At least, that's not how we do it in Michigan. We actually listen to that guy from Kentucky:

"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend." - Abraham Lincoln

So, rather than bomb the poor schmoes to stone age, why not send them a credit card and a Sears catalogue. Let them choose something nice and we'll pay for it, even the shipping. It's cheaper than War without End. It goes better with a lighter conscience, too.

putting someone on Capitol One's marketing list constitutes cruel and unusual punishment!

You are definitely right about that.

But, does anybody really think that Pres O could extend a hand in friendship without pulling back a nub?

enslaved girls.

sarcasm off.

repeat.
Saddam
Bin Laden
ISIS
etc.

Are we done voting for these Bank/Wall St. puppets?

I am no longer voting for any candidate that takes money from either.

Anyone else is ignored, marginalized or politically destroyed.

he doesn't like war but somehow finds himself in the middle of war/kinetic action all the time. If hes not supporting the Islamic rebels in Syria, he supporting Kiev govt's right to bomb eastern Ukraine.

I got into politics because I was so disgusted with the Iraq war, I supported Obama and donated to him because I though he was truly anti war, but I guess I found out the hard way that nobody is really anti war in Washington. Its all about lesser evils

a dumb war. And in the light of what happened in Libya, continuing to support the Jihadists is dumb. I will give it to Obama, he fights his wars differently from Bush. Bush uses expensive US soldiers, Obama uses US air force and proxy fighters on the ground. Sorta like an evolved Reagan.

Would I have approved US going into Rwanda? No. Sometimes bad things happen, there was no way the US could have known anything bad was going to happenan d just US warning the govt over there would have been enough to prevent the violence. Some economic assistance maybe but even as an African, I still say hell NO to going into Rwanda.

The drone strikes in Pakistan were dumb.

The strikes in Libya were dumb.

Re-entering Iraq was very dumb.

This war in Syria is the absolute dumbest. So very dumb.

was stay the hell out of Rwanda. The death toll would have been much higher had we employed sophisticated munitions, and it wouldn't have made a ding dong damn's worth of difference on the outcome. Plus, the number of Americans who died in Rwanda fighting a tribal war that has surely been going on since before the US was a nation would have been greater than the zero that it was with staying out.

Sometimes, you just have to get the hell out of the way of belligerents who can find no other solution than fighting. We can't be the world's policeman or it's babysitter.

It does matter what he did then, and all the American lives saved by NOT getting involved in someone's fight were well worth it. We are not obligated to make the world suck less.

Yeah, "easy" military options, where have I heard that before?

but he acknowledges that his inaction cost many African lives. Every choice has a cost, including doing nothing. Clinton learned that lesson the hard way.

I find it very sad that there are people who don't think they are obligated to help make the world suck less. It's dangerous thinking, whether it's a Wall Street banker who doesn't think about the cost of his/her financial decisions on others, or an isolationist who doesn't think about the cost of that isolationism.

And just about every time we've tried since WWII, we've screwed up royally. We cannot 'give' democracy to people who are unwilling to hold it, and unable to understand it. All we can do is offer an imperfect example, along with a better ideal, and if they want to become the change they want to see, then they have that opportunity.

Sometimes it takes a great statesman to do this. I don't see anybody in the Middle East who is a potential Nelson Mandela. Without that, all efforts to make a particular part of the world suck less are doomed.

What did the American dead in Vietnam gain us? Or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any other misadventure we choose to wander into blindly?

"Yeah, "easy" military options, where have I heard that before?"

From Pres. Clinton probably... in regards to the air campaign over Kosovo he launched when getting involved in someone else's fight (because it "matters what he did then"?).

Who knows what he would have done if the name Monica Lewinsky was not known to every American who read or watched the news? Maybe because Rwanda happened before we knew that he was still a horn dog is why we wisely stayed out of that hellhole.

And Rwanda's a red herring. War?Against who, one or the other ethnic group? "We'll punish your genocide with another genocide?" Maybe we'd just bomb Kinshasa and call it a day (That's the capitol of Rwanda, since I'll bet you didn't know) See, there's a big difference between a humanitarian action, and a war. Our efforts to get the yazidis off that mountain was a humanitarian action, but was not war. A hypothetical intervention in the Rwanda genocide would have been such an actuion, and not a war. Mounding Iraqi and Syrian towns with bombs? That's war, not humanitarian intervention.

Rwanda's capital is Kigali.

And he/she was so smug about this.

though not entirely true.

THe world is a complicated place and there is a lot of evil out there. There are just causes. I just think that the quagmire we're caught up in now is a self perpetuating cycle of violence and war.

Forge ahead.

That really puts it in perspective.

that fucking rocks.

I mean, he wouldn't bomb his own people would he?

or the exact opposite, which one of them ceases to be a Muslim?

That's the logic the RW would use.

But, then, I've been paying close attention to the rise of global terrorism since the early 80s.

Key regional powers have finally been convinced (thank Kerry) that this is THEIR region and THEIR culture to fight for and preserve and that this effort marks the transitioning of US involvement in the region. We will back them up in measured ways when needed, but, they have to become the leaders of the movement to contain their crazies. This is a giant step towards that goal.

Kerry has accomplished more than 99.5% of Americans seem to realize.

and, frankly.....narrowminded AND shortsighted.

cleaning up Bush's shit. I don't know why ANYONE would think that process would not be messy, smelly, and really suck.

We are returning to a Clinton-level of engagement in Iraq, and I think the main difference here is that we finally....finally....have ME countries willing to engage in long-term strategies for containment. We have actual ME allies. THAT is epic.

that Kerry has been doing and connecting it with his cumulative efforts of the last 3 decades.

Simplistic and rigid black and white thinking that leads them to believe in the righteousness of their false equivalencies and short sightedness.

And nothing he's done since earning that award, including bombing terrorists out of their hidey holes, is in contradiction with that principle. The fact that some people have used that award to preemptively neuter this president from taking strong action when needed, doesn't negate the fact that there are bad actors with whom you can never achieve "diplomacy and cooperation".

Quite frankly, if the award is the problem, I wish he'd call a press conference, give it back, and tell 'em to shove it up their collective asses.

What I am loving right now is how he has faced the Muslim question head on. By having made this most recent alliance it presents as a feel the fear and do it anyway event.

I think that is courageous.


Love, Peace and Shelter.
~ littlemissmartypants

and Yassir Arafat got a Nobel Peace Prize, it seemed to lose all meaning. An occasional Mother Teresa or Lech Walesa did not lift the Prize out of the muck that it had sunk into.

Accdg to Wiki I was only partially right:

"The 2009 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. President Barack Obama for his "extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples".[1] The Norwegian Nobel Committee announced the award on October 9, 2009, citing Obama's promotion of nuclear nonproliferation[2] and a "new climate" in international relations fostered by Obama, especially in reaching out to the Muslim world.[3][4]"

Although I have not been personally privy to the conversations, I believe that they have occurred.

Symbolic "inflamitory myopothy" is hazardous to society, becomes the evil eye.

Binary decisions, especially of this magnitude, should be based upon an observation of patterns. Not every decision should be based on either/or arguments. I think, it is best to start from the goal or, from the ending, as some say.

Think from the ending.
Just think. Period.

Love, Peace and Shelter.
~ littlemissmartypants

Just in case you missed it because it came in after you posted your response to me. Pretty much made my head explode to say the least!

(from the NY Times article you linked)
"Supporters of arms control, as well as some of President Obama’s closest advisers, say their hopes for the president’s vision have turned to baffled disappointment as the modernization of nuclear capabilities has become an end unto itself."

... I got nothin' other than WTF???!!!1! Am I disillusioned? Hardly... to be disillusioned one needs to see through the illusion. There is such a hurricane force shitstorm of illusions going on right now I would be lucky to see my hand in front of my face! Thank you for posting this response leftstreet

It wasn't awarded on anything concrete he actually did.

lays down and never protects his country because he refuses to use any military might. It is not about that.

This is so dumb. You really think Obama should say he's for peace and that's why he's not going to do anything? He's going to do something where he considers the US's security requires it. You can disagree with him about whether there is a need for that. But harping on about the Peace Prize is irrelevant.

You're finally getting those bombs in Syria you were panting for last year. How do you feel?

On Tue Sep 23, 2014, 08:53 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Syria is the 7th Muslim country bombed by the Nobel Peace Laureate.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025575172

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

If this isn't flame-baiting, I don't know what is.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Sep 23, 2014, 09:25 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Truth is hardly flame baiting.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation:

Facts are facts.

Dispute him if you can.

Leave it.



Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Yes it is flame bate but two other important items are going on here too. First: The OP is true and the American citizenry should be having an honest conversation on this truth. Agree or disagree with our POTUS'S actions and why do we have such a position? Is our POTUS being hypocritical to the Nobel Prize he received for his efforts in the reduction of nuclear weapon stockpiles WHY or WHY NOT? We SHOULD be having this conversation here in DU, not squelching it on a sole 'merit' of it's being flamebait. Secondly many of us come to DU to gain an enlightenment that is impossible to get through the MSM. When a propagandized 'freeper' 'attacks' me and my support for our POTUS, when a family member asks me my thoughts I want to be able to respond with solid well considered facts and reasoning germane to the topic. WHERE ELSE should I seek such enlightenment? Leave this post unhidden! Give me and those like me seeking the collective wisdoms contained here at DU a chance at this enlightenment. Thank You DU, and thank you very much for what you do for us.
chris 'chknltl' chick
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Actually, ISIS has the Crusades script down pretty well...convert 'em or kill 'em.
Our Crusades are more about energy and $$$$.

[font style=color:#FF0000;]"Here's what I think the truth is: We are all addicts of fossil fuels in a state of denial, about to face cold turkey.
And like so many addicts about to face cold turkey, our leaders are now committing violent crimes to get what little is left of what we’re hooked on." [/font]
Kurt Vonnegut

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Is that sig line going to change if I revisit this post?

War is Peace.

K&R

Do you think Obama has a problem with Islam?

if the US was bombing Jews?

I think it might be noted in the news. The same as it would be noted if we were bombing Central American countries that have large Catholic populations.

It's a distinctive feature of the population of the region. Should they not mention Kurds, either, or is that too ...whatever it was that prompted you to pose such an odd and vaguely disturbing question?

Don't you think that's an odd way to frame current events?

If we were bombing a county in South America what would you think about a headline "Barack Hussein Obama bombs Christian Country"

Would you have a problem with that kind of framing?

Like I said "bombing Kurds" or "bombing Christian extremists", say, would normally be something noted as a point of reference about who and what is getting bombed.

"Barack Hussein Obama authorizes troops against Christian militants in Idaho" would certainly be mentioned if a bunch of fundies got out of hand in Idaho, for example, and I would expect the media to point out that they are Christian fundies and that they are in ... Idaho.

Now the framing makes more sense, it's Glenn being Glenn.

for your internet experience if you hate him that much, then you won't get exposed to "Glenn being Glenn".

I don't follow Glen Beck because I don't like him or what he has to say, ever. Maybe you could try that method with this Glenn that you dislike.

You don't have to get your blood pressure up, "Glenn" doesn't get hits, and everyone goes about their life as they did before.

See, I can make all kinds of assumptions from one nanoscale data point, too.

I was actually stimulated to post this thread due to an item I found in Google News, not some tweet. It struck me at that moment how gaping is the canyon between what I voted for and what I got.

"When a wise man points at the moon, the fool stares at the wise man's finger."
- Sufi proverb

I decided to edit out my speculations, because it really isn't my place to judge, though I'm pretty sure my mind isn't the only one that went there.

and the mounting of attacks against the west.

would you prefer he wait and do nothing?

Possibly because Greenwald himself didn't actually win that 2014 Pulitzer we're supposed to think he did:

I see you and your detesting of Greenwald is here again. I thought I had you on ignore. Let me correct that mistake.

Not because you hate Greenwald, but because anyone that offers legitimate criticism of any single thing the US does because President Obama is in office is ridiculed.

Glenn will get his prize.

p.s. speaking of prizes Whisp deserves a post-mortem DUzy for that classic

...nor do I recall President Obama campaign on those principles.

He campaigned on withdrawing troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Which he is.

Maybe the OP should have campaigned harder for Dennis Kucinich.

Now do you understand?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

Shall we wait until ISIS has invaded our streets before we engage them. I support my President. He has masterfully put together a coalition of Muslim countries who are working with us and don't be surprised if more join this noble and necessary cause. Great work President Obama!

Once more, I take great solace in knowing that, after 2016, President Hillary Clinton will continue this important struggle against these evil anti-women, anti-gay, anti-Semitic and anti-freedom haters!

They have vowed to engage in similar attacks.

is all we have anymore. So we basically cheer when we have the ball and shout and boo when the other team scores or has the ball. It is by design and it works, we ensure that it works, as evidenced here on DU. We have our own, actually espousing the "With us or against us" rhetoric.

awarding the President the peace prize. Honestly, the Nobel committee should have waited until he was at the end of his second term (or out of office). He hadn't done anything at that point (other than not being Bush) to warrant being awarded the prize. And at this point, I still don't think he deserved it. (And I bet he doesn't, either.)

Knee jerking without even bothering to access the crisis..

Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren, all well respected leaders, have access and know a hellava lot more about this than those on the internet who can't grasp this isn't being run by the bush-cheney neocon crowd.

"I think we need to attack ISIS. I'm really concerned about them."

"Is the bombing of ISIS justified? I say yes. And I hope President Obama has every possible success in getting allies to join with us, some with ground troops effected inside Syria."