Thanks for posting.

Sid

Lot of those other diseases are fatal. There may not be a vaccine against stupidity, but there's might be a cure.

And now these anti-vax fuckwits refuse their responsibility as members of society.

I'm becoming more and more hardened toward anti-vax asshats. Maybe natural selection really is the only way.

Sid

I'm one of the last generations to have a smallpox immunization scar, and one of the first to get the MMR. My parents and pediatrician were big believers in how much good vaccines could do. I'm current on my TDAP - I live in California, and the standard tetanus booster for adults is now the TDAP because of the rate of non-compliance and the enormous increase in whooping-cough cases.

I had forgotten all about it until my adult children asked my husband and me about smallpox vaccines.

I remember being in school with polio survivors. We had them as classmates for all the years I was in elementary school. My parents did not hesitate to get the vaccines for us!

Not a pleasant illness.

Some will see the light. Others will only harden their position and, as the author says, will not be convinced.

Don't some schools refuse admittance unless children are vaccinated? If so, we need more of that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

Only medical exceptions should be allowed.

If you don't vaccinate your child, your child doesn't get to attend public schools or participate in sports or programs that are funded with public money.

Sid

And the children placed in a proper home.

What next? Jail all parents who refuse to allow their children to go to church? Let parents decide. It's their job not ours. I am for vaccines but also for allowing parents to decide. I guess I am pro choice!

doesn't affect the health and welfare of other children.
Not vaccinating does.
Bad analogy.

does not automatically produce a good parent.

People need to not be allowed to beat their children to death.

People need to not be allowed to use their children for sex.

People need to not be allowed to put their children at risk by refusing to vaccinate.



There are realistic limits on "Ownership Parenting".

If you want to get children vaccinated, you have to lay off calling anti-vaxxers stupid, conspiracy nuts, or whatever you call them. This is attached to a larger distrust of Big Pharma, and beneath that a distrust of government, a fear of the ineptitude of big science (and perhaps even the collusion of big science with schemes of the 1%- i.e. the conspiracy theories. And of course behind all this lay the radical wealth inequality that disempowers people and makes them fear the extreme power of a very few to exert control - even deadly control - over great masses.

These fears have some valid roots, and you can't brush them away with some pointers about how science works.

Scientists don't want to hear this, but the trust in science will come with greater trust in fellow man, and that will only come if we can work out the terms of a more equitable society.

With the Internet, so much information is easily available that conspiracy theories and fears share the stage with science.

Science has more competition, in a way.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

The pseudo-information also seems easier to arrange into a coherent world-view.

Whereas policy positions, academic studies, the "facts" are all fragmented and contested: it's harder to build decisions on that.

to market to fear, lust, emotion, fashion, ego, need, etc.

If the goal is to get children vaccinated, we should stop pursuing the obviously useless method of calling people with a hardened worldview "stupid" and work on shifting that worldview instead.

Unfortunately these people seem to require something of greater effect than the enhanced safety of children who are not killed needlessly by preventable disease.

The problem is you can't dismiss the anti-vaxxers as "teh stupid": if you want to blame them for children being needlessly killed by preventable disease, you should perhaps consider approaching them in a different way. That's all I'm saying.

In my experience how can you see someone as anything other than stupid when you point out that what they are saying is refuted by history, the AMA, the CDC, Wikipedia and snopes and their response is that all of these organizations are in on the conspiracy - because that's how much reach big pharma has.

Where do you go from there? Serious question.

If you think someone is stupid that's what you think, but if you want to persuade them of anything, you can't get in their face and call them stupid.

I'm also saying this problem is bigger than vaxxers vs. anti-vaxxers. It's going to have to be worked out over time through a political engagement that reduces paranoia in general, so they will start to see science as part of progress and civilization instead of the scary tool of Big Pharma/Government/Super-Elites that will be turned against them. Frankly, I think radical inequality, and the general disempowerment that comes with that, is the root of the problem, even if that seems like it's a totally separate issue.

but, make no mistake about it. While I am telling you in this personal interaction that I think that they are stupid.

When it comes to my interaction on Facebook with antivaxers - they are the ones calling names. They get really ugly - it's one of the things that makes me think they're stupid when I interact with them respectfully and they tell me how stupid I am for believing the CDC or AMA or snopes or Wikipedia.

I like your proposal, but you can't have a respectful discussion when only one side is being respectful.

I haven't seen these dust-ups, but I believe you when you say everyone is hitting below the belt.

Is it possible to stay out of those arenas all together? I would agree with the OP - those people can't be can't be convinced. They are in the fight to convince you.

Perhaps shift your energies to promoting science in general, especially for children. The key to undermining the anti-vaxxer world view is for people to be able to pick apart the irrationaliies of the underlying conspiracy theories for themselves. Basic appreciation of and trust in science comes first.

I have come to understand that through these Facebook interactions. Some of the people where not even my friends (on Facebook) - they came out of the woodwork to attack me.

Sadly, there have already been unnecessary deaths (and illnesses) one cannot point that out to them because they believe that the news (except naturalnews.com) is in on the conspiracy.

I don't see how to handle that beyond legislating the vaccinations, though. Until it's a matter of law, the vaccinations are voluntary, and these people have a right to avoid them, for idiotic reasons or not.

Shoring up trust in science is all you can do.

Trust in the government is the other.

I have explained to antivaxers that while the CDC is not perfect, it is continuous. What I mean by that is that the CDC was in existence during the last several administrations. If there was something wrong with the science during the Clinton administration the republicans would have been all over it - the flip side is true under the Bush administration.

Everything is under scrutiny in the government during national elections, but neither party has gone after the CDC specifically. If there really was something wrong with the science (or behavior) at the CDC, Fox News would have been all over it for the past 6 years.

That's a level of scrutiny that none of the antivax 'news sources' has to endure.

As someone who has been through the medical system, I can express frustration myself that the doctor's goal is often very different than the patient. The medical system is now very fragmented. The doctor insists the patient can only be seen for one symptom at a time, and the appointments are stretched many months apart. This prevents adequate diagnosis, and the doctor also fails to get to know the patient personally. In poor areas, the doctor condescends to the patient.

The patient is there for:
1) Pain relief.
2) Treatment/cure of an ongoing condition.
3) Documentation of the condition in order to obtain access to resources.

The doctor seems to be there for:
1) To lecture the patient about lifestyle.
2) To consider only one symptom, which may or may not lead to diagnosis.
3) To refuse to prescribe pain relievers.
4) To be okay with no diagnosis of "vague symptoms" - just keep suggesting exercise while throwing medications at the problem to see what works.
5) If the patient requests diagnosis for purposes of paperwork/resources, the doctor becomes more disinclined to diagnose because the patient might be a "malingerer".

Somewhere in there the doctor forgot they were actually being employed by the patient and started patronizing the patient. And the patient stopped getting very much out of the relationship. Instead of pain relief and answers, the patient gets "the speech" about diet and exercise: and the bills just keep getting larger and larger for that privilege!

Is it any surprise that people become susceptible to "snake oil" doctors who will run "tests", and show "evidence" of the Big Conspiracy Something that caused all the health problems: pesticides in the water, contrails, electric wires, vaccines, you name it. There are actual doctors who are out there reinforcing the conspiratorial frame of mind and making a ton of money off of it!

But don't blame the patients or the snake oil salesmen.

Blame the medical system for utterly failing to serve patients and forcing them to turn elsewhere. At some point doctors have to get back to the idea that the patient is paying them, and they have to give the patient something in the realm of what the patient wants for that - something like pain relief, treatment, or diagnosis that works with State paperwork. They can't both "get paid" and skate on some high stratosphere above the patient's needs and wishes. What a fantasy that is! But it's the fantasy doctors are living right now. It seems that fantasy is collapsing around their ears as we speak.

It's hard to be baffled with bullshit when one has a decent grounding in science, logic and language. Just the weasel-wording alone on those vaccine scare sites is enough to alert the nominally educated that something is not on the up-and-up.

it is not about being uneducated all, it is far more complex. The people who are entrenched in not vaccinating have so many different reasons, none that I have met worry about autism at all. They worry about things like type 1 diabetes and allergies and leukemia and I don't know what else.

Seriously, people on DU might know of the religious fundamentalists who are so called anti-vaccine. But most of the people that I know who have either partially vaccinated or not vaccinated their children are highly educated and educated in the sciences.

to back that up? Cites? Anything?

we are discussing a problem and how to solve it. The fact that people on this board are so certain that it is just tea bagger fundies not vaccinating when it is a whole number of different quite small subgroups on the left, right and center, each with their own issues, boggles the mind.

I live in one areas, I am telling you about the people around me who I know who do not vaccinate their kids and what I know of their reasons. Your response is quite typical and part of the problem.

If you think it is ignorance alone, you are not going to solve the problem.

And this is an important issue that requires more finesse than has currently been demonstrated by either the medical profession or the public health people.

It's true that highly educated people are buying into this stuff. And it does know good to spew insults or play nitpicky logic games. How does the "debate" you just held help anything?

"Alternative" beliefs are widespread and deeply held, and all you have to do is go to your corner coffee shop to find how ingrained this problem is. Arguing me down to a pulp isn't going to help anything. The problem is now "in the ground water" so to speak. It can only be addressed through restoring trust in basic science and re-engaging people with the political system so vast conspiracy theories don't seem to make "more sense".

than science - and now I understand what you are getting at.

The problem with getting folks re-engaged in the political system is that there is nothing for them in our current political system. We have an economic system that is bought and paid for by the 1%. That doesn't lead me to think all scientific studies out there are useless, but I do see how some people could withdraw and have trust issues overall considering they are being thoroughly screwed.

The way I have approached this issue is by taking on capitalism itself. This makes many people uncomfortable. Many envision a kindler, gentler capitalism. Personally I don't think it's possible - I think we have to kill the beast.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

also know everything about things they have zero expertise in.


It's a form of intellectual arrogance.

Sorry, your kid is a living poop and booger factory just like anyone else's kid, there is nothing special or unique about them.

Last edited Mon Oct 13, 2014, 11:15 PM - Edit history (1)

That usually kills a person within a few months and he lived for 10 years, right? I think that he used every tool available and 10 years instead of a few months is quite a success.

I see the problem as bigger than science. I see it as a factor of political and economic injustice as well. People feel great disempowerment and don't know where to lay the blame for their problems or where to go to resolve them. A great deal of our media and punditry just shoves responsibility back on to them to deal with their problems somehow. This results in a lot of nebulous free floating anxiety. People try to regain control of their situation by putting together some comprehensive situation. Everyone does this. That's why I say go into any coffee shop. We scoff at people clinging to conspiracy theories, but people's brains are kind of made to put together some sort of working picture of the world that helps them get through the day.

The medical conspiracy theories are particularly pervasive because the failure of the medical system in recent years. Wide swathes of the population hasn't been covered by medical insurance at all. I wrote a post above describing how the doctor's goal is often different from the patient's, especially the poor patient's, and at some point doctor's forgot they were working for the patient's and became an aristocratic class above them. There's the whole issue of *genuine* malfeasance of Big Pharma contributing to a conspiratorial world view. The trust has been lost. It's going to take a long time to win it back. But the first step is to recognize that it's an issue that trust has been lost as such a basic, widespread level.

I think you are covering the complexities of the issue so well.

Thanks.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/09/dachel-media-update-paul-offit-in-wall-street-journal-of-course.html
http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/06/dr-paul-offit-tells-jon-stewart-that-caucasion-upper-middle-class-educated-are-.html

They're an anti-vax agenda site that still thinks Andrew Wakefield is credible.

Nobody should believe anything that this poster posts from ageofautism, or any of the other medical woo, anti-vax sites that they spam DU with.

Sid

Stunning that you promote this bullshit!

people

It is not, and there are numerous reasons, all separate and distinct to each group.

Condescension and ridicule will not solve the problem.

I do not have answers, but know that this approach is failing.

a while ago

They convince themselves that they can understand everything because they have a piece of paper. It's about as lame as it gets. And it makes one wonder what kind of critical thinking skills are being taught, if any.

advanced degrees in a physical or biological science.

It is more complex and there are excellent insights posted above about the matter.

I see them after they've attempted to heal their cancer with raw food or potions or magic rocks. It's all nature and fuzzy feel-good and inner lightness until the tumors start to grow so fast they break the spine, cut off the airway or obstruct the bowel. Then - suddenly - they want science to swoop in and undertake all possible interventions to save them. Of course, by then, they've let the cancer fester and explode all over the body. Sadly, it's usually much too late. It's very, very, very hard to hold a husband left behind with two small kids while he cries piteously and says "We shouldn't have waited so long, what am I going to do?" It never gets easier to see the kind of possibly preventable pain that woo can leave behind. Does medicine always work? No. But it generally improves your odds by a substantial margin. Doing nothing, twirly dances, and woo-woo, on the other hand, all have about the same odds.

Similarly, when these anti-vax parents allow their children to be sickened by preventable disease by denying vaccination, they invariably return demanding treatment from the very same health care provider they refused (without sound medical reason) permission to prevent the disease in the first place . It's hypocritical bullshit on the same par as Ayn Rand cashing in on Social Security or republicans who want gubmnt out of my life but a nice oil painting of their blue-eyed Jesus nailed to the wall of my uterus.

That post was pure poetry.

I appreciate your kind words.

go for the raw food and magic rocks is that they are often told that Miracles Do Happen! They'll be fed some line of nonsense about how the magic rocks or the raw food or the meditating and prayer cured someone, so obviously it's better than medical science.

Every single time I read some story about someone supposedly recovering from some illness that was supposed to be fatal, I want to see documentation. Maybe the person was mis-diagnosed in the first place. Maybe the condition wasn't actually terminal, but that's what's presented. Maybe it's totally made up.

The sad truth is, that even with the best of medical science, people do die. We all die eventually, and it sucks when someone goes well before their time.

Add to this the fact that a lot of people do not understand the simplest basics of science or math -- the latter necessary to understand risks and probability -- and you have the perfect foundation for such crap.

The only unvaccinated kids who should be allowed in school should have compelling reasons for not being vaccinated, like being on chemo for cancer.

and this is one reason that they do. They do not want their kids to be around the kids who are sickened by the vaccines (as they see it).

It is very complex and not simple at all.

But name calling and belittling only make it worse.

and the people who usually write on this issue on DU are just horrendous.

they are stupid with respect to this issue. It's utterly mindless nonsense and the fact that their irrational beliefs are based in fear is even less reason to respect them.

In fact, some of the anti-MMR hysteria in the UK probably spread because there really had been a recent piece of financially-motivated government dishonesty over a health issue: the government of the time delayed admitting that eating the meat from cows with BSE (mad cow disease) could spread the disease to humans, because they didn't want to damage the agricultural industry. This does not validate or excuse the scaremongering of Andrew Wakefield or the Daily Mail, but it does explain why the ground was comparatively fertile for the growth of a health-related conspiracy theory, in a country that is not normally that susceptible to such theories.

However, I think that there is another issue, that is much harder to address. There are some anti-vaccers who are not merely distrustful of big Pharma, but are right-wingers generally opposed to any government involvement in healthcare. Indeed I think that these are the majority of the really strong anti-vaccers. There are two main variants of this: the religious right (of many religions), who think that government-sponsored - or perhaps any - vaccination is usurping the role of God; and the right-libertarians who think that government-sponsored health care is against economic freedom and 'personal responsibility'. Many an American anti-vaccination site seems to explicitly support Ron Paul.

don't take out others with them. They soak energy out of those trying to move forward in life IMO.

They simply reject science. Until they need a coronary bypass.

"Also my anesthesiologist, nurse, coronary bypass specialist, oncologist and post-operative recovery specialist."
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

"Thank God he came thru the operation..."

"Thank God her leukemia is in remission after all that chemo and a marrow transplant..."

.. and on and on.

Perhaps we have come so far from the communicable diseases that the seriousness of them is forgotten. I wonder how much of the population has ever known anybody affected by Poliomyelitis, typhoid, or Tetanus.

They've said as much.

They believe that vaccines didn't stamp out disease, but rather hand washing, healthy diets, and good clean living. Unfortunately, I'm not joking.

The site to visit to get the pulse of the antivaxer is naturalnews.com

Look up Dr. Tenpenny and you will have access to their collective consciousness.

don't get me started on Mike Adams.



Sid

Last edited Sat Oct 11, 2014, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

When someone is responding from a place of "pure faith" there are no effective arguments.

I engage to prevent "true believers" from misleading others (I am not referencing religious belief here, I am likening it to the blind faith the true anti-vax believers exhibit)

Maybe "Big Pharma is putting out disinformation about vaccines so your kids will need more medicine. After all, the medicine to treat the disease costs more than the vaccine to prevent it." Give them a CT that puts them in the public health camp. Who knows - - it might even be true.

Replace one fairy tale with another. If we can get buy-in from a swamp resident with a reality show or blonde celebrity with enormous mammary glands and a kind of "pornish" vibe it's a done deal.

and your idea sounds like a good start.

... so get your kids vaccinated!

(How's that for a conspiracy?)

It includes people like RFK junior and people who are highly educated. In my opinion those folks are worse because they should know better.


Bill Maher talks about the Smart-stupid people. You should add these folks to the list.

Too bad...he had great stuff to say when it came to environmental issues.

He might be right on the environment, but it would be because of chance, not because he used a good decision making process.

And neither one you can really change their mind on. They're what Bill Maher would refer to as "the smart stupid person".

A guy who not only claims vaccines are not "natural," he says germs don't cause disease!

"Maher has gone on record as a germ theory denialist, claiming that Pasteur recanted germ theory on his deathbed.[3] Some of his views on this matter constitute criticism of vaccination, he is not against all vaccines but believes that being vaccinated for any and all illnesses represents a slippery slope and could damage our natural immune systems .[4][5] In fact, on at least one occasion his anti-vaccine stances were tracked back to whale.to."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bill_Maher#Social_issues_and_politics

If bacteria/germs don't cause disease, he should have no trouble swallowing a large sample of E. coli bacteria and then being monitored.

is that the &quot x) recanted" is one of the creationist memes about evolution and Darwin.

People are going to harmed badly by the anti-vax, "all-natural remedy" crowd of fools who do not understand critical thinking in any way, shape or form. Oddly, it's one of the phenomenons that Sci-Fi has not addressed very well. This, in and of itself, seems puzzling. Maybe it's not just big corporations we should fear. Well, yeah, it definitely not just big corporations we should fear. NGOs are becoming just as dangerous, and often more so.

We really need more science in school.

When I explained that the word vaccine comes from the root word 'cow' because they discovered that the milkmaids that had been exposed to cowpox were noticed to be immune to small pox - one of the antivaxers explained to me that those of us that believe that the CDC is legitimate (I'm paraphrasing) are being herded around like cows. I'm not kidding - that's what they're like.

They have a string of horror stories associated with the first vaccine where people were abused by medical experts and as a result have no respect for doctors. I shared a link with the 50 myths about vaccines - the list was made by a pediatrician. Pediatricians are part of the problem. I kid you not.

If you want insight into their thinking watch the video below by their hero. When she speaks they behave it's as though it's coming from the burning bush. I didn't watch the entire video, but I'm pretty sure she addresses the smallpox vaccine (and how regular people have been deceived) right out of the gate.

Anything that any of us believe from any legitimate source will be refuted by either Dr. Tenpenny or www.naturalnews.com - that's just how they roll.

It really is like a cult. I'm not just saying that to be an ass, that's seriously what it looks like to me.

I guess some of the diseases humans defeated will be making a comeback.

Isn't a general herd immunity good enough?

That they are not speaking in facts.

It's no different from engaging the standard right-wing but job. You don't do it because you believe that you will change the right-wing nut job's views. You do it so that anyone else that is around (in reality or virtually) can see that there is another side of the issue - so that the onlooker doesn't just pass it on as an unchallenged fact.

As far as general herd immunity - the most vulnerable among us (babies and seniors, ill from something else) can't be vaccinated, they are the ones we are protecting with herd immunity.

I'll admit it: watching "The 700 Club" wouldn't convince me to believe in Biblical values. Listening to Rush Limbaugh wouldn't convince me to vote Republican.

I think the reason why right wing, fundamentalist, and quack media (whether Limbaugh, Christian talk shows, "The Dr. Oz Show", etc.) succeed is that they appeal to suckers who want to confirm that their crankery is right. Chris Mooney has done excellent scholarship into this.

Or, a sentence I've heard this week (two weeks after getting the flu vaccine, for that matter).

When queried, "It's not a dangerous disease."

Well, thanks much for being qualified and able to diagnose my health at a glance. What you don't see is a rather severe arrhythmia which will do some very, very nasty things if I get ill. As it's done before.

And by the way, get your flu vaccine. It helps protect those of us who absolutely cannot get the flu.

I'm ok with all the other vaccines, but the flu shot always made me sick. Every time I got one, my blood sugar would shoot up to 500-600 (I'm a type 1 diabetic) and I would go into DKA and have to be hospitalized. I depend on others to take the flu shot so I don't get sick (herd immunity) so thank you for doing that.

Like you said- Herd immunity.

not your advice.

which is not easy to catch in a country with our sanitary conditions, yet won't get smallpox vaccines. This country has gone off into left field.

Unless you work in one of two labs in the world anyway. And you are right, an Ebola vaccine would make no sense in this country.

(Which is odd because I said before that they believe it was eradicated by cleaner living) they (the CDC) just renamed it to monkey pox and then to duck pox (I'm just kidding about duck pox, but they claim it was renamed a couple of times).

They clearly have a romantic view of history. Before vaccines people, especially children died in huge numbers from illnesses we would never think twice about today.

Remarkably, this shows up in other realms. You might think, for instance, that science literacy would correlate with belief in human-caused climate change. But the research shows that science literacy correlates with polarization of belief. Liberals with high science literacy have the strongest belief in climate change while conservatives with high science literacy have the lowest. Science-illiterate conservatives are actually more open to the truth than conservatives who score high on tests of scientific literacy!

This is because we use our reasoning skills not merely to find the truth, but to establish and reinforce group identities. The educated Republican climate change "skeptic" is skilled sophist who uses superior knowledge of science to pick away at contradictory evidence and further reinforce their position, no matter how scientifically dubious. Similarly, membership in the anti-vax "community" is a status that entails a whole constellation of beliefs, implicit and explicit, and saying you were wrong is an option that entails exile from a community of like-minded people for whom you have some affinity.

For example: if you chose the clergy as your occupation and 'lost the faith'. Do you leave behind what you know and start over in a new field after 30 years?

I'm sure it's the same with climate deniers. If you got a job right out of school being a climate denier and you're making good money at it. Do you risk pissing off some of the most powerful people in the world by coming clean? I think that would be tough.

People become invested in their beliefs (regardless if what those beliefs are) and sometimes it's difficult to allow the truth to come to light.

But that's a tiny fraction of the whole. Most people who believe false and crazy things are doing it for free!

Don't believe in climate change? Google can find you authoritative scientific evidence to support your beliefs.

Believe that climate change will kill us all? Google can find you authoritative scientific evidence to support your beliefs.

Believe that JFK was shot from the grassy knoll? Google can find you authoritative scientific evidence to support your beliefs.

Don't want to vaccinate your kids, despite study after study showing no causal relationship to autism? Google can find you authoritative scientific evidence to support your beliefs.