Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

pa28

(6,145 posts)
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 07:13 PM Oct 2014

Meanwhile in England: 0 fatalities by cop in the last 2 years. 4 total shootings.

Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a police officer than Americans. Between 2010 and 2014 the police force of one small American city, Albuquerque in New Mexico, shot and killed 23 civilians; seven times more than the number of Brits killed by all of England and Wales’s 43 forces during the same period.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/18/1336354/-Yes-it-s-true-Police-only-shot-four-people-and-nobody-died-in-all-of-England-the-past-two-years#

Are we feeling safer yet?
57 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Meanwhile in England: 0 fatalities by cop in the last 2 years. 4 total shootings. (Original Post) pa28 Oct 2014 OP
K&R for more visibility. nt Mnemosyne Oct 2014 #1
K&R DeadLetterOffice Oct 2014 #2
Why do cops even need guns? They murder far more innocent ppl than they save. ncjustice80 Oct 2014 #3
Because civilians have guns BrotherIvan Oct 2014 #4
That if everybody is armed to the teeth, we'll all live in a utopian society? Chakab Oct 2014 #5
Is that not America today, armed to the teeth Utopia? Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #7
Of course! BrotherIvan Oct 2014 #13
An armed to the teeth citizenry naturally means a similar police force...duh. And neither are safer. Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #6
+ infinity!!!! etherealtruth Oct 2014 #9
Agreed. Only solution imo is to get the guns back to cstanleytech Oct 2014 #10
It needs a better Supreme Court that has members not indebted to the NRA. Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #17
The problem is though with relying on scotus is that their opinions can change where as cstanleytech Oct 2014 #19
Cart before the horse, my daddy always said, never is a good idea. Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #20
Just like how you would "reinterpret" the First Amendment? NutmegYankee Oct 2014 #25
Well.. that was disturbing.... Oktober Oct 2014 #45
As long as we are going to just say fuck it sarisataka Oct 2014 #48
How would we afford to do that? NutmegYankee Oct 2014 #24
Buy back? Confiscate and destroy, refund all registration fees and taxes only. Same with the police Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #26
You can't just take people's property without due process and recompensation. NutmegYankee Oct 2014 #28
and nobody calls for confiscation Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #30
I am calling for confiscation, Australia did it. Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #34
They also paid for the weapons Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #36
85,000 in a year? That is the gun sales in one day in America...try again.... Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #38
Not telling the truth again I see Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #40
Austrailia paid full market value for every gun. NutmegYankee Oct 2014 #39
Guns will no longer be considered legal property, duh. Only restricted to certain trained folks and Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #47
care to answer my question in post #40 Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #49
You still cannot take private property from people without just compensation. NutmegYankee Oct 2014 #50
in his world you can Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #52
Land of the free, yo!!! Initech Oct 2014 #12
So you don't think the problem runs any deeper than that? pa28 Oct 2014 #14
Britain proves that the answer is NO, it does not. Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #16
Well, since there are no guns in Britain that proves it. pa28 Oct 2014 #42
And before the ghost of Charleton Heston can say "we have a more mixed ethnicity" TrollBuster9090 Oct 2014 #8
Much smaller country Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #31
Too many of our cops are untrained, undisciplined children who like flashing lights and dressing up. EEO Oct 2014 #11
I'm not sure what you'd name it but there's also this . . . pa28 Oct 2014 #15
Masochism... EEO Oct 2014 #18
The main difference is, of course, RKBA. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #21
Because were fucking violent country who loves guns! nt Logical Oct 2014 #22
what is their homicide rate compared to ours? hfojvt Oct 2014 #23
Or, (c). They all are not armed to the teeth with military grade weaponry? Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #27
what is military grade? Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #32
Your mindset. Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #33
You made the statement Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #35
you think that is an alternative? hfojvt Oct 2014 #44
Well, unilaterally disarming is what they did in the UK and they are handling the punks fine, and Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #46
no, it is neither factual nor complete hfojvt Oct 2014 #53
5 incidents of use of firearms by a cop, what more proof do folks need that guns are dangerous in Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #54
It's common knowledge Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #55
Weak. So, you surrender to the logic? Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #56
Nope Duckhunter935 Oct 2014 #57
K&R Grey Oct 2014 #29
In addition to a different police culture, GB doesn't have an armed to the tblue37 Oct 2014 #37
If interacting with the public causes trigger-pulling pants-pissing fear pa28 Oct 2014 #41
Absolutely. A partial explanation is NOT a justification. There is NO excuse for US cops' behavior. tblue37 Oct 2014 #43
No neurosis like Antebellum yearning for a backward time . orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #51

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
10. Agreed. Only solution imo is to get the guns back to
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 09:54 PM
Oct 2014

the militias or in other words get them away from the civilians nearly 100% almost the same for the police as there are other options.
However to do that would require an amendment to the Constitution that specifically says that so the courts cant say it doesnt.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
17. It needs a better Supreme Court that has members not indebted to the NRA.
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 08:47 AM
Oct 2014

Man wrote those words, man can reinterpret them for the modern age. That getting guns away from citizens requires a Constitutional amendment is just another lie that the media have bought into, us intelligent and sensible folks do not have to make the purchase.

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
19. The problem is though with relying on scotus is that their opinions can change where as
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 11:33 AM
Oct 2014

an amendment to the Constitution that is clear and concise cant.

sarisataka

(18,656 posts)
48. As long as we are going to just say fuck it
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 05:11 PM
Oct 2014

To the 2nd amendment and fuck the 4th and 5th to round up the guns it is useful to fuck the 1st and 6th to shut up any whiners.

Don't worry, it's all for the public good and no one will ever trample your rights - without good reason...

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
24. How would we afford to do that?
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 01:09 PM
Oct 2014

You're talking a few hundred billion dollars just to buy back the guns at market value like Australia did. Let alone the administrative and enforcement burden and costs.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
26. Buy back? Confiscate and destroy, refund all registration fees and taxes only. Same with the police
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 01:16 PM
Oct 2014

and their military gear.
Use the metal and recast statues in every main square of every major city as a testament to the bygone Orwellian folly of more guns means more security.

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
28. You can't just take people's property without due process and recompensation.
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 01:19 PM
Oct 2014

At least, a Democratic society cannot do so...
And due process alone would require a court ruling for each person, another extremely expensive proposition.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
30. and nobody calls for confiscation
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 01:44 PM
Oct 2014

I keep hearing that.

People are sure paranoid as most people in the US are not armed, but facts do not seem to count.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
36. They also paid for the weapons
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 02:05 PM
Oct 2014

and now gun ownership is the same as it was then. Good thing to be firearms manufacturer when the government make a shortage to fill.

More than a decade after the horrific Port Arthur Massacre, gun ownership is on the rise in Australia, but experts say this resurgence is highlighting serious problems with the current regulation and registration system.

In the 15 years since Martin Bryant killed 35 people at the popular Tasmanian tourist site, the flow of firearms into Australia has eclipsed the amount recovered in the government funded buy-back scheme.

Last financial year alone Australians imported more than 85,000 firearms, including 44,000 rifles, 12,000 shotguns and nearly 20,000 handguns, and research by Radio National’s Background Briefing program has revealed a resurging interest in guns and hunting.

“I would say about 80 per cent of our membership are hunters,” Tim Bannister, from the 134,000-strong Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (SSAA), said.

“We’ve seen a change of the demographic. So we’re seeing younger members, we’re seeing women. Once upon a time it was perhaps older men, but now we’re seeing a real mix, which is really good.”



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-12/gun-ownership-on-the-rise/3662504
 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
40. Not telling the truth again I see
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 03:26 PM
Oct 2014

85,000 X 365 = 31,025,000 way off, where did you get this number, may I ask? Do you have a link to the source data?

The NICS Section processed 98,688 explosives transactions. Denials issued by the NICS Section totaled 2,403.

The NICS Section processed 2,596,745 of the total 7,360,400 firearms and explosives transactions conducted via the Internet-based NICS E-Check. The amount of transactions processed in 2013 is a 66.25 percent increase over those processed in 2012.


2013 FBI data
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2013-operations-report

Remember, 98,688 of the total 7,360,400 were for explosives and should not be counted as a firearm transaction. That leaves 7,261,712 total NICS transactions that are required for new firearm purchase. 88,203 were denied via the NICS check. that leaves 7,173,509 total passed transactions but even then it does not mean a firearm was purchased, just the check was made. So your numbers are just plain wrong and you should admit the fact that you are putting out bad information.

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
39. Austrailia paid full market value for every gun.
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 03:07 PM
Oct 2014

They, like we do in the Fifth Amendment, have a Constitutional prohibition on taking private property without just compensation. Now, Australia also only had about 1 Million guns to buy. We have 310 times that amount at current estimates. They did not have a second amendment, so the confiscation laws were legal.

What you are calling for is highly illegal. You want to take property without compensation. What a horrible precedent that would be! I'm sure the 1% is just salivating at the thought of taking even more from the working class.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
47. Guns will no longer be considered legal property, duh. Only restricted to certain trained folks and
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 04:53 PM
Oct 2014

a well regulated civilian militia under government control.

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
50. You still cannot take private property from people without just compensation.
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 05:39 PM
Oct 2014

It doesn't matter if you make it legal or not. If it was legal before, you cannot dispossess people without just compensation.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
52. in his world you can
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 05:52 PM
Oct 2014

Not the real one, and it frightens me that some would be so loose with rights. What rights do others want to take that would be next.

Initech

(100,079 posts)
12. Land of the free, yo!!!
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:11 PM
Oct 2014

Conservatives want a country where everyone is armed to the teeth, everyone is ultra right religious, and no one is in charge.

TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
8. And before the ghost of Charleton Heston can say "we have a more mixed ethnicity"
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 09:05 PM
Oct 2014

Having lived in London, the ethnicities are as mixed as they are in any American city.

So, WHY does England have fewer shootings? Because they have a single police force that is professionally trained, and whose training and behavior is held to account by a national authority.

That, as opposed to a thousand little police forces scattered all over the country, many of which are run by people who are elected by local voters who actually score their job success ostensibly on how many 'crooks' they lock up or shoot. (Or at least on how many people who LOOK like 'crooks,' and therefore probably ARE crooks.)

EEO

(1,620 posts)
11. Too many of our cops are untrained, undisciplined children who like flashing lights and dressing up.
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:09 PM
Oct 2014

pa28

(6,145 posts)
15. I'm not sure what you'd name it but there's also this . . .
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 01:44 AM
Oct 2014

Whistleblower Reveals California Cops Get ‘Shooting Tattoos’ To Celebrate Their Kills

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025660395

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
21. The main difference is, of course, RKBA.
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 12:32 PM
Oct 2014

If you have lots of guns, you are going to have lots of shootings, as surely as autumn follows summer.

You won't be able to fix this problem until you repeal the 2nd - which is to say, ever.

You could probably ameliorate it somewhat, though.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
23. what is their homicide rate compared to ours?
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 12:58 PM
Oct 2014

British cops are not killing British citizens because, unlike America, there are
a) not as many British citizens trying to kill other British citizens, and
b) not as many British citizens trying to kill cops

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
35. You made the statement
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 02:03 PM
Oct 2014

Now I see you are running away from it and will not answer a simple question.

I will ask it again

Is my 1926 bolt action rifle what you say "military grade"? Are you afraid of it?

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
44. you think that is an alternative?
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 04:12 PM
Oct 2014

Cops killed per year in the US

2007 - 191
2008 - 147
2009 - 125
2010 - 161
2011 - 171
2012 - 122
2013 - 100

653 homicides in the UK in 2012, a rate of 1.0 per 100,000. 14,827 in the US, a rate of 4.6 per 100,000.

Given that even the currently armed cops are getting killed, does it make sense to have them unilaterally disarm? And try to chase after armed robbers and murderers carrying only billy clubs?

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
46. Well, unilaterally disarming is what they did in the UK and they are handling the punks fine, and
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 04:50 PM
Oct 2014

of course the cops and the good folks all are felling safer because they are safer.

ZERO cops killed. The evidence is factual and complete. The debate is over. End of story. I rest my case.

Smart in crime works better than tough on crime.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
53. no, it is neither factual nor complete
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 06:19 PM
Oct 2014

For one thing, the good folks are safer because they simply have a lower homicide rate. You may want to harp about how scared you are of cops. I tend to be more scared of the thugs who are not paid to protect me, but are instead "self employed".

And police in England DO have guns, and use them too.

"In the year 2011–12, there were 6,756 Authorised Firearms Officers, 12,550 police operations in which firearms were authorised throughout England and Wales and 5 incidents where conventional firearms were used.[2]

Since 2004, police forces have increasingly been issuing Tasers to Authorised Firearms Officers[3] for use against armed assailants. Tasers are considered by the authorities to be a non-lethal alternative to firearms."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
54. 5 incidents of use of firearms by a cop, what more proof do folks need that guns are dangerous in
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 06:40 PM
Oct 2014

civilian hands, there is no logical response to their restriction.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
57. Nope
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 07:16 PM
Oct 2014

Totally different culture. Those police also have weapons. I am sure their officers are better trained and there is just a tiny number required compared to the USA and its 300+ million people.

I guess you surrender the truth for not answering my question in post #40 about where you came up with your numbers.

Forgot to answer my question in #32 also, "Is my 1926 bolt action rifle considered military grade" and what is your definition of that?

I made mine up in the post you are referring to, did you make up the numbers you stated?

tblue37

(65,393 posts)
37. In addition to a different police culture, GB doesn't have an armed to the
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 02:10 PM
Oct 2014

teeth population to cause cops to suffer pants-pi**ing fear every time they interact with the public.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
41. If interacting with the public causes trigger-pulling pants-pissing fear
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 03:32 PM
Oct 2014

Maybe that cop should find a new job. Like a meter reader or oceanographer.

Something that doesn't involve authority and guns.

tblue37

(65,393 posts)
43. Absolutely. A partial explanation is NOT a justification. There is NO excuse for US cops' behavior.
Sun Oct 19, 2014, 03:52 PM
Oct 2014
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Meanwhile in England: 0 f...