General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe don't know if Zimmerman is guilty
Is George Zimmerman guilty of an unlawful homicide? I want to suggest that the average person doesnt know the answer to this question. If (1) Zimmermans actions prior to fighting with Martin were lawful, (2) Martin nevertheless initiated the violence by punching Zimmerman, and (3) Zimmerman, reasonably fearing death or even great bodily harm, killed Martin, then in all probability Zimmermans taking Martins life was justifiable under the law.
We (average folks) dont know if (1)-(3) are true, and so we dont know if Zimmerman committed a crime. I havent read anything to suggest that Zimmermans actions prior to the violence were unlawful. And we certainly dont know who initiated the violence. And how can we in our armchairs be certain that Zimmerman didnt reasonably fear great bodily harm?
Whether Zimmerman is convicted of a crime may well depend on witness testimony and on whether the screams for help in the 911 recording can be established to be Martins. But we dont know how all of that will play out.
Edited to add: My guess is that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime. Just trying to keep the discussion reasonable.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)stalking?
No, we don't know everything. But I know enough to say Zimmy was dead wrong in what he did and Trayvon is just dead. It will be interesting to see what else comes out.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)People infer that he ignored the suggestion not to continue following Martin from the fact that he changed his mind about meeting the police at the mailboxes and asked that they call him when they arrive.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Just a simple question. How do you know? Because of his breathing? Why can't he breath heavy when walking back?
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Who saw what and where along with where the shooting took place indicates that neither Martin nor Zimmerman did any going back from their directions of travel.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)I don't think there is a witness saying where Zimmerman was when dispatch told him not to follow. Are we going by what Zimmerman may have said on his location? Because that may not be a good idea.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)He was told that they "didn't need him to do that." But was not specifically instructed not too.
Mind you, I think he's guilty as hell, but I also think that now that he's been charged, he deserves a fair trial and the legal presumption of innocence until guilt is proven. And i also think that it's important we keep our facts straight as much as possible.
Witch hunts are ugly things, no matter who is doing the hunting.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)I don't know about Florida.
No. 911 dispatcher has no legal authority. At least not Florida. Probably not anywhere.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)shimonitanegi
(114 posts)but almost all people will follow the order.
It is a matter of common sense rather than legal obligation.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)To not be pursued, confronted, by a civilian with a gun. That law is supposed to apply, to all whether they are gun owners or not.
Cosmocat
(14,572 posts)there is no debating that in this situation, the guy walking around minding his own business had more right to "stand his ground" than the clown stalking him. But, because the clown had a gun, his rights trump the kid who gets killed.
Makes perfect sense.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)guitar man
(15,996 posts)That's what I've been thinking all along. Even if Trayvon did wallop him, he may well have been within his rights and the one actually covered by the law.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)that seems so lost in all of this
SATIRical
(261 posts)you do not have the right to not be followed unless a judge has said so.
And we don't know who did the confronting.
Finally, it was a concealed weapon so there is no indication Martin knew Zim had a gun until he pulled it. And we don't know when that happened.
Personally, I think Zin was racist and wrong. But my feelings don't change the facts.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)So any strange man has the right to follow me on a public street for whatever reason he wants? Can you say stalking? Oh, better get my CCW so I can shot a stranger who is following me!!!!!
SATIRical
(261 posts)If it is a series of occurrences or a pattern, then it can be stalking. However, for a single instance, it is legal.
Ever wonder why most paparazzi aren't charged with stalking?
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)I've called the cops on a man who was doing that to me once, and they informed him that was considered assault and misdemeanor harassment. The cop told me assault is the intent of harm, battery is the physical part of harm. So, maybe in some areas it's okay, but not in all areas, and also not depending on the situation.
I can say that I learned in my CCW class that if that happened, and the person refused to halt and still kept coming towards me, I would legally have the right to shoot (I'm a woman).
vaberella
(24,634 posts)Zimmerman confronted and followed Martin.
SATIRical
(261 posts)That's what I figured happened but I haven't seen any evidence showing who confronted who.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)that slow.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)That Zimmerman had NO right to chase Trayvon. Zimmerman wasn't a Neighborhood watch team captain. Zimmerman was told to stop chasing Trayvon. I trust what Trayvon Martin's girlfriend said about Zimmerman asking Trayvon "Why are you here", and then the sound of being pushed, and the phone going dead. If Trayvon kicked the shit out of Zimmerman, it still wouldn't be self defense. Zimmerman started this, and Zimmerman is responsible for the outcome. It's too bad Zimmerman can't be charged with first degree murder, because that is what this is IMO.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)I'm sorry, but that is simply a purely false statement. He was advised that they didn't need him to follow, but he was not instructed not to. We really need to try to keep our heads on straight here folks, and when I keep seeing the same falsehood repeated over and over that's a sign that we are failing in that area.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Let's have the trial. Then come back and we'll discuss your theories, if you're still here.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Just sayin'.
livetohike
(22,163 posts)He obviously got outside of his car for some reason. Why did he follow Trayvon? Why did he call 9-1-1? What was his intent on following Trayvon? Why did he continue to follow Trayvon despite being told not to?
If you were a 17 year old and a man whom you didn't know was following you, what would you do?
Maybe Zimmerman got out of his car and showed his gun, pointed it at Trayvon and the 17 year old tackled him to prevent him from firing at him. Running away would not have stopped the shot.
I think Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, therefore, with my preconceived notion of his guilt, I would not make a good juror.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I agree that maybe he pulled his gun on Martin and Martin tried to defend himself. There are plenty of maybes in this case.
randome
(34,845 posts)That's why he's not cooperating with his attorneys and has gone into hiding.
lame54
(35,321 posts)People have been arrested for far less
Logical
(22,457 posts)initiator, which means he cannot, once things went south, decide to use deadly force when he caused the deadly force.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)"Cop Want to be". I think he tried to detain Trayvon because the police were on the way and his saying "These assholes always get away" comment makes it seem like he was going to stop this one from getting away.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)But you might be right. I don't know.
Logical
(22,457 posts)K Gardner
(14,933 posts)Now, the parents have not even been able to breathe a sigh of relief that their son's killer has been arrested, and you're already posting your Armchair Thread. Are you going to be the voice of Zimmerman for the duration of the trial? Just curious. You seem to have a vested interest.
The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)It worries him to think living out this fantasy might land him in a penitentiary, as it is most likely to do with Zimmerman....
Vattel
(9,289 posts)The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)K Gardner
(14,933 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)Self-delude much?
The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)For those of you who have such things, anyway....
Vattel
(9,289 posts)The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)heh ...someone alerted on you.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I have posted a lot on this because I have been appalled by the response to this case on this site and in much of the media. I like to think that we on the left aren't as dumb as the crazies on the right. People claim to know that he faked his injuries, that he said "coon" and not "punk," that he is 250 pounds, that his father used his influence to keep him from being charged, that if he had shot Martin when Martin was on top of him he would have been covered by blood, etc. I guess I think people shouldn't pretend to know things they don't know.
K Gardner
(14,933 posts)obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)I know his head wasn't repeatedly slammed on concrete. I know he was given deferential treatment by the authorities. I know said authorities treated Trayvon like a gangsta killer. I know Zimmerman followed and harassed Martin, and was armed with a pistol, whereas Martin was armed with Arizona Tea and Skittles. I know his killing, and probable murder, has unleashed appalling public racism.
I know I own several firearms and hold a CCW, and occasionally conceal carry my pistol, and know what Zimmerman did was a felony.
I know a few other things, too, including I'm not on Zimmy's jury and never will be, so I can speculate all I want to.
Ineeda
(3,626 posts)Without exception (that I've seen anyway) every post is oddly in defense of him. Highly suspect.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I did point out to someone that the voice analysis did not conclude that it was only a 52 per cent chance that the screams were not Zimmerman's. It found a 52% match which according to the analyst means that it is reasonably certain that the screams were nto Zimmerman's.
I also agreed that the demonization of Martin in the press was disgusting.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)The second Zimmerman chased after Martin by leaving his vehicle against 911 advice, he became the aggressor. You don't chase after people who aren't doing anything wrong with a gun and have it be anything but murder.
I don't give a shit if Trayvon insulted George's mother, punched him in the mouth, and called him names - he followed him with a gun and shot him. Zimmerman elected himself as judge, jury and executioner without even the slightest bit of evidence of wrongdoing.
since when is following anyone illegal?
If Trayvon punched him in the mouth then Trayvon initiated the violence.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You cannot use deadly force against someone after you have stalked them, and that's what Zimmerman did. I would have defended myself, too, at that point.
Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and he found it. Sadly, that ended with a young man's life being cut short. Trayvon was a human being, let's not forget that.
following is not the same as stalking.
If someone followed you, do you think you are justified in punching that person?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'll defend myself. If someone is following me on the way home, and is persistent, then I'll assume it's time to be cautious. That's just the way it is. If "leave me alone" doesn't work, I'll likely and rightly believe that I'm being stalked.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)We know from the girlfriend that Trayvon was aware of a strange man following him. Since the route he was taking led to his fathers house, it is a reasonable conclusion to assume he would seek safety there. IOW, his mindset would be to head home, not to double back and assault GZ. On the other hand, we know from GZs statements to 911 dispatch, and the route he took from his truck to the scene of the killing, that his mindset was to not let a black kid he assumed was a burgler to get away.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)I did 5 years in security and some of that as a deputy. As a security guard you do not pursue or touch people, you observe and report.
Zimmeran escalated this whole situation and now wants to play the victim.
Don't play cop.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Zimmerman was the one who escalated this entire incident.
JI7
(89,264 posts)"how do you know were you there".
we have a list of fucking lies from the Zimmerman side from having his nose broken, trayvon saying "you got me" and other crap.
we have proof the thug zimmerman followed Trayvon.
trayvon's side is mostly consistent with what his girlfriend said, his going home to his house.
JI7
(89,264 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)Did you examine it?
JI7
(89,264 posts)if there are any, will be brought forth as evidence in court, till then "we" all have no idea whether Zimmerman's nose was broken.
The fact that the general public has not seen medical records , means exactly nothing. I'm sure the prosecutors have access to this information if it exists.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Oneka
(653 posts)that mugshot was taken after his trip to the police station on the night of the shooting.
If reports are accurate, it was taken several years ago after a different arrest.
K Gardner
(14,933 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)countingbluecars
(4,766 posts)to your question. She has the facts and evidence. The average person can draw some conclusions based on her charge of second degree murder.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)BOOM!
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Not that prosecutors are infallible, but at this stage of the game my guess would be that Zimmerman did commit a crime.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)like Stalking ,disregarding Real law enforcement , and Murder is a crime ,Just like it was 43 days ago.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)People wanted arrest and trial, and are confident of conviction on the facts as known.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)got root
(425 posts)to even use that term, 'lynching', considering the circumstances, is very revealing.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Florida ,land of the 2000 elections , Stand your ground for antebellum.
Raine
(30,540 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)He stalked and killed a lone, probably terrified, unarmed child doing no wrong to anyone. I don't believe in the presumption of innocence when guilt is staring you right in the face. Of course, I'd never be on a jury either.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)proposition. You don't get to choose when you will 'believe in the presumption of innocence.'
polly7
(20,582 posts)ever even serve on a jury . It's just my personal opinion, however legally wrong it may be.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)innocence raises as many questions as it lays to rest. To wit, if you do not believe in the presumption of innocence -- that the burden of proof rests with the state to prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt and that, until it does so, the defendant is presumed to be as innocent as the driven snow before the law -- do you bow down before the authority of the state such that, when it makes an accusation, you tend to believe the accusation? In short, do you believe persons accused are guilty until they prove themselves innocent (the presumption of guilt, I guess one could call it)?
polly7
(20,582 posts)will ruin the rest of his / her life.
Zimmerman admitted shooting an unarmed teen after being told not to follow him. That is all the proof I need to personally believe he is guilty of unlawfully killing Trayvon Martin. What else would you like me to say?
This is my opinion ........ and wth are you talking about 'bowing down' before anyone? No, not at all. I just occasionally use common sense to come up with my own personal opinion, sorry it seems to bother you so much. Now get off my case.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)of us, I too am working through this issue of presuming Zimmerman innocent even as I too heard what you heard, i.e., his admission. I think the point I was trying to make originally is valid though. To wit, the presumption of innocence applies to all or to none and is not a principle we get to apply to suit our personal whims.
Small side note: the dispatcher told Zimmerman that law enforcement didn't 'need' Z to follow Martin. That's different than ordering Z not to follow M, even though I don't think it is really germane to the issue at hand.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Yes ..."the presumption of innocence applies to all or to none and is not a principle we get to apply to suit our personal whims. ..." Absolutely, and I'm grateful for Zimmerman and anyone else that legally this is the case and the most important thing to remember. It would be horrible otherwise. For Trayvon Martin's family ... I just hope for whatever justice a judge or jury decides is fair.
spanone
(135,873 posts)otherwise, they wouldn't have brought charges.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Sure you are.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)A 17 year old girl is walking around a development where she is visiting friends. Some guy starts following her in a car. She starts walking faster to get away from him. He gets out of his car and starts following her on foot. What would this teenage girl think? This man reaches up to her and starts taunting and making lewd remarks to her as he approaches. The girl gives him a swift kick to the groin. Now, remember she attacks HIM first. He grabs her but she continues kicking him. Can he claim SYG and shoot her? After all, she attacked him first?
If you reverse the genders in this case, maybe you understand the situation better. I will admit, though, that it really shouldn't matter. A teenage boy has just as much of a right to protect himself as a teenage girl.
slamming his head on the concrete as well?
got root
(425 posts)if anyone would have a right to any self defense law, it would be the kid, Martin.
just going by what we know now. in fact, any more details that may or may not come out going forward will only incriminate him further.
you got it backwards.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)The answer to the second is clear to me - Shooting Trayvon Martin was wrong because it could have been avoided so easily. Zimmerman created a situation that he did not need to create. He provoked a confrontation that did not need to happen. It escalated into a physical fight that should never have happened. He could have, should have, kept his distance and stayed in his car.
People often do things that are legal but would be regarded by most as morally wrong. I think it is conceivable that a jury will determine that the use of deadly force was justifiable under the specific circumstances. What those exact circumstances are, I don't know and may never know. Evidently the prosecutor decided that there is a reasonable chance of getting a conviction, and I have to assume that decision was based on a whole lot of information that I haven't seen or heard in addition to the tons of largely unreliable things that I have seen and heard from various sources.
An acquittal may be the outcome of a trial. Also, I believe that juries in Florida can be given the option of returning a conviction on a lesser offense than the indictment carries. No matter what the outcome of the trial, I will maintain that what George Zimmerman did was wrong - On this my mind is firmly made up.
If he is acquitted, I am open to the idea that an acquittal could indicate a need for clarification in Florida's law on use of deadly force. I think California's laws are much clearer and more reasonable.
OTOH if he is convicted, that would weaken any claims that Florida's Stand Your Ground law is a license to kill at will.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)got root
(425 posts)and hopefully there will be enough momentum to carry it through.
we already had self defense laws in this country, SYG is a huge problem, and this case is a textbook example of why it is so.
sendero
(28,552 posts)All we said was that is plenty of evidence to support the fact that this needs to go to trial.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)Though your points are true.
shimonitanegi
(114 posts)some people still refuse to believe Martin's girl friend's account.
She said Zimmerman was following Martin.
BklnDem75
(2,918 posts)The only question is will he get away with it.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)Which is what I thought "General Discussion" was for. Do we have a moratorium on the discussion of all outstanding court cases and issues, too? Or just this one?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Triana
(22,666 posts)Zimmerman will damn sure get a fairer hearing in the matter than Trayvon Martin did. And there lies the injustice in the whole thing.