shelling hospitals and children playing on beaches isn't "defence".

Your what if game is pathetic.

They WERE used to house terrorists and rocket launchers. Israel's not just going around blowing up shit at random; they're retaliating directly against the people who shot at them, as much as they possibly can.

IMO, Hamas is just as bad. If they accepted the cease fire, if they stopped shooting rockets, there would be no more innocent lives lost (although most of the casualties so far have been extremist militants). Israel could better serve themselves and mankind, though, if they stopped retaliating against Gaza and bought more Iron Dome defenses.

What we've got here is two bullshit governments squabbling, and two governments not giving a shit about the civilians dying.

you, you have to fight back somehow.

and comply with their obligations under international law, as they have signally failed to do since 1967. All this hand-waving and talking about "the right of Israel to defend itself" overlooks some of the underlying causes of Palestinian violence (yes, Hamas is a problem, but Israeli intransigence is also a problem).

and there is the comments from leaders, like in Iran, that want to destroy Israel off the face of the Earth.

Mote and beam, and all. And you know, "Hamas" is not "the Palestinian people"; it's not useful to conflate the two (any more than it is to conflate "the state of Israel" and "Zionism" with "the Jewish people&quot .

do about it?

again, this is pretty simple. I'm reminded of 19th century settlers in the US West decrying the savagery of Indians attacking wagon trains. After all, we'lre only stealing their land, why should they attack us?

Oh, wait, I don't hear that. Or at least, not against Israel.

especially the non muslim ones.

sarcasm off

do you want to do something about that? or do their lives not matter?

Nor do Afghanistan, or Pakistan. And Israel is an ethnic nationalist state that fundamentally discriminates against non-Jews in many ways, including through separate legal status; compared to Islamic fundamentalist states the difference is one of degree and not kind (see for instance the extreme right who want to force a loyalty oath "recognising the character of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state" on non-Jewish Israelis; would you support the efforts of an ethnic nationalist group in the USA to make immigrants sign onto something recognising the USA as a "Christian country"?)

unless you actually want to point to any direct connection between the situation between Israel and Palestine and the rise of Islamism in Iraq and Syria (it has a lot more to do with sectarian strife in Iraq, post-Saddam and post-US occupation, and with Assad in Syria, than anything else).

An "ethnic nationalist state" that is somehow uniquely "ethnic" and "nationalist." Unlike -- well, you get the idea.

Ireland, or Belgium, or Italy, or Greece, or Crete, or Spain, or Mexico, or Brazil, or Peru, or Egypt, or Turkey, or Russia, or Romania, or Hungary, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Sweden, or Denmark, or Portugal, or Poland, or Ukraine, or Bolivia, or Germany, or the Netherlands, or Finland, or the UAE, etc., etc. They're all just interchangeable American strip malls. Who knew?

which more than 2,530 rockets and mortar shells have been lobbed onto civilian areas over a year and a half. And "apartheid" always involves non-conditional relinquishment, including functional infrastructure, of the territory from which those rockets and mortar rounds were subsequently lobbed. You have a rather interesting (and transparent) set of definitions.

because "apartheid" is the proper definition of a state which maintains separate legal regimes and categories of citizenship based on ethnic status.

against Israel all have been around before post-saddam. these are all ignored. when Islamic terrorism strikes, it's like oh well things are complicated. let's look the other way. when a besieged country like Israel has the capability to fight back it's all about restraint and responsibility.

what about the Christians in ISIS territory that are being forced to flee their homes? do you have anything to say about them?

('straw man aside')

it points to exactly what I think about your arguments

seems to concern you.

.That's why bibi has chosen this moment in history to go for broke. He thinks this will fly under the radar given the current Shiite Sunni squabbles So he's ignoring Obama's call for calm and is flattening Gaza with the munitions we gave him. Some ally.

at this point a negotiated two-state solution is probably the only path to any kind of peace; a settlement of the question of the West Bank and Gaza Strip along with an Israeli withdrawal from the settlements (in exchange, probably, for negotiations with Syria for cession of the Golan Heights, or some sort of internationally-supervised DMZ along the Syria/Israel border, out of recognition for strategic Israeli security concerns) is probably the only way forward. The governments of Iran et al most likely recognise that the existence of Israel is an established and settled fact; resolution of the Palestinian issue by the establishment of a Palestinian state would do much to remove an ongoing source of Arab and Muslim grievance against Israel. The establishment of a Palestinian state would do more to weaken Hamas than anything Israel is capable of doing.

They've got Hezbollah allies in Lebanon who would certainly let them mobilize on the Israeli border if they wanted to. If they're planning on obliterating Israel, what's taking them so long?

without this, I would see them amassing an army to attack Israel. Iran and Iraq certainly fought violently.

Syria, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and everyone else have given up trying to invade Israel because they know they have zero chance of succeeding. How does giving the Palestinians a home change that?

that you don't remember BEFORE the settlements and West Bank occupation? Do you not realize that the predecessors of today's extremists have been promising to push Israel "into the sea" for 65 years?

as a justification for the Israeli version of Manifest Destiny, that's pretty weak, honestly. Especially considering that basically every instance of "renewed violence" over the past 20 years or so coincides with Israeli expansion of settlements.

by the rocket attacks

There HAVE been periods of time when Hamas and other groups refrained from targeting Israel. However, Israel continued to allow settlers to encroach into Palestinian land.

What would you have the Palestinians do? Continue to allow Israel to push them into smaller and smaller land, until there's literally nowhere for them to go but into the sea?

terrorism that started looooong before settlements were built. Being born yesterday is a convenient, but not very convincing excuse.

On top of that, its wrong.

King David Hotel.

We'll be waiting.

I still have heard any revulsion of what ISIS is doing to Christians not far from Gaza at all.

neither do I hear revulsion over rockets being fired at civilian territory inside Israel. Rockets from hamas are 'oh shucks' they must have a reason. 'no big deal'.

Israel announces where they're going to attack and then get blamed because the area was not deliberately evacuated.

at least as compared to israels arms?

get rid of the mosquito's around here. They're annoying.

to the old city. It was supposed to be an international zone under UN auspices. The Palestinian leadership rejected that long ago. On top of that the UN failed to defend the city, keep it international when Jordan invaded. They further failed to force Jordan out or have jordan open it to all people.

But other than that, yes Israel should withdraw the settlements in the West Bank and withdraw (unilaterally if need be) from about 99% of the west bank. If they are attacked from the WB after that, then they would declare war on Palestine, and do what needed to be done to stop attacks (just like what is happening in Gaza).

Hamas wants to destroy Israel and Jews. It does not want any Israel, only a Palestine from the River to the Sea. Israel is doing what it must to destroy Hamas's ability to wage war. It is a horror and tragedy that any civilians are dying, I think Israel needs to be even more careful than it is in limiting civilian casualties. (although Hamas would love to maximize civilian casualties on both sides. Palestinian casualties are used by them as propaganda against Israel, and Israeli casualties are what Hamas wants)


Hamas and IJ will never allow Israel peace, their charters call for Israels destruction.

considering that their occupation of East Jerusalem is not legal under international law (and post-WWII international law does not recognise right of conquest). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem

Jordan, who annexed the entire WB after the 1948 war? the UN?

Technically it would be the UN, but the UN long ago abrogated its claim over the city, by failing to defend it against Jordan, or take any action against Jordan to free it. Jordan has since taken back their annexation of the WB and Jerusalem.

the opening line of your link says

There are differing legal and diplomatic positions on Jerusalem held within the international community. Scholars are divided over the legal status of Jerusalem under international law

the unilateral Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem is not recognised by anyone (how many countries have embassies in Jerusalem? That would be...none.)

Israel would share control over the old city, with neither side having political offices in the old city.

There is no way in hell Israel will ever give up control over the wailing wall and the area around it.

Right now Israel has political control over the entire old city, with the various religions controlling their holy sites.

I fail to see why this is a problem.

because a) Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem; b) Israel passed a law declaring "united Jerusalem" the capital of Israel.

...sick people and children. What if they were used to heal? What if we decide not to condone the bombing of hospitals and schools?

This 'what if' thing is not reality. "What if" I won the lottery? Speculation is not useful.

You asked, what if Israel was unable to defend themselves. They aren't. You could spend an eternity saying 'what if'. It doesn't change anything.

FWIW, if Israel couldn't defend themselves, we'd be expected to.

The IDF has killed over a hundred children to 'get to the terrorists'. They have killed mostly civilians. They bomb schools and kill children and miss the 'bad' guys. There are children with their faces blown and it was the IDF that blew those children's faces off. There are dead mothers and fathers and their children dead by the hundreds, killed to get to terrorists. I would never kill a child to get to a bad guy. That would make ME the bad guy.

If somebody killed your child to get to some bad guy that you do not even KNOW, would you still feel the same way? Would you bomb a hospital knowing that 99% of the people inside are innocent civilians just to get to one 'possible' bad guy? I wouldn't.

my brothers and uncles to stop lobbing missiles into Israel. When 3 Israeli teens were killed by state actors - who were celebrated rather than punished - Israel went after the perpetrators, it didn't start lobbing missiles. But when a non-state actor - who was captured and remanded - killed 1 Palestinian teen, missiles started flying.

And the indignation delegation flew into action on DU. Shame! I know most of you have no knowledge of the 65 years of constant terrorism and war that Israel has been subjected to, but you should at least remember what happened 2 weeks ago!

Would you bomb a school to get to a missile? Would you bomb a hospital full of injured people to get to a bad guy?

If they are trying to take out hamas, why are they killing children and mothers? Those children aren't lobbing missiles. Why should we support the people bombing children? Because hamas? How many children would you kill to get to a tunnel? I am thinking none.

Funny how the good guy can turn into the bad guy when they start killing innocent people. Remember that movie Falling Down? Israel is Michael Douglass in that movie right now. They kill children on a beach because they identified those kids kicking a soccer ball as Hamas. How many other innocent civilians have the misidentified as Hamas? Over a hundred dead children, killed by grown IDF soldiers. Dozens of babies wrapped in funeral shrouds, killed by the right wing Israeli government. How can i support men and women who think nothing of the babies they just killed? Hamas is not killing babies during this operation, Israel is killing children by the dozens. I empathize with the dead, not their killers..

are the Palestinians shelling?

Israel is more than capable of defending itself. Israel's problem is it always uses "defending itself" as an excuse for land grabs and brutal collective punishment.

Israel is surrounded by countries that want to destroy it. Rockets were fired into Israel for weeks before there was a response.

Israel has been in a tizzy since Hamas and the Palestinian Authority agreed to try to form a unity government.

Israel has not abided by previous cease fire agreements and keeps Gaza as an open air concentration camp.

Israel used the excuse of the murder of the three Israeli boys to impose collective punishment on Palestinians and round up hundreds of Hamas members.

Then the rockets started flying.

It is of no more value than the old, "if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle."

should be voted down.

I refuse to take sides t in this war but I hear some on this board talk about the treatment of Native Americans by Europeans as if it was one of our darkest times yet never any mention of the treatment of Palestinians by Europeans.

rule the whole ME lives by.

And not afraid to kill innocent Palestinians.

which it is not.

Which would be genocide, immediate and total, of every Jewish man, woman, and child, and of course, the Christians as well without hesitation.

What???? Not the Christians...!!! What did THEY ever do to THEM!!?

and nonsensical situation where israel is the victim?

or maybe you can and you just do not care.

Israel is armed to the teeth because she only gets ONE LOST WAR...unlike your BFF's over there who get to declare unending war on her and get to do it over and over and over again without condemnation or finality.

that israel is fighting the entire wroth of the middle east does not make it true.

and also lol at the BFF usage.

Why...you are absolutely right! I've just been asleeep dreaming about all these wars since 1948, not to mention the sidebar fever-dreaming of terrorist attacks, kidnaps, assassination attempts, the Munich Olympics, Iran's sworn destruction of the country, Syria - what nice folks are running THAT little country, right?, all of it.

with a population that has no where to flee to.

and you are no dope.

If Israel loses a war, she and her population would be annihilated. Hamas has sworn that it will carry that out.

There are Israeli politicians who say the same thing about palestinians. I would never kill hundreds of children to get to a bad guy. That would make me evil.

Yes, if Israel couldn't defend itself, children would get slaughtered, hospitals would get blown up, people would get rounded up and forced to live in concentration camp-like conditions.

Would be a war crime, wouldn't it?

No, I'm no dope.

There would be wholesale indiscriminate slaughter.

Last edited Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's something more serious than the OP:

http://972mag.com/how-can-you-possibly-oppose-this-war/93924/

By Dahlia Scheindlin |Published July 19, 2014
How can you possibly oppose this war?
Someone asked me an innocent question: “What is the position of Israelis who are against the war?”

There are obvious answers.

First, this is a disproportionate war that harms huge numbers of civilians. The IDF is bombarding an area that it has already imprisoned by occupation from 1967, and then through suffocating border, movement, import and export control since 2007. Its residents have been stateless since 1948. It is attacking by air, land and sea, while Hamas attacks civilians in Israel through rockets and now through terrorist infiltration, at an increasingly frenzied pace.

Right-wing nationalists attacking left wing activists during a protest in center Tel Aviv against the Israeli attack on Gaza, July 12, 2014. The protest ended with the nationalists attacking a small group of left-wing activists with little police interference. Three activists injured and one right-wing person arrested. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)
Right-wing nationalists attacking left wing activists during a protest in center Tel Aviv against the Israeli attack on Gaza, July 12, 2014. The protest ended with the nationalists attacking a small group of left-wing activists with little police interference. Three activists injured and one right-wing person arrested. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)
Second, escalation breeds escalation. The south of Israel has not been at peace for a decade, but in this war, the whole country is under attack. And “Protective Edge” made things even worse for the south; all the Israel casualties so far – as of today two civilian deaths, numerous wounded (including children) and one soldier killed – have been in the south. “Code Red” warnings in Sderot all these years were awful, but death is worse. On a good day, there is suffering in Gaza; now the death and destruction there is indescribable.

Third, most of the stated goals of the war seem impossible to fulfill. Israeli Foreign Minister Liberman’s blustery call to take down Hamas is hot air, unless Israel wants to full-out occupy Gaza (it doesn’t) or watch even more extreme groups take over. Destroying the “infrastructure of terror” also falls apart upon close inspection, since, as I have heard some say, “you can’t kill an idea.” The stated goal of the ground operation is to destroy tunnels into Israel where terrorists have tried to infiltrate over the last few days (following the air war). I certainly support preventing terrorists from reaching Israel. But tunnels can be destroyed, as many of the Rafah ones were by Egypt late last year, without going to war.

Fourth, the political and social consequences of the war will be a disaster in the short, medium and long term. In the short term, Hamas could easily become stronger, having become the defiant face of military resistance against Israel as diplomacy crumbles.

MORE AT LINK

The Israelis have been pedaling that irrational paranoia for decades. I will admit that after all the violence the Israeli occupation has done to the Palestinians, there would no doubt be a lot of bloody retribution if Israel were somehow disarmed.

But the religious play just doesn't hold water with respect to the Palestinians. It is Israel's good fortune that the Palestinians are sensible people and not religious fundamentalists. The Palestinians have, remarkably, resisted the call of radical Islam.

The Palestinians could and have lived side by side with other religions in relative harmony. The Israelis have so poisoned the well, though, through their brutal occupation that it will take a long time for the Palestinians to forgive and forget.

Go ahead...your turn.

and attempting to destroy Hamas killers hiding behind defenseless civilians if it sat on your face.

And I know sickening Zionist apologia when I hear it.

Israel will go the way of that other racist apartheid state.

their lives mean less than the innocents in Gaza?

They are paying for Israel to put hundreds of innocent people in their graves.

the Christians there.

Innocent Palestinians are getting killed. That is a tragedy.

but to say Israel is doing it purposely is unfair.

The evidence is right before your eyes. Open them.

And if they're not doing it on purpose, their military commanders need to fired for incompetence. And then taken to the Hague.

"but to say Israel is doing it purposely is unfair."

who are the terrorists targeting?

what were the Hamas rockets trying to hit?

not to get at "terrorists", but just for the sake of destroying infrastructure.

And there is no possible way that they are not in some cases deliberately targeting civilians, which makes them either morons or sadists, you choose.

but it was reported (on CBC here in Canada today) that people were told by Israel to evacuate TO the hospitals. Then they shelled them. Unreal. Clearly deliberate.

them all off of it.

I don't know what their Coup de grâce will be, but my guess is that they will continue to terrorize them as viciously and ruthlessly as possible, then eventually open a border or offer some escape route, and corral them off of the land completely.