was so underhanded in nabbing Ukraine, why didn't we go full force and arm the government and support them when the fascist scum Putin invaded the country? Maybe it's because the people of Ukraine wanted to break ties with Putin...maybe we should stop posting rticles by nitwits who have never been to the country and are clueless about its history.

off the scale.

On the side of Russia...seriously, communists are good, those against it are fascists.

More of a corrupt Oligarchy not too dissimilar from our own system.

A majority of them still identify with the Communist Party...but God forbid facts should shatter your delusions. I think I'll put you on ignore...you've never responded to any of my posts except to show your ignorance about the Ukraine..bye.

Oh, that's right, all volunteers, all wonderful pro-Russian Ukranians, no help whatsoever from Putin, they didn't kill people, they weren't armed by Putin, no, they all were just ordinary people...who didn't shoot down a plane, either...such lunacy needs to be ignored...adios..

help the rest of us understand what those claims are based on.

I take it you admit that no one died in Crimea, so clearly the people there who made the decision for fear of being attacked by Kiev, as the rest of the east eventually was, they decided by REFERENDUM to leave Ukr, they were in fact, DRIVEN OUT of that country by the Kiev Coup govt's passing of laws that demonstrated what would be in store for the Eastern parts of the country IF they didn't get out before it was too late.

So the FACT is Crimeans were driven out of Ukr, voted to annex to Russia to protect themselves, and were proven to have made a wise decision since NO ONE DIED there, NO TROOPS were shooting people or dropping bombs on them. THAT IS A FACT no matter how anyone tries to deny it.

The Kiev Govt then proved Crimeans to have made a wise decision when they, shamefully, sent in the military to attack their own people, killing thousands of innocents, destroying the economy and the infrastructure etc and accomplishing nothing other than horrendous human suffering.

Now we are hearing little about Ukr, unless we seek out news. The Kiev coup government is in turmoil, western Ukranians want an end to the military assaults on the rest of the country, they do not want their sons being sent to kill their own people.

It was such a spectacular failure that it is no surprise no one in the Western media is talking much about it anymore.

If you have FACTS to counter any of this, then please provide them, otherwise your comments are merely rants which have nothing to offer in terms of the facts.

like Russia did before with the Tatar people indigenous to Crimea and bring in more Russian nationals. Who broke the SIGNED Budapest agreement to respect sovereign nations borders by invading that sovereign nation. That would be Russia. Who broke international law and blockaded the Ukrainian navy in port and then stormed and seized those ships? That would be your buddies in Russia. Who supplied troops and military equipment when all the rebels had was museum pieces and they were very close to being encircled and defeated? Again Russia. Who opened a new front to the south from the Russian border with tanks ad APC's were no rebel activity had been reported and tried to take Mariupol? Oh that's right, Russia again. They will not stop until they have the entire south to give them a land bridge to Crimea and then Moldova. They want all of that shoreline for off shore rights and to weaken Ukraine by taking all of the sea access they now have.

Who keeps breaking the SIGNED cease fire by attacking the worn down Ukraine military at the Donetsk airport, Mariupol and Shchastya?
That would be those great peacmekers after they figured out they require the airport, port and main power plant that they have not taken prior to the SIGNED cease fire.

DURec

It creates an interesting shlock-funny-horror fusion thing.

Is that what we were, certainly Bush supporters thought so, when we on the Left opposed his illegal invasion of Iraq? Were we really 'America haters' after all? I thought we saying that the country we love was being harmed by the Bush takeover of our government? Was I wrong after all?

Two thoughts, one head. It's easy.

No, the article doesn't state that America is evil. It strongly implies that we are to blame for Putin's mismanagement of his country and region.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

..."and region".

So you are saying that Putin is in charge of managing the entire region?

This seems a bit inconsistent. Which is it: He should keep his nose out of Ukraine; vs. It's his responsibility to manage the region?

I don't see how America can be blamed for talking to another country. Is Russia really threatened by us? How? I don't see it.

It's too bad Gorbachev isn't still in charge. The world would already be a much different -and better- place, I bet.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

...and region... is... incorrect?

C'mon. Just say it: "I made a mistake." or "I misspoke". It ain't that hard.

Betcha won't though.

I didn't mean that the region belongs to him, only that he considers it that way.

Putin acts like he wants to resurrect another U.S.S.R. He is so last century whereas Gorbachev was willing to look to a better future.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

...you have shifted the conversation to Gorbachev and what might have been, vs. Putin and what is.

You, like many here, try and make any discussion on this topic devolve into "You love Putin!" vs. "I hate Putin!"

But you're the one who said he mismanaged his country and region. Why not just own your words, or admit that you misspoke?

Oh well, fat chance. TTFN.

that the government is doing things that are wrong. So why are we seeing this Right Wing talking point on this forum?

And no, that article doesn't say we are to blame for Putin's 'mismanagement' of his country. Read it again. Our government however IS responsible for the tragedy that occurred in Ukraine. There is so much proof of that, I don't bother to read the denials anymore. That however doesn't mean 'America is evil', it means our government has been leading this country into wrong wars for decades now and something needs to be done to stop it.

Take Iraq, for example. Or Libya. Or Afghanistan. Or Viet Nam, for that matter.

and he gets his premise wrong from the first line onward...

There has been plenty of news and reporting coming out of the region...If I can find it, Mr. Smith sure as hell should be able to...

As for the rest of my rebuttal, just find some of my previous posts whenever this cookie-cutter column springs up...

opinions about what went on in Ukraine? Differing opinions based on evidence of US/EU meddling in Ukraine's affairs? Helping topple an Elected Government?

This isn't about Obama this is about Neocons Meddling again with terrible consequences for the people of a sovereign country. Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Yemen.

It's all connected. Big Business and Oil and profits for the MIC.

That's a legitimate issue for discussion on a Democratic Message Board. On a Republican Message Board I'm sure there would be people calling each other names like "Putinistas," etc. One likes to think of our fellow Democrats being open to different opinions on International Issues when our US Policies have fucked up so much and cause war, war and death, destruction and dislocation of millions of innocent people.

And Putin invaded Eastern Ukraine because Obama wanted to protect Chevron's profits?

I mean, really, how the fuck do people come up with such crap?

and the US.

It's pathetic to watch.

when they minute they grabbed power there, they passed laws which frightened the people there into voting to protect themselves. It was a wise decision for THEM as any rational person would admit. The writing Crimea saw on the Wall, turned out to be true, when that same Coup Kiev Govt attacked with brutal military force THEIR OWN PEOPLE, killing thousands of innocent people. Too bad the rest of Eastern Ukr didn't escape fast enough, as Crimea did. No one died in Crimea, thankfully. Not a shot fired. So stop with that talking point, the world knows what happened there.

Now, maybe Putin WANTED Crimea. If he did, Kiev HANDED it to him with their brutal and criminal treatment of their own people. In the end, they had to STOP because you CAN'T BOMB people into LOVING you. And the World was outraged at the horrific attack by a government trying to gain legitimacy, on ITS OWN PEOPLE, and because now Western Ukrainians have been demonstrating also AGAINST KIEV.

Let's just accept facts, denying them never makes them go away.

The fact is even if Putin wanted Crimea, he never had to lift a finger due to the ADMITTED stupidity of the Coup Govt in Kiev. They drove those people into Putin's willing hands. Stupid is too kind a word for what Kiev did at that point.

Yes the silence has been deafening - particularly since that aircraft was blown out of the air.

or something. According to the DU Putin apologist contingent.

Think about the Repug effort to ensure that Obama is a failure no matter what and no matter who is hurt, then read this from the article:
"There, in a sentence, is my optimism hiding in the pessimism. One loves to see American foreign policy failures—apart from all the unnecessary suffering, of course—because one dislikes the policy and thinks vastly better can be achieved once policy direction changes."

I mostly agree with the article, but does that mean I am just as much a potential traitor as Repugs trying to undermine the President at every turn?

Putin keeps getting away with these land grabs to protect ethnic Russians. No one stops him so he just keeps going, WHO is next?

...for those who believe corporations are people.

Most importantly: Thank you for a great OP and article, Karmadillo. It's not as if the two sides of the neocon/neoliberal coin are all there is, its possessor insists that we go along with his game as if Empire for the benefit of the Few were the only game in town.