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(72,300 posts)Duppers
(28,127 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 12, 2014, 10:51 PM - Edit history (1)
Or Tiger paws or bear bile....
Thanks for posting this!
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)logicatwork
(14 posts)You're an African poacher in Kenya who could gain $180 for the ivory and $6000 for the meat in one day compared to the regular average income of a $1 per day.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 12, 2014, 03:29 PM - Edit history (1)
Maybe they could get into another line of work. Just a thought.
Zero fucking sympathy from me on that.
pinto
(106,886 posts)It seems a hit 'n run operation.
logicatwork
(14 posts)Okay these poachers are not rich people. If they were then they'd be in another profession. These are Kenyans. From the average elephant you can make $180 off of the ivory. The meat however sells for about $5 per pound. Selling all of an elephants meat results in about $5000-$10000. If I had a pile of meat which I could easily cut up and carry along with tusks I'd take both. But I'm weird like that.
Googling elephant tusks for sale shows many pairs of tusks selling for $180.
"Fortunately, due to the fear of being caught with illegal elephant products, the maximum value of an elephant carcass is not achieved by the hunters. Often, only the tusks and a small amount of meat are taken, but the potential value of meat can far exceed that of ivory. The meat from an adult male could earn a hunting party up to US$5,000, a price that could only be achieved by very large tusks. Potentially, the carcass of a single adult elephant with large tusks could earn a hunting group over US$10,000. Any relaxation in the enforcement of legislation would provide greater opportunities to hunters and increase the frequency of poaching."
From : https://www.iucn.org/news_homepage/news_by_date/?9281/Sale-of-Elephant-Meat-Increases-Threat-to-Elephants-in-Central-Africa
pinto
(106,886 posts)"Any relaxation in the enforcement of legislation would provide greater opportunities to hunters and increase the frequency of poaching."
logicatwork
(14 posts)I was hoping someone would notice that. You see the general idea that people have is that we should just make all hunting illegal as if that will make everyone vegetarians instantly. That is the problem though. Kenya does not allow hunting of elephants. Period. Yet they have such a difficult time with poachers. Meanwhile in many southern African countries where hunting is allowed and regulated elephants are prospering due to the increase in income which allows funding for conservation and an incentive for native people not to illegally hunt elephants as they would lose a source of income then.
"Elephant populations across Africa are faring differently, with some remaining endangered and others now secure. Southern Africa is the stronghold for the species, with large and expanding populations."
From: http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/endangered_species/elephants/african_elephants/
pinto
(106,886 posts)Threats to African elephants
The two main historical factors behind the decline of African elephants demand for ivory and changes in land-use still pose a serious threat to the species.
Most range states do not have adequate capacity to protect and manage their herds. If conservation action is not forthcoming, elephants may become locally extinct in some parts of Africa within 50 years.
Still poached for ivory and meat
In the early 1970s, demand for ivory soared and the amount of ivory leaving Africa rose to levels not seen since the start of the century. Most of the ivory leaving Africa was taken illegally and over 80% of all the raw ivory traded came from poached elephants.
This illegal trade was largely responsible for reducing the African elephant population from 3-5 million to current levels. In the 1980s, for example, an estimated 100,000 elephants were being killed per year and up to 80% of herds were lost in some regions.
The poaching was generally well-organized and difficult to control because of the availability of automatic weapons.
Ivory ban introduced
In 1989, CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) banned international trade in ivory to combat this massive illegal trade.
As the ban came into force in 1990, some of the major ivory markets were eliminated. As a result, some countries in Africa experienced a steep decline in illegal killing, especially where elephants were adequately protected. This allowed some elephant populations to recover.
But poaching continues
However, in countries where wildlife management authorities are chronically under-funded, poaching still appears to be a chronic, significant problem. Thriving but unmonitored domestic ivory markets continue in a number of states, some of which have few elephants of their own remaining. These markets fuel the illegal international trade.
Moreover, increasing land use pressures on elephant range (see below), declining law enforcement budgets, and continuing poaching pressure for bush meat as well as ivory, have kept illegal killing of elephants widespread in some regions.
Unequal distribution of elephants means different opinions on conservation
Considerable debate surrounds elephant conservation, largely because of the varying status of elephant populations in different range countries.
Some people, mainly in southern African countries where elephant populations are increasing, consider that a legal and controlled ivory trade could bring substantial economic benefits to Africa without jeopardizing the conservation of the species. Others are opposed to it because corruption and lack of law enforcement in some countries would make it difficult to control the trade.
logicatwork
(14 posts)Funny even after all the laws and restrictions against hunting poaching is still a problem. Look the answer is to allow controlled hunting. Let me explain. If you allow people to hunt you bring in a source of income which can help fund conservation efforts. If you ban hunting you take away that source of income and thus native people have no reason to not hunt these animals themselves. If you create a situation where it is more beneficial for native people to let endangered species live then they'll let them live, if you create a situation where native people have no other options they're going to take the only one. I'm no expert on this subject but it seems to me that our best option to help these animals and communities is to allow hunting. What's going on in Kenya isn't working, fix it.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Please elaborate instead of just assuming that I'll immediately change my ways.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)If you take aim at an elephant, it's only fair if someone else drops you first, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)I posted something similar a while back regarding that crazy girl who wants to get a reality show by hunting animals. It was hidden by her sympathizers, people who are utterly clueless to what the stakes are with poaching and wanton slaughter of rare animals.
And here's what it comes down to for me:
There are billions of people on the planet
There are thousands of elephants.
Which is more unique? Which could the world do without more of?
It's pretty easy to figure all of that out if you give a shit about conservation.
Iggo
(47,571 posts)Gotcha.
logicatwork
(14 posts)Just that people who kill these animals have to choose between poverty or the killing of an animal which ensures their survival.
Tikki
(14,559 posts)The poachers know about extinction. Please don't assume they are stupid.
Tikki
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)totally agree
Tikki
(14,559 posts)The World is full of greedy.
There are game animals that are not on the extinction list that can be
food for the hungry.
Someone knows that but is defending crime...
Tikki
logicatwork
(14 posts)The people in Kenya realize the possibility of extinction. But imagine that your a father who can barely keep his family alive. Would you not join a group to kill an elephant to provide for your family. You think these people have options or hunt for fun? If they had a better option they'd be doing that instead of killing this unique and magnificent beast.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Why do you focus just on Kenya?
logicatwork
(14 posts)The elephant is a much greater resource than the gorilla since it can provide meat for food and ivory which can be used in art or for manufacturing. Just because this involves poaching does not mean that the situations are the same.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Kill the few that are left or figure out how to continue using them. Why do you focus only on Kenya?
arcane1
(38,613 posts)logicatwork
(14 posts)So the people who buy the meat as food should just stop?
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)They aren't hunting them for meat. They're hunting them for their heads, their ivory and their feet and tails. Get a grip.
logicatwork
(14 posts)The majority of hunters are not rich Englishmen seeing to add to their hunting trophies. These are regular people trying to support themselves and their families.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)The reality is that elephant was likely shot by a trophy hunter who left the meat for the little people to beg for while they jetted back to their decadent lifestyle.
The fact that you would willfully cheer this on and attempt to rationalize it with lame talking points is just sick.
Sorry you hate elephants.
Get help.
Now.
logicatwork
(14 posts)Put yourselves in these situations. Bear with my stupidity please.
Say your the hunter. You spend quite a sum of money to go to Kenya, fill out the government forms, pay to hunt, etc. You find an elephant which you would like to hunt. The officials in the conservation department determine whether the elephant will be okay to hunt. Usually they base this off of the age, health, and importance of the elephant. With the okay to hunt you kill the elephant. Note that this is all legal. Then you take the ivory and leave the meat for the villagers. What's the deal here? This isn't an immoral hunter. He followed all the rules and helped the native people. Not only that but because of his/her hunting there is a net increase of income in Kenya. Now the native people have an incentive to not poach elephants as otherwise there would be no elephants legal hunting and thus no income from potential legal hunters.
Okay now say you get rid of legal hunting. First of all I can assure you nobody in their right mind would go to Kenya to illegally poach an elephant. Would you spend all that money just to hunt an elephant? So no poachers are not rich trophy hunters they are regular people who actually live there. These people would rather make some money than to let elephants live. So they poach elephants. Don't give me a lame excuse that there are better animals to hunt. If there were then people would be hunting them. This, to the Kenyans, is the best option. However due to the lack of organization the elephants will eventually die out.
Let me say that the death of these elephants does not make me happy. It doesn't. But I sympathize with the Kenyans in the decision that they are making and understand their point of view.
Also do you really think that I'm just a pawn of the rich 1%? Look mom I'm giving excuses for filthy rich greedy hunters! Aren't you proud. No I've given a lot of thought to this and I've come to the realization that hunting is not bad to a certain extent.
Sorry to rant.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Is just dumb. Period. End of story. Game over.
It's clear what this is really all about: hunting as a pastime, recreation etc.
I don't have a problem with hunting. I have a problem with people hunting animals that are threatened or endangered, which elephants most certainly are.
I suggest you google trump and elephant hunting and tell me again how the very wealthy don't actually go to Africa and murder these animals for shits and giggles. They donated the elephant they murdered to the people there as well for food. It didn't make the act any less repugnant.
logicatwork
(14 posts)What are you proposing to do then? This is not about recreational hunting. This is about an endangered species which needs to be saved. Simply telling people to not hunt elephants will not solve the problem. Allowing a flow of income from outside sources not only provides funding for conservation, but also allows the close monitoring of endangered species to ensure their survival. It also provides an incentive for would be poachers to not poach (native people usually) as illegally poaching will greatly reduce a species numbers preventing any chance of legal hunting which in turn leads to close and careful conservation.
You can't deny the fact that in places such as Kenya where hunting is not allowed poaching is high and conservation efforts are low. Meanwhile in much of south Africa where hunting is allowed there is a big comeback of endangered species due to increased funding which in turn increases conservation efforts which in turn prevents poaching.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Period.
Iggo
(47,571 posts)Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Duppers
(28,127 posts)What the fuck then, BungalowBill?
And how the hell do we change the mindset of the Asians who buy these endangered critter parts??
That's the market.
I understand their poverty, but wonder how they lived before the uptake of the Asian ivory market.
Hunting sucks but hunting not for meat to live sucks more. Yeah, I'm angry.
Blue Owl
(50,513 posts)n/t