most people are familiar with the term "the verdict is in" and what it implies. There have been people in this thread, and in other threads on the topic, that have insisted that Snowden detractors bring up "dancing GFs and boxes" in order to smear Snowden.
Not a single link to any such occurrence has been provided - here, or in other threads that asked for the same evidence.
So the obvious 'verdict' here is that no such evidence exists, in view of the fact that no one is able to provide any.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You are unable to link to a single post where a DUer disparages Snowden for having boxes in his garage.
An article referencing a reporter who interviewed neighbors? The neighbors weren't even disparaging Snowden for having boxes. The neighbors told the reporter everything they know about him including the fact they saw boxes floor to ceiling in his garage. There was no disparaging him over boxes.
The fact that you are unable to link to a single post where a DUer disparages Snowden for having boxes is quite telling. The only people who mention boxes are Snowden supporters.
It's rather pathetic, but amusing at the same time.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I have to hand it to you Cali Democrat-- the person who posted the "boxes" article in the first place -- not once but twice, mind you--now claiming it wasn't an attempt at character assassination!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Posting an article where neighbors interviewed by a local report say they saw boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage....
...that's character assassination of Snowden!!!
It also apparently means hordes of DUers attacked Snowden for having boxes!!
but still no links....
You really are a hoot!!!
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Because posting that hit piece--TWICE!-- well that was actually in support of Snowden, am I right? I mean, saying he didn't have a high school diploma, wasn't a friendly neighbor, was hired as a security guard...none of that was meant to try to discredit him. No! Ditto with the pole dancer slams! Not meant to detract from the spying at all, just helpful information. Why, none of the innocent posters here would try to discredit "Eddie", would they?
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)It was an article that mentioned neighbors who were interviewed by a local reporter.
The fact that you are unable to provide a single post to DUers disparaging Snowden for having boxes is quite telling, but also funny as hell. The only people who bring it up are Snowden supporters like yourself. It was a strawman invented to deflect any kind of criticism.
The only people who mention boxes and his GF are his ardent supporters.
The fact that you viewed the neighbor's statements as character assassination shows that you perceive almost everything are criticism of Snowden.
And still no link to hordes of DUers disparaging him for having boxes.
That's because the links don't exist.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)LMAO!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Still waiting....
Methinks I'll be waiting forever!
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)LMAO!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Just curious...
grasswire
(50,130 posts)This thread is a classic example of it. Seize on a tiny detail and generate disruption of the topic itself. Not only is it tiresome, but it is a futile effort.
Snowden has won already. He achieved his goal. He started the conversation on the surveillance state. That was his objective. And no arguments about details will derail that.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Could you expand on that please?
Who is leading this so-called "orchestrated disruption"?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Fish somewhere else.
It is what it is, and everyone knows it.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)to any reading this thread.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)The argument that, 'yeah, we posted that crap (multiple times!), but the fact that we didn't specifically post further about several of the details proves we weren't using it as character assassination and can you please stop mentioning it?' is beyond laughable.
As is claiming they aren't engaged in attempting to discredit Snowden while derisively calling him "Eddie".
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)What you're essentially saying is that neighbors telling a local reporter that they saw boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage counts as DUers attacking Snowden for having boxes.
You can't provide actual links to DUers attacking Snowden for boxes because they don't exist.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... is orchestrating the "orchestrated disruption"?
"Snowden has won already. He achieved his goal. He started the conversation on the surveillance state. That was his objective. And no arguments about details will derail that."
To state categorically that "no arguments about details will derail that" means that no details to the contrary of Snowden's version of events - no matter how legitimate those details are, nor how legitimate their source - will not be accepted by the Snowdenistas.
We already knew that.
But I'm still curious as to who is behind the "orchestrated disruption". Care to elaborate?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)bobduca
(1,763 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,922 posts)Edward Snowden burst in public view when the 29-year-old identified himself as the source of leaks about the National Security Agencys surveillance of Americans. Here are 10 things to know about Snowden.
1. Doesnt have a high school diploma. According to The Guardian, which published the first story about the NSA surveillance, Snowden never finished his high school coursework, taking classes at a community college in Maryland but not completing those, either. The paper reported he did obtain a GED later.
2. Donated to Ron Paul. Zeke Miller of Time reported that Snowden made two $250 donations to the libertarian presidential candidates 2012 campaign. Snowden told The Guardian he voted for a third party in 2008 rather than President Barack Obama.
3. Wasnt a friendly neighbor. Snowden most recently lived in Hawaii with his girlfriend before leaving in early May, and neighbors say he didnt stop to chat much. According to The Telegraph, a neighbor told a local television station: We occasionally saw him as he was coming or going, or checking mail, or getting the garbage. We would say Hi, hows it going? How are you? and he would just rush inside. [font size = 12]Neighbors also said Snowden had boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage for the entire six months he lived there. [/font]
(Emphasis added because come on, it's right in the OP.)
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)In the article above, the neighbors told the local reporter everything they know about Snowden as a neighbor including the fact that they saw boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage. The neighbors weren't disparaging him over it and I certainly saw no DUers disparage Snowden over it.
The only people who mention boxes and his GF are Snowden supporters.
Unless you can provide an actual link?
Methinks you cant.
Dr. Strange
(25,922 posts)Why did the neighbors mention it?
Why did you link to it?
It's a completely inane triviality, but somehow you and the neighbors wanted attention brought to it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2984073
Fine, you provided us with the ever-important fact that he had boxes in his garage. Pardon us while we mock the shit out of that, just like the moon-bombing threads of yore.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)But I can tell you that I posted the article over a year ago because there was additional information about Snowden I wasn't aware of.
I really didn't think anything of the boxes. In fact, the only people who bring that up are his supporters. I don't even think the neighbors actually attacked him for having boxes. They just told the local reporter everything they know.
BTW, can you provide any link to a DUer attacking Snowden for boxes?
The only people who bring up boxes are his ardent supporters.
Funny stuff.
Dr. Strange
(25,922 posts)That's why people mock it.
I think the NSA cheerleaders realized that early on, and try to avoid bringing it up. But outside of James Clapper, I don't see how anyone can pretend that the box issue was created by any Snowden supporters.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Nobody, including yourself, has been able to provide a link to DUers attacking Sowden for having boxes.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)You're a little late with that one.
The link to the OP that cut-and-pasted that article has been posted in this thread several times now, and has been discussed at length. There has never been any dispute as to where the memes originated - we are all agreed on that.
If you read this entire sub-thread, you will see that the argument has been that Snowden detractors have often used the terms "pole-dancing GF" and/or "boxes in the garage" in threads about Snowden. So I asked for links to where Snowden detractors have done that. So far, nada. No links have been provided to any Snowden detractors using those terms.
If you read the comments to the OP you've linked to, you will see that the Snowden detractors never referred to the terms "pole dancing GF" or "boxes in the garage". They instead commented on Snowden's credentials, experience, resume, education, etc. It was only the Snowden fans who posted comments about those two bits of mindless trivia - and they continue to do so. In fact, three of them did so in this thread we're participating in.
MADem
(135,425 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... raising his concerns about NSA conduct - they've been "missed" because they didn't happen.
MADem
(135,425 posts)have used that time to hunt through his thumb drives and find those, or tell his surrogates where he stashed them in "the Cloud."
He hasn't even executed a release form!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)apparently found more, but for some reason despite his TELLING THEM TO RELEASE THEM, 'can't release them'. Lol, when your chief lies to Congress, when the organization itself is caught in a lie, then claims, yes, we have emails but we can't release them'? Put it this way, they've been caught lying, proving Snowden to be correct, so they have little credibility if any, at this point.
All they have to do is release the 'newly discovered' emails, then we can judge for ourselves.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Linda Tripp is a rich woman because the government released her personnel records without permission.
He's insisting that he wrote documents relating to national security concerns, they're saying they don't have anything like that on file. The one document they released had nothing to do with national security concerns, it had to do with a question about what takes precedence. It was a nuts-and-bolts question, directly related to some training he received. It wasn't a smoking gun and even he said as much.
If he wants to execute a release, in writing, he should just do it and let it all out there.
Otherwise, if he has copies--and if he doesn't, he's either an idiot or they don't exist--he needs to release them. He's coming off like a boring tease at this point.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Recommend!
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)which were under investigation now... that was cute
destroy by water damage.
The National Security State.. CIA/NSA are doing a dandy job.
Obama wasn't even told about the caught CIA agent in Berlin while he was talking to Merkel .... The CIA didn't tell him
This shows who is really in charge
Ike was made a fool of my the CIA during the Gary Powers affair
right at the time of negotiations. Never mind JFK's dealings with them.
Houston we have a problem
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)constitutional.
Now we have proof that Obamas most senior officials were aware in advance of the very events that Obamas spokesman pretended they knew nothing about. Its possible, though unlikely in the extreme, that both Clapper and Alexander knew about this and neglected to tell anyone in the White House. Incredibly claiming that Obama was unaware of what his most senior national security officials get caught doing is this administrations modus operandi: See, for instance, this and this. But that should raise the questionyet againof whether these national security agencies are completely rogue and operating without any controls.
And whatever else was true: Obamas senior officials were clearly delighted at this attack on press freedom while Obamas press secretary pretended that the U.S. would never regard such behavior as appropriate. As The Guardian said today about all of this: Whats perhaps most concerning is that the disclosure of these emails appears to contradict the White Houses comments about these events last year, when they questioned the appropriateness of the U.K. governments intervention.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/11/newly-obtained-emails-contradict-administration-claims-guardian-laptop-destruction/
Fortunately, Snowden was apparently one of the more intelligent employees of the NSA secret government.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Announcing they were not investigating the CIA spying on the Senate.
That told me more about the CIA than it did about the Justice Department,
Then it was announced that the CIA torture report would be delayed for at least 6 months because 'national security' or some crap excuse and the CIA won again.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)questionseverything
(9,657 posts)can not get justice department to investigate the cia
it shows whoever really runs the cia , runs the country ,no matter who we elect pres
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....who defend this rogue shadow government.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)à la Dick Cheney.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)in the press. Eyebrows should have been raised. Thoughts of Nixon should have crossed the mind. Nothing......
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Oh well. On to Plan D-437-X and forget that Booz Allen Hamilton is owned by Carlyle Group, a subsidiary of the BFEE.
From the linked article.
They requested ALL Snowden emails, so your statement is erroneous.
But don't let the facts stop your outrage.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)From before your time: Know your BFEE: The Carlyle Group.
Behind the Curtain: Booz Allen Hamilton and its Owner, The Carlyle Group
Written by Bob Adelmann
The New American; June 13, 2013
According to writers Thomas Heath and Marjorie Censer at the Washington Post, The Carlyle Group and its errant child, Booz Allen Hamilton (BAH), have a public relations problem, thanks to NSA leaker and former BAH employee Edward Snowden. By the time top management at BAH learned that one of their top level agents had gone rogue, and terminated his employment, it was too late.
For years Carlyle had, according to the Post, nurtured a reputation as a financially sophisticated asset manager that buys and sells everything from railroads to oil refineries; but now the light from the Snowden revelations has revealed nothing more than two companies, parent and child, bound by the thread of turning government secrets into profits.
And have they ever. When The Carlyle Group bought BAH back in 2008, it was totally dependent upon government contracts in the fields of information technology (IT) and systems engineering for its bread and butter. But there wasn't much butter: After two years the companys gross revenues were $5.1 billion but net profits were a minuscule $25 million, close to a rounding error on the companys financial statement. In 2012, however, BAH grossed $5.8 billion and showed earnings of $219 million, nearly a nine-fold increase in net revenues and a nice gain in value for Carlyle.
Unwittingly, the Post authors exposed the real reason for the jump in profitability: close ties and interconnected relationships between top people at Carlyle and BAH, and the agencies with which they are working. The authors quoted George Price, an equity analyst at BB&T Capital: "[Booz Allen has] got a great brand, they've focused over time on hiring top people, including bringing on people who have a lot of senior government experience." (Emphasis added.)
For instance, James Clapper had a stint at BAH before becoming the current Director of National Intelligence; George Little consulted with BAH before taking a position at the Central Intelligence Agency; John McConnell, now vice chairman at BAH, was director of the National Security Agency (NSA) in the 90s before moving up to director of national intelligence in 2007; Todd Park began his career with BAH and now serves as the country's chief technology officer; James Woolsey, currently a senior vice president at BAH, served in the past as director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and so on.
BAH has had more than a little problem with self-dealing and conflicts of interest over the years. For instance in 2006 the European Commission asked the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Privacy International (PI) to investigate BAHs involvement with President George Bushs SWIFT surveillance program, which was viewed by that administration as just another tool in its so-called War on Terror. The only problem is that it was illegal, as it violated U.S., Belgian, and European privacy laws. BAH was right in the middle of it. According to the ACLU/PI report,
Though Booz Allens role is to verify that the access to the SWIFT data is not abused, its relationship with the U.S. Government calls its objectivity significantly into question. (Emphasis added.)
Among Booz Allens senior consulting staff are several former members of the intelligence community, including a former Director of the CIA and a former director of the NSA.
As noted by Barry Steinhardt, an ACLU director, Its bad enough that the [Bush] administration is trying to hold out a private company as a substitute for genuine checks and balances on its surveillance activities. But of all companies to perform audits on a secret surveillance program, it would be difficult to find one less objective and more intertwined with the U.S. government security establishment. (Emphasis added.)
CONTINUED w Links n Privatized INTEL...
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/15696-behind-the-curtain-booz-allen-hamilton-and-its-owner-the-carlyle-group
PS: Congratulations! Over 2,000 posts, already! And to think you did it in just 91 days. Awesome.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)BFEE???
Biggest CT nonsense EVER!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)How they connect to Carlyle, which is majority owner of Booz Allen Hamilton, multibillion dollar NSA prime contractor, the place for inside traders from banksters and narcotraffickers to warmongers and traitors:
The Knights of the Revolving Door
When War is Swell: the Carlyle Group and the Middle East at War
by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
CounterPunch, Weekend Edition September 6-8, 2013
Paris.
A couple of weeks ago, in a dress rehearsal for her next presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton, the doyenne of humanitarian interventionism, made a pit-stop at the Carlyle Group to brief former luminaries of the imperial war rooms about her shoot-first-dont-ask-questions foreign policy.
For those of you who have put the playbill of the Bush administration into a time capsule and buried it beneath the compost bin, the Carlyle Group is essentially a hedge fund for war-making and high tech espionage. They are the people who brought you the Iraq war and all those intrusive niceties of Homeland Security. Call them the Knights of the Revolving Door, many of Carlyles executives and investors having spent decades in the Pentagon, the CIA or the State Department, before cashing in for more lucrative careers as war profiteers. They are now licking their chops at the prospect for an all-out war against Syria, no doubt hoping that the conflagration will soon spread to Lebanon, Jordan and, the big prize, Iran.
For a refresher course on the sprawling tentacles of the Carlyle Group, heres an essay that first appeared in CounterPunchs print edition in 2004. Sadly, not much has changed in the intervening years, except these feted souls have gotten much, much richer. JSC
Across all fronts, Bushs war deteriorates with stunning rapidity. The death count of American soldiers killed in Iraq will soon top 1000, with no end in sight. The members of the handpicked Iraqi Governor Council are being knocked off one after another. Once loyal Shia clerics, like Ayatollah Sistani, are now telling the administration to pull out or face a nationalist insurgency. The trail of culpability for the abuse, torture and murder of Iraqi detainees seems to lead inexorably into the office of Donald Rumsfeld. The war for Iraqi oil has ended up driving the price of crude oil through the roof. Even Kurdish leaders, brutalized by the Baathists for decades, are now saying Iraq was a safer place under their nemesis Saddam Hussein. Like Medea whacking her own kids, the US turned on its own creation, Ahmed Chalabi, raiding his Baghdad compound and fingering him as an agent of the ayatollahs of Iran. And on and on it goes.
Still not all of the presidents men are in a despairing mood. Amid the wreckage, there remain opportunities for profit and plunder. Halliburton and Bechtels triumphs in Iraq have been chewed over for months. Less well chronicled is the profiteering of the Carlyle Group, a company with ties that extend directly into the Oval Office itself.
Even Pappy Bush stands in line to profit handsomely from his sons war making. The former president is on retainer with the Carlyle Group, the largest privately held defense contractor in the nation. Carlyle is run by Frank Carlucci, who served as the National Security advisor and Secretary of Defense under Ronald Reagan. Carlucci has his own embeds in the current Bush administration. At Princeton, his college roommate was Donald Rumsfeld. Theyve remained close friends and business associates ever since. When you have friends like this, you dont need to hire lobbyists..
Bush Sr. serves as a kind of global emissary for Carlyle. The ex-president doesnt negotiate arms deals; he simply opens the door for them, a kind of high level meet-and-greet. His special area of influence is the Middle East, primarily Saudi Arabia, where the Bush family has extensive business and political ties. According to an account in the Washington Post, Bush Sr. earns around $500,000 for each speech he makes on Carlyles behalf.
One of the Saudi investors lured to Carlyle by Bush was the BinLaden Group, the construction conglomerate owned by the family of Osama bin Laden. According to an investigation by the Wall Street Journal, Bush convinced Shafiq Bin Laden, Osamas half brother, to sink $2 million of BinLaden Group money into Carlyles accounts. In a pr move, the Carlyle group cut its ties to the BinLaden Group in October 2001.
CONTINUED...
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/09/06/when-war-is-swell-the-carlyle-group-and-the-middle-east-at-war/
Odd that you would not be interested in knowing more about the BFEE, the heart of darkness in America, the War Party. Then, again, that's what defenders of the NSA and its owners have in common.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Oh man, you crack me up with that stuff!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)That's the essence of fascism.
Details:
Know your BFEE: Nazis couldnt win WWII, so they backed Bushes.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Woo is not my style.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Feel free to ignore the facts.
Personally, I don't believe "Ignorance Is Strength."
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Here's something I know: The facts show the nation's mass media are manipulated by CIA. Here's how CIA got its media ducks in a row regarding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy:
CIA Document #1035-960, marked "PSYCH" for presumably Psychological Warfare Operations, in the division "CS", the Clandestine Services, sometimes known as the "dirty tricks" department.
CIA Instructions to Media Assets
RE: Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report
1. Our Concern. From the day of President Kennedy's assassination on, there has been speculation about the responsibility for his murder. Although this was stemmed for a time by the Warren Commission report, (which appeared at the end of September 1964), various writers have now had time to scan the Commission's published report and documents for new pretexts for questioning, and there has been a new wave of books and articles criticizing the Commission's findings. In most cases the critics have speculated as to the existence of some kind of conspiracy, and often they have implied that the Commission itself was involved. Presumably as a result of the increasing challenge to the Warren Commission's report, a public opinion poll recently indicated that 46% of the American public did not think that Oswald acted alone, while more than half of those polled thought that the Commission had left some questions unresolved. Doubtless polls abroad would show similar, or possibly more adverse results.
2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization. The members of the Warren Commission were naturally chosen for their integrity, experience and prominence. They represented both major parties, and they and their staff were deliberately drawn from all sections of the country. Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society. Moreover, there seems to be an increasing tendency to hint that President Johnson himself, as the one person who might be said to have benefited, was in some way responsible for the assassination. Innuendo of such seriousness affects not only the individual concerned, but also the whole reputation of the American government. Our organization itself is directly involved: among other facts, we contributed information to the investigation. Conspiracy theories have frequently thrown suspicion on our organization, for example by falsely alleging that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for us. The aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.
3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active addresses are requested:
a. To discuss the publicity problem with (?)and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.
b. To employ propaganda assets to and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (II) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein's theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane's book is much less convincing that Epstein's and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)
4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:
a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider. The assassination is sometimes compared (e.g., by Joachim Joesten and Bertrand Russell) with the Dreyfus case; however, unlike that case, the attack on the Warren Commission have produced no new evidence, no new culprits have been convincingly identified, and there is no agreement among the critics. (A better parallel, though an imperfect one, might be with the Reichstag fire of 1933, which some competent historians (Fritz Tobias, AJ.P. Taylor, D.C. Watt) now believe was set by Vander Lubbe on his own initiative, without acting for either Nazis or Communists; the Nazis tried to pin the blame on the Communists, but the latter have been more successful in convincing the world that the Nazis were to blame.)
b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent--and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) and less on ballistics, autopsy, and photographic evidence. A close examination of the Commission's records will usually show that the conflicting eyewitness accounts are quoted out of context, or were discarded by the Commission for good and sufficient reason.
c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc. Note that Robert Kennedy, Attorney General at the time and John F. Kennedy's brother, would be the last man to overlook or conceal any conspiracy. And as one reviewer pointed out, Congressman Gerald R. Ford would hardly have held his tongue for the sake of the Democratic administration, and Senator Russell would have had every political interest in exposing any misdeeds on the part of Chief Justice Warren. A conspirator moreover would hardly choose a location for a shooting where so much depended on conditions beyond his control: the route, the speed of the cars, the moving target, the risk that the assassin would be discovered. A group of wealthy conspirators could have arranged much more secure conditions.
d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other. Actually, the make-up of the Commission and its staff was an excellent safeguard against over-commitment to any one theory, or against the illicit transformation of probabilities into certainties.
e. Oswald would not have been any sensible person's choice for a co-conspirator. He was a "loner," mixed up, of questionable reliability and an unknown quantity to any professional intelligence service. (Archivist's note: This claim is demonstrably untrue with the latest file releases. The CIA had an operational interest in Oswald less than a month before the assassination. Source: Oswald and the CIA, John Newman and newly released files from the National Archives.)
f. As to charges that the Commission's report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.
g. Such vague accusations as that "more than ten people have died mysteriously" can always be explained in some natural way e.g.: the individuals concerned have for the most part died of natural causes; the Commission staff questioned 418 witnesses (the FBI interviewed far more people, conduction 25,000 interviews and re interviews), and in such a large group, a certain number of deaths are to be expected. (When Penn Jones, one of the originators of the "ten mysterious deaths" line, appeared on television, it emerged that two of the deaths on his list were from heart attacks, one from cancer, one was from a head-on collision on a bridge, and one occurred when a driver drifted into a bridge abutment.)
5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission's Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.
SOURCE: http://www.boston.com/community/forums/news/national/general/cia-instructions-to-media-assets-doc-1035-960/80/6210620
From 2003, first OP on DU I could find on it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x765619
That is very important, considering George H. W. Bush was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. Something else that is telling, Bush reported to the FBI he heard someone talk of killing President Kennedy, yet he waited to report it until after he was sure President Kennedy was deceased.
So, when you can't argue the facts, the instructions call for an attack on the messenger.
Hey! What a co-incidence.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)And that will be my response to you any time you post your CT ion response to a post of mine.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Uttered at a press conference in which not a single of the callow, cowed press corpse saw fit to ask a follow-up. Then the third generation warmonger laughs.
I remember Cindy Sheehan tried to bring it to our nation's attention.
You should learn: Smirko's Poppy told the FBI he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.
And at Gerald Ford's funeral, he actually laughed about it.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Drive your post count up?
If, OTOH, you were interested in learning about why having ownership in a company with business at NSA matters:
Know your BFEE: Spawn of Wall Street and the Third Reich
ETA: Link
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)What an odd attitude. Here's something people interested in how the BFEE operate, using their government power to enrich themselves and their cronies at the expense of the nation at large:
Know your BFEE: Siegelman Judge is a big-time War Profiteer
PS: I've noticed you have yet to refute anything I've posted. No wonder you have to resort to labels. Very telling.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)"A man who does not know the truth is just an idiot. But a man who knows the truth and calls it a lie is a crook!" -- Bertolt Brecht
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Incredibly juvenile...
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)he could simply stop spamming my posts with responses.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Besides, I am free to post anytime and anywhere I wish, about anything I wish, including the Bush Family Evil Empire, as long as it's within TOS. Which is why I am trying to help you learn about what Bartcop termed the BFEE, or what I also call the War Party.
Those who are interested in learning about the BFEE: They are the banksters and warmongers who, no matter how gross their treason and criminality, somehow avoid prosecution.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)questionseverything
(9,657 posts)William Binney is one of the highest-level whistleblowers to ever emerge from the NSA. He was a leading code-breaker against the Soviet Union during the Cold War but resigned soon after September 11, disgusted by Washingtons move towards mass surveillance.
On 5 July he spoke at a conference in London organised by the Centre for Investigative Journalism and revealed the extent of the surveillance programs unleashed by the Bush and Obama administrations.
At least 80% of fibre-optic cables globally go via the US, Binney said. This is no accident and allows the US to view all communication coming in. At least 80% of all audio calls, not just metadata, are recorded and stored in the US. The NSA lies about what it stores.
The NSA will soon be able to collect 966 exabytes a year, the total of internet traffic annually. Former Google head Eric Schmidt once argued that the entire amount of knowledge from the beginning of humankind until 2003 amount to only five exabytes.
Binney, who featured in a 2012 short film by Oscar-nominated US film-maker Laura Poitras, described a future where surveillance is ubiquitous and government intrusion unlimited.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....to display the truth for others who are not close-minded and willfully ignoring history.
G_j
(40,367 posts)gotta keep that post count up, I suppose..
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I read nothing he said.
elias49
(4,259 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Or business as usual, whichever you prefer.
Rex
(65,616 posts)It has me
Octafish, this is so sad watching the NSA apologists make fools of themselves. All have been totally destroyed in this thread to the tune of, "what evidence" when shown 100 links to actual sources...
Wow...just wow...
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)but a whole lot of others do! And we are so thankful for those efforts! Ignorance is not your friend MRT!
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Only the ignorant will continue reading what they write.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Few today remember a most heinous terrorist act: The assassinations of former Chilean ambassador Orlando Letelier and American Ronnie Karpen Moffit.
Ms. Moffit was an American citizen murdered by agents of a foreign government on U.S. soil. Her only crime was being with Orlando Letelier, whose crime was to speak out against the military coup that toppled the democratically elected Chilean government he served. Because he refused to turn over the Chilean secret police and their American contacts, these assassinations were allowed, if not sanctioned, by George Bush, then director of central intelligence and head of the CIA.
As with all things having to do with the BFEE, the world get worse. So, a reminder:
October will mark the 30th anniversary of another most heinous terrorist act: The bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner that killed 73 passengers and crew. The pilots reported the blast caused their aircraft to catch fire and they were burning up as they attempted an emergency landing. The plane crashed into the Caribbean, a few miles west of Barbados. All aboard perished, including a close friend of the Great DUer malaise.
Cubana Airlines DC-8 like the one bombed by BFEE members Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch. Both turds have been protected by Poppy and Baby Doc Bush and the CIA, which strangely has been loyal to them rather than to various presidencies before and in-between.
Heres an excellent essay based on the facts:
The Charmed Life of a Mass Murderer
Posada Carriles and Bush's Anti-Terror Hoax
By SAUL LANDAU
Counterpunch June 9, 2005
President George W. Bush has emphasized that if one of the myriad of U.S. police agencies even suspect someone of planning, abetting or carrying out a terrorist act, he will, at a minimum, get tossed into a dark hole. Indeed, Bush has thrown the Magna Carta into the garbage heap when it comes to Muslims suspected of pernicious thoughts toward the United States.
But if suspected terrorists turn their rage toward the detested Fidel Castro, these rules don't apply.
Indeed, those who try to bomb Cuban targets, or those related to Cuba, receive special treatment. This double-standard casts a shadow over the president's commitment to fight terrorism.
For example, TV footage showed Homeland Security cops arresting Posada in mid May. But the arresting officers didn't even handcuff the Western Hemisphere's most notorious terrorist. (Remember how Bush's pal Ken "Kenny Boy" Lay ENRON's CEO got handcuffed?) Justice Department spokespeople said they plan to charge the foremost terrorist in the western hemisphere with "illegal entry into the United States."
The FBI has reams of files on Posada, affectionately called "Bambi" by his terrorist friends. Former FBI Special Agent Carter Cornick told New York Times reporter Tim Weiner that Posada was "up to his eyeballs" in the October 1976 destruction of a Cuban commercial airliner over Barbados. All 73 passengers and crew members died. Recently published FBI and CIA documents not only confirm Cornick's statement, but also reveal that U.S. agencies had knowledge of the plot and did not inform Cuban authorities or try to stop the bombing.
SNIP
One wonders: Did Posada announce his illegal presence in the United States with the idea that U.S. government complicity in aiding and abetting his past acts of terrorism would protect him? U.S. authorities didn't inform Cuba or try to stop the 1976 air-bombing plot, and in 1971, as Veciana stated, the CIA made the gun that Posada's agents placed inside the camera to assassinate Castro. And Ollie North has knowledge of Posada's covert activities for U.S. intelligence as well.
CONTINUED
http://www.counterpunch.org/landau06092005.html
[font color="red"]What ties these two events together is the involvement of George Herbert Walker Bush, as then-CIA director, in their cover-up as crimes and in the protection of their perpetrators, as in the person of one Luis Posada Carriles, Orlando Bosch and their colleagues-in-terror.[/font color]
Think about it: A murder-forgiving CIA director Bush went on to become President of the United States. Today, Bushs son, George, acts as president. The younger Bush has used his office from Day One to protect and cover-up the crimes of his father.
Thats what Hugo Chavez was talking about when he smelled the sulfur and called Bush The Devil.
America needs to wake up and smell the sulfur, too. Heres some background on the above:
LUIS POSADA CARRILES
THE DECLASSIFIED RECORD
CIA and FBI Documents Detail Career in International Terrorism; Connection to U.S.
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 153
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153 /
Dont forget to check out Orlando Bosch, while youre at it. GOOGLE with Jeb Bush for some interesting connections to the present day.
Democracy Nows Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzalez interviewed National Security Archives Peter Kornbluh and Leteliers son, Francisco:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/21/153...
Another important point to remember, is Kissinger's close association with Operation CONDOR, the assassination program run out of "The Cone" to silence democrats, liberals, union leaders, progressives, socialists, communists or anyone who stood for justice and equality.
Chile security chief was CIA informer
BBC Tuesday, 19 September, 2000, 23:24 GMT 00:24 UK
Recently declassified documents in the United States show that the former head of the secret police in Chile, Manuel Contreras, was a paid informant for the US intelligence agency, the CIA.
The report, comprising CIA documents requested by the US Congress, show that contact with Contreras began in 1974 - a year after the military coup that brought General Augusto Pinochet to power.
Contreras oversaw the much-feared security service DINA
The report adds that the contact was maintained until 1977 - a year after Contreras plotted the killing of the then Chilean Foreign Minister and foe of General Pinochet, Orlando Letelier, in Washington.
A BBC correspondent in Washington, Nick Bryant, says the documents reinforce the view that the US turned a blind eye towards political repression in Chile during the Pinochet era and that the CIA was complicit in many human rights abuses.
Pinochet's confidant
As head of the security service, DINA, Contreras became the one of the most feared men in Chile, second only to General Pinochet.
The general's iron rule was underpinned by the tactics of brutal repression that saw thousands die and thousands more flee into exile. Others disappeared or were tortured.
CONTINUED
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/932897.stm
Of course, there are even more sulferous friends than these
Bush's Longstanding Criminal Mexican Amigos
The disturbing ties of some of George W. Bush's Latino advisors
More on Bush-Amigos links in PBS Frontline interview with Gary Jacobs
By Julie Reynolds
Research assistance by Victor Almazán and Ana Leonor Rojo
LOS AMIGOS DE BUSH
Dime con quién andas y te diré quién eres. (Tell me who you side with and I will tell you who you are.) George W. Bush for President web site
Those who say that George W. Bush has scant knowledge of foreign affairs don't understand his family's relationship with Mexico.
If one event could be said to make that relationship visible, it had to be the state dinner given eleven years ago by President Bush for Mexico's president, Carlos Salinas. It was an elegant yet boisterous gala, where the biggest movers and shakers in Texas and Mexico congregated and celebrated. This group was to become W's Mexican legacy, a gift of ties and connections passed on from the father to his son.
SNIP
The Mexican president had spent a long day with President Bush signing trade pacts, the precursors of NAFTA. Salinas brought his so-called Dream Team: his commerce secretary, finance minister, and his personal Machiavelli, Jose Córdoba. It would later be astounding to see, as the decade unfolded, how many of that administration's proud men and women fell shamefully from grace - some exiled, some imprisoned and some assassinated.
No one knew it then, but many at that banquet would survive to one day help young W beat a path back to the White House. There were loyal "Bushfellas" who were old friends of the family: Commerce Secretary Robert Mosbacher Sr., General Colin Powell, and George Bush Senior's ever-present friend, Secretary of State James Baker. Gary Jacobs, whose Texas bank was about to be bought by the son of Mexico's billionaire-politico Carlos Hank González, was also a guest. Tony Garza, then a young judge, is now a Bush cabinet contender. Today, all are advisors or contributors to W's campaign.
Hidden among the glitterati were two relative unknowns. They were, however, familiar to the group at hand. They were the loyal "Amigos de Bush" from San Antonio: criminal defense lawyer Roy Barrera Jr. and car dealer Ernesto Ancira Jr. In contrast to the Salinas group, the ties of Barrera and Ancira to drug cartels would remain unnoticed for another decade. Their ties to George W. would grow stronger.
CONTINUED
http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html
Henry Kissinger and Agusto Pinochet
I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves. -- Henry A. Kissinger
Remember: If the guy W wanted to appoint head of the 9-11 Commission feels that way about democracy in Chile, whats there to make us think he and those for whom he toils believe differently about democracy in the United States of America?
PS: Does the fact you have to read the words on the title disqualify hypocrisy?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Despite your full-throated support of the Bush Administration, we've hated that piece of worthless dogshit since 2001 in these pages. That's why the site was started, for what it's worth. His dad was the President. His brother was the governor of Florida. Another brother was in bank fraud, and yet another brother is in education fraud. We've all colloquially referred to the Bush family as the Bush Family Evil Empire (or BFEE for short) for a long damned time now. And we do that because they're a family that runs several criminal enterprises. That's NOT a conspiracy, and it's not up for review from a new poster. Read what you want to read; don't read what you don't want to read. But don't try to rehabilitate that fuckstain of a family in order to castigate a valuable member of the DU community.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I have never, nor will I ever, support the Bush Administrations (either of them)
I reject the notion of some "BFEE" conspiracy organization. That is pure CT poppycock and I dismiss it every bit as much as I dismiss JFK assassination CT, moon landing denials, and Area 51 Space Alien nonsense.
So please, stop making claims that I "full-throated support of the Bush Administration" when I have never done any such thing.
I await your apology
reddread
(6,896 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)That is a falsehood.
reddread
(6,896 posts)your actions speak for themselves.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Just like assholes, everybody has one.
reddread
(6,896 posts)you wish to spam the ignore response to informed posters here.
you will receive the same minus spam shortly enough.
Ignorant opinions are of limited value.
Information is valuable, especially if accurate and relevant, and you wish to change a bad situation to better.
and finally, and I do mean finally,
you know who else was a CT name caller?
check the signatures on my carrying card
best of luck with the next poster who will help you pass your wasted time.
Im taking out the trash.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I disagree with the Bush family politically, but you will never ever convince me of the absurd claim that George W. Bush had anything to do with the JFK assasination.
The "BFEE" bullshit is no different than the "CCF" bullshit the right spewed from the moment that Clinton took office.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)He probably pulled the trigger.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Nearly half the voters, the American people, voted that dunce into the presidency.
librechik
(30,676 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Clinton Crime Family.
CT bullshit from the far right.
I listened to and fought against that bullshit for the past two decades.
It sickens me to see the same bullshit being spewed in the opposite direction.
There is no body count for either the Clintons or the Bushes.
Clinton did not murder Vince Foster.
George W. Bush did not direct the assassination of JFK.
librechik
(30,676 posts)sometimes more pernicious than CT. You seem to be trapped inside that box.
Oh, and it's almost as bad as CC--congenital certainty
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The claim that George W. Bush was involved in the JFK assassination is beyond extraordinary.
librechik
(30,676 posts)and I know polls say more than 60 per cent of Americans believe there was a conspiracy, not to mention the 1993 congressional investigation which concurred. I'm sure you have some orthodoxy which claims that is wrong, but as I said, I don't accept your authority over the facts of the JFK assassination.
like I said, congenital certainty is evidence of lack of curiosity. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I'M STILL CURIOUS.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)librechik
(30,676 posts)bloviator.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)When you appeal to the popularity of a position as to why that postion is true and accurate, you have committed the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.
librechik
(30,676 posts)others can observe it. It would take an actually sensitive and self aware person to see it in himself.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)you still committed the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....in the JFK assassination. What a silly assertion!! Never heard such a thing.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....between George W. Bush and George H.W. Bush?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Claims that the ELDER Bush had anything at all to do with the assassination of JFK are beyiond the pale into the most ridiculous CT idiocy possible.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)You might as well be beating a rock on a stone here in DU. It's really futile to play defense for a rogue surveillance state.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)had anything to do with Hitler's rise. And Smedley Butler made it all up right?
Ignorance is bliss to some I guess.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)IBM had a big input there, too.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)because others may have did it. got it.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Oh.
You're trying to put words in my mouth.
I get it.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)In that letter, he asked whether an Executive Order takes precedence over the law itself.
And it was dismissed as "a training matter."
MADem
(135,425 posts)SNOWDEN himself said "I took this mandatory training course and I have questions about these things that were taught in the training I received, can you clarify it for me?"
The counsel's office clarified it for him--it was an "order of precedence" question and nothing more.
It should be dismissed as a "training matter" because that is all it was.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Your characterization is old, and useless.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And they are facts, not characterizations.
You're the one who isn't up to speed.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)No screaming, no petulance. Just rebuttal.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You haven't proven your point. And you can't, because some facts are just that--facts.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... never cited that letter as being the smoking gun he was referencing. After its release, he referred to "other emails" as being those in which he raised his concerns to his superiors.
The man himself (who, one would assume, knows more about this than you do) never pointed to that particular email as being "proof" of his alleged attempts to raise red flags, as opposed to being a simple request for clarification on training materials.
If it WAS proof of his having raised those red flags, why has he himself not said so?
MADem
(135,425 posts)That is a difficult hurdle to get over, now, isn't it!
Here's a source detailing the whole business that should be acceptable to the fans of Snowden:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/nsa-snowden-email
Time sure flies--it's been nearly two months now; surely Snowden has had time to find the thumb drive containing those documents he said he exchanged with the Signals Intelligence Directorates Office of Compliance ...and you'd think, anyone asking for documents, would ask for those documents, from that office, specifically, instead of playing the "fishing expedition" game of "give me everything you've got!!!" Particularly since the person claiming to have written the emails has let everyone know precisely to where he addressed them!
Of course, he'd still need to authorize release. He probably needs to execute that document on video, so that there can be no question that he's waiving his privacy act rights. He hasn't done that either.
I remember when Linda Tripp got bullshit that HER personal files were released to a third party, and thence to the public--she's probably still living off the settlement she got for that violation of her privacy. It was a huge sum, as I recall, over a half million. She got a facelift to great fanfare, and then retreated with her new husband to a shopkeeper's life (it's Xmas every day for Linda, they run a German Xmas store) in Louden County, Virginia. Since then, the government has gotten much more careful about releasing any personal information without clear authority to so do.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Making a blanket request for "everything you've got" was 100% certain to receive a blanket refusal. And it seems that a refusal was what was wanted here, so that cries of "they have the emails I claim to have sent, and they are refusing to produce them!" could be spun to Eddie's advantage.
Still amazed that Snowden - who at first denied having gone through 'proper channels' - didn't think to secure the CYA emails that he now claims he sent.
frylock
(34,825 posts)you know, the emails that never existed that are now too sensitive to release.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Isn't the internet recording of history grand?
On edit....... Nixon was the first to use the word fishing expedition on the national stage during watergate.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)How screwed up is that?
The Desk requested ALL emails to ANY NSA official (that would be anybody employed by the NSA) during the time period).
How would they be lying their asses off about Snowden's emails to NSA attorneys when they refuse to release EVERY LAST EMAIL HE EVER WROTE DURING THE TIME PERIOD?????
That was the request made. It had nothing to do with Snowden's claims about emails to attornies questioning the surveillance practices.
Sheesh! when an article is posted, people should actually read the damned thing.
frylock
(34,825 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Please, read posted articles before formulating conclusions. you can keep from being embarrassed if you do.
frylock
(34,825 posts)After extensive investigation, including interviews with his former NSA supervisors and co-workers, we have not found any evidence to support Mr. Snowdens contention that he brought these matters to anyones attention, an agency official told Gellman.
But the NSA walked back this claim after an NBC News broadcast in May in which Snowden asserted the agency had e-mail records in which he repeatedly raised concerns about secret spy programs. Shortly after the interview was broadcast, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence de-classified one e-mail record in which Snowden writes to a superior with a question about legal authorities.
concrete evidence that the NSA lied. they lied to you. I know how very difficult that must be for you to accept.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)They found an email to the office of general counsel with a question about training he had received, not an email to general counsel about issues he had with NSA surveillance techniques.
But you just go ahead and convince yourself otherwise. Most people formulate conclusions, then reject any evidence to the contrary.
frylock
(34,825 posts)please do share with the group.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He cannot, ergo, they do not exist.
frylock
(34,825 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Snowden's inability to present the emails does not prove they don't exist.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Up thread, you accused a Snowden of lying in vehement and certain terms. Now you're slipping. Not surprising, since your argument is incoherent, but don't think the walkback isn't obvious. It is. The NSA are confirmed liars, and there's nothing you can say that will change that oft-verified FACT.
its stuff like this that keeps certain comical sorts off of the ignore list.
thanks for turning a joke into a better joke!
leftstreet
(36,111 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)So, again. Snowden must produce the emails he claims exists.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You asserted that they wouldn't find any. Now they are classified.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)What are classified are his internal emails to all NSA officials. That was what the FOIA request was for. Not anything specifically backing up Snowden's claims, ALL of his emails.
Nobody ever claimed Snowden never wrote any emails at all while employed as a contractor for the NSA.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... is already off to a ho-hum start.
The pilot episode for Season 2, "Greenwald is naming NAMES!", was met with little interest, even from die-hard fans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025215632
A follow-up trailer promising even more astounding revelations in upcoming episodes, "Greenwald: MORE to come!!!", also received a lackluster response from the show's usual followers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025217457
I understand Snowden is still in the running for an Emmy, however, for his riveting portrayal of a man smart enough to steal thousands of classified documents, while forgetting to retain his own CYA emails. Whether Snowden's performance will be included in the drama or sit-com category has yet to be determined.
treestar
(82,383 posts)with the exciting episode tantalizingly promised - just more mundane drama.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)It's always "next week's episode" that will shock your senses, rock your world, and cause you to question everything you once held as true - and that's just the trailer for Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Or the long running Birther crap that still hasn't gone off the air.
questionseverything
(9,657 posts)William Binney is one of the highest-level whistleblowers to ever emerge from the NSA. He was a leading code-breaker against the Soviet Union during the Cold War but resigned soon after September 11, disgusted by Washingtons move towards mass surveillance.
On 5 July he spoke at a conference in London organised by the Centre for Investigative Journalism and revealed the extent of the surveillance programs unleashed by the Bush and Obama administrations.
At least 80% of fibre-optic cables globally go via the US, Binney said. This is no accident and allows the US to view all communication coming in. At least 80% of all audio calls, not just metadata, are recorded and stored in the US. The NSA lies about what it stores.
The NSA will soon be able to collect 966 exabytes a year, the total of internet traffic annually. Former Google head Eric Schmidt once argued that the entire amount of knowledge from the beginning of humankind until 2003 amount to only five exabytes.
Binney, who featured in a 2012 short film by Oscar-nominated US film-maker Laura Poitras, described a future where surveillance is ubiquitous and government intrusion unlimited.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)No surprise there. Their ability to believe the NSA after all the lies it has made is laughable.
NSA won't release the emails they have for all to see. They give the standard security state evasion as an excuse. But the groupies are still all in.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)They are trying to squelch any questions and pound any opposition to the ground to make you buy the line. I will never trust that.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)The strain of it all must be getting to them.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Defending the indefensible. Accentuating the positive. Eliminating the negative.
P.R. work is harrrd!
(And futile here, as well)
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Of course, he cannot do that if he never wrote what he claims he wrote.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This guy stole THOUSANDS of documents, and he didn't think to dump his frigging emails on a thumb drive?
His IMPORTANT emails, that PROVE that he's a knight in shining armor, that will put to rest any accusations that he's a double agent, turned by Putin's crew when he worked for Dell in Japan and visited Hong Kong?
Who wouldn't take the PROOF that they'd complained and gotten the hand?
It's just not believable that he would leave those key bits of information behind, and take all kinds of shit, including stupid little Welcome Aboard Power Point Presentations.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)aggiesal
(8,923 posts)Law enforcement would be embarrassed.
[Font color=Red]... could cause an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy ...[/font]
Law enforcement would be embarrassed
[Font color=Red]... could reveal the identities of confidential sources ...[/font]
Law enforcement would be embarrassed
[Font color=Red]... would reveal law enforcement techniques and procedures ...[/font]
Law enforcement would be embarrassed
KoKo
(84,711 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Then NSA can issue (redacted, if necessary) copies of these letters.
I still do not understand why he didn't take copies of his dramatic emails. It's just a "too clever by half" ploy. He and the NSA are picking at each other like children in the playground. If he'd just taken his emails with him, and put them out there for all to see, like he's done with so many other documents, we wouldn't be going through all this foolishness.
Who in their right mind doesn't take with them the few important documents that might exonerate them?
Makes no sense.
Now, if the emails talk about things like taking leave for medical reasons, or personal psychiatric issues, or other things protected by the privacy act, the agency IS constrained from releasing those. Snowden can demand copies and release them himself, if he'd like. If they say things like "I am working on (REDACTED TOP SECRET PROGRAM) but I need leave to deal with my (REDACTED MEDICAL ISSUE) you're going to see some parts blotted out. And those can't be released to anyone but Snowden because they deal with personnel issues.
Bottom line is this:
Though the request did not specify records related to Snowdens claim that he raised concerns about the legality clandestine NSA surveillance programs, Phillips wrote that there are no e-mails indicating that Mr. Snowden contacted agency officials to raise concerns about NSA programs.
So, we might not learn about his leave requests, his medical problems, his personnel issues, his disagreements with his bosses, his complaints to the personnel office, his allegation of workplace harassment, his complaint that he was unfairly denied a raise, to include complaints to legal agencies within the agency, any of that stuff...but NSA is still saying there are no e-mails indicating that Mr. Snowden contacted agency officials to raise concerns about NSA programs.
I don't think anything has been proven here at all. We're still at the same place we were a month or six ago.
Snowden needs to produce his emails. It's put up or shut up time. He wrote them, he should have kept copies--he sure as hell kept copies of everything else; now it's just a foolish "Waaah waaah, I know what I am, but what are you?" game.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... as opposed to the speculation favoured by the Snowden fans.
How could anyone believe that any employee would never have sent ANY emails during the course of their employment? Surely there would be many just dealing with mundane matters, such as vacation scheduling, the timing of upcoming meetings, etc.
And yet there seem to be some here who honestly believe that the NSA confirmed that they did not receive a SINGLE email from Snowden - ever.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)So there is that, too.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)ever sent is shielded from disclosure under the request.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... for ALL emails to be turned over. Not specific to any topic, but ALL emails.
That means that any emails that contain classified information would be included in ALL, along with mundane, non-sensitive communications.
Blanket, all-encompassing requests like these are always denied. It's an all-or-nothing proposition. The NSA could either say yes to ALL, or no to ALL. It is not up to them to pick and choose which emails to disclose from the ALL category; it is up to the entity requesting the emails to be specific as to what they want turned over to them, and the reasons supporting those specific requests.
JI7
(89,262 posts)there was a thread a few days ago about how Snowden COULDN'T come forward because "fill in whatever that reason was".
i don't get it but i guess if one has become so invested in someone/something they WANT to believe anything. especially when there hasn't been anything so far.
meanwhile Snowden's stay in Russia has been extended because the RUssian authorities claim his life is in danger and he will continue to be the propaganda tool for Putin.
Cha
(297,574 posts)http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-09/edward-snowden-applies-to-extend-russia-stay/5586146
MADem
(135,425 posts)I suspect his accommodations are "free"--as he's a great propaganda tool. I doubt he's "free" to move about without surveillance.
One has to wonder if he's going through the "Kim Philby" experience. I doubt they made Snowden a colonel in the KGB/FSB either.
Cha
(297,574 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Because he won the battle there, but he lost the war: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140709/PC1002/140709439/1022/putin-overplays-his-hand
I guess Snowden is easier to control than the Russian people, who are none too happy at being taxed up the wazoo to support Putin's folly! http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/07/08/world/crimea-euphoria-fading-russians/#.U8LS7_ldWSo
ES is about the only "good news" story he's got going, lately...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)sensitive and turn over the rest. That is how these requests are routinely handled. They turn over the material and the mundane. Anything classified gets redacted or documented why it can't be released.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... can be redacted for legitimate reasons, e.g. confidential information, classified information, etc.
But this was not a request for specific documents - it was a blanket request for ALL documents. The NSA has a right to say, "You asked for every email, and our answer to handing over every email is NO."
Whoever framed that blanket request cast their net waaaay too wide - and unless they are incredibly naive, they knew such an all-encompassing request would be denied immediately.
I suspect that's why the request was framed so broadly - so that a refusal was sure to be the response. That's so the NSA's refusal can now been spun into "they're hiding something".
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There is nothing wrong with blanket requests, they are routine. And agencies routinely redact the portions that need to be.
It is the NSA who has decided to blanket deny. There is no law or rule that requires that. If you have a cite to regs that suggest otherwise, I would be happy to read it.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)No one said that the NSA is required by law to issue a blanket denial. They are also not required to sift through all of Snowden's emails and redact information.
We'll see if there is a follow-up request that is more narrowly defined, e.g. "We request disclosure of Snowden emails to/from the following people, touching on the matters of A, B and C, sent on or around the following dates ...", et cetera.
I doubt there will be such a request, because it is in Snowden's best interest to get a blanket denial that can then be spun into "they're hiding something, and that's why they won't comply."
So, we shall wait and see ...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)and produce that which is not classified. This was not an overly broad request. It was for Snowden's emails.
The request was a limited as it should have been. Hopefully NSA will produce or eventually be ordered to.
I'll look through the FOIA law later, when it have time to get a more definitive answer. The government agency, though, is not permitted to give a blanket denial to a request because *some* of it may be classified. That just isn't how the law works.
Eta: breadth or lack of specificity is not the grounds on which the NSA is denying the request. The only requirement in making a FOIA request is that the information be identifiable. That has been done.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)The request was for ALL emails; they said no to ALL emails.
Now it is up to the entity requesting the emails to narrow their request, and try again.
Quite frankly, I don't know why this is even being discussed. Let's be honest here. If the NSA provided all of Snowden's emails with the appropriate redactions, Snowden (and his supporters) would insist that the blacked-out portions are the portions that contain Snowden's "raising his concerns" with his superiors.
It's a smart move on Eddie's part to challenge the NSA to produce emails he knows they will either (a) refuse to produce, or (b) will be heavily redacted if produced. Either way, he can claim that the NSA is "hiding" the very communications that support his claim of having "gone through proper channels".
Did Snowden not repeatedly respond to queries as to why he didn't "go through proper channels" by saying he thought it would be futile to do so? It was only a few months ago that he started claiming that he DID raise his concerns with the appropriate people.
That brings us full circle to the burning question: If Snowden sent such emails, why did he not retain copies of them? He certainly KNEW that if any such CYA emails were sent, his being able to produce them himself after-the-fact would serve as incontrovertible proof that he had done so.
Smart enough to steal thousands of classified documents, but not smart enough to have retained the very documents that he now claims would prove he had raised his concerns and was ignored or rebuffed? Who's zoomin' who?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)It doesn't matter at what Snowden claims to have done, whether he retained copies or why he didn't. The FOIA request was proper and the NSA is refusing on privacy and security grounds. That surely doesn't apply to "any and all." Which brings us full circle to the post on yours I initially response to.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)The request was for ALL Snowden emails. The NSA's refusal was to produce ALL Snowden emails. They didn't frame the request; the entity who made the request did - and did so very poorly.
"It doesn't matter at what Snowden claims to have done, whether he retained copies or why he didn't."
No, actually it DOES matter. This seems to be a pat response from Snowden fans of late: "It doesn't matter if ..."
No one in their right mind who is making a serious request for documents would make a broad request like "all emails" - especially to an agency that handles classified information, and must be extremely cautious as to what they release.
The entity framing the request - unless they are incredibly stupid - would KNOW that a blanket request like "all Snowden emails" would be refused. And as I have said, I think the "refusal" was what they were looking for - so as to use that refusal to claim that the NSA is hiding something that Snowden now claims to be there.
So be honest: If the NSA produced Snowden emails that were heavily redacted - as, of course, they would have to be - would you not be jumping up and down claiming that the redacted portions contained the proof of Snowden's claims, and had been expunged for that very reason?
We both know you would. There is no way on earth the Snowden fans would look at heavily redacted emails and say, "Well, there's no evidence here that Eddie raised his concerns with his superiors, as he claims. I guess he was lying about that all along."
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 12, 2014, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)
NSA's refusal was to produce any, other than the one produced in their denial.
"Any and all" is the standard request construction. The request was made perfectly well. There was no ambiguity in what was being asked for, there was no record that had to be created, simply a printout of the emails. However, the NSA refused to produce the number of documents, the itemized bases for denial or to just produce the redacted docs, as required by law.
By the way, this wasn't a blanket request. It was limited to any and all Snowden emails, and it was totally proper. It was exactly as it should have been worded.
As for guessing what I would or would not being doing under a hypothetical, please don't. You don't know me, thank you very much. I am no Snowden fan. I am glad he released the docs he did, I have no opinion on him or his motives. I simply could care less. If the NSA released the redacted docs, assuming it wasn't 80 pages of black box, I would read what was there and naturally be curious about what was redacted. But I would not assume that because it was redacted it must be the very piece that exonerates Snowden.
I do, however, have great concerns with the NSA, its programs and obfuscations. Especially after Clapper's perjury.
I don't care if Snowden actually took it up the ladder. I really don't. I support the release regardless of what preceded the release. Again, my issue is with a government agency not respecting the law, in this case FOIA.
It is worth noting that this FOIA request was not from Snowden. If I were Snowden and were planning on mounting a defense, of course, I would have retained my emails. We don't know if he did or not, but I think it is clear that he is not the most forward-thinking actor.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)The request did in fact say "any and all". I was remiss in not scrutinizing the FOIA request on my own, and instead relied on other posters' reiteration thereof - including yours. You didn't raise the "any and all" inclusion until now. It looks like we were both guilty of not doing our homework sooner - but I still admit to being wrong, and apologize for being so.
You may not be prone to claiming that redacted emails would be decried as hiding the evidence of Snowden's claims that he raised his concerns with superiors. But most Snowden fans would - and will, if redacted emails are eventually produced.
I knew the FOIA was not from Snowden - that's why I referred to the "entity" that made the request.
"I don't care if Snowden actually took it up the ladder." I do - only because if he is lying about doing so, it goes directly to his credibility as a truth-teller in all other contexts.
I've yet to see anything from Snowden that was not known before - with the glaring exception of the Chinese now knowing what they didn't know before, i.e. details of how we spy on them. To say the least, that doesn't seem to be in keeping with Snowden's oft-declared goal of informing his fellow Americans about domestic spying.
I do sincerely apologize for categorizing you as one of the crazed Snowdenistas, and responding to you as such. Your latest reply (above) has made it clear that you are a citizen with concerns about the NSA that do not hinge on what one man has said, done, or claimed.
I guess I am just used to dealing with posters here who constantly insist "it's not about Snowden", who then go on a rampage when Snowden (ya know, the guy who it's not all about) has his credibility questioned, or his lies, contradictions, or unproven claims brought into the discussion.
We may not agree on Snowden's revelations being new, or the NSA's refusal to produce his emails as being legitimate or not. In fact, we may not agree on a lot of things to do with this entire affair. But I appreciate your civility, and your having now expressed your views so clearly and succinctly.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)It really is that simple.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If that's the case, then he wouldn't be doing "pedestrian" work that was assembly-line in process.
If he was an actual, real-life, "spy"--even if he did his work in cyber space, there'd be no problem in getting clarity from a legal authority about what he could or couldn't do.
Thing is, there's none of that, according to this latest release. There's privacy act (personal/personnel) stuff, not any "concerns" raising.
It makes no sense.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)now that the NSA has blundered again and ruled them classified. THEY look like they have something to hide (which we already know they do) and he'll release them.
I'll be fascinated on the squirming that will happen then by the NSA aggrandizers.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If he has to play games to keep the attention on himself, he's got a problem with messaging.
Again, the NSA is saying that anything they have is covered by the privacy act (personal information, like the shakeout of his legal complaint against the sexual harasser in the office or the request for leave due to a boil on the butt, or something--those are hypotheticals for purposes of illustration only) \but everything in their possession has nothing to do with any 'concerns' raised.
If that is not true, now's the time for ES to release those emails.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)the story in the news? How many high level officials have commented?
Whether you agree wth his actions or not, you can't deny that he and Greenwald have been effective at keeping the story going.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They're trying to accuse people of being silent because they didn't jump on this thread with sufficient swiftness or vigor, or falsely suggesting that they'll spend their time making fun of his girlfriend or his boxes.
As for "high level officials" I'm not seeing a lot of chit-chat about the guy. The only time "high level officials" have anything to say about him is when some reporter asks. The reporters aren't asking about him much, lately. He's not a target with constant bearing/decreasing range anymore. He's almost over the horizon and steaming off into the distance.
I don't think he's doing a good job (and his "supporters" aren't helping, frankly). The more he plays these silly "Rubber Glue" games, and the "Oooooh, just you WAIT for the NEXT installment!!" teases, the more unserious he looks.
What was the reaction to his request to remain a "guest of Vlad" for another year? Ho hum. That's nice, how unsurprising.
Obviously, YMMV and that's just fine, but I am just not seeing any excitement or "devastating" revelations. It's SSDD--like watching a dog doing the hula hoop. The first dozen or so times it's fascinating, but after a while, it's "Oh well, yeah, there's Spot doing the hula hoop again."
His story has only been "in the news" for people who really want to dig for it. It's just not floated to the top of the bowl, not even during the lazy, hazy, crazy days of summer, when the news cycle slows down.
He's the Kim Philby of the 21st Century. Big splash, soon forgotten.
I think he made an error in judgment, but it's too late, baby for him, and he knows it. I hope he's working hard on learning Russian--it's a hard, hard language, and that will surely keep him busy. Since he is, as he said, an "indoor cat," he can live just as easily there as anywhere, so long as Vlad gives him a nice crib and a good internet connection.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I know many would like for everyone to shut up and stop talking about this, but it isn't going to happen. This isn't about Snowden - it's about the NSA lying their asses off and repeatedly getting caught in lies.
Every time they lie, another part of their credibility crumbles. Honestly, the credibility of their supporters takes a hit, too, because it becomes blatantly obvious that no matter what lie the NSA tells, they are going stand by the agency and defend it. It tends to make people wonder at what point the NSA can do something egregious enough that the defenders won't step in.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If you said that you had exchanged "national security" emails with a government agency, and the only emails they had on file were your personnel emails, medical leave emails, disciplinary emails, and they refused to release those, I wouldn't say they were "lying" when they didn't acknowledge their content. I'd say they were protecting your privacy.
They have said, repeatedly, that he did NOT raise national security concerns in any emails. Asking for clarification of a definition following a training class is not raising concerns--even he said as much.
This is about Snowden, in that, if he wants to be believed, he has to cough up some proof of his claims. Surely, a guy who is "smart" enough to steal all those goodies over a period of many months is "smart enough" to take the few bits of proof that could exonerate him?
Why doesn't he just DO it? Release the kraken, now--he keeps playing games, it's PAST time for the Big Gotcha--so why hasn't he played his "Ah HA!!" card? Maybe those emails are all in his head, and were never put in writing?
As I said, Linda Tripp got six hundred thousand bucks because someone who wasn't authorized had a peek at her personnel file. He wants to let it all hang out, he needs to issue a release, and then we'll be able to see EVERYTHING he has written. Let's do! If he doesn't want it all hanging out, he needs to release the stuff himself. It's put up or shut up time.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)you didn't want to hear it.
I'm done with the sniping and name-calling that is done in these threads. We are both Democrats, but we do not see eye to eye on this. Accept it. I won't accept your point of view, you won't accept mine. But I'm not going to battle it out with you or anyone else on this, because it isn't necessary.
History will decide.
But I won't stop discussing it with like minded people, so I hope you accept that, too.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Unless you are named Snowden and posting from your Moscow apartment, you don't know what "the truth" is any more than the rest of us do.
History will decide--that is the only "truth" here and one on which we can certainly agree. The facts will out, eventually. I say let the chips fall where they may.
Snowden could help by releasing the emails that all his fans insist he has, that he's waiting for an "opportune" moment to reveal. The longer he waits, though, the more he sounds like an attention seeker who gilds the lily at a minimum, and who fibs at worst.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)with a reply. I'm simply going to say, as I said before, history will be the judge. Like it, hate it, hell - hate me for pointing it out, it doesn't matter.
MADem
(135,425 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)He's in the catbird seat. There is nothing they can do to him that will stop the momentum he began. If they assassinate him, he's a martyr and his dead man files will be released.
Aside from a false flag operation to start a war of distraction, the NSA has nothing to stop this juggernaut.
And he knew this from the beginning and apparently is at peace with it all.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)That's what frustrates the hell out of the defenders, because they KNOW he's playing the NSA, too.
That's at the root of all of these demands to release everything he has. If he did, then they would criticize him for releasing everything. The bottom line is they don't want anyone to be having this conversation whatsoever.
The hits just keep on coming and everyone is still having the conversation and it infuriates them.
Futile work is tough.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)There's no penetrating their walls.
Historic NY
(37,452 posts)he can't produce or prove it like-wise either can he.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and will have a meeting at 7am sharp and be prepared with new things to tell us about how despicable Snowden is, how horrible Greenwald is, and will pretend that the NSA isn't overstepping because of x number of reasons that we've heard for a year, including "but this isn't anything new".
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
grasswire
(50,130 posts)...because no minds are being changed by the attacks on Edward Snowden here. There simply is no use to their efforts. Sound and fury, signifying nothing. Nothing.
Disrupt, they do. Influence anyone, they don't.
It must be terribly frustrating to know that Snowden has already achieved his goal of starting a national conversation, and it must be terribly frustrating to know that the U.S. government has no leverage over him and cannot stop what he began.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The wall-to-wall NSA spying demonstrates the national security state regards We the People as enemies.
Which is a shame, really, as We the People used to be the government.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Isn't that the point?
Besides, those emails don't exist (or to say it another, more accurate way, if they DID exist, they're not going to tell you about it)
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)"Seeing as this would be petabytes of data every month, it should be easy enough to find out if the NSA is purchasing enough storage to accomplish something like this. Where's the proof of that?"
Very interesting replies. I know this a bit off topic to this thread, but seeing as how related threads have been coming and going, I figured I could post it here, or post in a new thread, or post it in a thread I started a few days back. I figure posting here best serves the community.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Acquisitions are classified. Sure, people know, but they will get fired if they confirm it. But yes, EMC is highly probably since they use extended fibre channel and sophisticated arrays that have redundant implanted hardware that never goes down (because it fails over to other locations). They also do synchronous backups using a data pattern that is highly efficient and difficult to interrupt to different locations. Fail over is fairly seamless. The fire in the office or water damage horse shit fools no one in IT, nor does the "we had a crash and lost an email server and didn't notice" idiocy either.
That bullshit went out in the horse and buggy days and anyone that tells you anything different is attempting to sell you a big pile of horse shit.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I have no doubts about that.
reddread
(6,896 posts)but the notion that absolute memory requirements are an impediment doesnt wash with me.
the fellow who pointed out transcriptions to text and storage as such makes the simplest point,
one I have mentioned before. But I dont think the memory storage is a problem.
so many ways to skin that cat. When you realize that the big fish is facial recognition, and the storage of video
has probably been whittled down to some amazing measure, we should stop talking about the pixels and look at the big picture.
its surveillance of presumably innocent American citizens and all those other sorts that folks would deny any dignity or legal
standing towards.
the big thing about America was always
FREEDOM
and now it isnt.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Too much storage of information and too much facial recognition and a person can be framed for anything.
It is a clear and present danger, and has been since the "Patriot Act" was enacted.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Also, they have the option of keeping just a short sample of a recorded voice, the rest could be copied to text, as noted. And, as noted, the massive data centers do exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
In August 2012, The New York Times published short documentaries by independent filmmakers entitled The Program,[7] based on interviews with a whistleblower named William Binney. The project had been designed for foreign signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection but, Binney alleged, after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, controls that limited unintentional collection of data pertaining to U.S. citizens were removed, prompting concerns by him and others that the actions were illegal and unconstitutional. Binney alleged that the Bluffdale facility was designed to store a broad range of domestic communications for data mining without warrants.[8]
Documents leaked to the media in June 2013 described PRISM, a national security electronic surveillance program operated by the NSA, as enabling in-depth surveillance on live internet communications and stored information.[9][10] Reports linked the data center to the NSA's controversial expansion of activities, which store extremely large amounts of data. Privacy and civil liberties advocates raised concerns about the unique capabilities that such a facility would give to intelligence agencies.[11][12] They park stuff in storage in the hopes that they will eventually have time to get to it, said James Lewis, a cyberexpert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, or that theyll find something that they need to go back and look for in the masses of data. But, he added, most of it sits and is never looked at by anyone.[13]
The UDC is expected to store internet data as well as phone records from the controversial NSA call database when it opens in 2013.[14]
In light of the controversy over the NSA's involvement in the practice of mass surveillance in the United States, and prompted by the 2013 mass surveillance disclosures by ex-NSA contractor Edward Snowden, the Utah Data Center was hailed by The Wall Street Journal as a "symbol of the spy agency's surveillance prowess".[15]
grasswire
(50,130 posts)So many articles and comments sections to read to keep up! I find comments sections so very compelling. So many smart people all over the world with common respect for civil liberties.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)that goes way back. When they get a bee in their bonnet, it generally pays to listen.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)The ultimate goal of the NSA is total population control
William Binney is one of the highest-level whistleblowers to ever emerge from the NSA. He was a leading code-breaker against the Soviet Union during the Cold War but resigned soon after September 11, disgusted by Washingtons move towards mass surveillance.
At least 80% of all audio calls, not just metadata, are recorded and stored in the US, says whistleblower William Binney that's a 'totalitarian mentality'
As Binney said: I call people who are covering up NSA crimes traitors.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/11/the-ultimate-goal-of-the-nsa-is-total-population-control
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... HOW the NSA plans to reach its goal of "total population control", and for what ultimate purpose.
Other than those two rather substantial omissions, his theory is, uh - well, fascinating.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... could figure that out and it's been discussed here numerous times. you argue like a right-winger, all deflection, willful ignorance, etc.
It's really not going to work, sorry.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)they argue like right wingers. In this particular instance, they attempt to make everything about Snowden. You never hear a peep out of them about NSA crimes, they always respond with a deflection.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)disrupt, deflect, distract, deny
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Why can't we all just focus on that, instead of this gotcha nonsense?
Greenwald hates us for our freedoms. He must be stopped.
Regards,
Just-another-persona Manny
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)There it is!
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Our government is deeply, malignantly corrupt.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)Thanks for posting it.
Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I guess he did as he claimed then. No surprise that they lied, their leader Clapper, lied to Congress with no consequences, so no one expects consequences anymore.
However, there are always consequences if not the kind we expect. Their credibility sinks lower every day giving Snowden the very credibility they tried to destroy.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Did the NSA ever deny that they retain such email records? Common sense would dictate that they do - in the same way most agencies, organizations, and corporations retain such records.
"The letter marks the first time the NSA has publicly acknowledged retaining communication and employment records related to Snowdens time as a contractor." Did the NSA ever say they didn't? Does anyone in the world honestly believe that the NSA DIDN'T retain such records before they "publicly acknowledged" that they do? Even the smallest companies regularly retain employment records. Did you think an agency like the NSA doesn't?
I am at a loss as to what you think the NSA is "lying about". They have said they have no emails from Snowden raising his concerns about NSA activity to his superiors. Did they ever say they had NO EMAILS from Snowden at all? Of course they didn't.
I am truly curious to know what you mean by "So they lied, AGAIN? And Snowden was telling the truth, AGAIN."
What did the NSA lie about in the context of the OP? What was Snowden telling the truth about that has been proven by the OP?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)A web of deception has finally been untangled: the Justice Department got the US supreme court to dismiss a case that could have curtailed the NSA's dragnet. Why?
Trevor Timm
theguardian.com, Saturday 17 May 2014
If you blinked this week, you might have missed the news: two Senators accused the Justice Department of lying about NSA warrantless surveillance to the US supreme court last year, and those falsehoods all but ensured that mass spying on Americans would continue. But hardly anyone seems to care least of all those who lied and who should have already come forward with the truth.
Here's what happened: just before Edward Snowden became a household name, the ACLU argued before the supreme court that the Fisa Amendments Act one of the two main laws used by the NSA to conduct mass surveillance was unconstitutional.
In a sharply divided opinion, the supreme court ruled, 5-4, that the case should be dismissed because the plaintiffs didn't have "standing" in other words, that the ACLU couldn't prove with near-certainty that their clients, which included journalists and human rights advocates, were targets of surveillance, so they couldn't challenge the law. As the New York Times noted this week, the court relied on two claims by the Justice Department to support their ruling: 1) that the NSA would only get the content of Americans' communications without a warrant when they are targeting a foreigner abroad for surveillance, and 2) that the Justice Department would notify criminal defendants who have been spied on under the Fisa Amendments Act, so there exists some way to challenge the law in court.
It turns out that neither of those statements were true but it took Snowden's historic whistleblowing to prove it.
CONTINUED...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/17/government-lies-nsa-justice-department-supreme-court
There's lots more, if you care to look.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... "in the context of the OP".
Sabrina1 stated: "So they lied, AGAIN? And Snowden was telling the truth, AGAIN."
I am curious as to what information in this article shows the NSA to be lying, and exactly what they are lying about.
I added the "in the context of the OP" because I didn't want a litany of past grievances.
Things like this stand out for me: "The letter marks the first time the NSA has publicly acknowledged retaining communication and employment records related to Snowdens time as a contractor."
What is that supposed to convey? Did anyone honestly believe that the NSA did not retain such records before they "publicly acknowledged" doing so?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...in Congress, in the Judiciary, and in the Executive -- those We the People elect to represent us. That's what sabrina1 made clear and the OP made clear.
Snowden has been shown to be telling the truth in regards to his emails regarding his concerns, as well as the information on the illegal spherical spying operation on the American people. That's what the NSA seems to be lying about -- from Clapper in Congress to their spokesperson answering questions from reporters.
The reason I replied to your questions was because I was surprised to see you were more concerned in painting Snowden to be the criminal, instead of focusing on the criminal NSA domestic spying operation. Had I known you were more interested in drumming up contempt for Snowden than in defending democracy, I wouldn't have bothered.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)I was asking a question as to what, in the article linked by the OP, would lead someone to say that the NSA is shown to be lying, and Snowden is shown to be telling the truth.
I was asking about THIS specific article, and what was being derived from it.
"Snowden has been shown to be telling the truth in regards to his emails regarding his concerns ..." etc.
Uh, no, he hasn't. Thus far, we have Snowden's "word for it" that he sent such emails. We have yet to see them.
"The reason I replied to your questions was because I was surprised to see you were more concerned in painting Snowden to be the criminal, instead of focusing on the criminal NSA domestic spying operation. Had I known you were more interested in drumming up contempt for Snowden than in defending democracy, I wouldn't have bothered."
Not for nuthin', Octafish, but that sounds a little too cult-like to be taken seriously. You think that someone asking questions about an article about FOIA request to access Snowden's emails is "concerned about painting Snowden to be a criminal"? You think my asking someone to clarify what they took from this article, in terms of it containing some kind of proof the NSA's or Snowden's truthfulness, is "drumming up contempt for Snowden" and "failing to defend democracy"?
Seriously, dude - that sounds like kool-aide talkin'. The fact that you have interpreted a few simple queries as some kind of nefarious conspiracy to undermine your hero - and undermine democracy while I'm at it - is just too damned whack.
To be honest, that kind of mindset - and that kind of devotion to one man - is downright scary.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The article, no matter how you parse it, supports Snowden's version of events.
As for cultlike devotion to one man, I side with those people who support the constitution, not undermine it. Unlike you, I find that includes Snowden and many other whistleblowers.
Sen. Frank Church explained why they deserve support and respect in 1975:
That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesnt matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.
"I dont want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.
-- Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) FDR New Deal, Liberal, Progressive, World War II combat veteran. A brave man, the NSA was turned on him. Coincidentally, he narrowly lost re-election a few years later.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Octafish/277
That wasn't in the OP, but the OP was all about that.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)No matter how many times I say I'm not interested in their god, they keep shoving their literature under my door.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)BTW: Reading your replies on this thread makes it easy to see how the traitors get away with wars for profit and welfare for the wealthy, while it's austerity for the majority and civil rights dim in the national memory. Don't get mad. It's just what you project.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Now my replies on a message board enable traitors to get away with war for profit, etc.
I don't know which is the more appropriate response, or
Octafish
(55,745 posts)As for your smilies: Like your words, they reveal a person who is confused or missing the boat. I don't know which, as it's not my problem.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... for someone who is interested in your opinion.
I'm not.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)You don't need to worry, though, you can't hurt my feelings. It's you that you should be worried about.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)To what end, one wonders.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... with cries of "orchestrated disruption" - yet another delusion-laden viewpoint hinging on extreme paranoia.
Questioning anything pertaining to Snowden, no matter how remote the connection, is the product of a vast conspiracy to undermine him - and must be protected against at all costs.
We're getting into Jim Jones territory here.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...it is the continued undermining of Snowden that must continue, and be protected against all costs...
Octafish
(55,745 posts)It's OK if NSA says it has them, but doesn't have to release the because of, ah, national security, that's it. The one that he has released, and now is confirmed by NSA, shows the guy knew what he was doing. The email shows he was concerned about authority and the chain of command. Any others, IMFO, are just icing on a very rancid cake.
So, focus on the sideshow, Patriot! Even though all Snowden has done is lift the lid on the secret government to expose the corrupt and undemocratic nature of the NSA.
The Big Con at Dealey Plaza by DUer Bill Kelly explains how the pros learned the trade.
(ETA first paragraph.)
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)...is still working so there is probably no good reason to abandon it just yet. Even in this age of emerging transparency, exploiting the fear of the unknown is still highly effective.
It is disappointing to see Americans looking googly-eyed at all the illusions and then, coming to the conclusion that it happened exactly the way the "magician" said it did. It is harder for many of us to believe because we saw through the illusion before they got proficient at obfuscation. Not so for those still heavily invested in one or more of the myths of American democracy.
You show admirable patience with the uninformed. In case I haven't said it lately, you rock!!
.
questionseverything
(9,657 posts)from that link
<<<<<<<<<<<t we do know other Justice Department officials knew about both things, and they have let both lies stand without correcting the record.
Lawyers before the supreme court are under an ethical obligation to correct the record if they make false statements to the Court even if they are unintentional yet the Justice Department has so far refused. As ACLU deputy legal director Jameel Jaffer explained, the Justice Department has corrected the record in other cases where it was much less clear-cut whether it had misled the court.
The government's response, instead, has been to explain why it doesn't think these statements are lies. In a letter to Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall that only surfaced this week, the government made the incredible argument that the "about" surveillance was classified at the time of the case, so it was under no obligation to tell the supreme court about it. And the Justice Department completely sidestepped the question of whether it lied about notifying defendants, basically by saying that it started to do so after the case, and so this was somehow no longer an issue.
But there's another reason the government wanted any challenge to the Fisa Amendments Act dismissed without being forced to argue that it doesn't violate the Fourth Amendment: it has an extremely controversial view about your (lack of) privacy rights, and probably doesn't want anyone to know. As Jaffer wrote here at the Guardian earlier this week, the government has since been forced to defend the Fisa Amendments Act, and it's pretty shocking how they've done it. Here's what the government said in a recent legal brief:
The privacy rights of US persons in international communications are significantly diminished, if not completely eliminated, when those communications have been transmitted to or obtained from non-US persons located outside the United States>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.............
sad k&r for your post oct
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)raised concerns, then suddenly discovered ONE email, and Clapper of course, the head of the NSA who lied blatantly to Congress, everything they say from then on needs to be proven. Snowden was correct, as that one suddenly discovered email proved. He has claimed all along that there were lots more. Now it appears there are. Why did they not acknowledge this before? And why not release them now?
All they have to do is comply with Snowden's request to release the emails they NOW ACKNOWLEDGE to have and let the people decide who is lying.
But for some reason, they are refusing to do so.
You only get the benefit of the doubt when you have a record of telling the truth. When your record is one of lying, people have every right to doubt your prevarications, and in this case, they do. So far, Snowden is not the one people have caught lying. Simple and logical deduction, the NSA is lying AGAIN.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)The NSA never denied that it had emails from Snowden - and anyone who thinks the NSA would not regularly retain emails, personnel records, etc., is living in an alternate universe.
They have denied that they have emails from Snowden "raising his concerns". They still maintain that such emails were never sent.
"But for some reason, they are refusing to do so." Wow, that's really ODD, isn't it? A gov't agency that deals in highly sensitive and confidential information isn't willing to release emails that may - and most likely do - contain said information.
Those emails might also contain some of Snowden's personal information, which the NSA is not at liberty to disclose - and Snowden hasn't issued a waiver to allow any personal information that may be contained therein to be made public.
"He has claimed all along that there were lots more."
No, he hasn't. For almost a year, Snowden maintained that he didn't raise his concerns because he thought it pointless to do so. It was only a couple of months ago that he suddenly remembered that, oh, yes, there were lots of emails in which he raised his concerns.
The one email that was released contained a query about training material. Even Snowden has not attached any importance to it as being proof of his claims; Greenwald dismissed it as "not important" the day after it was released.
There is a vast difference between saying "we have NO emails from Snowden" and "we have no emails from Snowden wherein he raised concerns". If you honestly think that the NSA has ever denied having ANY emails from Snowden whatsoever, you are living in la-la land.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)(which they published hoping to discredit him but failed, obviously) they had previously denied having, they claimed it was the ONLY email they had.
NOW they say they have more. But can't release them.
That is called a 'lie'.
http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-nsa-emails-2014-5#ixzz37BY99UzA
Emphasis mine ...
Note, 'only CORRESPONDENCE' found. Not 'only correspondence relating to concerns expressed by Snowden!
FFS indeed!
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... a bit more thoroughly.
The phrase "what it said was the only email correspondence found" in the above excerpt from Business Insider is blue-linked in the original article. If you follow that link, it takes you to another Business Insider article which states:
"On Thursday, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence posted on its website what it described as Snowden's only correspondence with NSA's Office of General Counsel."
http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-interview-brian-williams-email-nsa-general-counsel-2014-5
Honestly, I cannot believe that ANYONE would think that the NSA was denying that they ever received ANY emails from Snowden. That is a completely ludicrous notion and, given the nature of Snowden's job and the agency he was working for, completely defies common sense.
The NSA never said they had NO EMAILS WHATSOEVER FROM SNOWDEN. And if you think they did, please feel free to link to the NSA making such a claim.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)when Bush/Cheney used it to spy on the American people, appointing people like Clapper and other Bush loyalists, most still there.
The NSA claimed to have NO emails from Snowden for over a year, then suddenly found what they claimed was the ONLY ONE clearly exposing the lie they themselves had told.
Clapper lied blatantly to Congress, or are you denying that also? What is ludicrous is that he is STILL in that position, that he was left in it when we kicked Republicans out of office and not replaced by a Democrat.
Clapper lied, the NSA has lied for over a decade. We are still waiting for any proof at all, that Snowden lied.
As I said, when you have a record of lying on such a massive scale as this Bush/Cheney agency has, when whistle blower after whistle blower has exposed those lies, the benefit of ANY DOUBT goes to the latest Whistle Blower.
Let them prove Snowden is lying by doing as he has requested, release those emails they have now 'found'.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... to the NSA denying they had ANY emails from Snowden.
If they had ever made such a ludicrous statement, even the laziest MSM types would have been all over it: "NSA denies ever receiving a single email from Snowden!!!"
People on DU would have been all over it as well: "How could Snowden have worked for that many months at the NSA and NEVER sent a SINGLE email while there?"
The reason nobody jumped on that bandwagon is because anyone with common sense KNOWS that the NSA never denied having emails from Snowden. What they HAVE denied is that any of those emails contain Snowden "raising his concerns" about what was going on there.
Again I invite you to provide links to anyone at the NSA saying "we don't have any Snowden emails whatsoever" - but this time, you might want to read things in their entirety before you post them as "proof" that the NSA actually said any such thing.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)as he claimed.
THEN they found ONE email, after a year of denials and AFTER his Brian Williams interview.
Are you denying the lies told by the NSA AND their Chief, Clapper? Not sure what your point is, they lied, period. Which is nothing new being it's the same right wing organization put in place by Bush/Cheney. Did you defend them when they lied consistently during the Bush era? I am astounded that there is ANY doubt they lied.
Please link to any lies told by Snowden, Binney, Drake et al. Just google NSA lies if you think these people are credible.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... he had not gone through 'proper channels' because he thought it would be fruitless to do so.
He later changed his story, saying that he HAD raised his concerns with his superiors in emails. The NSA has denied that they have any emails in which Snowden raised such concerns. They NEVER said there were NO Snowden emails.
Had the NSA ever denied having ANY Snowden emails, Stewart and Colbert alone would have had a field day with such a preposterous claim, not to mention the rest of the world.
Have you noticed that no one here is jumping in to back-up your claims that the NSA denied having a single email? That's because the only person who believes something so ludicrous seems to be you.
I am absolutely certain that if the NSA denied having a single Snowden email, that fact would have been discussed as nauseum in news shows, blogs, radio shows, on political websites. So if the NSA did indeed say any such thing, you should have no trouble coming up with a few links quoting them as saying so.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)through the 'proper' channels, which is what Drake and Binney did are two entirely different things. Snowden did not go through all those channels, no doubt aware of Drake's and Binney's efforts and the disastrous affects on their lives for doing so. He stated he raised concerns within the agency, a much, much different thing.
I do not need a back up team, what is your point? Never have, I speak for me alone and always have. and have provided you with a link to prove my point.
For the life of me I can't fathom why you are defending the NSA though, considering their long record of lies and deceptions. Not to mention that this is Bush/Cheney's NSA which I don't recall ANYONE here defending.
Lol, I see now they are claiming they 'can't release Snowden's emails because, sorry I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type, 'because it would VIOLATE HIS PRIVACY'! Hilarious. It is Onion material, except it's true. They are beyond stupid so nothing they do surprises me.
They lied about any paper trail between them and Snowden, then revealed they lied by producing part of it.
All they have to do is comply with his request and release that paper trail they now admit having, thanks to the FOIA, and if they are telling the truth, we will see it for ourselves. Meantime they have zero credibility.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 15, 2014, 01:24 AM - Edit history (1)
The "proper channels" being discussed here are limited to Snowden's claim of alerting his superiors, via email, of his "concerns". He now claims he went through THOSE proper channels.
I didn't say you needed a back-up because you couldn't speak for yourself. I said that no one here was backing you up on your claims that the NSA denied having any Snowden emails. As per usual, you now want to change the subject because you realize you're the only person who believes that ridiculous notion to be true.
"Lol, I see now they are claiming they 'can't release Snowden's emails because, sorry I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type, 'because it would VIOLATE HIS PRIVACY'! Hilarious."
Those emails may contain very personal information about Snowden, e.g. the fact that he saw a certain type of medical specialist, or a series of shrinks. The NSA is not allowed, by law, to release Snowden's personal information to the public. I don't know if Snowden is even in a position to execute a written waiver of his rights that would be acceptable in the US, but his just saying he wants them all released is not good enough.
"They lied about any paper trail between them and Snowden, then revealed they lied by producing part of it."
What on God's earth is the "paper trail"? And what part of it was produced? And if you're going to refer to the email about the training material - don't. That's an email - if you want to now classify it as a "paper trail", fine.
The fact remains that you have insisted that the NSA denied having ANY emails from Snowden. It is a claim you cannot support with even one link to one quote to one NSA spokesperson.
It's a fail. Just admit it and move on.
Edited to add: The link you provided to "prove you point" had a link of its own, which completely disproves your contention that the NSA said this was the ONLY email they had from Snowden. I see you have chosen to simply ignore that inconvenient fact.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)in order to try to defend themselves AFTER he spoke to the media, they 'suddenly' stumbled across ONE. I am at a loss as to why you are attempting to defend this lying, deceptive, constitutional violating privatized by Bush/Cheney, headed by Bush loyalist, Clapper, 'govt' organization, when the PROOF of their lies is historic.
But you are free to do as you wish, facts are facts. Snowden has not been caught lying, they have. He was proven to be correct re a paper trail after a year of denials, they were proven to have lied.
Now they are trying to hide this paper by, laughably, claiming concern for his privacy.
There has been a concerted smear campaign against him so don't make me laugh by claiming they are worried about his medical records. Are you serious??
How do YOU know about that?? Because it has already been USED in an attempt to smear him so as I said, don't make me laugh by attempting to claim 'concern' on their part.
Keep on defending them if you wish, as I told others one year ago when they believed their claims of NO emails, we will see once again, that they are lying, AGAIN.
Wrt to your 'observation' of 'no one backing you up', has it occurred to you that many people here have other DUers on ignore because they do not wish to engage them? I have no one on ignore, but others do, so you shouldn't be surprised if people are not reading your posts. I expect that frankly, surprised it hasn't occurred to you.
I don't see anyone here backing YOU up either. Possibly for the same reason, who knows or cares? I know people email their friends looking for support, but I never have, don't need to, don't care who does or doesn't support me, but since it's so important to you, I noticed no one supporting you either.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)I am simply pointing out that your contention that the NSA denied having ANY emails is absolutely ludicrous.
As I've said, had they taken such a ridiculous position, the media would have been all over it. Stewart and Colbert would have had a field day. DU would have been full of threads about it, with people mocking the notion that Snowden could have been in the NSA's employ without ever having sent a single email the entire time he was there. There would have been dozens of OP's about the NSA taking a position that literally flies in the face of common sense.
But there were no such news items, no discussions, no OPs - because it never happened.
Again I invite you to post links to anyone from the NSA making such a statement.
If, as you contend, this highly newsworthy position was ever taken by the NSA, you should have no trouble finding evidence of same.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)http://upriser.com/posts/nsa-releases-snowden-email-after-denying-its-existence
The NSA has, until now, denied the existence of any such correspondence.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/207692-snowden-rejects-nsa-claim-that-only-single-email-exists
There are numerous avenues that Mr. Snowden could have used to raise other concerns or whistleblower allegations, the agency said. We have searched for additional indications of outreach from him in those areas and to date have not discovered any engagements related to his claims.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/29/nsa-email-snowden-surveillance-internal-whistleblowing
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/29/nsa-edward-snowden-email_n_5412579.html
"This whole issue is a red herring," he wrote. "The problem was not some unknown and isolated instance of misconduct. The problem was that an entire system of mass surveillance had been deployed -- and deemed legal -- without the knowledge or consent of the public."
"On the specific issue: Snowden raised many complaints over many channels. The NSA is releasing a single part of a single exchange -- after previously claiming that no evidence existed."
I dunno, I'll take MJ and the ACLU among others' interpretation of all this over Clapper and his privatized agency anytime.
Clapper of course lost all credibility when he lied to Congress although that appears to be okay these days. Alexander also.
There is plenty more on this going back at least a year. I don't have time to spend getting you caught up on all of it. But I don't think there is any doubt that the NSA lied, and therefore it can be assumed, unless they release what Snowden has authorized them to release and it proves Snowden wrong, that they are lying again.
It's simple logic at this point.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... stating that the NSA denied having ANY Snowden emails. They refer to his claims that he sent emails raising his concerns with his superiors.
You keep bringing up Clapper - which has nothing to do with whether the NSA denied having ANY emails. I know you want to change the subject, as you always do when you've made claims you can't substantiate.
I repeat: Had the NSA denied having ANY SNOWDEN EMAILS AT ALL, that would have been BIG news.
Have you wondered why you can't find a single link to a news story saying, "Mr. So-and-So of the NSA stated today that the agency has NO emails from Snowden whatsoever"?
You can't find any, because they don't exist - because the NSA never made such a statement.
"But I don't think there is any doubt that the NSA lied, and therefore it can be assumed, unless they release what Snowden has authorized them to release and it proves Snowden wrong, that they are lying again. It's simple logic at this point."
No, that's not simple logic; it is being simple-minded.
Snowden has NOT authorized them to release anything. He is probably not in a position to execute a legal waiver that would be acceptable in the US. Under normal circumstances, he would probably have to swear a document to that effect at a US Embassy - but for obvious reasons, he can't do that.
Snowden CANNOT, under any circumstances, compel the NSA to release documents that relate to, mention, or touch upon classified information on his say-so.
Snowden now claims he sent emails to higher-ups about his concerns. The NSA has maintained there are no such emails - so how can they produce something that doesn't exist in order to disprove Snowden's claims?
So you keep looking for a link to anyone from the NSA stating that they have NO emails from Snowden. You're so sure it happened, shouldn't be too difficult to find such a quote.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)sources, just a few of which I linked to above, over and over again. Until they found ONE. If MJ and the ACLU and everyone else who have asked them for over one year now, what they had, and everyone interpreted their responses as 'we have no email correspondence with Snowden, including even the usually sycophantic MSM, then I don't think I am the one who having difficulty with this.
It is LUDICROUS to credit the NSA with 'protecting our interests' as you are doing when the WHOLE WORLD knows they have done the EXACT OPPOSITE for well over a decade now.
The reason why they are refusing to release those emails is because Snowden is RIGHT and they are trying to defend themselves from being exposed as liars once again, USING THE OLD 'National Security', No, wait, THIS TIME they are using HIS PRIVACY.
Are you really serious about this? I'm asking because it's hard to believe anyone on a Dem forum believes the NSA cares one bit about our privacy, I mean it's become comedy gold to make that claim now, and certainly not Snowden's.
I asked but you didn't answer, perhaps you missed it. How did YOU know about Snowden's Health Issues, you claimed they were trying to protect that information. So how did the world find out about it??
As I said, you are free to try to excuse them, I know they are lying. I knew they were lying when they denied spying on the American. We all knew they were lying, at least Dems did. And I know they are lying now.
Why do I mention Clapper? Clapper is still, shamefully, head of the NSA and HE claimed there was no correspondence with Snowden.
Frankly I don't care much what anyone thinks, I care way, way more about our RIGHTS which are guaranteed in the US Constitution and which have been violated over and over again starting minutes after 9/11 and continuing to this day. And I will believe the NSA when all the Bush crowd have been removed and replaced with Democrats. Why that has not happened so far is a huge mystery to many people.
From the links above. That seems pretty definitive to me.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)Your attempts to change the subject are getting downright pitiful.
We are NOT having a discussion about Clapper, or the NSA at large, or me crediting the NSA with protecting us - NONE of that is part of this conversation.
The only point I have raised with you is your assertion that the NSA denied having ANY Snowden emails.
THINK ABOUT IT, sabrina.
Do you honestly think that if an agency like the NSA made a statement that despite Snowden having been an employee for three months, he never sent a SINGLE email in all of that time, THAT statement wouldn't have been BIG NEWS?
In view of that BIG NEWS, do you believe that not a single DUer would have posted about it? Do you believe that not a single news outlet would have covered it? Do you believe that not a single blogger would have written about it?
More to the point, do you think that Snowden wouldn't have made a BIG ISSUE of it, saying, "How can the NSA expect people to believe that I never sent a single email?" Do you think Greenwald wouldn't have made a major issue out of such a statement, if it actually happened?
Why do you think everyone is silent on the subject? Could it be because everyone KNOWS the NSA never made such a statement - other than you?
The links you've provided all discuss the emails in the context of the ones Snowden now claims he sent to his superiors, alerting them to his concerns. They do NOT even hint at the idea that the NSA ever denied that Snowden sent emails on other topics - because the NSA never took that position.
"The reason why they are refusing to release those emails is because Snowden is RIGHT and they are trying to defend themselves from being exposed as liars once again, USING THE OLD 'National Security', No, wait, THIS TIME they are using HIS PRIVACY."
Are you truly naive enough to think that the NSA is not OBLIGATED BY LAW to keep confidential information confidential? As for releasing anything that would disclose Snowden's personal information, again BY LAW they are not permitted to do so. In both cases, we are dealing with the LAW here, not a whim on the part of the NSA.
"How did YOU know about Snowden's Health Issues, you claimed they were trying to protect that information."
What I wrote was: "Those emails may contain very personal information about Snowden, e.g. the fact that he saw a certain type of medical specialist, or a series of shrinks."
Do you understand what the word "may" means? Do you understand what "e.g." means? It means "for example".
The fact that you are unable to understand the difference between someone saying what "may" be the case and someone making a definitive statement, along with not knowing what "e.g." means, leads me to believe that perhaps your problem lies with simple reading comprehension.
So explain to me again how what would be an astoundingly newsworthy announcement by the NSA - saying they had NO emails from Snowden whatsoever - has rendered you unable to find a SINGLE news story, blog, DU post, etc., containing that statement.
The FACT is, sabrina, that the NSA never took any such position. And rambling on and on about Clapper, and "defending the NSA", and who on a Dem forum believes what - yadda, yadda, yadda, does not change that FACT.
Seriously, girl - DU is full of Snowden supporters who follow every last detail about him and about the NSA. And yet you want me to believe that not a single DUer ever posted a comment on, an OP about, or an LBN post linking to what would have been an earth-shaking statement by the NSA.
Amazing.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)journalists from various news sources, state plainly that they had no email trail with Snowden. I didn't publish those comments, the media published them. If you want to ignore them, that is not my problem.
You are attempting to distract from the issue by focusing on minutiae, an old trick but it isn't working.
The reason you won't find much, even from me, on DU about this is because it didn't become an issue until the Snowden interview a few weeks ago. So you can drop the claims that 'nothing was written on DU'. It wasn't because it wasn't a huge issue until a few weeks ago.
When the NSA DID finally produce ONE email, THEN it became an issue BECAUSE they had claimed there were none. And then there was one. So it's logical now to assume there are more, as claimed by Snowden. He was right up to now, they were wrong. I have provided you with evidence of that, ignore it if you wish.
The issue is and will remain, no matter how much effort is made to distract from it is that the NSA has lied, over and over again, and their directors have lied to Congress.
Whether Clapper said 'we have no email correspondence with Snowden' or 'we have no email correspondence on this topic with Snowden' is of no consequence, because it was WAS a lie as was proven when they, in an effort to try to discredit him AFTER the interview, produced one which they could have produced ONE YEAR AGO but were claiming they did not have one.
I will continue to mention Clapper and Alexander and all the other Bush loyalists and appointees who are the NSA until they are GONE. If that is problem for you then all I can say is don't read my posts.
I've doing it since the beginning of the Bush era and since not much has changed in that agency, will continue until it is no longer necessary. I don't ignore things because people I like are now part of it. That would be hypocritical which I try hard not to be.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)... and what's more, I think you know that. You just won't admit you were wrong.
Had the NSA made a statement that they had NO emails from Snowden, that would have been headline news. Every pro-Snowden journalist or blogger would have jumped on it immediately and could have shouted from the rooftops that the NSA was obviously lying - and would have had a very large and receptive audience - because NO ONE would ever believe that not a single Snowden email existed.
But according to you, no one anywhere thought it was "an issue" - apparently not even Snowden himself, whose self interests would be served rather well by such a statement. Nor did Greenwald, apparently - who makes a big fuckin' deal out of every single word that emanates from the NSA. According to you, he had this great opportunity to make a point about the NSA telling the biggest whopper of all time - and he chose to ignore it.
Had the NSA made the statement you still insist they did, you should be able to find hundreds of links to that official statement. "Mr. so-and-so, speaking on behalf of the NSA, today stated that the agency has NO emails from Edward Snowden." You can't even find ONE.
Again, according to you, not a single newspaper, news show, political website, political blog, or political talk show [1]so much as mentioned in passing that the NSA had told what would have been such an obvious blatant lie - not one.
Do you understand just how ridiculous that idea is?
Apparently, you don't.
You KNOW how many posters here are always on about NSA's lies. Do you really believe that a lie THIS BIG would not have been mentioned by a single one of them? Did YOU also think a lie THIS BIG wasn't "an issue"? I didn't see you posting any OPs about it. In fact, why don't you post an OP about it now, and see how many people back up your ludicrous assertion that the NSA denied having a single solitary email from Snowden, and see the reaction you get.
You are really making yourself look like a fool. Put the shovel down - the hole you're already in is big enough.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)pronouns AND which ones, someone uses when engaged in a discussion. They are the words that demonstrate whether the debater is engaged in a discussion about the issues or has resorted to making the discussion about their opponent, never a good sign.
The more 'yous or you'res or yourselfs etc there are, the more the person is engaged in attacking their opponent rather than engaging in a discussion.
I counted four 'yous' in the first two lines if your comment.
Sorry, just an observation of something I have found to be very useful.
Wrt to my comments in the previous post, I repeat, the issue became a big issue when the NSA suddenly found an email they had previously denied having. They themselves tried to explain it.
They now admit to having more but claim they are protecting Snowden's privacy by not releasing them.
As I said and will repeat, when someone has a record of lying, over years actually, they do not get the benefit of the doubt.
Snowden has asked them to release his email file. There is now no reason on earth why they should not do so, unless it will expose them as lying.
If you want to talk about me, that's rather flattering I suppose. But this discussion isn't about me, it is about the emails the NSA has but despite the FOIA and Snowden's authorization to release them, they are refusing to do so.
They have a bad reputation, all over the globe at this point. Few believe a word they say. It would be in their own best interests to release the emails IF they do not, as they have claimed, contain what Snowden claims. The only reason they would not release them therefore, is that he is telling the truth.
I have posted and won't do so again, I really don't have the time, statements from reputable news sources stating that the NSA has claimed to not have emails from Snowden as he claimed, in fact some of them state that the NSA claimed to have NO emails from Snowden. If you want to deny what you have read with your own eyes, I cannot help you. Or maybe you just didn't bother to read them. I can't help that.
'Out to lunch'. I guess that means 'crazy' or something. Well, I've been called worse here and am not one to worry about words too much, but it's interesting. Nor do I care much what anyone else thinks, so don't waste time telling me that I am 'making yourself look foolish'. Lol, did you do a pollor something?
The NSA lied, period. They can disprove that by releasing the emails. So far they have not.
NanceGreggs
(27,817 posts)There is a very BIG reason why they can't release it - it's AGAINST THE LAW to do so.
"... statements from reputable news sources stating that the NSA has claimed to not have emails from Snowden as he claimed, in fact some of them state that the NSA claimed to have NO emails from Snowden."
It is you who have been claiming that the NSA said they had NO emails from Snowden - I see you have now modified that to "some (news sources) state the NSA claimed to have no emails".
No matter. This discussion was never about you. For me, a political debate is never personal. I never took exception to your views about Snowden, the NSA, etc., despite disagreeing with them. I took exception to your claiming something that was definitely not true. I think the record should be correct on both sides of a debate, if the debate is to be an honest one.
It was a mistake on your part to claim the NSA had denied having ANY emails. But it was an understandable mistake. Given how many opinion pieces are now passed off as factual journalism, it is often difficult to differentiate between what IS a fact and what someone is claiming to be a FACT.
Just a word of caution on thinking that if the NSA has lied, that means everything Snowden says is automatically the truth.
I have been a court stenographer for 30 years. I have been on hundreds of trials - even several trials of suspected terrorists. I can tell you that it is very common for BOTH sides of a legal proceeding to be caught in inconsistencies, obfuscations, hyperbole, and out-and-out provable lies. The fact that Party A has been caught lying does not mean that Party B is always telling the truth - or vice-versa.
As the old saying goes, there are three sides to every story: what Party A says, what Party B says, and the truth - which is usually found somewhere in the middle.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)See how that works?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)about any of this.
djean111
(14,255 posts)They may as well be speaking in tongues, as far as I am concerned.
Evidently it is legal for them to lie. Why believe anything they say?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)No minds are changed by the lame defenses and disruptions on DU.
Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)getting around here. Sad and pathetic, but expected.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Unless you're talking about taking a poll asking strippers, perhaps on how much they appreciate their working conditions or the impact of NSA spying on their clients' wives. Cough. Eliot Spitzer in STELLAR flipping WIND, per my good friend Wayne Madsen in 2009. Or punctuation. That?
ETA question mark... .. .. . . . .. .. .... .. . . .. Rex!
Rex
(65,616 posts)let us talk about it and not the NSA spying on everyone taking a poop.