Russian-supplied (maybe even actually RUSSIAN) fighters trying to destabilize the country. Unless you think Abraham Lincoln was wrong as well to wage war in an attempt to keep the US together. That would be consistent. I wish Ukraine the best of luck in maintaining its integrity. Because there's no Nazi/Fascist control of the government, no one is being oppressed, there's an elected government, all of Putin's asinine excuses are out the window--he's just fucking around now in Ukraine to save face and avoid a humiliating abandonment of his efforts.

Lot of blame to spread around, a lot of convergence of negative energy.

Eastern Ukraine is happening because Putin wants it to happen. This is his revenge for Ukraine wanting closer ties with the EU. He can't now find a way to bow out of this gracefully--he has blood on his hands and his popularity is at risk at a time of a shaky economy in Russia.

Google Chrome Translation:

http://rusvesna.su/news/1404041521

LIGHTNING: the sky over Donetsk - DNR commandos captured the garrison missile air defense forces

29.06.2014 - 15:32

In Donetsk, Donetsk Army Special Forces soldiers People's Republic captured the garrison of missile troops, anti-aircraft missile defense regiment number A-1402. In service parts are powerful air defense system of long-range detection and destruction of air targets.

The press service of the Interior Ministry of Ukraine in Donetsk region confirmed this information: "In Donetsk representatives" DNR "seized the military part number A-1402."

Military unit A1402 (Donetsk SAM regiment) formed in the village Alexeevka Belgorod-Dniester region Odessa region. In 2007, was made part of the redeployment of A1402 in Donetsk.

Donetsk missile regiment performs tasks for the protection of the eastern borders of the state and the protection of important industrial centers of Donbass air

~ snip ~

Giving rebels an advanced missile system does make a lot of sense, and stealing it and incompetently using it makes more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-77

Speaking on "Buk" (from 3:30): "I believe that our talented electronicians have already fixed the Buk launchers taken from Ukrainian Bandera bandits. As far as I know the genius electronicians that flew over as representatives of citizen community in Russia to support brother nation, they are already fixed or will be fixed very soon. And for that reason I do not recommend that Kiev repeats the air bombing tricks they did in Lugansk. That story is over! I also know that they have fixed a Su bomber so DPR will soon have their own aviation". Sergey Kurginyan (13 July 2014). "С.Е.Кургинян. Доклад на летней школе о ситуации в ДНР". ECC.TV. Retrieved 18 July 2014.

Published on Jul 13, 2014

Ukraine as part of Ukraine or they view it as the enemy. They had a chance to use diplomacy but chose military action instead. Those under military assault have a right to defend themselves also. I don't recall Eastern Ukraine bombing Kiev, do you?

I guess we are now FOR settling everything with weapons. I remember we had a different view just a few years ago.

The Kiev govt passed some pretty intimidating laws that negatively affected Eastern Eukrainians the minute the took over the government. What do you think people here would do if this government eg, passed similar laws essentially making one segment of the population illegal?

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Thank the gods not everyone believes dropping bombs on people solves anything, see Iraq, or passing discriminatory laws will bring peace.

not to fly their commercial airlines in that active zone with military aircraft attacking civilians.
Did not not expect retaliation?

fights fly over that war zone. You would think that Malaysia having already lost a plane, would have been even more diligent to make sure they didn't lose another one.

(apologies to the DUer I stole that from).

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

Donetsk defence forces take control of army unit equipped with missile defence systems
June 29, 19:30 UTC+4

DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday.
So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment.

The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.

~ snip ~

And that Russian technicians helped make it usable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#cite_note-77

Speaking on "Buk" (from 3:30): "I believe that our talented electronicians have already fixed the Buk launchers taken from Ukrainian Bandera bandits. As far as I know the genius electronicians that flew over as representatives of citizen community in Russia to support brother nation, they are already fixed or will be fixed very soon. And for that reason I do not recommend that Kiev repeats the air bombing tricks they did in Lugansk. That story is over! I also know that they have fixed a Su bomber so DPR will soon have their own aviation". Sergey Kurginyan (13 July 2014). "С.Е.Кургинян. Доклад на летней школе о ситуации в ДНР". ECC.TV. Retrieved 18 July 2014.

He didn't give these clowns the ability to shoot down a jet, considering they'd shot down other jets that same week?

What part of that can you not understand? Why is the US and Western backed Ukrainian using military aircraft to attack its own citizens?

and Ukraine hasn't been attacking civilians with cargo jets, which is what these goofballs thought they were shooting down. You're out on a limb in trying to spread around blame. Putin gave a bunch of clowns the ability to bring down a high-flying civilian jet, absent the accountability and know-how and rules of a real military that belongs to a real country. What he did was unconscionable and that cannot be denied with splutterings of "BUT BUT THE US IS TEH EVIL!!!"

Flight 17 was flying in a well-traversed route.

“This was a very commonly used route and passenger jets fly at high altitudes over many of the world's hotspots all the time," said Norman Shanks, an aviation security expert at Coventry University in the UK. “They chose the most direct and economic flight route possible, which keeps their fuel costs down and is something we expect as customers. They were no different from any other international airline.”

Nearly 290 commercial flights continued to operate over the war zone, with only 10 diverted flight plans in recent weeks, according to EUROCONTROL. These included major airlines, including British Airways, Air France, and Lufthansa, who were among those using the same route over eastern Ukraine, according to FlightRadar24.
On Thursday, these also included a Singapore Airlines passenger plane that was flying just 15 miles away from Flight 17 when it was shot down, as well as 55 other civilian jets that flew through the war zone the same day, according to reports.

And experts say that if airlines avoided every war zone around the globe, flight times would be extended, requiring extra pilots as well as fuel – making certain routes too expensive for passengers. And since jets typically fly at higher altitudes over such regions, the risk of being targeted by sophisticated surface-to-air missiles is remote, experts say.

“There has never been an airliner shot down from a surface-to-air missile at this kind of altitude,” said John Cox, an air-safety consultant and former crash investigator

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0718/Malaysia-jet-tragedy-How-do-airlines-traverse-war-zones-video

that was quickly revoked. There is no evidence that neither the temporary nor present elected governments have sought to "punish" eastern Ukraine. They're trying to keep a foreign entity (Russia) from destabilizing select regions with goons, loons and drunks from the local populace and Russia itself. Ukraine barely has the ability to defend itself from this internal destabilization, but they've decided that they have to fight, or lose large chunks of territory. I don't blame them.

Even Western Ukrainians were beginning to protest the military actions against their own country, demanding their sons and daughters be returned home. So it seems the Kiev Govt doesn't have much support in Ukraine for their brutal war on their own people. That too was bound to happen, no one wants to see their children asked to fight their own people for what, to become indebted to the IMF?

And Ukraine has NATO on their side, so don't give me 'they can't defend themselves'. The warmongers are itching to get NATO involved, see Iraq, Afghanistan.

I believe that President Obama does not want this! That is why he is being attacked by morons like McCain and Cheney. It is up to US to support him NOT to be intimidated into yet another disastrous war, especially with Russia.

Who is using this terrible tragedy to make a case for war? McCAIN and all the usual suspects. Deja Vu, all over again.

you Putin apologist and lover of all things Putin....

the elected Rada voted the previous President out of office after he fled the country. Even his own party voted to replace him and have new elections in 90 days. And guess what they did have those elections.

he took days to calmly pack his treasures and loot.

notice how he had the movers check and carefully pack the best.

snipers to kill protesters, fled the country (military did not remove him) and was mostly never heard from again, given shelter in Russia. Thus the temporary and then elected new governments. Putin got sore about losing Russian control of Ukraine, took Crimea (and lied like a fucking psycho the whole time about it), and then had to hurry to destabilize regions in eastern Ukraine with his fighters and sympathetic locals, and hold "elections" declaring independence in those regions, before Ukraine could hold a legitimate national election. Ukraine isn't and will not be a member of NATO, NATO is ramping up to protect its current members from Russian aggression and destabilization. We have not placed any permanent new presence in NATO countries, despite their asking us to. No, this is not "US warmongers", even though we have some level of involvement--it's actually Putin, Europe, and Ukraine and their politics and interests that is driving the majority of the situation.

They were shut out in the fake election that came so quickly after.

Now they are strangers in a strange land governed by people far away in Kiev who hate how they voted.

Context and information are good things.

A lot of the east actually voted. Where they could not is where the armed Russians threatened poll workers with death, destroyed ballot boxes to prevent voting. Russia has provided heavy weapons and ADA pieces and the idiots they gave them to fucked up and now they are trying to hide the evidence as best they can. They will never get it all, although it appears the BUK systems have now moved back to their home country of Russia.

I just can not believe some of the utter bull being put out by the Putin apologists on this board.

one thing you said is right...

The Russians sent in troops to Crimea and stole it from a sovereign country they had a signed agreement with. They have been doing the same thing in the east, just slower. Ukraine had free and fair elections with international observers unlike the east. Russia has now banned some Tatar leaders from coming back to there homes, do you like those facts?

It was captured, which was reported in the Russian media.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5263031

civilian airliners and denies investigators access to the crash site while allowing wholesale looting of the dead, you mean.

Stop deflecting. It makes you look silly and desperate. Your pet thugs shot this airliner down and now they own that. Say goodbye to any legitimacy you may have imagined these fucknuts had.