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stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 03:04 PM Aug 2014

It's time to decriminalize the buying and selling of sex

as the victimless crime that it is.

There are of course "invisible" victims of such business relationships, as there are other of the now legal and illegal kind. Take those victims the bartender never sees, or the local drug dealer for example. The former is no longer a crime, and the latters "victimless crime" designation applies ONLY to the participants in the deal, because it's mutually beneficial.

It's really as simple as doing a pro/con list on the matter. This of course requires objectivity that moral purists http://legalize-prostitution.com/benefits-of-legalizing-prostitution lack, who should be excluded from the discussion or debate if that's all they can bring to the table.

Imo the benefits of legalization outweigh the drawbacks of maintaining its illegality. Feel free to argue with the authors here http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html#effects http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/legalizing-prostitution-brings-protection-and-better-care http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html#effects for starters, and concluding with

The researchers warn that due to the clandestine nature of both trafficking and prostitution markets, their analysis had to rely on the best available existing data on reported human trafficking inflows. That legalised prostitution increases human trafficking inflows is likely, but cannot be proven with available evidence. The researchers also note that other reasons might speak against prohibiting prostitution despite its impact on human trafficking.

The article concludes: “The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes—at least those legally employed—if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”

http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2012/12/Legalised-prostitution-increases-human-trafficking.aspx


given that the increase in trafficking appears to be what seems to be of most concern to those not the simple moral purist who has trouble with sex outside of marriage period, whether paid for or not. Legalizing prostitution doesn't legalize human trafficking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking much as legalizing alcohol as an intoxicant didn't legalize a host of other intoxicants or spare them from criminalization. It became legal again because the pro-list outgrew the con-list where the HT consideration resides in this controversy. HT and prostitution similarities begin and end with the sex that they share, other than the similar conditions that a pimp might subject his "victims" to that legalization would go a long way towards eliminating.

Just don't mention the facts about teenage, etc, prostitution, http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/08/02/teen-prostitution-in-america/ because one of them might mistake you for a participant in such, because as we know, to the dishonest and desperate merely noting the facts in this particular matter, as it has been in others, is tantamount to support, advocacy, if not being guilty of the crime of being involved in such. But quite frankly, I think all the issues involved are too many and complicated for that type to wrap their little minds around, so they too should be excluded from this "debate". What many of would consider common knowledge , like this

In some ways, it's simply part of a kid's natural journey toward independence. But child development experts say that physical and behavioral changes that would have been typical of teenagers decades ago are now common among "tweens" — kids ages 8 to 12.http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15905527/ns/health-childrens_health/t/new-kids-grow-faster/


they remain ignorant of. Once upon a time I had a particularly stupid person charge me with pedophilia advocacy for merely suggesting that this might lead to some confusion on the part of the non-pedophile as age limits define pedophilia legally, and who mighta thought they were merely soliciting an underage teenage girl. Both of these things are of course unacceptable, and are two slightly different things as well. How keeping prostitution of the "Pretty Woman" kind illegal is gonna end or deter pedophiles or human trafficking remains a mystery to me. It seems to me that freeing the police from the time consuming affair of chasing pimps and their prostitutes would give them more time to pursue the other separate and distinct crimes of pedophilia and human trafficking.

As far as I am concerned, the increased potential for catching and punishing those things alone is sufficient justification for leaving Ed AND Vivian alone.
45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It's time to decriminalize the buying and selling of sex (Original Post) stupidicus Aug 2014 OP
Victimless crime you say. Ask Carina Saunders family how fucking victimless it is CBGLuthier Aug 2014 #1
And "they" have done similar crimes to teach pot dealers Schema Thing Aug 2014 #4
human beings are not pot BainsBane Aug 2014 #18
And then the rule becomes the morality Schema Thing Aug 2014 #38
The morality of concern only for self BainsBane Aug 2014 #41
yeah but you don't get to accuse other people Schema Thing Aug 2014 #42
You say you don't care about morality? BainsBane Aug 2014 #43
Prostitution is still a victimless crime 4now Aug 2014 #8
Hey I can't get laid and I still think prostitution should be illegal mythology Aug 2014 #20
Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #44
What is 'prostitution of the 'Pretty Woman kind?' n/t leftstreet Aug 2014 #2
The kind that only happens in fictional movies. REP Aug 2014 #10
Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #45
That's cute how you added in the whining about having a post hidden. redqueen Aug 2014 #3
when rich white men fuck people it's just called business Skittles Aug 2014 #5
Hey I like the bit where people who disagree with you "should be excluded from this "debate"." el_bryanto Aug 2014 #6
There is no prostitution of the "pretty woman" kind BainsBane Aug 2014 #7
Exactly. It's a false image and it lets men MineralMan Aug 2014 #9
I agree MM BainsBane Aug 2014 #11
As far as I am concerned, MineralMan Aug 2014 #13
that's fucked up JI7 Aug 2014 #19
I agree. historylovr Aug 2014 #39
Can I get dressing on the side of this word salad? REP Aug 2014 #12
+1000 MineralMan Aug 2014 #14
It gets worse if you take the time BainsBane Aug 2014 #17
I believe he wants unfettered access to underaged sex workers REP Aug 2014 #21
That's how it comes across. historylovr Aug 2014 #40
I don't entirely disagree with your basic point. But I object to your tone and approach nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #15
"Tone"? opiate69 Aug 2014 #23
Is this a guy you really want to stick up for? Given his earlier post about minors "choosing" nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #24
I'm sticking up for no one. opiate69 Aug 2014 #25
Okay, if you really want to know, it's not even "tone" that I most object to here. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #27
"More the guy's insistence on labeling anyone who disagrees with him stupid and irrelevant." opiate69 Aug 2014 #30
Kinda like your response to me BainsBane Aug 2014 #31
... opiate69 Aug 2014 #33
Who was it who mentioned "glaring hypocrisy"? BainsBane Aug 2014 #36
You too. No hard feelings, even if we don't see eye to eye on this. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #32
Cheers. opiate69 Aug 2014 #34
I like good craft beer and (relatively) inexpensive red wine, as a general rule. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #35
The issue has nothing to do with tone BainsBane Aug 2014 #28
I know English can be tough, but please do try to follow... opiate69 Aug 2014 #29
Well, we all choose our own screen names on DU. MineralMan Aug 2014 #16
Decriminalize, maybe; but it still objectifies and commoditizes human beings. nt Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2014 #22
I strongly disagree Motown_Johnny Aug 2014 #26
I'm provisionally for legalization of most forms of sex work Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #37

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
1. Victimless crime you say. Ask Carina Saunders family how fucking victimless it is
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 03:34 PM
Aug 2014

A confidential witness told police she was kidnapped and forced to watch as members of a human trafficking ring tortured and killed Saunders to send a message to others to cooperate with their illegal activities.

Neither prosecutors nor police would comment on that aspect of the killing.

http://newsok.com/two-men-charged-in-carina-saunders-killing-affidavit-details-torture/article/3694786


They dismembered her alive to teach her a lesson and to teach a lesson to the girls they made watch it.

Does DU really need this fucking flood of bullshit threads insisting we legalize the sex trade just because some of you can't get laid?

Schema Thing

(10,283 posts)
4. And "they" have done similar crimes to teach pot dealers
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:39 PM
Aug 2014

not to cross them.


Doesn't change the fact that pot should be legal.


Fortunately for us all, dismemberment is and always will be a crime.

BainsBane

(53,072 posts)
18. human beings are not pot
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:06 PM
Aug 2014

People are not objects to acquire.

The nature of the activity differs tremendously.

But your example above is precisely why I refuse to buy illegal drugs.

BainsBane

(53,072 posts)
41. The morality of concern only for self
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:43 PM
Aug 2014

vs. exploitation, enslavement and child rape? Why should you care about the latter? What do human rights compare to male sexual entitlement? Yeah, I get that's the prevailing neoliberal ethos. No one matters but the self. Ayn Rand lives on.

This discussion of prostitution gives a perfect illustration of why exploitation and inequality prevails around the earth. Why should anyone care about morality or social justice when all that matters is themselves?

Schema Thing

(10,283 posts)
42. yeah but you don't get to accuse other people
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:54 PM
Aug 2014


of not caring about social justice, exploitation, and inequality simply for not agreeing with you that sex between consenting adults should be illegal.



You haven't seen the forest in a very long time.

BainsBane

(53,072 posts)
43. You say you don't care about morality?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:03 PM
Aug 2014

And then tell me I don't get to talk about social justice? What do you think social justice is founded on?

What consenting adults? A good percentage of prostitutes are well underage. It's legalization has been shown to lead to increased human trafficking. It is an industry that brings with it a tremendous amount of damage, even when legal. Pretending that's about someone's private sex life is to willfully ignore reality.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
20. Hey I can't get laid and I still think prostitution should be illegal
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:10 PM
Aug 2014

I love how the authors say that sure it's likely prostitution increases human trafficking, but it can't be proven so let's ignore it. That's the same incompetent logic that says because we can't prove a given storm is a result of climate change.

Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #1)

Response to leftstreet (Reply #2)

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
3. That's cute how you added in the whining about having a post hidden.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 03:58 PM
Aug 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5357740

That way your OP isn't solely whining about jury results

Maybe if you weren't so insistent about your vile opinion that children are capable of choosing to prostitute themselves you wouldn't have gotten a hide.

Good luck with your quest.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
6. Hey I like the bit where people who disagree with you "should be excluded from this "debate"."
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:54 PM
Aug 2014

I'm going to use that in the future - super useful. And putting debate in quotation marks - genius! It plants the idea that there is only one side in this discussion - your side!

Bryant

BainsBane

(53,072 posts)
7. There is no prostitution of the "pretty woman" kind
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 05:23 PM
Aug 2014

That is a Hollywood fantasy.

Earlier you were quite clear about the reality of the "profession" you sought to legalize.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5357740

Which was intended for evidence for a point made at the end of this post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5347357

MineralMan

(146,333 posts)
9. Exactly. It's a false image and it lets men
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 07:39 PM
Aug 2014

rationalize their use of women with no emotional connection.

I'm particularly bothered by the hint that even underage prostitution is somehow OK. I find that particularly nauseating.

ETA: I visited the link where it was said that some underaged girls choose prostitution. FEH! I can believe that could be stated here without a ban.

MineralMan

(146,333 posts)
13. As far as I am concerned,
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 07:58 PM
Aug 2014

anyone who uses a clearly underaged prostitute should get a minimum sentence of at least 20 years in prison. LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!

JI7

(89,276 posts)
19. that's fucked up
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:10 PM
Aug 2014

but i'm not surprised . it's always sleazy types trying to push this. and we are to believe they are concerned for the girls/women ?

REP

(21,691 posts)
12. Can I get dressing on the side of this word salad?
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 07:55 PM
Aug 2014

The TL;DR seems to be: "got locked out a thread, here's some more inane rambling."

REP

(21,691 posts)
21. I believe he wants unfettered access to underaged sex workers
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:29 PM
Aug 2014

and doesn't want to hear from anyone who thinks that's skeevy as hell.

historylovr

(1,557 posts)
40. That's how it comes across.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:06 AM
Aug 2014

And I thought the recent torture support op was the most disgusting thing I could read on here.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
15. I don't entirely disagree with your basic point. But I object to your tone and approach
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:00 PM
Aug 2014

because I find them to be condescending and dismissive. As if no one who disagrees with you has a right to their opinion.

And yes, your 6-1 hide was frankly well earned. In context, that was a disgusting and disingenuous post.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
24. Is this a guy you really want to stick up for? Given his earlier post about minors "choosing"
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:50 PM
Aug 2014

prostitution? I admit I'm not perfectly consistent all the time - no human being is - but there's a difference between having an honest objection to the way someone approaches or frames an issue, and merely using the "tone argument" as an excuse to be dismissive. Not that the line between the two is set in stone, by any means.

To put it another way, where do you see that the OP "has a good reason for being upset"? In what way is he a victim of injustice?

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
25. I'm sticking up for no one.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:53 PM
Aug 2014

Merely pointing out what I see as a glaring hypocrisy. Calling others to the carpet for the ridiculous "tone argument" charge, then turning around and doing the exact same thing is, at best, talking out of both sides of ones mouth.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
27. Okay, if you really want to know, it's not even "tone" that I most object to here.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:04 PM
Aug 2014

More the guy's insistence on labeling anyone who disagrees with him stupid and irrelevant. That, coupled with some of his earlier posts, hardly paints him in a positive light. I mean, the post that got hidden 6-1 was really egregious - should've been 7-0, quite honestly.

And more broadly, I also take issue with the general dismissiveness towards anyone with qualms about the sex industry. I'm very much anti-censorship, and I have no problem with explicit material in and of itself, but some folks don't seem to even want to have the discussion. Which kind of makes me wonder what they're afraid of...

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
30. "More the guy's insistence on labeling anyone who disagrees with him stupid and irrelevant."
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:17 PM
Aug 2014

Gee... that doesn't sound like anybody else some of us have been dealing with for the better part of 12 years, does it? Whatever.. I have better things to do than dissect inanities on a message board. Enjoy your evening.

BainsBane

(53,072 posts)
28. The issue has nothing to do with tone
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:06 PM
Aug 2014

Nomorenomore08 was trying to be polite. It's entirely about content, particularly as expressed in the hidden post the OP is whining about.

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
29. I know English can be tough, but please do try to follow...
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:14 PM
Aug 2014
But I object to your tone and approach

because I find them to be condescending and dismissive


And on that note, I'll go back to my blissful policy of non-engagement. Have fun storming the castle.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
26. I strongly disagree
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:59 PM
Aug 2014

Prostitution has always been used to subject women to the will of men.

I can understand the intellectual argument about a person's right to choose what to do with his or her body, but that argument is wrong. The amount of suffering inflicted on women by men coercing them to have sex for money outweighs any and all possible harm done by restricting the rights of people who would choose to exchange sex for money of their own free will.

It isn't even a close call.

I would even support a federal law which would effectively close down the industry in Nevada.


I also find the argument you presented in the OP about how legalizing it might reduce the human trafficking problem laughable. There might be a short term drop off, but legalizing prostitution would greatly increase it in the long run. There is already a problem with women being brought into this country with the promise of a job who are then forced to dance in strip clubs and prostitute themselves to pay for being brought to the U.S.. It is indentured servitude within the sex industry. Legalizing any portion of that is a huge mistake.


What we need to do is to create good jobs and a reasonable way of life for people. Not to make prostitution more agreeable. It needs to be reduced, not increased. IMO, any other position on this subject is misguided.


Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
37. I'm provisionally for legalization of most forms of sex work
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:35 PM
Aug 2014

With regard to prostitution, I think the best solution would be to legalize the selling of sex on the proviso that every prostitute operates out of a state-licensed brothel. That seems to both accept that prostitution will always exist but also gives us avenues to ensure everyone involved is of legal age, willing and has STD checks.

On porn: I think porn should be legal to both produce and consume but with additional safeguards like mandatory STD checks, age regulation and profit-sharing (pretty much everyone in porn is underpaid).

One of my friends was in porn, my SO used to be a phone sex operator (i.e. the person who talks dirty on the phone to you, usually while playing internet Scrabble) and I write erotica so I know a bit about the sex trade. Outright banning it has simply failed. What can be done is to enact safeguards for everyone involved.

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