The book is absolute dreck, but every act was consensual.

And there has to be some reason there are so many BDSM people pissed off about it. Google turns up tons of articles to that effect.

the BDSM community hates that book.....because it is so fucking, laughably bad. Hell...I'd be pissed if that was how my community was portrayed to vanilla America.

You know the difference between porn and erotica??

Someone, as usual, is shown not to be the expert they think they are.

Crickets....

If you bothered to read, I made clear I didn't read the book. And I actually went to sleep, as offensive as you may find that. Last thing I heard, you carried a grudge from two years ago because you said I criticized you for not responding to a post of yours quickly enough, and here you are indicting me for the same thing.

As it turns out there are at least different versions of the book. It may be entirely possible the paperback version has been "cleaned up" for public consumption.

You haven't been here two years.

for the truth.

It's starting to look like the mass paperback version differs from the original online fantiction version, which I believe what the linked website critiques.

There are a number of articles about BDSM critiques. They do not focus on it being "too vanilla" but on the lack of proper care by the dom for the well-being of his sub, the lack of after care, his portrayal as a personal psychologically damaged through abuse.

Here are some examples.

But, most annoyingly, the story demonises BDSM – the term for the erotic style comprising bondage, domination, and sado-masochism – and those who enjoy it. The male protagonist, Christian Grey, is portrayed as a cold-hearted sexual predator with a dungeon (that word has been wisely swapped for "playroom&quot , full of scary sex toys. Worst of all is the implication that his particular erotic style has developed because he is psychologically "sick". . . .

Grey's lack of competency in his chosen erotic arena is most apparent, though, in the way he fails to assess his potential new submissive's naivety. Experienced BDSM practitioners are acutely aware of the gulf between cognoscenti and others, and would not dream of terrifying a novice by bringing up such advanced techniques as fire, electricity and gynaecological play.

Ten years ago, I carried out an extensive psychological study of people in the BDSM community – the largest empirical study ever done at the time – to examine their psychological attributes and determine if there was any justification for the notion, commonly held, even within my field, that they were all psychologically disturbed. After giving each of the 132 participants four hours of psychological tests, as well as a face-to-face interview, I found that, in fact, the group was generally not mentally unhealthy, and the instances of early abuse that had long been associated with the adult practice of BDSM were present in just a few.

Oh well.

I have too much respect for the English language to contribute to its defilement. The excerpts were terrifying enough.

reading the source material, you haven't been able to correctly identify the participants.

My point, as the OP makes clear, is to clarify the point that those objecting to the film and movie are not objecting to consensual sexual activity but rape, or at least what they believe to be rape. So the strawman OPs posted yesterday that critics seek to control the private lives of consenting adults is false.

that is so common in the generation of climate science denial and "women have a way of shutting that whole thing down." I am sorry you find education and research to be so offensive. I wish I could say I was surprised. No wonder you are so taken with this particular work of "literature."

has demonstrated on this board that she can speak, read, and write multiple languages...iincluding a few dead ones.

50 Shades is dreck, but it is thoroughly so-bad-it's-good dreck, like Sharknado, that the idea that anyone would take it seriously enough to expend academic time on it is mind boggling.

Pseudo-intellectual analysis of low culture may resonate with you, but I find that certain cultural phenomena are best explained in the same milieu. In other words..Dave Barry did a fantastic job reviewing, analyzing, and explaining 50 shades; anyone searching for anything more high brow is just being a pretentious twit.

There is a rape, but not what you are thinking. It happens to be the main male...paper thin character who was raped as a young boy by an older woman. Paper thin is really giving him more heft than he has by the by.

The sex acts between the two main characters are consensual. I use the word character with trepidation since both are so badly written and developed it is not even worthy of a first year creative writing class with a student who has never, ever written fiction before it matters little what genre the student decides to write. Yes, it is that bad.

I understand why you are reluctant to read it...but in this factual thing you are actually wrong, and so are many journals if you are getting that from journals like everything else, this scene is so badly written it leads to...at least for me, not caring what happens to the "characters."

If those journals are doing this, they are misrepresenting the book, which would be a crime back when I was still involved in Academia. So perhaps these academics did not read this material either. Help me with the word here, academic ffffrrraaauuud I think

Of course, why would this be worthy of academic pursuit is a good question...though the first chapter has more don't do this if you intend to write, than I can count. This book became a commercial success due to the controversy. It has no redeeming quality as writing goes otherwise. So step away from the reviews, buck up, and read the primary source if you really think this is worthy of actual research.

activists, and academics chapter by chapter.

I read some of the books, and as importantly, I read much of the criticism which contains extensive contents of the book and detailed analysis.

The book is nothing but a depiction of a very disturbed abuser and the victim of that abuse. Christian not only reveals classic signs of an abuser, has nearly all of them. From stalking, to violent threats, to mood swings, to irrational jealousy. In one chapter, even though Ana has not been allowed to negotiate her needs and desires in the relationship, Grey spanks her anyway holding her down so she could not escape. She clearly states that she wants to say no but decides not to because she does not to make Christian angry. It was an experience that she did not enjoy.

There is quite a bit of criticism from feminists about the abuse and criticism from the BDSM community on how 50 Shades is all wrong.

If you are interested, you can start here:

http://jennytrout.blogspot.ca/2012/05/50-shades-and-abusive-relationships.html

Jenny Trout is a sub and chronicles the abuse, both domestic and sexual, chapter by chapter.

Or you can read Alexis chapter by chapter chronicling of the abuse here: http://50shadesofabuse.wordpress.com/abuse-in-50-shades-of-grey/

Here is another from Peter Tupper, a researcher, historian, and participant in the BDSM community, chronicling the abuse and gross misrepresentations of BDSM. Again chapter by chapter. http://historyofbdsm.com/about-the-author/

Here is another member of the BDSM community giving a chapter by chapter analysis of the abuse and gross misrepresentations in the book. http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/p/fifty-shades-of-grey-index.html

Ohio State University conducted a study of the book and details instances of emotional abuse and nonconsensual sexual violence.

Their results:

After seeing the fire here. Because, quite frankly, this much thick black smoke, that fire is hot...we are talking several alarms worth.

Please, read it yourself. Stop with the journals until you read it

In reality it should have staid in fanfic, where those themes are common. Hell I read decades ago some of that crap (yes, it is crappy writing) in fiction writing groups that was far better written that went nowhere commercially and had better written and developed characters. Yes, you read a lot of crap in those groups and genres you would never read otherwise.

This is, quite frankly, to be kind, a 500 page first draft of a badly developed piece of work that somehow jumped to mainstream. I suspect part of the reason is the attention given to it, and controversy sells. I use the words written work with trepidation, but it has very little to redeem it as literature...

But it is what it is, and cannot wait for the raging wild fire when the movie premieres. I guess I will have to watch it, since likely it will be a commercial success. I just hope the movie improves the heft of the characters from paper thin, best case to somewhat developed. Yup, it is also that media thing, and ix know I am way late to the party. Yup, was under a rock.

I can see, reading the actual material, how this has a sub group of feminist scholars all kinds of angry, but instead of telling us about the domineering Christian Grey, which he is, and that is all he is, rather ask why are women chiefly attracted to this sexual fantasy? Now that, if you must, is the question I would be asking...but that is, once again, after reading the primary source (and I still have ways to go)

Oh and as far as Ana, I read in a history class one of the earliest porn books ever written...those characters were submissive (Victorian era,) they were very assertive compared to Ana, who is a unidimensional 12 year old in the body of an older person. Her inner though process, book is first person, is that of a teen, crap, crap, crap...holy crap.

Forgive me for not remembering the name of that book...I made a point to forget it after class was over...it was that badly written, in comparison to this that was some stellar writing.

But anybody who wants to discuss this...should actually read it...something about primary sources and due diligence.

Though, it is stellar easy reading when sick. Trust me, can't do the County's climate action plan right now.

But my inner writer is gnashing teeth. This actually is a commercial success...glad I did not pay full price for this...

This is quite possibly the worst piece of writing I have ever read that has been published, oh and the sex is that badly written too.

So I will ask, what made this such a success? My going theory is...controversy. Hell, that is the only reason I bought it.

from the other two. Don't ignore that fact. I do not need to read the ridiculous entire series to recognize what I am reading. (Similarly, I do not have to watch every episode of South Park to recognize it is juvenile shit.)

From those readings, it was quite clear that; 1) Christian is an abuser, and 2) Ana exhibits the accommodating behaviors to abide the abuse.

The "journals" are an important contribution to the dialog of the sexualization of domestic and sexual violence.

As for asking why women cannot recognize an abused woman? Because relationships like this are normalized. The "troubled man only needs the fixin' of a good and patient woman." A man, who of course, was destroyed by other women/an.

As for it's popularity, certainly, there were black minstrels that performed and contributed to stereotypes created by whites. This has been true of all oppressed people in the U.S. The U.S. Indian who was willing to say, "how." The Pacific Asian who was willing to don buck teeth.

These stereotypes were minimized and largely abolished in the U.S., first by members of the oppressed and then joined by allies in the oppressor class.

I am seeing a rise of "angry" feminists (what a weird way to depict those who object to emotional abuse and nonconsensual sexual violence - I prefer to refer to feminists as resolute, clear headed, adamant about promoting their own agency) with such actions as #everydaysexim.

I noticed that you did not address the criticism from the "angry" BDSM community.

In the body of an adult who is taken advantage of.

She also expects something in return. What is never clear, nor are Christian's goals clear either, outside of one thing. He is also paper thin.

Having met and worked with real abused, scared shitless women, the author does not develop that. Not one bit, not at all. It is not even cardboard, maybe pretty thin paper.

This is so shallow and badly written that I would not be using it as the example to normalize this. This is truly not your textbook example. There are far better examples of this to be honest. All this controversy is doing is making money for the author, because it is so badly written it should have sunk into the deep recesses of fandom.


Now the Twilight trilogy is a tad better at that, and actually with higher influence with the age most likely to absorb the message. You know this is read by adults, mostly women who fantasize right? Sometimes people should just let things sink back into the ooze.

every encounter with Christian, she cries. FYI, I am a real survivor of abuse. I have counseled survivors. What we are seeing with Ana, is her rationalizing her abuse WHICH IS WHAT EVERY ABUSED WOMAN DOES until they capitulate or walk out. Ana capitulates. She frets about his moods and tries to mitigate them. She frets about his anger and adjusts her behavior to avoid it. She submits to his hitting her, EVEN WHEN SHE WANTS TO SAY NO, in order not to invoke his anger. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ABUSED WOMAN DO.

The author does not develop abuse because she writes it as it is a normal course of a relationship. In fact, the author has dissed domestic violence survivors' outreach to her. She told them to fuck off.

I would not have bought it if it wasn't for the fire here. I am sure many people who actually bought it did due to the controversy.

Oh and that internal dialogue precedes her meeting of this cartoon. They are both cartoons of very real life, and not even good cartoons.

I will repeat this, I said it somewhere else, the author could not get a better marketing campaign if she tried.

I am sorry for your experience and I would not tell you to read it if I knew that. I can see how this very badly piece of trash (I am being kind here) can launch triggers. So my apology for that.

But seriously, all this is promoting this book. It is not normalizing anything...for that, there are far better examples.

oppressing.

That is what you take.

Nothing I can do about that.

At this point. Horses, barn, come to mind.

But if that is all you get out of the discussion. Well then.

I admit, I bought a piece of terrible writing, that is fanfic, nothing more, because of controversy.

By definition that would include negotiation and safe words. Can't think of any. Only in the fanfic universe do such portrayals exist.

It would be censored, deservedly or not.

My cousin's Master's thesis is on sexual deviance, and it is a very good bit of academic work. Boring as Hell, though.

"It’s true that the physical pain Anastasia endures in the books is by her own consent, so much so that before he spanks her for the first time Grey hands her a contract. Will she agree to being tied up, to being whipped, to being caned? And those other possibilities, including the use of clamps in places we won’t discuss. You get the picture. This is presented as a negotiation, and Ana exercises her prerogatives, crossing out some activities she deems as nonnegotiable. One of the questions on the contract: “How much pain is the Submissive (Ana) willing to experience?” This is to be judged on a scale from one to five."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/crime/2012/06/23/is-fifty-shades-of-grey-dangerous/

She dumps him because he gets pleasure from hurting her and she doesn't like it. She crying and snotting. She felt manipulated into accepting the abuse to keep him around. She wants affection but all she gets is pain. She tells him what a fucked up person he is. In the beginning of the next book he keeps trying to contact her and she gives in. When asked why she didn't use the safe word, she say's she forgot. Her mind blanked out and she forgot how to stop the abuse. He gets pissed at her for forgetting and she apologizes continuously. Then he chips her phone to track her movements. The book is stupid.

It's like attacking a sea slug. It's only because it's made millions that anyone's paying attention to it.

The funny thing is, I've met EL James. She seems like a perfectly nice, perfectly normal, perfectly decent woman. She just has a weird imagination.

I stick to asoiaf fanfic myself. Some of it is absurd. Much of it is much better than this, it's just that they're not nearly so long. The length made it so noticeably and the sex. She changed it a bit before she published it. And she says Vanilla about a thousand times. I write better sex scenes. I may just have to start publishing my short fics as erotica and get my million. I'm sure i could get through one every few days and die rich. Never knew there was so much money in erotica. I'm just jealous that suck sucky writing got noticed and i hate controlling abusive men. He loves hurting her and gives her aspirin and arnica cream after beatings. Creepy.

happens in chapter 12. While they went over the contract in chapter 11, she didn't sign it until chapter 14.

as some claim I have done.

he suddenly materializes in her bedroom doorway without anyone having let him in.

The man is a stalking abuser, consent or no consent. I think you will be interested in this:

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/jwh.2013.4344

Intimate partner violence patterns
Our results distill the abuse patterns across Christian and Anastasia's 4-week relationship in the first novel, concentrating first on underlying emotional abuse patterns, and then on how the emotional abuse affects Anastasia, and culminating with a description of example sexual encounters that meet the CDC's sexual violence definition.63 We begin by discussing emotional abuse, because this type of abuse permeates all chronically violent partnerships, including nearly every interaction of Christian and Anastasia's relationship; the underlying emotional abuse in Christian and Anastasia's relationship also sets the stage for sexual violence to occur. To remain consistent with literary convention, we describe events in the present tense; “actual dialogue” between Christian and Anastasia is represented using italics and quotations, and Anastasia's “inner dialogue” is in quotations only.

Emotional/psychological abuse
Christian controls all aspects of the couple's relationship using the emotional abuse tactics of stalking, isolation, intimidation/threats, and humiliation.63 Emotional abuse begins immediately after the couple's first meeting when Anastasia interviews Christian for her college's newspaper, and continues through the couple's last interaction in the novel. Below we review three emotional abuse scenes; in each scene, the various types of emotional abuse co-occur and overlap, as is typically seen in abusive relationships.1,2 As an important caveat before describing the emotional abuse scenes, while BDSM can include power and pain exchanges outside of the bedroom (such as ordering a partner to eat or threatening to punish/harm), typically such exchanges involve consenting parties (those who have agreed to the power exchange) and those who have worked out an egalitarian process for negotiating such power exchanges.46–48 Within Christian and Anastasia's relationship, consent and egalitarian negotiation processes are not formally decided, and Christian uses a range of coercive strategies to control multiple aspects of Anastasia's behavior; as we will document, Christian's coercive control significantly erodes Anastasia's identity.

Emotional abuse example 1
Within a week after Christian and Anastasia's introduction during an interview Anastasia conducts with Christian for her college's newspaper, and without any additional form of communication, Christian stalks Anastasia, by “appearing” at Anastasia's place of employment, an independent hardware store located in Portland—173 miles from their original encounter in Seattle. As Christian asks Anastasia to help him locate various “odd items,” such as cable ties, masking tape, and rope, his “confusing double talk” (p. 29) and questions about “what else he might need” for his “do-it-yourselfer” home improvement project (p. 28) creates feelings of embarrassment and humiliation in Anastasia. Christian does not stop his innuendo after Anastasia's body shows physiological signs of embarrassment, including a “recurring blush” and cheeks the color of the “Communist Manifesto” (p. 27–28). During this interaction, Anastasia even has the “uncanny feeling [Christian] is laughing at [her]” (p. 27). Midway through the hardware store encounter, Christian's mood changes suddenly from “friendly” to “cold and distant” when Anastasia says hello to a male colleague; Christian “watches [Anastasia] like a hawk, his eyes hooded, his mouth a hard impassive line…his tone becomes clipped and cool…” (p. 30–31). In response to Christian's abrupt mood change, Anastasia worries “Damn…have I offended him” and attempts to “diffuse the antagonism” by introducing Christian to her male colleague (p. 30–31). Christian's anger and withdrawal during the hardware store interaction set the stage for future isolation of Anastasia from friends and family—specifically, his anger/withdrawal over Anastasia talking to a male colleague is an intimidation/threat intended to induce her withdrawal from connections with others. Later in the novel, after returning home from a night out with her friends, Anastasia finds an e-mail, five missed calls, and a voice message, in which Christian warns that she needs “to learn to manage [his] expectations” and he is not a “patient man” (p. 304). Anastasia panics in response and calls him immediately to express herself: “Double crap. Will he ever give me a break… He is suffocating me. With a deep dread uncurling in my stomach, I scroll down to his number and press ‘call’…He'd probably like to beat seven shades of shit out of me. The thought is depressing.” p. 304–305). As will be documented later, Anastasia begins to withhold information about her social whereabouts and her travel plans to visit her mother to avoid Christian's anger and ensuing consequences—a behavioral pattern that is pervasive in victims involved abusive relationships.60–62

And in fact someone who practices BDSM said downthread that the reputation in that community is that the book in facts depicts abuse and thus gives them a bad name.

Seriously? And The Journal of Women's Health actually published it? Even more frightening, someone actually allocated GRANT monies to research it? At least they did not completely insult my intelligence as a researcher and give it a p-value or do a regression analysis. I wonder if the research will be peer-reviewed.


What is next? Was Superman's fight with Lex Luthor self-defense under current Stand Your Ground Laws???

And speaking of Superman, what kind of Bizarro World Bullshit is all of this? It is a work of fiction on par with Bigfoot porn.

What do you suppose that field is if not analysis of literary characters?
Macbeth, Lear, Ahab, Ishmael? Certain one would be hard pressed to call this thing literature, but it seems like the typical fare for cultural studies and gender studies.

With this kind of hostility toward research and knowledge, no wonder the US educational system is falling behind.

But thanks for playing!

I only publish in journals myself.

Personally, I am a smokejumper, but next week I might be an astronaut. I haven't decided yet.

But a valid line with those two is how the characters have changed since their creation to reflect changing cultural values.

Or how the big mouse was used during WW 2 for propaganda. Those I can understand. Hell, the X-men and their place in the civil rights narrative (mutants is ok, blacks and Latinos not so much, and yes it's been explored)

This...some will defend it, but this got researched because it jumped into mainstream. There are much better written pieces in Erotica that have not. If they must, I want them to explore the whole field, starting in the 19th century, not just a really crappy books which some here deep in the discussion have not even read.

Controversy and the money it's made, is the reason we are talking about it.

Safewords should have been her right from the moment she knew they existed and respected if they'd been used prior, not "granted" by some silly contract.

The guy in the UK who thought a contract gave him permission to keep beating his wife when she'd had enough learned a contract doesn't protect the Dom from anything legally, and if couples are going to write out their negotiations they need to know it's strictly for their own benefits, not that such contracts have any legal authority.

They do not give one single fuck.

These people read the book, see? And they declare this to be not rape.

Several DUers now have insisted that they read it and that what you and I and anyone else who actually gives a shit thinks, that there is no rape or abuse or bad non-consensual sex in the book.

This is the state of things.

On a liberal message board.

I have lost all respect I ever had for so many people.

Most of all those who so willingly muddy the waters of these discussions. Pretending the issue is consensual sex and not RAPE AND DOMESTIC ABUSE.

This is a very stupid book about two twits having sexual congress in ways that are supposed to be titillating. I've read more imaginative fanfic on MySpace.

Here is what I find offensive about your post: you seem to deny agency to the submissive in the relationship. Why negate agency to a whole class of people?

which is a question worth examining. And, we can examine it without judging those who participate in it. I like a bit of it myself, but that doesn't mean I can't try to understand why I like it.

It is problematic to me that so many women are aroused by the way submission is depicted in this book. It bothers me that I find a certain level of submission arousing as well. What does this tell us about our culture? What does this tell us about patriarchy?

People who are arguing that judging this book somehow equates with judging the people who get off via BDSM is just silly. We are allowed to take any book or movie, critique it (including examining how it relates to the culture that produces it or reads it), and, yes, we are allowed to say whether we find the themes of it troubling. That doesn't mean the ones critiquing are the sex police or prudes. It means we are thinking people.

As an undergrad, my class was discussing The Da Vinci Code. My professor said the question was not if Dan Brown was a good writer, but what it was that drew so many people to the book. What can of worms did Brown open with that novel? It is worth examining because it tells us things we need to know about our culture.

The same thing can be said of Fifty Shades. Why are women aroused by it? Why would anybody get off on causing pain? What does that tell us about ourselves? Does the popularity of BDSM tell us anything about our culture? Does that in turn tell us what might need to change?

We can and should ask all these questions without being called prudes or the sex police. It's what intelligent people do and I hope it is what people that call themselves progressives would especially do.

I believe it is more instinctual. Most mammal females are instinctually submissive. Humans like to believe we have evolved out of animal instinct, reading the news with instinct in mind often makes the stories more understandable imo.

Last edited Tue Jul 29, 2014, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)

other species of mammals is valid way to make any sort of accurate determination of motivations for human behavior.

To wit...

I have that same question. And it's not going to stop anyone from doing what they want. I don't get liking pain and think there could be something wrong there.

There are right wing women, who "consent" to female submission in general - that does not make it OK or right. So these women who claim they want men to hurt them in the bedroom raises a similar type of question.

I prefer my partner to take a more active role. I like them to express their wants, because I like to give pleasure. I also like sensation-play, and for the realm of non-painful sensation to be explored -- I am the one getting pleasure most of the time.

But it's very telling how so many people are trying to genderize this. What about gay or lesbian couples who practice BDSM? Why must a person's private sexual practices somehow be a commentary on everyday life, or somehow be expected to affect everyday life?

If you don't understand it, admit you don't understand it, and perhaps seek out understanding, instead of passing judgment.

when it comes to actual pain, that is. I can't help but question if that's an indication of low self esteem or something worse. Like I said, that question doesn't stop what other people do. I'd just like to be sure they don't have some other problem where they think they deserve to be harmed - social or psychological. Pain is an indicator of something wrong, not to be sought out. I don't judge them in the way you are thinking, I'm more worried about them. And then there are sometimes accidents and people get killed.

Now, not everyone enjoys those endorphins enough to want to try to get to "subspace", the state where those endorphins are flooding the body. And for me, I've not tried it on the receiving end, because my skin is too delicate. But when a gentleman asked me to flog him, he achieved orgasm from it. (Edit to add: I didn't, obviously... not really my cup of tea, but I aim to please.)

It reminds me of a cousin who almost OD'd on heroin. We asked how it could be worth it, and he said you feel that good on heroin that it's worth the risk.

I've always been conservative with myself and willing to give up feeling extremely good if there were risks, so that explains me. Not even willing to get on carnival rides as the "thrill" of going fast doesn't seem worth the risk of fear, nausea and the admittedly rare chance of something going wrong and getting hurt. Or jumping from an airplane with a parachute. Auto-erotic asphyxiation bother me too, no matter how good it may feel can it be worth the risk? Some people are not like me there.

Listen to this it'll put you in the mood!

I won't deny that some people who might be into it to recreate abuse from childhood, or something else that might be unhealthy. If that's why you find yourself aroused by it, a therapist is going to help far more than an internet discussion board.

But just because it bothers you doesn't mean it bothers me.

Hers post is a thoughtful engagement in the subject matter. She didn't say it had to bother you. In fact she specifically said her intent was not to judge but understand.

And yes, that's exactly what I'd tell anyone, if they were aroused by something that made them feel uncomfortable. I'm not a sex therapist, but there are some great ones out there.

Edit to add: Her reasons for liking it, and mine, may be totally different. Not everyone is the same and nor everyone has the same motivations for the reason they enjoy something in the bedroom. Trying to ask "why women like BDSM" is like asking "Why do women laugh"? Each woman is going to give a different answer, and not just women laugh so it's silly to ask why only women enjoy something. There are many male submissives, and their psychology isn't as simplistic as many would like to make it out to be, either.

I am prone to self-examination. As a feminist, finding male dominance arousing raises lots of questions in my head. Questions I certainly won't apologize for or feel the need to justify.