i love ur farming/gardening

there is something very special about showing a child a tomato plant,picking a tomato and eating it RIGHT ON THE SPOT

do not let a few naysayers ruin anything for u.....mute them

post some more pics if you have time

weeds that flower are flowers...don't let any1 tell u otherwise

Flowering weeds need to be deadheaded immediately else their seeds will spread and more weeds will appear in one's yard and the neighboring yards.

The other post was about code violations, not the habit of letting weeds flower.

and calling raised beds piles of debris.

why is there what appears to be random garbage all about, like a broken dining room chair, empty containers of what appear to be laundry detergent and/or cat litter, just laying around as if you couldn't be bothered to put them in a recycling bin?

organic and sustainable farming is a terrific thing and urban gardens are awesome. but just ignoring every complaint and leaving things unkempt doesn't make it organic.

and you still won't answer how you keep runoff out of city sewers.

did you know that it's even more critical in an urban environment? if you have runoff that has any bacteria and nutrients from runoff from your lot, the city sewer system will transport that quickly, directly and without treatment to either your local rivers and streams or Lake Michigan.

so stop proclaiming victimhood and answer the environmental questions raised about your "organic" property.

What the hell are you going on about, CreekDog?

What dining room chair are you talking about?

What containers? Maybe they're filled with mash for the chickens, or with chicken manure to use as fertilizer, you don't know.

Do you know the difference between city sewers and storm drains?

Do you understand the City of Chicago's system in particular?

Do you think that commercial pesticides and fertilizers that are commonly used are OK or better than anything that might come from this farm?

Do you realize the significant and positive impact open green spaces have in mitigating runoff?

Have you even been there?

mopinko doesn't have to answer to anyone here, least of all people who don't know the details of municipal water management systems.

That place is a blessing to that neighborhood and it's just one nasty neighbor who got in trouble who is now taking it out on mopinko.

.....

The chair may or may not be broken, it might be something she sits on while doing a chore or it may be in a pile of things to recycle. FAIL

Containers are found on all farm and are not always in use, or might be in queue for recycling. FAIL

Chicago's system is old, 1856. It's not like yours and mine where we treat waste at plants and storm run off goes into waterways. Chicago has a combined system and only in the event of high rains does the water exceed the city's ability to treat it. You said everything goes into local water bodies. FAIL

BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERS because her waste doesn't go into storm drains or sewers, it percolates into the soil and it's harmless in any event. SUPER DUPER SCIENCE FAIL!!!

Her form of agriculture is green, it's a shame you don't know your subjects here. KNOWLEDGE FAIL

A reporter looks for the most damning shot they can take and you apply it unfairly. FAIRNESS FAIL

You don't have a clue about these topics and have no business acting in this judgmental superior fashion.

some along the North Branch of the Chicago River drain to separate storm water systems which do not get treated.

Second: You can't assume that all her runoff goes into storm sewers, she's close enough to Lake Michigan that some runoff may not ultimately get treated, and there is bacteria pollution on the beaches in her area. She needs to make sure her actions do not contribute to that, but is she?

Just because you call her form of ag "green" doesn't mean that it is. Manure is still really bad in the environment, especially if it runs off the property. The bacteria is just one issue, the second issue are the nutrients, which Lake Michigan and tributaries need less, not more of.

I don't think you understand much about this topic.
Would you be happier if people didn't raise chickens and ate nuts instead, or commercial produce?
Do you know the constituent pollutants in storm what're and how insignificant a little bird poop is.

Where do you think other birds' poop goes?

Should we kill all bird life or contain and treat their poop?

You're kill in' me in this thread, CreekDog!

you're saying (you're not sure mind you) that it will eventually wind up at a treatment plant?

really?

that's sad. so you're saying it would be okay to poo in the gutter in the street? cause it gets treated, after all.

please.

Shitters full, Clark.

It's called "nature".

wow.

embarrassing.

wow.

how much credibility are you willing to sacrifice to defend this?

it seems like all of it.

i'm sure they would think you're an amazing environmentalist if you had said that to them.

I already know what they'll say.

From a well-known authority, but I just realized you'd try to find some way to dismiss that, too.

Seeya.

And other people on the Intertubes, like cavers, love this stuff.

right now my backyard does have an overturned chair in it GASP

right now there is an empty plastic bucket in my backyard THE HORROR

right now there is bird poop, squirrel poop, rabbit poop in my backyard

life happens

same question for you, how do you make sure that no runoff leaves your garden (if it is fertilized this way) and ends up in storm drains?

if you're doing a green thing, then the activity should not pollute.

if you're just saying "shit happens", that's just not giving a s---

that hardly makes one an environmentalist, to be so cavalier. all that means is that some people think their s--- don't stink, so to speak.

well it does.

Chicken manure is chock full of nutrients that will benefit your garden. - See more at: http://www.hgtvgardens.com/chickens/backyard-chickens-the-straight-poop-on-using-chicken-manure-as-fertilizer#sthash.rNJLCyF4.dpuf

I have 1/3 acre that has trees, some weeds, some tomatoes, and you know there's a broken wheel barrow and some other things that I think are just fine.

Cats and birds poop there, and my little dog, and I've been known to take a leak myself while outside if I need to.

Some folks in this thread seem to be obsessed with the author of the OP, who's vacant lot more resembles what nature put there than the tall buildings that surround it.

Shocking, right?

mo is doing something local governments should be doing themselves

think Detroit and all those abandoned lots, with the rising cost of fresh produce and the high numbers of unemployed it would seem to be a win/win situation

the Federal government is giving out grants to start community gardens...i know this because i volunteered at our local head start garden , it is very odd that this Democratic mayor is coming out on the other side of this issue

hopefully mo's case will change that

and the harm that nutrients and bacteria from it would do in the ecosystem, an ecosystem that includes Lake Michigan and streams and rivers that flow into it.

Food webs, for crying out loud.

Producers, Consumers, Scavengers, and Decomposers.

Carbon Cycle, Nitrogen Cycle, Water Cycle-- these are all grade school concepts, dude.

wow.

for the viewers at home, that's called not knowing what one is talking about.

Like I said, a cursory fourth grade education, taught well, tells us that animal poop fits right in with any ecosystem; there's nothing unnatural about a little bird poop entering Lake Michigan whether it's from shore birds, migratory birds, or others.

FOURTH GRADE, it's taught in the fourth grade. Now if you want to say, "well, chickens aren't native to Michigan", I would say that neither are Europeans, or Native Americans, for that matter, depending upon your definition.

4th grade.

Here's a book I want you to read:

The horror! But that way they don't collect water and mosquitos.

home grown food is so close to my heart

i grew up hearing about the depression and how the farmers fared best because at least they were not hungry

later raising foster sons,hearing their stories of hunger, eating out of the garbage...i decided city gardening was something i could help with teaching to empower themselves

seeing others degrade that passion because of a messy corner seems so heartless,frivolous

but i am CLAMPETT at heart...lol

Last edited Sat Oct 11, 2014, 04:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I've got chickens, guinea hens, and geese. No one can see my property because it is in the middle of nowhere.

But I know how sometimes debris is just not picked up right away. There's a lot of work taking care of all the critters...and they ARE messy.

Thank you for taking Mo's side here. That last thread she had looked like freepers all over it. Sadly, this one has the same haters.

DU is really predictable on one thing. Swarms love to attack. But only in their swarm.

mopinko and myself were moderators up til the end of DU2 and I feel some animosity toward us, not all mods but three of us in particular.

Not whining, just observing the patterns.

I'm blessed in being friends IRL with mopinko and several others, we have lines of communication outside this board and have met up face to face.

There are members who can criticize an urban pocket garden like this because it doesn't conform to their idea of a more formal or organized garden, and that's their right.

But coming up with claims about dangerous bacteria in bird poop that might run off and blend in Chicago's sewer system that happens to mix in with human poop is just bad science.

To be kind.

You need to visit an actual working farm sometime, and I don't mean a modern commercial farm.

You would learn a LOT!

Didn't work any that were corporate.

Not that it matters except to your credibility now in tatters.

Tell me more about your farm work.

I picked tomatoes as early as I could, then worked several summers operating forklift, bankout wagons, etc., in tomatoes and alfalfa.

Others worked in canneries, but I never did.

In later jobs I operated crawlers, loaders, and excavators. And one picks up welding, machining, other crafts along the way.

That's the blessing that comes with growing up on a farm, CreekDog. That, and tasty food.

So, tell me about these farms you worked on.

I remember you mentioning hugelkultur beds cited as debris in your other post, which is puzzling since a functioning bed would have layers of leaf mulch and topsoil over the wood and branches and would be contained within retaining walls or similar structure.

it is quite well covered w soil, and growing like mad.
3 raspberry plants planted last spring are now a 20' hedge that produced a gallon of berries. the hill also produced 200 lb of heirloom tomatoes.
all with no watering. zero.

the weeds are native plants that are selected, tended and used. the ordinance just says untended and over 10", which most werent. they count tall shrubs that are not neatly trimmed as "overgrown". even tho they arent.

bees and butterflies are dying

flowering "weeds" like wild carrot, indian breadroot, chicory are edible and beautiful

creator gave us these gifts so we would always be fed,so the birds and bees would always be fed

so sad that any naturalized green space offends some people

I took a half acre covered with invasive, non-native weeds and transformed it into a habitat for insects, butterflies, and birds by planting native species and other friendly plants. It was a waste land, now it's habitat. It doesn't look like a weed patch either.

what it looks like to u is not the same as what it looks like to others because i guarantee if u posted pics of native plants, someone used to precisely cut manicured grass lawns would think,"those are weeds"

The landscaped areas in my yard look like maintained gardens. The rest of it, where there are still non-native weeds, gets mowed down like a lawn.

As for siding with mo, show me where I went against her, here or in the other thread. I'll wait.

deep litter method means that the manure is mostly already composted before it ever leaves the coop. anything that is still fresh is cool within days. it is mixed with large quantities of shredded paper, which composts quickly.

a whole years "manure", including bedding, would fit in a 50 gallon drum. i only have 20 chickens, not a whole broiler operation.

as far as the weeds, i do tend them. i weed them. i eat them. i feed them to my chickens. the native plants that are there now have arisen as i have selected them and nurtured them. i watched this land for many years, while it was a trash strewn vacant lot.
there was no queen anne's lace, wooly mullein, fox tail and crow foot grasses.
lambs quarters, wild plantain, poor man's pepper and smooth amaranth are favored foods of the girls.
wild mustards yielded 1/4 pound of seeds.
about a brazillion clovers feed my soil.

the law says untended. my "weeds" are anything but.

I was replying to an ill-founded comment by someone else.

I assume that you have enough sense to age your chicken manure before using it --that's Gardening 101.

and since my coop is up off the ground, over half of it is perfectly safely contained, and cannot even leach.
it is amazing how it composts up all the paper litter that i use. the stuff i took out at spring cleaning is indistinguishable from the soil it was added to.

having only been a gardener for about 55 years, i still have much to learn. but the only time i put hot manure on things is when i WANT to kill them.

glad i am ignoring these comments. tho i have the steadiest blood pressure of anyone i know who is my age, it still has it's limits.

thanks gc.

anytime anyone says,EVERYONE would see this as i do

i know they are incorrect

i got the impression u were against mo because you jumped on my post about loving natural flowering native plants...i do not want them deadheaded...i want them to spread

i have watched the videos showing mo's property and it looks lovely to me

would love to see pics of ur half acre

i personally do not want to fight in du, especially with any1 trying to create naturalized green spaces but that seems to be all that happens here

and nearly every plant flowers if given the time and conditions. What I wrote was that we call certain plants weeds because they have a habit of prolific reseeding and thus will crowd out other plants that we prefer, be it prettier flowering ones or edibles. The word 'native' wasn't used by either of us.

One of my revelations as a new gardener was discovering how many of the prolific plants in green spaces aren't native to the area and often are culprits in terms of reducing biodiversity because they don't support the native insects, lepidoptera, and ultimately that effect works its way up the food chain to the bigger animals like coyotes and deer. Eucalyptus trees are an iconic feature of northern CA woods but they're not native and many are highly flammable, which makes them a poor choice for a state with an annual wildfire season. Fennel, broom grass, and other non-native grasses dominate the open spaces and none of them belong here.

some are invasive, like creeping charlie. but it has already invaded, and the soil probably had a few billion seeds.
erosion is a real thing with the sandiness of the soil here. so even the evil charlie serves the purpose of holding down the soil that i do have. since it is the first thing to flower in the spring, the bees swarm it.

i dont pull anything that is covered in bees. when they are done flowering, if the birds eat the seeds, i leave them until they are gone. otherwise they get pulled.

i do pull a lot of weeds. there are many i do not tolerate. even if they would benefit the wildlife. like- no thistles allowed, even tho i love them and the goldfinches do too.
anything with hitchhikers goes. tree seedlings go.

clover is untouchable.

untended it is not.

showing native edible plants ,how to prepare them ,when to pick

i would buy it

u rock!!

when the rocking chair gets me, i will take up the pen, i think.
i have had an interesting life, and this project has really exploded my brain.

trying to support her when she seemed really sad

i still think every1 should be able to decide within their own yard what flowering plant is a weed and what is a flower

seems in line with a liberal board to me.

What happens in this lot is far more natural and human and environmentally benign than the two tall structures on each side of the lot, or the typical store sold chicken.

I know you know that, I'm not sure why you insist on being right when you're so obviously wrong.

did you fully drain, and legally dispose of all the fluids/oils from the vehicle on your property which you are using as a chicken coop?

notice that this is not an accusation, but you wouldn't answer in your last thread and i'm not holding my breath that you will now.

given the google photos of the property, i don't know why the debris, the litter really, such as a discarded chair, strewn litter or detergent containers is on the property if it is in fact being properly cared for.

In fact, the garden and lot are absorbers of rainwater and take a load off the water management system.

This is one of the best arguments for more green spaces and less paved and built space.

All of the fluids from the vehicle have been taken to the proper recycling disposal center: gasoline, brake fluid, crankcase oil, and coolant, all gone.

How do you know the chair is "discarded"? Maybe she sits on it or maybe it's in a pile headed for a trip to a refinisher or Goodwill.

Detergent containers can be reused to carry potting soil or natural fertilizer from place to place.

Reuse and recycling is a good thing, my friend.

I think you are being extremely judgmental here.

and she certainly hasn't addressed it or answered any of the questions.

i take it if answering the questions would make her look good, she would have answered them.

she didn't.

I know the place and the owner and more about the topic than you have demonstrated you know so feel free to carry on.

You might never get an answer from mo because you might be on ignore.

i have had several folks share the link with the subject- keep on farming.

dont know what else i would do with myself, but....

It is not proper housing for the birds and quite unhealthy.

The OP has also posted on her FB page about how that unsafe contraption caused at least one of the birds to die horribly when it became entrapped.

She should be cited for cruelty and neglect for that incident alone.

the birds are very healthy, thanks.
they are safe, they are dry, they are warm in winter, and well ventilated in summer.

You said it died too horribly to describe. Does this not count toward the junk car/coop's record of chicken keeping?

and she did some major retrofitting to it as well. oh and welcome to DU.

in fact, i found out about the practice here on good old du. someone posted a pic of a vw beatle with poultry wire where the doors used to be. it cracked me up, and lit the idea.

all in all, it is a really wonderful coop.

sometimes you need to isolate a beat up hen, or an injured bird.
i have one of these- https://www.omlet.us/shop/chicken_keeping/eglu_runs/185/eglu_run_extension_kit_a/

it is so indefensible from critters it is a joke. next time i have to use it i am going to do some modifications. like use some decent hardware cloth to cover the run.

and dont tell anybody, but right now i am driving a beautiful old wagoneer. if and when the suburban becomes unusable.......

I'm thinking of doing it myself. My birds are free range, but they need a secure pen at night. A raccoon has taken two over the past three years, and we cannot figure out how. I shot the raccoon, but my old Dodge is something I don't believe a raccoon could penetrate. There's a topper on the back. Planning on working on it.

The birds are out during the day.

We had foxes and feral cats, and I have raccoons at this new place.

Twice, they've gotten on the roof and clawed through 30 year architectural shingles and the felt to the sheathing, trying to get into the attic to winter, I guess.

A Dodge is pretty solid, crack the window or make sure that there's some ventilation and they should be secure!

[h3]Reduce-Reuse-Recycle-Rethink-Recover-Refuse-Renew-Respect-Repair-Replace-Restore-Repurpose-Respond-Relocalize-Rebuy-Remember[/h3]

my coop is made of steel, fechrissakes. and there is no way for them to tunnel in.

coyotes are making a big comeback here. especially where i am, on the same block with a major train line. they walk that like it was put there for them. without my dogs and my secure coop, i have no doubt they would have had a couple of chicken dinners on me.
cooper hawks are exploding here as well. my rooster has protected my girls from several attempts.
if the city could get smart and realize that poison only perpetuates, the cycle would close.

go for it. old cars make great coops. the best part of the suburban is that 20 chickens still have plenty of room to lay and to sleep. they love it.

Having a garden is great. It's not a farm because you're not selling anything. My sewing room isn't a sweatshop no matter how much equipment I have.

But you're in a city and on a small lot. You need to make an effort to be a good neighbor. If your neighbors wanted to deal with rats and shit smells and junker cars they could go live in the country and save themselves a small fortune. You can redefine 50 flies into not a swarm, messy piles of brush and detritus into hugelkultur and a chicken killing deathtrap junk car into a coop, but you can't define what you're doing as being a considerate neighbor. You're making stinks and attracting vermin. That's not even close to okay, and it shouldn't even take the city getting involved to make you clean up, because decency and common sense should have kicked in about 48 flies and any rats at all ago.

add to the frustration is not one thing said indicates a willingness to fix a single one of the complaints or issues.

instead is simply a refrain that she is a victim, every single complaint is a "BS" complaint by a vengeful tenant.

i've asked her several times about the fluids from the vehicles on the property and how she can keep runoff from carrying nutrients and bacteria from chicken manure into city sewers (which are designed to quickly direct such runoff to streams, lakes and rivers).

with not a single response.

any question or criticism here is met with hostility, denial and a refusal to change ONE single thing.

her property is 100% perfect, that's why she isn't changing anything, it's 100% perfect.

or it's not, which is it?

and why you have made it a hobby to follow me around here and slander me, i have no idea.

seeing the place from space hardly gives you facts. but that doesnt seem to bother you.
fine, whatever. you are going on ignore now, which means all the fools who will chime in here proudly showing off their stupidity and ugliness will not be seen by me either.

like i said, meanwhile, in the real world, people who are here are standing up for me in droves.
so sad about the swarm here. but i cannot give 2 shits.
other folks who care about this place wont either.

swarm on without me.

they show a green, grassy lot before and a lot full of structures and vehicles after.

your feelings towards other posters do not change this fact.

Before was tidy, after would embarass the Clampetts. You need to tidy that shit up or find a new hobby.

On Sat Oct 11, 2014, 01:55 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

except that everything you just said is a lie.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5649219

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Is this nasty of an attack really needed? There are ways to disagree without insults, and ways to
put someone on ignore without being nasty, calling people fools, stupid and ugly. This sort of post makes DU suck. Use the ignore function, do not insult.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Oct 11, 2014, 02:10 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: DU does not suck-,Use the ignore function ,do not insult.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: the poster responded to a really hostile post that i found hurtful and her response deserves to stay.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Somehow, I've got the feeling there may indeed be something going on. I've been stalked before, myself, so I know how it feels.



Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

who think that the best way to handle being followed around and harassed by certain individuals over and over again is for the person being harassed to put the harasser on ignore.

The person being harassed is not only being harassed, but according to some really confused and special people here, the onus is on THEM to stop their harassment instead of the person who is actually doing the harassing! Sounds like the folks who think that all black people should just automatically give the cops our ID when asked whether we've done something wrong or not regardless of our rights, or that women should just get up and leave rather than ask the leering pervert at the end of the bar to stop bothering them.

(And this isn't directed to anyone in this thread at all, particularly as I've said I have no idea if this is a case of stalking or not beyond mopinko's comment. Just a general comment/observation about some posters here. That was a damn good jury decision but one thing I've noticed is that most juries tend to treat this type of thing pretty fairly.)

If you don't know that, well...

My first foray into activism was when I was 14, me and 3 friends petitioned and advocated to turn a vacant lot in our Brooklyn neighborhood into an urban farm and we won permits. I grew up in what was then a low income neighborhood and this farm literally helped people eat. Long story short, the little vacant lot turned urban farm is still going strong today in Brooklyn. Keep up the good fight.

ETA: My "farm" only contained produce, no live animals.

i know this place will, too. permaculture is our goal, and tho we grow annual vegetables, we are also working on long term plans. we have planted 7 fruit trees so far, several berries, mushrooms and more. those pesky "weeds" are native plants that are nurtured and tended to take over from the actually, annoying weeds.

and of course, the hugelbeds are permaculture. they should continue to release new organic matter into the soil for decades. they are supposed to suck nitrogen for the first few years. but we did beans last year, and this year have an incredible crop of tomatoes. with no watering.

if i can keep ahold of the land, it should be safe for the 30 or so years i am have left on this rock.