voting. Nihilism while serving the goals of the rightwing is the antithesis of progressivism.

I should have done that at the beginning. Such arguments are far from progressive. Nihilism? Perhaps that's it.

Would have to agree with you!

We need to get as many people to the polls as possible!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025646760

I am working on my county's voter protection and GOTV efforts

I rarely read Huff Post nowadays. I am so disgusted by republicans I am going to early vote instead if waiting for election day.

You didn't post any examples, so I can't evaluate their relevance, but I think maybe it has to do with the places on the internet you are going.

I let DU digest them for me. I have to work for a living still, so most of my time on the Internet involves research for my current work. I see political stuff posted here and follow links to original sources, though.

But, I do have my own political website. You can visit it at the precinct link in my signature line, if you like. It's very local, though, so it doesn't have much to do with national politics.

would be? Thanks!

That's my style. So, sorry. My opinions, which the opening post of this thread represents, are based on cumulative information.

But rather to stir up bull$hit.

A question for you: based upon general empirical knowledge and observation, you've never had an opinion that was strong even though you couldn't recite the facts that led you this position?

Really? That would make you nearly an android.

it would be: "... without reciting THE OTHER PEOPLES' OPINIONS that led you to this position."

That's what MM, rightfully, won't do.

Because I have no idea what the hell it was you wrote (or why you responded to me).

claim "both sides" are the same here. Bait, alert, rinse and repeat.

issue". Dudes, we vote more than you do. Dems would be nowhere without us. Amazing this even has to be said here.

And I am getting very tired of the apparent anti-GOTV propaganda campaign going on here.

over "anti-GOTV propaganda". You are like a warrior on the topic.

Especially those who trot out Breitbart-style tactics to lie about Democrats.

Real progressives don't denigrate people who advocate GOTV or get out there knocking on potential Democratic voters doors.

You disagree with it.

If you are evaluating what is being talked about on the internet at large by viewing it mainly through the prism of what gets reposted at DU you are definitely getting a distorted view. I wouldn't worry about it much. As far as I can tell there is no more of the "don't bother voting" rhetoric than there usually is. Our biggest problem this cycle seems to be a lack of excitement on the part of Independents and people who aren't very engaged politically. Please note this is not the same as those who ARE engaged and bitching about how the two parties are both the same so don't bother. I'm talking about people who were excited to get out there and make it happen in 2008 due to the novelty of Obama but are only dimly aware there even is an election this fall, and don't care much either way.

and did not want to say:

Last edited Mon Oct 13, 2014, 07:35 AM - Edit history (1)

An example which has already been objected to:

"Electing more Democrats... accomplishes nothing good." Glenn Greenwald.

That's right--Glenn, who has worked for the Kochs, and apparently does not want people like Elizabeth Warren to be elected, said this....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/15/1262880/-Glenn-Greenwald-advocates-letting-Republicans-destroy-the-country#

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025642630#post5

Your perfect reply:

All part of the plan ...

Posted earlier:

And "Mission Accomplished" ...

could be heard whispered throughout the land. (It seems)

GOP: "Government doesn't work" ... Check!

Libertarians (right and left): "Government is evil" ... Check!

Tea Party: "Government doesn't work and there is no difference between establishment republicans and establishment Democrats" ... Check!

"Liberals/Progressives": "Government is evil and there is no difference between establishment republicans and establishment Democrats" ... Check!

The media has played this narrative on a 7-day, 24-hour loop.

Result: Only 15% of the American people pay close attention to the only mechanism for change.

Nicely played, Oligarchs!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025642630#post14

That piece and the posts objecting to it on KOS, deserve a full read. The post was objected to here on the basis of personality and not the political issue and real life effects, which would lead to some honest and intelligent discussion. And I posted the poll from the KOS link:

Poll results on question:



http://www.dailykos.com/poll/1708001/vote

29% wanna stand by and watch government, and many of us, burn.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025642630#post24

An excellent reply to me:

I voted 'No." But now it's up to 27.6%. WTF.

People are wrongwrongwrong.There will be NO revolution.

They will turn this country into a big version of current tax havens -- plantation life for the rich with an archipelago of little Dubai's -- namely, entertainments, tours, two-leveled transportation, infrastructure, and service/servants quarters. No schools or medical care except for the rich.

How could our own sell us out?!! Goddammit!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025642630#post47

None of us object to saying what we think here on what's essential, as you brought out in your reply. I read the 'don't vote, will not vote for various causes or to have a revolution, etc.' posts every day.

The fact that we are past the primary season isn't discouraging the don't vote contingent anywhere. There are many reasons given, but it's all about the media atmosphere, which has been cultivated from all sides with millions spent every month.

Our vote is being pooped on while the Teabaggers will be there to vote. At least they believe in voting for themselves, and work daily to deny us a vote. Who is dumber?

Their vote suppression work proves just how very powerful our vote is. For that reason alone, even if one does not care about those who died to get us the vote, I think people should make the effort to vote against suppression and oppression by the purveyors of Jim Crow and feudalism.

But that's just me and a few select friends like you.

You really should reconsider whom you associate with ... I've been told I make DU suck!

Sid

This place is often about venting and not looking for solutions. IRL, people don't have time for this. I come here to hopefully find other views to refine mine, to express myself better. Sorry if my post to your post may feel like an attack to you, too. Just stating that we cannot post examples of other DUers.

AND they GOTV too. Even if thy obsess about Chem trails and the war on drugs, THEY do the right thing and don;t sit on their asses or encourage others to.

Because I've just started to notice the same thing....the orginal poster is correct...I believe there is a campaign to discourage progressive voters because the 99%/47% that Romney didn't care about is waking up and smelling the coffee (gaslighting) the conservatives have been up to

Fuck me, this place is getting flat out fucking ridiculous at this point.

It has lots and lots of posts where people say there's no difference between the parties, and that voting is pointless. Saying things like "This is not a problem that will be fixed by electing anybody"

MM's been around long enough to avoid taking your call-out alert bait. So he's not going to provide examples. Since this isn't my OP, I'm not as concerned about getting locked out of the thread.

He spoke of the internet at large, not DU. When I mentioned that he provided no examples I had no thought whatsoever that he was talking about DU because THAT ISN'T WHAT HE SAID. Your accusation is offensive and rude.

Actually providing examples is frequently considered a call-out, resulting in a hide.

Not on DU. Thus examples should have been no problem to provide. Your accusation is still rude, and for the same reason.

"You see it all over the Internet. People blogging and posting that our vote in 2014 doesn't really matter, because there's no material difference between Democratic candidates and their Republican counterparts."

I don't see it all over the internet either. I also wondered what websites and blogs he was talking about, since they had moved him to write this piece. While GOTV is a great and honorable goal, I don't care for a declaration of some truth that the author does not really know to be fact. That's gossip level stuff. Don't say you see it all over the internet if you really have not. I think that's fairly basic. And if you do that, don't get upset when people ask you where you saw it. For God's sake. Assuming someone is being honest and accurate is not an insult.

fucking laughable.

It's a frequent exploit of the jury system employed to get people locked out of threads when you don't like what they're saying.

I'm not saying your post is asking him to do that, or if you are calling him a troll due to some older charges at him at DU.

But there is a pattern of some taunting posters into doing so to get their post hidden if they respond with examples of what they've read here. It's a well known tactic to make the one being targeted appear to be dishonest.

Knowing that they are constrained from such posts, as the taunters know what will happen if they bait a poster into it, the dishonesty often falls on the taunter and not the one being taunted.

Feel free to look at the example from KOS that I posted here, and replies to it plus the poll. That is a popular internet site, that many posters refer to here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025646840#post102

We really need to discuss the issues and not each other, or celebrities in the media, which is owned by Oligarchs. One might infer you are taunting the OP writer. I want to see it as miscommunication and that you are asking that in good faith. Peace Out.

"Progressives" are the ones guilty of this foolish mentality in your OP.

I think it's pure insanity to think that allowing republicans to win this time will help pull the democratic party further to the left, but I have been reading that time after time right here on DU. I don't think that all of those who are pushing this are progressives. I think some who started this BS have never been progressives. Some my be right wing trolls, others libertarians, but sadly a lot of real progressives have bought into the BS.

All the crap now on the MSM is pure right wing lies trying to get democrats to simply stay home and not waste their time voting since, according the the MSM, republicans have already won. More BS.

DUers seem to love to make sweeping claims such as yours without any supporting evidence.

Visit FDL or alternet or any of many other political websites. Or just hang around here. You'll see those arguments aplenty. Anyone who is paying attention has seen them.

of what you claim. You can't provide a link, you're just making empty claims. I can post lots of links to progressive websites encouraging voting and GOTV.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/10/1335550/-NC-Sen-Charlotte-GOTV-for-Kay-Hagan-update

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/09/1335466/-None-of-us-want-DOOOOM-so-get-off-that-sideline-and-engage

I just checked several more liberal websites from the list of the top 100, and they all had GOTV articles. FDL is an exception not the rule, and GOTV posts here massively outnumber posts discouraging voting.

I'm not sure why you're so vested in making this claim.

you can create one.

We can all post selected links. I prefer writing my opinion as my opinion. It's based on my own observations over time. Your opinion might differ from mine. Quite a few of those GOTV posts are mine, as well. It's my thing. I'm all about GOTV for this election and every other election. This thread starts with one of those GOTV posts.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

I found just only two articles talking about the mid-terms, one talking about how Orman looked like he was losing ground and another talking about how it was bad that Democrats weren't as enthusiastic. Eh...this seems more like the preoccupation some people have with the Greens, a lot of concern over something that's barely there.

An interesting question would be why most sites don't talk more about voting - particularly in primaries - or getting involved in local politics. There seems to be a dearth of that.

why can't you just get with the program and add your disparaging comments about progressives, despite any REAL evidence to support the OP, Buzz Killington?

Can't recall any articles discouraging voting.

What I do see is deserved criticism of some of our politicians, and their failure to stand up for the poor and working class. Which could be translated by some to mean, "Obama hatred" and "discouraging people to vote".

The Florida Democratic Party does more to discourage the vote than any website. The rarely recruit candidates except for a few insiders and recycled former republicans. They refuse to support progressives, and in some cases actively undermine them.

They couldn't even find a challenger for my congressional district, against a mentally challenged repuke.

A single bit of trash hardly qualifies as "litter".

instead of insisting others do the work for you.

the Limbaughciles are conservative.

Within their ranks are a fair number of losers who aren't getting a voice in the established party so are finding their own frustrated, ego-driven voice. And, there are a fair number of nihilists who have just given up-- I'll admit to having those feelings far too often. There probably are a fair number of misguided idealists who just don't get that part about shitting where you eat, or forsaking the perfect for the possible.

But, what's the point of living if you just give up. Congress is up for grabs next month and while I can't affect the whole country, I can affect my district by helping campaign for my Congressman. And, there's a state Assembly candidate who's a pretty good guy I'm working for.

I'm getting over a cold and feel like shit, but this afternoon I'm knocking on doors for both of them. If I can help get Bishop re-elected and Schilero elected, it will have been worth it. If one or both loses, at least I gave it a shot. No excuses either way-- I did my part.

on edit-- a lot of them are trolls, often paid.

Not trying is simply abandonment of hope.

I'm an extremely red spot in Blue Jersey but I've been out every weekend working to flip our District and ensure Booker stays in the Senate.

I think you are going to be PUMPED up.

What the media puts out there has NOTHING to do with how angry Republicans are at the clown's driving the 'Cray Cray Train' right now. I'm talking people that supported Huntsman in the 2012 primary . . .

They is as pissed as those of us on the Left!

Thank you thank you thank you for your efforts!

Anyone engaged in this election - knows -

It's not all doom and gloom.

Teabaggers ARE going to vote. IN. DROVES.

Dems have NO excuse not to also do the same. And we have NO chance of gaining a thing if most Dems lay back and whine or become complacent about this or any mid-term.

G O T V!

... one who does not believe there is much difference on ECONOMIC and business issues. That said, I'm going to vote in every election and I am not going to vote for any Republican ever.

I do believe the lack of difference between the parties on the ISSUES THAT AFFECT THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS (i.e. not gay marriage and not abortion) is why voter turnout is so low. Sue me.

gotten fully behind: Raising the Minimum Wage and Paycheck Fairness and Extending U/C and the Democratic (President Obama's) Jobs Bill ... Or, Democrats have obstructed the same. Yep ... no difference between the party's on those economic/business issues that directly affect broad swathes of the working class. Right?

.... developments after decades of NAFTA, China and letting the banks do as they please. And nibbles at the fringes also, lets don't forget that.

Sadly there seems to be a lack of "knowledge" for some when it comes to facts.

those saying that know very well that the critique is false. What they want to say is simply "the Democratic Party is not as progressive as I would like to see it ... on a narrow band of issues."

But then, they would have to acknowledge that the Democratic Party is NOT the same as the republican party on the majority of issues that directly affect the working classes; and, that they, themselves, do not represent the median position of the Democratic Party. That has to be troubling.

The reason 2010 was such a debacle was that we all did our part and elected a Democratic House, Senate and President by overwhelming margins and got What? for it.

Lilly Ledbetter (already passed) and health insurance reform without a public option. We still showed up, but the mushy middle--which could have been ours for a generation!--did not.

You might want to check this out:

http://pleasecutthecrap.com/obama-accomplishments/

What is your explanation for the shellacking in 2010?

period.

They are either Republicans in sheep's clothing or Libertarians

Thanks.

But they think that the more Republicans that get elected, the closer we are to the revolution they imagine from their keyboards.

I know people charged up and can't wait to vote for Wendy Davis! I question anyone that says we don't have a chance this November!

... sure can't wait. I don't know what her chances are but any chance to keep Perry Jr. out of office must be pursued.

Have we all lost our ability to think logically? Do I love all of the Democrats in the Congress?...obviously not, but first we must vote out the cancer on our democracy that is the Republican party. AFTER THAT HAS BEEN DONE AND THE DEMOCRATS HAVE CONTROL OF CONGRESS AGAIN, THEN WE CAN WEED OUT THE DEMOCRATS THAT ARE NOT DOWN WITH THE PROGRAM.

Change is incremental. This is something the Republicans have understood for three decades and the Democrats refuse to embrace. Just because you cannot fix things in one election cycle, is not a reason to sit the voting out.

Since the early 80's the republicans have been organizing on a community level grooming candidates from the very bottom up... starting with dog catcher and school boards. Meanwhile Local Democrats in my district in the Hudson Valley of NYS have a hard time fielding ANY candidates for any office below Congress. The left has succumbed to the Nadarization of leftist politics. Why has Nader never run for Congress... or Governor or State Senator? Politics in the USA is a ground-up game and it takes years to win real power and that real power is in Congress. You are witnessing Republican WINNING right now.

Can we win on the national stage when the bankruptcy of Republican policies is exposed though televised debates... of course! This is not enough, as we have witnessed in the last six years.

We must be interested in more than the top prize in order to effect change.
2014 is the moment! If not now, we will be doomed to another ineffectual 4 to 8 years with a hobbled Democratic president, no matter who wins the nomination.

With some progressives following along because of feeling disappointed on various issues.

Edit to say that I have seen many issues, political and non-political, that appeared to me to be "troll-driven" towards a particular opinion. It has even been publicized that there are people paid to push ideas online.

Not voting because one is disappointed is childish, petulant, and self defeating.
To achieve any measure of success at anything in life, one has to push through a mountain of disappointment.

The trolls are very good at what they do. The play into the fears of others, and use those fears to push their BS like the "both parties are the same" crap. People need to wake up and look at the positive instead of always dwelling in the negative.

They want people to be so pissed off in 2016 that they stay home and NOT vote for Hillary....let the Senate turn because people do not get out and vote. Let this happen and the republican try to impeach this President because people did not GOTV and the so called Progressives will regret their decision to stay home or encourage others to do the same! Call it cutting your nose off to spite your face or whatever else people want to callit, but if we lose the Senate we might as well lose the WH...the GOP win-win!

Spot on.

are ReTHUG disruptors.

libertarians, anarchists or something else. Some may simply be misguided and have false beliefs that this country will somehow become unified toward progressivism magically if the Republicans get control. That hasn't happened in the past, and won't happen now.

Political change in this country is incremental. That's because we have a delicate balance of political beliefs here. I believe that we are more progressive than conservative, population-wise, but that our government gets skewed by a failure of many to vote, except in presidential election years. That is borne out by turnout records for various elections.

If everyone voted, instead of a minority of eligible citizens, I believe we would have a far better government in place. That's why GOTV is my primary activism.

People are upset about something and they find others who are also, or who claim to be, and they feel a part of that groups so they continue along buying into all the BS. Fear and smear works. If you can discourage people enough you can pretty much get them to do something that is not really in their best interests. Allowing republicans to win more seats in D.C. is not in the countries best interest, and that's a fact.

Same shit, different year.

you attribute this group's fomenting of discouragement and voter apathy because they are thinking "if the Republicans win, we'll get pissed and go find better, more progressive candidates to run in the next election".

I think you are far too charitable, as this has been in the works on the republican side of the aisle since the "Paul Revolution" arose and has wrecked havoc in the gop. I think what we are seeing now is the "Paul Revolution" has embedded itself in left leaning places, including DU.

A successful libertarian Revolution would be the brass ring of oligarchic ambition, as there would be no regulation and no government investment in the public good ... a complete privatization of profit while socializing a risk (despite their "free market" claims).

I must give libertarians kudos for their patience and steadfastness. They are doing it step by step, but have finally arrived at:

Not all revolutions are of the Left, but the Left seems to be falling for that tactic right now. Those who think not voting will make people turn the country socialist or whatever have not done the ground work nor studied the world.

The countries with the most apathetic voters are those ruled ruthlessly by Oligarchs in patrician societies with churches and militias enforcing it.

Some take for granted that America is immune to that state of affairs. The years since 2010 prove that if you don't use your right to vote, you will lose it and most likely forever.

Because it can happen here and non-voters and those who divide will make it happen. One of our European posters explained to me how the Nazis were elected. It was the lack of cohesion of the groups of the left to form a majority.

This is why there is such a push to divide us, and no effort or meme is spared by the tools of Oligarchs, who knowingly or not, work to attain their goal. They have something for every personality to buy into and exploit their triggers ruthlessly.

the first person that refers to hitler (nazism), loses ... Right?

Which is why, as a Democrat, I sometimes vote 3rd party.

I agree with shenmue (#30) that some people want a perfect candidate. Their attitude is "If I vote for a candidate who has even one bad issue position or who takes even one bad action in office, then I am morally complicit with evil."

These people will sometimes vote for a no-hoper minor candidate; the vote is politically irrelevant but makes the voter feel noble and righteous. They may prefer not voting if no candidate is sufficiently pure or if they (correctly) see no point in such a vote but can't vote for a less-than-perfect Democrat.

There may be a few that follow the line you suggest -- they want a Republican victory that will make things worse so that people will then support a progressive. I agree with you that this is ridiculous, but I think it's much less common than the purism I describe.

And fabricating bull$hit about "progressive websites discouraging voting"?

Nor have I seen a single blog or post saying our vote in 2014 doesn't matter.

What websites are you hanging out on that you actually see such?

Or is this a broad-brush response to far more nuanced statements about how too many Democrats are corporatists like the Republicans?

There's a whole lot of posts saying there's no difference between the party. Usually by people who are posting anti-Democratic party screeds within threads that praise a Democratic politician.

such posts as you say, and not actually posts saying that some Democrats (not all) are the same as Republicans on specific, non social issues, where are any saying 'don't vote' and 'your vote in 2014 doesn't matter'? Can you actually point to a few, not just other people saying such posts exists?

If you want more, the Google search box is right on the top of this page.

If you think there hasn't been a "parties are the same, don't bother" drumbeat on DU for many years, you must be new. It's only in about the last year or so that there has been a decent push-back against the "parties are all the same". Still get plenty of Will Pit and Manny posts claiming they're the same.

that say what MM is saying exists, they turn out not to actually be as broad brush as is being claimed. People are remembering them as being different than they actually are, to fit the narrative of 'people who say both parties are exactly alike'. But the reality is that people don't actually go that far. They do what you saw in the comment you went to grab - that the parties are different on social issues, but too often both sides of the aisle come together on economic issues in a way that's maintained the flow of money up to the rich, even during "recoveries", and leaves the rest of the population actually losing ground against inflation.

and you get 6 other people saying "they're identical socially, but different economically" it doesn't matter that each claim was not they are absolutely identical. The effect of such a campaign is the cumulative effect.

A vote for Democrats would mean a lot on economic issues ... e.g., Raising the Minimum Wage, Extending U/C, Paycheck Fairness, the Democratic (President Obama's) Jobs Initiatives, just to name a few.

I get what folks are saying ... The Democratic Party is not as progressive as they would like it to be; but to say the Parties are the same on economic issues, is patently, and plainly, false.

there are those out there who feel (even if unconsciously) they must have a raison d'etre so that they can "protest" (in quotes).

As an analogy... after the initial series of Civil Rights Acts and favorable rulings that began to break down barriers, several civil rights groups (notably the NAACP) and civil rights activists began to lose focus... which sadly lead to a period of apathy and corruption (see Ben Chavis). Many of the local chapters began to falter and suffered similar fates (see here in Philly).

It took a major assault against all of the gains (new barriers enacted, rollbacks of many inherent rights, and a concerted effort to bring about a new Jim Crow era) to kick many of these organizations back into gear.

So if and when there is no obvious "boogieman" issue wrecking havoc that needs to be addressed immediately, then a more minor issue is found and enhanced with hyperbolic fervor, in order for it to be seen as a "major life or death issue"... or a non-issue is manufactured and presented as life or death, in order to have that "reason to be", and be able to present oneself as the one who can save the day. And this state of the need for a raison d'etre requires one to be apolitical because you can't possibly be "relevant" when the thing you are arguing for or against has been "resolved" or at least substantially "resolved". And thus stirring the hornets' nest is the only way to stay relevant.

There is definitely a need to ignore these folks who wish to manufacture future issues by encouraging apathy in the now... and GOTV. And notably in the local elections, because those locally-elected officials are the ones who determine the electoral boundaries in census years and incumbency is a difficult hurdle to overcome by then.

usually unexpected but nonetheless, I ask people to vote. Don't care who you vote for, just vote. We have to show these 'leaders' that WE are still in charge. They will have to incarcerate or kill us all to make that a lie.