Not what I would call a good justification, but ...

It's a sad commentary on this nation that someone blowing the whistle on wholesale violation of constitutional restraints on government power had to flee to that deranged fascist state.

about Putin knocking down a civilian plane ...? any updates or is that story done ?

but we are protecting Putin ? we have the Black boxes and presumably communication between pilot and tower but we are not going public with the proof ? seems odd to me ....

to know what was recorded on the black boxes and why it was taking so long.

I believe the article exists. To think that Russia doesn't know what happened is ludicrous.
Oh, and that Stalin wasn't a bad fellow either. He, and Pol Pot, they both were just misunderstood.

the primer than the latter. You need to study parallel construction. I have to feed my animals. They will hopefully provide some cognizant barks and meows.

Does the poster think they are encountering new people who dont know better?

after all we spent weeks blaming and demonizing them.....

plane the day it happened. But I won't go through all the info I went through again. I'll wait for the Dutch to give their verdict--and live with it no matter what. I've seen machine gun hits on plenty of machines. But it's been a long time ago.

Shouldn't you be over on Discussionist?

"discussionist" ? I am supposed to accept Russia's guilt with no questions based on what ? Social; media proof as offered by both the US and Kiev Governments? The US Government has a disastrous record as to "telling truth" sorry those are the facts.....

We the American people live with the hope that this time the US Govt is telling truth...but that is like Charlie Brown expecting to kick a football...its not happening....

As soon as they found out what they'd done, they shut their mouths. The crash site was scavenged for days by the rebels, who removed as much evidence as they could. The rebels shot the plane down, and they couldnt have done it without help from Russia keeping them a viable force. But we'll never be able to prove Putin was in on it.

a plane go down and jumped to be the first to report it.

I tend to think it may have been the rebels, but it is more complicated than that. What the media does not mention (and possibly why they won't release the tapes) is that Ukraine was using civilian aircraft as human shields.

But certainly the idea that Russia shot it down is just propaganda.

and go back and correct our errors we can never say anything bad about Putin.

Even as liberals who have dissented from official US bad policies.
We're all just hypocrites, don't you know?



on edit: clarity

Should I go back and edit it again?

words or entire lines, and you were very clear about what you were saying when I reread it..

This has been a very sophisticated 10 year effort and has included two attempts (Orange Revolution was the first).

Question and research.

For instance where have we received this idea that Russia (while definitely behind in it's approach to LGBT rights) is so much worse than Ukraine? It isn't. Both countries are exactly at the same level.

This chart allows you to compare LGBT legal rights in two countries.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2014/may/-sp-gay-rights-world-lesbian-bisexual-transgender#country:804,643

Russia also has far less anti-semitism as a whole then not only Ukraine, but most countries of Eastern Europe. But is that what you have been led to believe?

There is work to do in all these countries. But we need to recognize that we are being manipulated and that effect is actually hurting the advancement of Human Rights around the world.

Russia actually has more laws that in general should protect the LGBT public that the US does. But more work is needed in the areas of education and application of those laws. For instance, Russia actually has stronger labor codes than the us and does not have "Right to work" laws and it is illegal to discriminate in hiring or firing or at work due to sexual orientation or preferences. In the US there are no specific protections against discrimination in the workplace in 29 states and thanks to "right to work" there is no recourse.

The US still has statutes that technically make homosexuality illegal in 12 states and the US military, while it is legal and technically protected throughout Russia. The primary difference is we have done much more education work so that those states only rarely attempt to use those laws as they know that there will be a backlash. And in Russia more work in education and enforcement needs to be done. I won't go into it much but one of the factors affecting Russia is that our own Right Wing Parties and right wing religious organizations infiltrated Russia very early on. They treat it like an experiment. I have no doubt that without their influence Russia would have advanced far more than it has. But that is getting off topic.

My point is that these things are much more complicated and severely agitated by the neocon shock doctrine preparation that has been occurring for 10 years. it is the neocons, neoliberals, and the International Republican institute that we should be fighting harder against, not Russia.

Russia is indeed a complex place with some very strong contradictions, which is all the more reason to let reason determine our approach.

A master of understatement

Russia is consistently rated one of the most antisemitic countries in the world, not just Europe or Eastern Europe.

And trying to make them seem good on LGBT rights or better than xyz country is pathetic.

"Least they don't kill them!"
"Most of the time!"
"Some of the time..."

But it's all a fascist CIA plot according to these people.

Then Russia annexed the Crimea.

Never would happen and no power would allow similar to happen to them, it would be essentially suicidal militarily and economically.

What tens of people out of 7 billion around the globe even made such an assertion?

If you really really want it

Gotcha

Admitting reality is not being a proponent of anything. The sun rising in the east is not subject to approval, it just is what it is.

Otherwise it's always completely wrong.

"neighbors" territory through violence. It is so well documented the main perp's name has been turned into a verb. But, of course, the United States can do anything: They can shoot unarmed black people; they can let past presidents and their staff do war crimes without redress of any kind; they can let banks steal money and not repay it, and a lot more things I don't have time to write. Ye without sin cast the first stone. And "ye" is NOT the United States of America, a soft fascist State devolving into a second world entity as we write.

You're right on cue.

going to happen as if I had crystal ball in front of me. It's very plain. Bye.

against it's wishes.

People really need to be careful with what they believe and listen to and RESEARCH. Because with something as big as what is happening in Ukraine there are always interests playing with facts.

When the USSR was breaking up Crimea fought to stay in Russia. It was imposed on them. They were given a compromise and that is how that name you always hear "Autonomous Republic of Crimea" comes from. They insisted on and had a separate constitution to assure that they would remain autonomous. Of course Ukraine did not want that and (with the help of a little corruption), they had their court rewrite Crimea's constitution (does the referendum now become a little clearer? Why the second option restored the original constitution, it was to at the least right a wrong).

Ukraine **annexed** crimea. Even then Crimea fought against it but could not stop it.

Things seem to make much more sense once one understands the history.

That is also why the west was so quick to resign themselves to it. Officials knew that this was authentic and that Crimeans view it as writing a historical wrong.

It is unfortunate that things happened the way they did because I believe that Ukrainians actually would have been content with the constitution being righted. But with the coup they had no confidence in the future and moved to the safest option

They had their lease. This is about crushing Ukraine just like the US did with Nicaragua, Cuba etc.

side against Ukraine and use as an analogy the US "crushing" Nicaragua, Cuba? Oh, I get it: The latter was A-okay, but primer is simply horrible.

pathetic failed excuse for the invasion. How many have we seen now?

1. Because the Ukranian gov't had neo-nazis in it.

2. Because Ukraine was bothering citizens of Russian origin.

3. Because Ukraine wasnt going to let Russia keep using the port at Sevastopol

4. Because the US was too involved in fomenting the revolution.

5. Because Ukraine isn't really a country, it's historically been part of Russia anyway

And that doesn't get into lies during and post the invasion like

A. There are no Russian troops invading Crimea or Eastern Ukraine

B. The Ukrainians shot down the plane

C. The Ukranians are engaging in aggression against their people in the eastern Ukraine

It has been one lie after another from Russia and those apologizing for Russia.

As a gay activist since the 70's, I pay attention to history. Hitler used Germans in other countries as cover then grabbed the countries. With Isis beheading seems more universal.

You made a claim in the title without backing it up in your text.

Means to do the bidding of someone. Generally meant in a derogatory sense.

"Careful with your posts, Drax, you might earn yourself a pizza!"

"This is good. I like to eat pizza."

Not everyone gets to work on improving a foreign language while on the job

these posters fire a gun at a Ukrainian Right-winger ethnic cleansing a village of Separatists? Did any of these posters beat up women and children on the Ukrainians side of the border? Did any of these poster do anything in actuality to the Ukrainians? Or are these posters expressing their conscience in the matter, a right still guaranteed by our rapidly diminishing Constitution? I fought in two wars for this country. I would like to know why what I think is less important than what you think?

I don't even think Neo-nazis need to be run out of the country. I just don't think people who excuse illegal invasion and annexations by homophobic and expansionist dictatorships really have a place on a private progressive forum.

President Viktor Yanukovych was taken down by Victoria Nuland and team. Had that not happened I wouldn't even be posting regarding Russia v/ Ukraine. And Putin's military wouldn't be at the Sea of Asov right now.

NATO encircling Russia is an attack on Russia. Russia does not have 800+ military bases around the world--the US does. Per Crimea--they voted to be annexed. Where were you in 1956 when Kruschev transferred Crimea to Ukraine without consiling its inhabitants?

--Southcom and Africom means "command." Where has Russia asserted any similar claim anywhere?

How exactly is the use of the word "command" sinister now?

When has Russia ever aspired to have a "Northcom"?

For example, "Joint Strategic Command West".

According to your logic, that means Russia believes they should have military control over the entire West. Should we start bombing, or perhaps your argument is incredibly stupid?

Joint Strategic Command South is the Russian entity commanding the invasion of Ukraine.

The whole "direction"-com crap isn't working out, so it's time to change the subject.

So, where are the 800+ US military bases that you're so upset about? Let me give you a hint: the vast majority of bases in other countries that have US troops aren't US bases. They're still owned by the host country. In fact, the host country can throw us out, as the Philippines did in the 1990s.

If it's an empire, where are their bases?

didn't butcher .

and Russia responded by killing 100,000 of them. You breezily dismiss that while acting like Ukraine is a nation of Hitlers for resisting Russia's invasion.

Since I do not think rt.com is an oracle of truth, discussion with you on this is pointless. Last word is yours .

Other countries tend to not let the invaders build bases before the invasion.

For example, Saddam was really not interested in the US building bases in Iraq in 2001.

Alternatively, you could look at the ones in Chechnya. Or the one they just reactivated in Cuba.

I'm not even going to bother.

Russia invaded the Crimea, that is why there were tanks and armed soldiers pouring from Russian military bases. Denying this is absolutely laughable at this point.

Oh and that 97% in favor North Korea style referendum is the weakest thing I've ever seen in my life.

It is a shame most Crimeans don't speak german, because they could have just reused this Austrian ballot.



I heard they even got 90 plus percent in favor with that one too! Ja wohl!

Crimea has spent vastly more years as part of Russian than as part of Ukraine. Did Kruschev allow them to choose to be moved to Ukrain in 1956?

NATO has no designs on Russia and the reason so many former Soviet states are fleeing to NATO is because the empire Putin worked for, and is working to revive, was one of the most repressive and murderous in human history.

Oh, wait.....

The term Centcom indicates that the US empire sees Russia as rightfully under its military dominion. Get back to me when Russia starts a Northcom. Oh, wait--Northcom is us too.

at least get the names right.

Centcom does not cover Russia. EUCOM does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Central_Command#mediaviewer/File:Unified_Combatant_Commands_map.png

with actually defending the country?

Every single treaty made with native American nations has been ignored. Every one.

Clinton of course never sigupided a treaty guaranteeing that NATO would never expand eastward. Russians were obviously pretty stupid to just take his word for it.

They didn't quite hold up their end of that deal.

Any treaty about a population that had no say in drafting it has no validity. And how did our pledge to defend "South" Vietnam help the 99% either here or there?

The "election" ratifying the conquest didn't quite poll every Crimean.

Also, if you're going to claim input is required, no one polled the Chechens before Putin slaughtered 100,000 of them. Yet you're pretending Russia is noble and not imperialist.

Also, you keep claiming NATO is a terrible, imperialist thing. Nothing has done more to validate the existence of NATO than Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

--when Khruschev transfered Crimea to Ukraine without permission of the residents. Crimea has been a part of Russia for vastly longer than it has been part of Ukraine.

Yet another dumb argument.

So how 'bout those Chechens? If the people wanting independence are so important in Crimea, how come it's irrelevant in Chechnya?

See also "miltarized policing."

did under Reagan when they tried to justify his crimes against humanity.

That is what happens when people explicitly root for fascism.

Russia's a signatory of the 1995 treaty that said it would not recognize any attempt on the part of Crimea to rejoin Russia and recognized the boundaries of Ukraine as legitimate, inviolate and not subject to future renegotiation...that wasn't a sucker deal for them by any stretch, it guaranteed them discussions maintaining future access to Ukrainian Black Sea Naval ports--subsequently, in the 1997 Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet, they obtained a lease for use, maintenance and access to the naval port at Sevastopol until 2017.

That's what this is really about...Ukraine is threatening to join NATO, coming up on the day when they can unilaterally expel Russia from garrisoning troops on their soil while severing Russian access to the Black Sea, and had an internal crisis that provided a pretext to violate the 1995 treaty and annex Crimea, insuring permanent future access to Sevastopol.

All Russian kvetchery about it amounts to hot air to justify an international crime, one that Russia agreed as recently as 1995 would be considered an act of war against Kiev and considered by NATO to be an act of aggression. They're lucky there's room for diplomacy based on their recent actions...but there is--provided they back down and abandon their efforts towards maintaining access to Sevastopol, annexing Crimea, stop supporting insurrections in former client states, and withdraw their forces. If there is need of a peacekeeping force...their assertion...then an international peacekeeping force which they will be excluded from will be assembled to prevent Ukrainian atrocities against the Russian-speaking people of E. Ukraine and Crimea.

Although the agreement prohibited interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine, Putin violated it and there seems to be a pattern:

...Putin's comments conjure memories of a statement he made to former US President George Bush in 2008 when he said that "Ukraine is not even a state!" during a Bucharest summit.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vladimir-putin-continues-soviet-rhetoric-by-questioning-kazakhstans-created-independence-1463460

Putin wanted their man in Kiev to stay put for Russia's purposes. Thank you for the link. I'd never seen it.

Of course Crimea voted to be annexed. Thats what they were told to do and the votes were counted accordingly. And everyone else was made to leave.

in order to prevent the USSR from encircling us?

Kiev is bombing eastern cities. Eastern cities are not bombing Kiev.

There is Ukraine and there is Russia.

And Nicaragua was most certainly a satellite of the USSR, just like Cuba was. Guess what ? Reagan was still hideously wrong for what he did.

Just like we funded what became al qaueda when they were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.
Funny thing, he talks about a 'white ukraine" and the russians are mostly whites themselves.

--don't want that to happen.

creating enemy after enemy and then stands in front of some platitudinous lecturn and says, "You know, such and such country shouldn't do that, or that, that too. But all these sanctimonious words don't apply the United States somehow.

That worked so wonderfully in Iraq, Libya and Syria, right?

Just so you know. I am seriously glad that John McCain isn't president right ni. He would be giving the MIC another trillion or two to bomb Iraq into submission.

once RT was determined to be a news source that wasn't acceptable for LBN, they began swarming GD.



Sid

Methinks they're just in it to prop-up the mythologies that make them feel better about apologizing for an imperialist monster.

just commenting on a general trend I'm seeing

Yeah, I'm getting sick of that.

But I'd be lying if I didn't find some of the pictures posted by way of push-back nothing short of gut-bustingly funny.

I wonder if the admins are looking for evidence of proxy-itis? Gotta hide that dot R U somehow....

Anti-imperialism implies nothing whatsoever about pro anything else.

That was the main point of the OP