What other country begs civilians to leave an area so that the perceived enemy cannot hide behind them in order to assail the attackers for genocidal behavior? Did the USA drop leaflets in Vietnam telling the civilians to get out so the bombs and napalm would strike only the NVA? Did we tell the Apache women and children to flee before the US Cavalry descended upon the villages of the Native Americans? Lastly, does Hamas inform the civilians to pack up and leave so only the IDF members may be hit by their rockets?

Whether anyone here believes it or not, we Jews believe what we state at the Passover Seder: that we mourn the loss of even those sworn to destroy us.

That doesn't make it any less atrocious. Actually, trying to escape guilt by saying you feel bad about murder is a pretty despicable thing to do.

Secondly, where to go is a huge problem. Thirdly, what other country blows up the houses of suspects? And forth, Jews aren't monolithic in their beliefs anymore than any other group is. You have the right to speak for yourself, you don't have the right to speak for all Jews.

Thirdly, what other country blows up the houses of suspects?

Hamas’ Interior Ministry has ordered residents of the Gaza Strip to remain in their houses if they are about to be bombed by the Israelis, a move that effectively turns citizens into human shields and is intentionally meant to boost the casualty rate, according to a copy of the order published by Hamas.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/10/hamas-orders-civilians-die-israeli-airstrikes/

so it may also not be true. In any case, as I said Hamas is crap. That doesn't change the equation.

I don't keep up with what paper is right/left, etc. the news story was in my FB feed.

Honestly I have no idea about the papers, other than the stuff like the blaze, drudge, etc.

hard to believe, I know.

no, we don't believe that is a universal thing in Israel.

The fact that Israel has asserted its right to rule the Palestinians for time eternal tends to suggest that Israel does not view Palestinians as human beings with rights, but rather as an inconvenience and a public relations problem.

Do Americans not view Pakistanis as human beings with rights?

I won't argue with you for a second that Israel is acting in the exact same way or even in a more restrained manner than most other nations would in its place. That doesn't change the fact that peace can't be achieved by perpetuating an endless cycle of violence. One day there's going to be peace and people are going to ask themselves, "why couldn't we have just stopped fighting decades ago?"

Israelis and Palestinians are human beings acting according to human nature. And the result is a fucking tragedy.

With the Palestinian completely surrounded, don't you think what Israel is doing is like shooting fish in a barrel?

Telling the Palestinians to move from one end of the barrel to the other does nothing to lessen their sufferings nor anxieties.

You are entirely correct...it ain't no good. Now why did they not accept those accords all those years ago...this would have been over with by now.

Considering they made up less than 10% of the population. The entire formulation process by the colonialist foreign powers screwed the pooch in trying to draw up the two state solution.

The Palestinian Arabs and the surrounding Arab states weren't willing to entertain the idea of a Jewish state at all, which is why the British let the UN chop it up in the first place. If they had been willing to negotiate for a peaceful solution, I suspect they would've gotten a more favorable split.

The U.S. and Britain also seriously aggravated the situation by not accepting holocaust refugees.

As it happens, the Sderot residents requested an evacuation in 2007. Ultimately the Israeli government said no. For whatever reason, they preferred that the townspeople remain within easy reach of Hamas' artillery:-

http://www.haaretz.com/news/defense-min-halts-evacuation-of-sderot-after-2-500-leave-city-1.220865

No I would 'feel better' if the PA eliminated Hamas, a terrorist organization bent on eradicating Israel in its entirety and sat down at a table and had a discussion.

from the Likud Charter:-

It is the job of the Israeli Armed Forces to act in accordance with international laws on war and human rights.

Any ground invasion would not be justified unless it was determined Hamas would not agree to a ceasefire. And the only way to figure that out is to implement a ceasefire.

Until then, Israel and Hamas are simply committing war crime after war crime. Although, only one is participating in mass murder.

But, the Israeli government and its apologists only understand the language of force and power.

When Hamas fires a rocket, it's like a child having a temper tantrum. They're doing it to provoke a response. Instead of giving them that response, you don't give in.

Beef up your defensive capabilities (as they've done with Iron dome). Thus far zero Israelis have been killed in this latest rocket attack. Let them keep shooting rockets until they realize that they're having no effect whatsoever. Then maybe they'll quit with the tantrum and decide to talk.

That leader is not Netanyahu. He has blown up the peace process Secretary Kerry worked so hard to set in motion.

the weapons to kill Palestinians.You are correct. In a just world he would never have been allowed to run for office.

are willing to pursue it in good faith.

that Israel should pull back to the Mediterranean. It would solve all your problems.

That doesn't however mean we are for ending the state of Israel.

Own what you say.

Those words are thousands if years old. That's how long we have been assaulted. You have a vacuous and specious argument which by the way you have already lost.

I will ask you politely to delete your post immediately.

A simple question with a simple answer yes or no. Israel is currently bombing civilians which constitutes a war crime. So be very careful choosing your response.

and no answer forthcoming.

The answer to this trivially idiotic question is of course not.

Do you feel better? More smug?

The point of my original answer to this bit of nonsense was that the one thing Jews avoided culturally was the death of innocents or relative innocents. But when the guerrilla army hides behind its own women and children...well, that's what happens isn't it?

Go ahead sputter away. Israel ain't going anywhere despite what you post on this message board. Go ahead get the last word because I have about heard the same disingenuous apologies for these cafe bombers for decades. Yes Saturday night used to be feared in Tel Aviv and the other cities for post-Shabbat terrorism. Like the Yom Kippur War. Get 'Em while they're down, right? No complaints around here if that were going on today.

Hamas may hide behind the civilian population, but it isn't the one performing bombing raids. That's the IDF.

So if you want to talk about who's killing who, it's Israel killing civilians. In fact, more than 3/4s of those killed so far in this conflict are civilians who have died from IDF bombing raids.

You say you don't support murdering civilians. But then you support Israel. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you condemn Israel for their war crimes or, through your support of the IDF, your support becomes one for war crimes and mass murder.

yes...Palestinians shooting rockets are hobbyists, Israelis are murderers. Got it.

Tell me, on post-Shabbat Saturday nights, were those cafe bombers murderers, or were they just exercising their rights as Freedom Fighters?

BTW, my cousin has been in a hotel bomb shelter for 4 days, trapped during a visit. But it doesn't matter if its my cousin or someone else's. It is a shanda.

And is also a war crime and the group should be dealt with according to international law.

But, I'm not going to say that one war crime is justification for another, unlike you. I believe that both states are set on the destruction of the other. The philosophical nature of these administrations is remarkably similar. The difference is a functional one. And that is of course that the IDF has billions of dollars in funding, state of the art weaponry and the backing of the largest military industry in human history; the USA.

What is that corny saying? With great power comes great responsibility. Israel has the power in this relationship and they are wielding that power like thugs.

The Palestinian state has a right to sovereignty. And Israel has been suppressing this right for decades.

are full of..... yeah.

I believe Israel should show some good faith and stop expanding settlements, dismantle a couple and curtail the massive bombing campaign of Gaza.

In disgust at your distasteful verbal games,

Eva

see,. you can't stand it that everyone here doesn't just go along with your sanctimonious, self-righteous rooting for the underdog. There are a lot of people here who PM me and say that they just don't have the stamina or the guts to go thru this but just so you know, there are many of us who believe that your position is outrageous but just can't be bothered to deal with you and yours. I have spent my LIFE living in areas where anti-Semitism was rampant and much as you deny it to the skies,. I know exactly what goes through your minds routinely. For all the conflicts in the world, you choose to become vituperatively angry and positively hateful when it comes to Israel and her very existence. Well, you have that right, and I have the right to be similarly outraged that this has been going on since 1948 without cessation.

And I don't have to use profanity to make a point. Your verbal head-banging is duly noted.

rather passionate about a number of topics I suggest you check out Frodo'sPet's thread about racism for much more passionate, much angrier responses from moi.

Oh, and I don't have to use profanity either. Clearly I'm articulate and possessed of a large and varied vocabulary. I like profanity. I enjoy using it. I must say, it is delightfully ironic to hear puling, self-righteous thee, whinging away about others being self-righteous. Fret not, darling, you have a virtual lock on the top prize for that.

You have no idea what goes through my mind. And ask Skinner, I've been more vigilant about calling out anti-semitism than anyone else here- and that's true historically. I'm also vigilant about calling out every other form of bigotry.

A painting hangs over all 61 years of my life. It hung in my parents' living room wherever they lived, 5 houses in total, I think. I have a good framed photographic copy of it hanging in my home. The original is is a life size- or close to it- head to toe portrait of two young women in formal dress of the period, on a stone balcony against a backdrop of trees with heavy foliage and a cloud streaked blue sky. They are clothed in pink silk and white satin. I always thought of them as the Lady in Pink and the Lady in White.

<snip>

They were painted, frozen on that stone balcony, by their brother Louis Ludwig Neustatter, born in Munich in 1829. I believe the painting of his two sisters was done in the tumultuous year or 1848, a year in which revolution swept across the European continent like tumbleweeds. He would have been a mere 19 or 20 at the time. It's an accomplished work, far better I think than his later saccharine genre paintings of simpering children picking wildflowers or prancing in adoring delight about a brown robed monk.

<snip>

Some branches of the maternal side of my family are easily traced. They were well off, they achieved some degree of success in the societies they lived in. It's a bit confusing because cousins had a habit of marrying cousins. My maternal grandparents were 2nd cousins. On the other hand, they were German Jews which means that a lot of historical records have been violently erased.

Unless we know our direct ancestors and their siblings and other relations through letters, journals or diaries, we can only guess what they would have thought about anything. I imagine that it would have shocked Neustatter that he with his honors from German and Austrian royalty would have been consigned to ovens of Auschwitz which burned so steadily some 43 years after his own death in the peaceful welcoming town of Tutzing on the shores of Lake Starnberg.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12021293

Oops. That's right I'm Jewish. I wasn't brought up Jewish but there you go.

tTo be. I don't care if your father were an Orthodox Rebbe. It actually further invalidates your position.

And what you are "known for" around here? Opinions vary...

now do go back to your *concern* about Palestinian civilians killed in massive Israeli bombing raids that you support. It doesn't get more ironic and disingenuous than that. It's called cognitive dissonance- and you have a shit load of that going on.

In further disgust- and I don't give a fuck what YOU "think"

Eva

about this. Grotesque bigotry. go away.

PC is clearly unable to consider ANY position but his/her own.

WTF is wrong with you?
You have nerve calling me a bigot.
Ignore if you like. So be it.

I don't expect you to be rational about this subject."

Basic English. And any 7th grade teacher would tell you that your language says that because PC is a Jew, you don't expect him capable of rationality on this subject.

You said it. You own it and damn well is bigotry as written. no wriggle room.

You think PC's being rational? I can't agree.

And hold onto it as long as you like. This topic has me incensed. Enough of the killing. I refuse to give those arguing for the IDF ANY break. No.
Alert me if you like. I'm too invested in getting people to speak reasonably to care. No wiggle room on that.

I'm not planning on alerting you. I believe that sort of shit should have a spotlight shined on it. If you just wrote carelessly and meant something else, you could have changed it or explained that that isn't what you meant. You chose not to.

My position on this is clear. You aren't doing jack to get people to speak reasonably when you post bigoted dog shit- and that's what you posted: that you don't expect Jews to think rationally about this. fuck that.

and angst.
I am neither a Jew, nor rational at the moment.

My apologies to all. Esp PCI
I will no longer post on this subject.

and I will say this: it isn't a question of whether I can understand a different position. I can quite well. But if someone has sworn to destroy me and mine, then I don't negotiate from my position. If they honestly wish to work things out, then I will talk about it all day and night.

posting on this.

and we'll shut up about Israel.

Deal?

is because the US actively enables Israel's policies, with only the occasional whimper of disapproval.

Take away the US money and weaponry and diplomatic cover, and Israel gets a lot less comfortable thinking they can grind the Palestinians under their heels for the next 1000 years.

of ugliness.

We can only make things worse. Politically inside the US, the disparity between the pro-Israel lobby and the pro-Palestinian lobby is so overwhelming that a rational policy will never be possible from us, and both sides there know it.

things can change with startling rapidity. In any case, we certainly aren't playing a constructive role now.

Another pathetic attempt to equate opposition to Israel's rightwing militarism with anti-semitism and wanting Israel destroyed.

let's try it again...everyone wants Israel to back to the 67 borders, right? Say "Yes", otherwise they here will get really really mad at you. OK, so then the assaults begin again on the narrow isthmus which is the choke-point and then the Israelis need to give up the Old City and Jerusalem, and the Wall, right, since that was not in their possession in 1967 even though it is the holiest place in the Jewish religion, but obviously they have to give it back. Just like the Americans gave the Holy Ground back to the Native Americans after the hostilities, read: genocide, was over. So of course, the Israelis will have to defend themselves from these attacks which will engender the old Pan-Arabist notions of a Greater Palestine encompassing all of the land, and the Jews, well, they can go back to where they came from, since they are not entitled to any homeland at all because someone, sometime lived on it. As I have stated many times, they could colonize Mars and you'd be outraged that they took it from some deserving folk. Anyway, so it is back to Poland, Germany, Russia, Hungary, and all those darling little countries in Europe. so when they get there, the people who have lived in the houses since 1933 will of course just hand them over since they are 'rightfully' the Jews'. Your logic, not mine. So don't accuse me of hyperbole.

You see, I am old enough to remember before the 67 War. Israel's destruction was assured by Nasser himself. And didn't that just work out well for him? I and many others are not fooled for one instant by this nonsensical argument proffered here and elsewhere, and I might add, neither is the UNANIMOUS will of the United States Congress.

first: assurances and deeds commensurate with accepting the fact that Israel is a sovereign state and that it not only has a right to exist, but that groups within cannot call for its destruction, in the manner in which Germany legislated, but is unfortunately not enforcing as well as it should, such laws.

second: After the first, a return to the peace accords which Arafat rejected when he was faced with getting virtually everything they had asked for. His rulers forbade him to accept the deal.

third: negotiate from there.

Ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes....

I don't know how you create a Palestinian government that's serious about peace with Israel. What I do know is that we can't wait the rest of our lifetimes for it to happen.

provide for exactly the same "narrow isthmus" that the 1967 borders would delineate (at least the Olmert proposal would). If you do profess to support those peace proposals, then frankly your objections about the 1967 borders make no sense.

Its also fairly plain that you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. Ehud Barak made a number of vague suggestions at Camp David that fell short of being a specific proposal (in the eyes of the Americans) and also fell fair short of what the Palestinians were asking for (quite stupid that you insist that they would be getting virtually everything they wanted). The only genuine peace proposal made by the Israelis was made by Ehud Olmert (the napkin map) in 2008, which still differed significantly from the Palestinian position.

The remark made by Arafat was that he would get shot if he accepted the sort of proposal that Barak was outlining at Camp David - quite different from the remark that you attribute to him.

Overall, you seem to have a very casual knowledge of events, like most Americans, just barely enough to frame your narrative. I'd caution against trying to appear any more knowledgeable than that. You clearly can't back it up.

when someone is pointing a gun at your face, it doesn't mean much.

You can over-intellectualize all you want. I know what the populus would face if it were ever over-run by its neighbors.

yes, those bloodthirsty savage Palestinians would murder the Israelis in their beds because they all hate Jews.

Disgusting.

its called tearing strips off the arse of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Quite distinct concepts.

in ways other than back to the 67 borders.

and I've said this and no one has gotten "really mad at me".

Don't hold your breath....

BTW, where are the billions that were given to Arafat for his people?

the US population is solidly behind Israel and that is why the Congress voted that way.

I'm an American and I am not behind Israel and Congress did not reflect my opinion. And there are millions just like me.

You are attempting to use an act of Congress as some kind of blanket approval of 350M Americans for the actions of Israel. To be more accurate, you should delete "the US population is solidly behind Israel" and substitute "many people of the US are behind Israel".

So we have two groups made up of war criminals either passively declaring the desire to or actively participating in the total destruction of each other's societies.

Rabin and Araftat who had both been fighting for a better part of their lives actually agreed to novel idea of: "you know, lets give not fighting a try for a while and see what happens". But Bibi couldn't deal with that. He's absolutely disgusting.

And Uri Ariel, the minister responsible for Israeli settlements and construction, is also an ultranationalist who wishes to totally occupy Palestine.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/blogs/politics/11773-israeli-housing-minister-uri-ariel-advocates-for-the-complete-colonisation-of-palestine

Everyone knows that the ultra-nationalist plan would create an apartheid state, which isn't palatable to the Israeli people nor to its supporters in the West. It would completely be the end of Israel as a legitimate democracy.

Bibi doesn't support the absorption plan himself (though he certainly has plenty of proponents in his cabinet). He claims to support a two-state solution, but he does nothing to try and bring about that solution. His solution is basically to continue the status quo indefinitely but to just not say that he's doing that. Admitting so, would also completely undermine Israel's legitimacy as a democracy.

Israeli missiles.

This is madness - they must be stopped.

may not use profanity, but certainly is rude to everyone who does not share his/her views. Nobody can change tunnel vision. The I/P problem is huge and hatred on both sides stops any progress. Many Israelis don't see that what they are doing now will turn a lot of friends into serious critics.

Haven't been here long...have you.

it merely provides them with convenient cover for destroying Palestinian infrastructure, forcing evacuation, and eventually taking over abandoned areas for building more settlements in the name of Manifest Destiny...er, sorry, Greater Israel.

I wouldn't be surprised if such an agenda was carried out under the pretense of bombing campaigns and "humanitarian" evacuations.

This is just horrible!

and this article makes clear what Israel's intentions are. Sickening.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Israel-says-cease-fire-possible-only-if-it-ensures-long-term-quiet-362526

Abbas condemned Hamas to the extent which he can without getting blown up for 'trading in blood'. Your beloved cause has been hijacked by radical Islam and that is what Israel is supposed to succumb to? There are no deals with Hamas, there is only death to the Jews. That is their creed. Or do you think they're just posturing?

Abbas knows what is going on there and is literally surviving by the skin of his teeth - but he can't make a deal since the playbook's first page has a photo of Sadat being assassinated surrounded by his own bodyguards and militia.

Do you have any idea at all what you're dealing with here? Any at all? Jesus...

Do you think, really think, that if Israel ceded everything that your PA/Hamas crowd wants, that it would stop for a minute? If all of Israel were changed to Palestine once again except for one square foot, then that square foot would become the focus of contention. THIS is the Truth and I don't give a damn what anyone on that sided of the line SAYS, their actions demonstrate the opposite.

as expressed by that fuckwad wingnut Netanyahu that Israel has NO interest in peace. Demanding that a cease-fire be long lasting while refusing to engage in any discussions on a cease-fire? Cynical dog shit. Demanding that a cease-fire be "long lasting"? Absurd on the face of it; an oxymoron.

I'm done with you- not because of whatever facile crap you're going to throw out- but because you are wrapped in paranoia, you defend right wing crap because it's Israeli, and despite your ridiculously sanctimonious cant about how all Jews have compassion for all those killed- blatantly untrue- YOU have zero compassion for Palestinians and don't even seem able to recognize them as people- just as blood thirsty savages out for the blood of Jews.

Ugh.

Since when has Israel not engaged in a cease-fire? Of course they are negotiating - they just didn't happen to send a communique to you personally. Do you think you really understand or comprehend the intricacies of all of this?

"Fuckwad"? How creative....nice language. Civil.

See, one cannot have a normal discussion about this here because the PASSION, the HATRED has to come out. I know yo are reading this because you cannot help yourself...

HATEFUL re the Palestinians.

Ugh again, PC

Fact is, they are victims of their leadership in the same way that Americans were victims of Bush's leadership. They have been the pawns in a proxy war for generations. When the Pan-Arabists realized that they could not win militarily, they proffered these poor people as their weapons of war. They did the same thing that the RWers do: they projected onto a people who were nearly eradicated by the Fascists/Nazis the label of Fascist/Nazi. And the games began.

But it is expected that the American Left, which loves an underdog, would rally behind a seemingly innocent group - the portrayals, legitimate BTW, of oppressed individuals who are ghettoized, ravaged by poverty and disease, unable to develop as a civilization. But who was really behid all this? Israeli Arabs are not starving to death, get to go to hospital, drive cars, make money, send their children to college and graduate school. You will probably assert that they are second class citizens: I would assert that so are you and I here in the US of A. We just pretend here...you cannot ignore all the horrendous issues here and denigrate selectively Israel's handling of its population.

But I am just peeing into the wind...