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n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:10 PM Aug 2014

Paul Krugman- Why We Fight Wars

A century has passed since the start of World War I, which many people at the time declared was “the war to end all wars.” Unfortunately, wars just kept happening. And with the headlines from Ukraine getting scarier by the day, this seems like a good time to ask why.

Once upon a time wars were fought for fun and profit; when Rome overran Asia Minor or Spain conquered Peru, it was all about the gold and silver. And that kind of thing still happens. In influential research sponsored by the World Bank, the Oxford economist Paul Collier has shown that the best predictor of civil war, which is all too common in poor countries, is the availability of lootable resources like diamonds. Whatever other reasons rebels cite for their actions seem to be mainly after-the-fact rationalizations. War in the preindustrial world was and still is more like a contest among crime families over who gets to control the rackets than a fight over principles.

If you’re a modern, wealthy nation, however, war — even easy, victorious war — doesn’t pay. And this has been true for a long time. In his famous 1910 book “The Great Illusion,” the British journalist Norman Angell argued that “military power is socially and economically futile.” As he pointed out, in an interdependent world (which already existed in the age of steamships, railroads, and the telegraph), war would necessarily inflict severe economic harm even on the victor. Furthermore, it’s very hard to extract golden eggs from sophisticated economies without killing the goose in the process.

We might add that modern war is very, very expensive. For example, by any estimate the eventual costs (including things like veterans’ care) of the Iraq war will end up being well over $1 trillion, that is, many times Iraq’s entire G.D.P.

So the thesis of “The Great Illusion” was right: Modern nations can’t enrich themselves by waging war. Yet wars keep happening. Why?

more
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/opinion/paul-krugman-why-we-fight.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

Dr. Krugman misses the point. Governments don't make money on war, but the folks that control those governments sure do. Right, Darth Cheney?

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Warpy

(111,335 posts)
3. Nations can't but some of their citizens can
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:30 PM
Aug 2014

and therein lies the reason for most wars, that and silly posturing among old men who consider themselves entitled to the top of the human dungheap.

It's always been a rich man's war, poor man's fight; old man's war, young man's fight.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
4. Yes war doesn't pay off..
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:34 PM
Aug 2014

unless it is one of those rare exceptions such as:

Gaining our independence from British colonial rule;

Throwing the British out of the US after they invaded us - The War of 1812;

Preserving the Union and freeing the slaves
during The Civil War;

Preventing Imperial Germany and it's allies from overrunning Europe;

Defeating Facism and Nazism after the Axis Powers declared war on us;

Preserving a free and autonomous South Korea after the North invaded the South;

Defeating the Soviet Union and it's Warsaw Pact allies in the Cold War.

Throwing the Iraqi Army out of Kuwait in 1991;

Taking out the Taliban controlled government in Afghanistan after 911.

PLEASE NOTE:

There are other little stupid wars that our goverment has engaged in that we shouldn't have done.

Do to the high expense of war, our leaders should ensure that any war of the future is absolutely vital to our national security.


n2doc

(47,953 posts)
5. Those last 2 did not pay off for us at all
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:38 PM
Aug 2014

Maybe the King of Kuwait is happy. Afghanistan is going right back to the Taliban/warlords within a few years. But it's a nice story, isn't it.

 

agbdf

(200 posts)
8. Great, we disagree on only two in my list
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:59 PM
Aug 2014

But, it sounds as though we agree that sometimes nations like ours do have to go to war - as terrible as war is.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
9. You did leave some real debacles off your list
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 02:42 PM
Aug 2014

And it has been a long time since we had a 'just' war.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
7. I would definitely leave a few of those wars off the list.
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:57 PM
Aug 2014

Even as to some of the wars that I would leave on the list, cui bono?

pampango

(24,692 posts)
11. "The larger problem, however, is that governments all too often gain politically from war ..."
Mon Aug 18, 2014, 03:44 PM
Aug 2014
... delusions of easy winnings still happen. It’s only a guess, but it seems likely that Vladimir Putin thought that he could overthrow Ukraine’s government, or at least seize a large chunk of its territory, on the cheap — a bit of deniable aid to the rebels, and it would fall into his lap. And for that matter, remember when the Bush administration predicted that overthrowing Saddam and installing a new government would cost only $50 billion or $60 billion?

And the fact is that nations almost always rally around their leaders in times of war, no matter how foolish the war or how awful the leaders. Argentina’s junta briefly became extremely popular during the Falklands war. For a time, the “war on terror” took President George W. Bush’s approval to dizzying heights, and Iraq probably won him the 2004 election. True to form, Mr. Putin’s approval ratings have soared since the Ukraine crisis began.

No doubt it’s an oversimplification to say that the confrontation in Ukraine is all about shoring up an authoritarian regime that is stumbling on other fronts. But there’s surely some truth to that story — and that raises some scary prospects for the future. Most immediately, we have to worry about escalation in Ukraine. All-out war would be hugely against Russia’s interests — but Mr. Putin may feel that letting the rebellion collapse would be an unacceptable loss of face.

And if authoritarian regimes without deep legitimacy are tempted to rattle sabers when they can no longer deliver good performance, think about the incentives China’s rulers will face if and when that nation’s economic miracle comes to an end — something many economists believe will happen soon.

Nice find, n2doc.
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