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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHeck of a job, Putin. Post Soviet Russian mortality rates rise.
Last edited Thu Sep 4, 2014, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/sep/02/dying-russians/?utm_source=nextdraft&utm_medium=emailIn the seventeen years between 1992 and 2009, the Russian population declined by almost seven million people, or nearly 5 percenta rate of loss unheard of in Europe since World War II. Moreover, much of this appears to be caused by rising mortality. By the mid-1990s, the average St. Petersburg man lived for seven fewer years than he did at the end of the Communist period; in Moscow, the dip was even greater, with death coming nearly eight years sooner.
Let's continue to sing his praises.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Perhaps the collapse led to less opportunity for health care.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)did nothing to improve?
No need to blame the dictator.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Not to defend him exactly. And probably he, like the US, spends money on the military first.
Still, wasn't there a big economic collapse at the beginning? And a lot of chaos.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)and it looks like he has done nothing to improve things.
Wonder if that 50 billion he spent on the Winter Olympics could have helped?
brooklynite
(94,589 posts)...it goes against my preconceptions that any aspect of US foreign policy is bad, so anyone we support is bad, so anyone fighting someone we support is good, so anyone supporting someone fighting someone we support is good, so.....
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Response to brooklynite (Reply #2)
chrisa This message was self-deleted by its author.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)"Are you going to sit there and criticize Putin after the US dropped nuclear bombs on Japan!?"
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)his domestic failings.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)FFS, we could have sent some arms to the Ukranian army, no need for us to send soldiers, but FFS, scum Putin only understands force...he'd back down over that.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Yesterday a jackass told me I couldn't use adjectives to describe Putin because I don't know him personally. Seriously. That is how far some have gone in their support. That in itself blows away the idea that they aren't really his supporters.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)Objectives: To investigate trends in Russian mortality for 1991-2001 with particular reference to trends since the Russian economic crisis in 1998 and to geographical differences within Russia.
Results: Mortality increased substantially after the economic crisis in 1998, with life expectancy falling to 58.9 years among men and 71.8 years among women by 2001. Most of these fluctuations were due to changes in mortality from vascular disease and violent deaths (mainly suicides, homicides, unintentional poisoning, and traffic incidents) among young and middle aged adults. Trends were similar in all parts of Russia. An extra 2.5-3 million Russian adults died in middle age in the period 1992-2001 than would have been expected based on 1991 mortality.
Conclusions: Russian mortality was already high in 1991 and has increased further in the subsequent decade. Fluctuations in mortality seem to correlate strongly with underlying economic and societal factors. On an individual level, alcohol consumption is strongly implicated in being at least partially responsible for many of these trends.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)according to the data. Its all seemingly related to a harsh life and lack of hope that things will get better.
It seems to suggest the opposite. Alcohol consumption is strongly implicated in mortality trends.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The most obvious explanation for Russias high mortalitydrinkingis also the most puzzling on closer examination. Russians drink heavily, but not as heavily as Czechs, Slovaks, and Hungariansall countries that have seen an appreciable improvement in life expectancy since breaking off from the Soviet Bloc. Yes, vodka and its relatives make an appreciable contribution to the high rates of cardiovascular, violent, and accidental deathsbut not nearly enough to explain the demographic catastrophe. There are even studies that appear to show that Russian drinkers live longer than Russian non-drinkers. Parsons discusses these studies in some detail, and with good reason: it begins to suggest the true culprit. She theorizes that drinking is, for what its worth, an instrument of adapting to the harsh reality and sense of worthlessness that would otherwise make one want to curl up and die.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)EDIT:
The article says that Russia has lower birth- and higher death-rates, because it is permeated with some depressing attitude.
I remember an interview a russian woman gave on TV. She said something like the Soviet Union stole their optimism. The Soviet Union had the attitude that a citizen has to sacrifice personal wealth and personal happiness for the well-being of the state. And even though the Soviet Union no longer exists, she said, people that lived in it are unable to shake off that indoctrination that it's your duty to sacrifice yourself and that you are not entitled to happiness.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)he cannot escape responsibility for not dealing with this issue.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)that the man who has lead the Government in some fashion since 1999 has nothing to do with the state of their society?
I guess that lets Brownback and Walker off the hook.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)That's like saying: "Now that racism is illegal in the US, there will be no more racism."
It's a psychological issue deeply ingrained into the russian mindset. As I wrote in my edit, it's probably the soviet mindset that personal happiness is not something you are entitled to. Country goes first.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)since Putin took over to make more people hopeless.
Or do you think the government can do nothing to improve peoples lives?
LisaL
(44,973 posts)It stayed about the same. Life expectancy in Russia has nothing to do with Putin.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)in Russia.
I guess it's the same here, why do we keep yammering about Reagenomics and the GOP attack on rights when the government doesn't effect anyone's life.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)QOL = Quality Of Life
Once again, Putin apologists need to listen to themselves. He has been in defacto or dejure power for 14 years. He is absolutely responsible for the Quality of Life in Russia at this point.
malaise
(269,028 posts)Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
edhopper
(33,582 posts)under the Kleptocracy.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)production, it's hard for quality of life to improve.
malaise
(269,028 posts)I well remember the collapsing banks and people losing all their savings.
Even Sachs jumped the neo-liberal ship after that mess.
Response to edhopper (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
LisaL
(44,973 posts)The mind boggles.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)Nothing in Russia is Putin's fault, yes?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Didntchaknow?
edhopper
(33,582 posts)we can't blame Bush for anything that happened here from 2000-2008.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)For the common folk, I mean. I think there are some wealthy people that live very well. But the regular people live in pretty bad apartments where sometimes there is water and plumbing and sometimes not. Same with electricity. Horrible dark winters. It's no wonder they have a huge alcohol problem. I have read about the kids that just live on the streets. They all sniff chemicals to kill the reality of what their awful lives are.
The Russian people have always had a bad time of it. Back generations and generations. Hard people living in a really hard land.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)[img][/img]
[img][/img]
And yet the lives of the common people have not improved. But we can't blame Putin for the way the country is run.
Absurd.
The Putin love here is delusional and sickening.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)$50 Billion was spent of which $30 Billion was stolen by the oligarchs and organized crime syndicates (of which there is considerable overlap).
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jun/18/putin-kraft-superbowl-ring-sochi-winter-olympics
According to a detailed report issued by Russian opposition leaders in May, businessmen and various consiglieres of Putin have stolen up to $30bn from funds intended for Olympic preparations. This has pushed the cost of the winter games, historically far less expensive than their summer counterpart to over $50bn, more than four times the original estimate. That $50bn price tag would make them the most expensive games in history, more costly than the previous twenty-one winter games combined.
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This is where trickle down is heading in the US by the way IMHO if we are not careful.
pampango
(24,692 posts)per capita GDP (which your graphs show).
Growing inequality in Russia
The most unequal of the developed countries is the USA. According to OECD data, its Gini coefficient is 0.38, well above the values in the UK (0.34), Japan (0.33), Germany (0.30) France (0.29) and Denmark (0.26). What is more, inequality in the USA has been increasing by an average of 0.5% per annum since the mid 1980s.
According to the United Nations Human Development Report 2010, the USAs Gini coefficient is even higher, at 0.41 (see Table 3 of the report). But this is still better than that of Russia, with a figure of 0.44, a figure that has markedly worsened over time ...
The Gini coefficient for Russia is the same as the average of the 39 developing countries with the lowest level of human development; and developing countries are generally much less equal than developed ones.
http://pearsonblog.campaignserver.co.uk/?p=1708
The Russian middle and working classes have the same problems as the Americans' only worse. The overall national GDP and per capita GDP are rising in both Russia and the US. The problem comes with the distribution of all this national wealth. In the US that distribution of income is terrible - the "most unequal of the developed countries" - but it is even worse in Russia. Russian oligarchs are every bit as greedy (and then some apparently) as America's 1%.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)He brought Russia out of the utter disaster of the post-Soviet years, which were some of the worst for Russians in the 20th century. During that time Putin wasn't president. Which is why his support is so high. The problems happened before he was elected.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Although if you just google "Russian lifespan" every chart is the same. Actually anyone with minimal knowledge of Russian history in the last 20 years knows what an utter disaster the post-Soviet years were. The collapse of both the economy and social welfare system tanked lifespan. Putin re-established some measure of order out of the political chaos.
Here is another:
Notice the enormous dip during the collapse of communism and its recovery during Putin's years (2000-today). The data in the OP might not be wrong, but the original poster probably misinterpreted it. Truthfully I didn't read the link because the claim that Putin has decreased overall life expectancy under his rule is indisputably wrong. Putin wasn't even in power until 2000, so he had nothing to do with the 80s or 90s.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)though linked are not the same:
In fact, if we zoom out from the early 1990s, where Parsons has located the Russian mortality crisis, we will see something astounding: it is not a crisisunless, of course, a crisis can last decades. While the end of the USSR marked one [of] the most momentous political changes of the twentieth century, that transition has been attended by a gruesome continuity in adverse health trends for the Russian population, writes Nicholas Eberstadt in Russias Peacetime Demographic Crisis: Dimensions, Causes, Implications, an exhaustive study published by the National Bureau of Asian Research in 2010. Eberstadt is an economist who has been writing about Soviet and Russian demographics for many years. In this book-length study, he has painted a picture as grim as it is mystifyingin part because he is reluctant to offer an explanation for which he lacks hard data...
And then there is the dying. In a rare moment of what may pass for levity Eberstadt allows himself the following chapter subtitle: Pioneering New and Modern Pathways to Poor Health and Premature Death. Russians did not start dying early and often after the collapse of the Soviet Union. To the contrary, writes Eberstadt, what is happening now is merely the latest culmination of ominous trends that have been darkly evident on Russian soil for almost half a century. With the exception of two brief periodswhen Soviet Russia was ruled by Khrushchev and again when it was run by Gorbachevdeath rates have been inexorably rising. This continued to be true even during the period of unprecedented economic growth between 1999 and 2008. In this study, published in 2010, Eberstadt accurately predicts that in the coming years the depopulation trend may be moderated but argues that it will not be reversed; in 2013 Russias birthrate was still lower and its death rate still higher than they had been in 1991. And 1991 had not been a good year.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Your link is to mortality rate.
The OP's title is gross deception of what has happened under Putin, which is a life expectancy explosion. You need to edit your title because it is a flat out lie.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)fixed
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)FSogol
(45,488 posts)exceeds the quality of us decadent Putin-hating Americans. Shouldn't be long....
Amonester
(11,541 posts)FSogol
(45,488 posts)edhopper
(33,582 posts)or just comrade spies?
[img][/img]
and there's this:
[img][/img]
FSogol
(45,488 posts)Who wouldn't be?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Chernobyl
Nuclear power plants and nuclear pollution.
Russia has it bad.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)it doesn't look like cancer is a rising cause of death, which would be a result of Chernobyl.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Cesium in heart muscles causes heart attacks, for instance.
Russia has a bad case of nuclear radiation. They have been bloody loose with their handling of nuclear by-products. Then Chernobyl blew up. That's the truth which many will deny and downplay, but the fact is radiation effects have been covered up by governments the world over. Why? Because it's big business and war making rolled into one.
edhopper
(33,582 posts)but we would have to see stronger effects closer to Chernobyl, like in Ukraine. (I have no data either way.
But the relentless pollution that Russia and the Soviets produced might also enter into it.