Put cameras on every cop. Let the chips fall where they may. I suspect that we will see far more justification of force via those cameras than we will see excessive, illegal force. But transparency is crucial. There are instances of police misconduct from time to time, and when those instances aren't properly addressed, then all police use of force becomes questionable and public support erodes away.

Transparency is the answer.

I do believe that there are many more instances of proper, legal behavior, on a whole, than abuses. However, I don't believe that to be true in certain areas. The statics pretty much prove that.

Look at the statics in St Louis County and in NY City. If more PoC are pulled over and frisked, charged or ticketed and jailed than white people, even when more white people, with fewer of them being frisked, are found with drugs, obviously the majority of these searches and even pull overs show an abuse. Not necessarily a physical abuse.

And look at how many people are being harassed by cops just for being not white. The guy going into work at a home in an upscale area of DC for instance. The kid that was maced in his own home. That's just a couple examples. Imagine how many we don't know about.

And, I understand what you are saying but do you think cops having body cams addresses the bottom line issue of racism?

I really hate to be the language police, but you used the word "statics" a couple of times when you mean "statistics." You missed a whole syllable.

I was using my phone until just now. The auto correct sucks and I usually miss it. I am a horrible proof reader.

I greatly appreciate that.

Thank you very much

and I have a very bigoted phone. It doesn't know the words gay and lesbian and it won't learn them. How about that!?

essentially stacked against blacks in general and black males in particular.

It is sad. And it's not just here...its all over the world. Therefore there will never be real peace for anyone. No justice, no peace.

Unless you are the mother of a black child and especially a black male child you cannot begin to imagine the terror and fear about your child even being outside the home. It is a daily stress. If you are the white mother of a black male it is even worse because you yourself are a target.

what the mother of a black son feels. Did you watch the video in the OP, Vest or Vote?

I don't agree it won't ever change. I believe it will never be eradicated. But we sure as shit can make major improvements.

The problem is that damn near all cops will stand in "solidarity" with the bad ones and piss away that public support all on their very own.

If a cop shows up to a scene and his friend and co-worker has shot and killed someone, he's likely going to support his friend and trust his story. Video removes that human bias.

As soon as a cop shuts his mouth to an abuse, he or she is just as guilty as the abuser.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”

Edmund Burke

when I see them arrest bad cops. Until then, cop apologists need to GTFO.

Even if it were true, that there are a lot of good cops, how and why would that excuse the brutality, abuses?

It's an excuse that minimizes the problem and excuses the abusers

were prosecuted for the Rodney King beating? Most probably know that 4 officers were prosecuted.

Who knows how many LAPD officers were actually present at the Rodney King beating? Most probably don't know that, from start to finish, no fewer than 21 officers were present.

Using copologist math, only the 4 officers prosecuted were 'bad,' but the other 17 were 'good.'

We can talk about racism without sounding racist. Everything comes out wrong and as soon as you step in it it gets all over.

It's hard. Just the stereotypes alone can make one sound like an ass. Where do we start?

We can't have a real discussion without tears. Without heartache. Without personal experience being shared, explained, examined.

I watched a live stream yesterday of a meeting at SLU between 2 groups. The protesters of St Louis County (it's not just Ferguson anymore) and an LGBTQ group. It was harsh and real and beautiful and productive.

One person in particular made a really great little speech. In it he said we have to unlearn everything we have been taught to believe. "We grow up being taught race should determine how you're treated. That war brings peace. And those are both wrong. We need to rip these down by talking and relearn that I should not be treated differently because of the color of my skin." He went on and I am paraphrasing, he was better. But you get the gist.

I will say for one thing, we need to call out racism whenever we see it, no matter how small

racism: the classification of people based on a non-essential characteristic, i.e., skin color or national origin.

No less a figure than Aristotle said we have to classify things in order to discuss them rationally. But racism classifies according to a non-essential characteristic and thus Aristotle and his progeny would reject racism as not logically valid. Marxists believe in classifying people according to what they consider the essential characteristic, i.e., their relationship to the means of production.

So is someone a worker (proletarian or peasant) or is that person an owner (bourgeois or petit bourgeois)? See how that question exists independently of the non-essentical characteristic of race? Ain't it funny how the bourgeoisie have used racism (non-essential) to divide workers (essential) and distract them from recognizing and fighting for their common interests?

Same analysis applies to sexism, LGBT-phobia and anti-semitism also. It's all ground clutter, designed to deflect people's eyes from where their true essence and true interests lie.

and although it does directly relate to what's happening now, how do we address this now? Here and now?

society. Even socialists recognize the need for some type of constabulary force to further the interests of justice, broadly defined. The question, as always, is whence that constabulary's legitimacy.

From my perspective, the racism we see in Ferguson and St. Louis County now reflects a growing crisis of legitimacy among the ruling elites and the structures -- the constabulary merely one of those -- that those elites use to perpetuate their status. In short, I see racism as one symptom of a deeper failure of capitalism to provide the blessings of liberty for all its subjects. Capitalism, one might say, depends and thrives upon the maintenance of a sizable underclass of second-class citizens, all while preaching an ideology of pure egalitarianism. The constabulary are there to enforce that second-class status.

No one has yet explained to me why a city that is roughly 70% black has only 3 black officers on its 53-person force. And no one has yet explained to me why Ferguson hires officers who live in other communities (like Crestwood), rather than who live in and have ties to Ferguson itself. (Wilson's home is in the upscale suburb of Crestwood.) No one has yet explained to me why we have a society where 10% of the population control 80% of the wealth. But somewhere in the nexus of those statistics and the definition\explanation of racism I provided above lies answers to those questions.

I don't know that I have watched regular tv in two months.

Just yesterday, one of the live streamers was in a local ST Louis restaurant and two people were discussing the "asshole" protesters. When they started talking about what happened at the Rams game, the live streamer, who in this case is an activist too, got up and joined the conversation.

The initial participants had stated that the woman who was arrested at the Rams game had hit a fan with a flag, had spit on someone. They got that from the MSM who portrayed the incident in complete fabrication. He explained that the woman didn't hit the guy with her flag. He explained is was her flag that the fan had stolen, she was trying to wrestle it back from him. He explained that the MSM only showed the second picture and not the first where the woman was desperately trying to hold on to the flag as it was ripped from her hands. That the woman that spit, did so on a person that was raging about her being upset. That it was her mother that had just been arrested for trying to get her property back. That the fan was let go without arrest, without charges. That throughout it all, these fans were yelling horrible things at the protesters.

The initial participants had also said that the flag in distress was an insult to Vets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Most military are very unhappy about the treatment of the people in Ferguson. There is even video of one Vet saying, "I come back from Afghanistan fighting for our rights only to come home to this. My government violating civil Rights of its citizens" There has been much criticism of the police and their weapons. Especially in how the guns are held. They have stated that you never point your weapon unless you intend to use it.

So a great deal of the problem is the press lie. They outright lie.

I have had a conversation with a local reporter there that has done stories on the loudest, most vulgar protesters and their anger. But when pushed and pushed to do a story that shows why the anger, that talks to the cops about the obvious racism and why they continue to do what they do, the answer was, "I believe you are saying we should have balanced reporting. I believe we do that." When I asked for a link, I was given a story about black on black crime.

did on the comments of Dr. Judy Melinek that the print media there lie.

We need to ask why the media so consistently lie or present an utterly skewed portrait of what is going on. In order to answer that question, one needs to look at the ownership of the various media organs and ask whether reporters and editors could ever propagate a storyline that directely went against the interests of those owners.

Marxists believe in a dialectical relationship between the substructure (the underlying system of economic relations) and the superstructure (the cultural and instituional forms created to justify and perpetuate the substructure). In this case, the media may not think they 'lie' when they are doing exactly what Marxist analysis says they will do, i.e., reflect and perpetuate the interests of the bourgeoisie. It's a feature of capitalism, not a bug, as the kids these days say.

but I assume there is a relationship between the owners and the politicians.

Frankly, Governor Nixon should be called out for being the racist he is by the Democratic Party leaders. The fact that the democratic leaders and candidates are almost all absent from this is despicable.

safe to conclude that the owners and CEOs of these media corporations contribute copious amounts of cash to the various politicos' campaign coffers. But clearly the owners of private media and the politicians have the same interest: protecting the interests of private property above and before all else. I don't have to like it -- and I do not -- but I have to admit the reality of it.

Don't know much about Nixon but what I've seen of him so far strikes me as incompetent and wussy, unwilling to go to the mat with McCulloch over his farcical (mis) handling of the Grand Jury hearing the Michael Brown case. The result is that St. Louis County and now Missouri has become the laughingstock of the nation when discussing issues around justice, policing or race. Oh as well as earning us our first citation by Amnesty International in its history for human rights abuses.

I don't know whether Nixon is a 'racist,' so I'll leave it to current Missourians to bat that one around.

The silence of the national Democratic Party around Ferguson and related matters is almost deafening, isn't it? Ironic, too, given that African Americans have been one of the, if not the, most loyal constituencies of the Democratic Party for the past 75 years. However, Nixon, McCulloch and Senator McCaskill are all Democrats, so not sure whether the national party's silence is from fear of creating local schisms. Again, I'll have to leave that consideration to current Missourians.

discussion of arcane philosophical topics.

Racists believe that race is the 'essential' characteristic, meaning that the race of someone tells us everything important about that person's identity. Marxists, otoh, believe that one's relationship to the means of production is the essential characteristic, meaning that whether one is an owner or a worker gets to the essence of who that person is in ways that race never has and never will.

As to what makes a characteristic 'essential' or 'non-essential,' Marxism considers itself a materialist branch of philosophy, such that it tries to root its theory and practice in the material world and not in the world of idealism (represented in the figure of Hegel back when Marx and Engels were composing their seminal works). So Marxists always seek to root their theory and practice in the conditions of the material world. whereas someone coming from an idealist point of view (philosophically speaking) would tend to view man as having some internal idealized 'essence' divorced entirely from his relationship with the material world. Appeals to and arguments based on 'human nature' tend to derive from an idealist philosophy and not a materialist one.

One can indeed objectively answer the question of whether one is a worker or an owner. To that extent, the characteristic is most definitely measurable. Marxism also prides itself on its scrupulous adherence to the Scientific Method and to Science as a means for 'knowing' reality. So Marxism would absolutely share your and my preference for objective measurements.

Hope that helps.

Seriously, as long as we're in the right area of discussion, I don't care what firm it takes. Talking about it is talking about it.

that I was worried we were going to see race riots.

Her response?

"That's racist."

If white people can't talk about race without the threat of the accusation of racism hanging over our heads, then what?

If I say something that's racist or ignorant, EDUCATE ME, don't just call me a racist.

but I would add that will only work in instances when whatever is said is said out of ignorance and not with malace. And there is usually, not always, a pretty big difference.

But you have a valid point.

I have actually seen that on twitter lately, though I have to say, more often than not, it turns out it was a troll that is a racists, unfortunately. Some of them are pretty sneaky when they first jump in a conversation.

Maybe white people, and everyone else, should stop giving subjective labels so much power.

Maybe people who just wants to call you names just want to call you names, and aren't interested in a broader conversation. Maybe you could ask them, "did you want to talk about this or did you just want to call me names?"

But what labels?

Regardless of your answer, I agree with how you said to respond

people shouldn't be overly concerned about being called "racist." I agree with the OP that race issues is worth discussing, but calling someone a racist usually ends the discussion. Therefore, I think we would benefit if people just ignored the name callers.

Maybe saying "that's a racist thing to say" instead of "you're a racist" might help ease the tension.

However, judging what happened on this thread, even those that think they're ready for the conversation, aren't. But at least they tried some.

What purpose does it serve? What does the label communicate?

I am just saying if it is, don't walk away. When a subject like this is discussed, people become emotional. Shit is said that shouldn't be. Why not recognize going in that it could happen and, if it should, push past it?

I would like to think that adults could not resort to name calling during a serious and important discussion, but that is obviously not how things play out.

Thanks

She just said,"I know. It's going to keep happening. Been going on since slavery."

do you mean an actual dialogue, or just cataloging all the wrongs white people have committed?

White privilege exists, and only the willfully blind don't acknowledge it. Some white people are more, sometimes much more, privileged than others, but all have an advantage.

But, white people have some valid complaints, too. For instance, when a white or Asian senior citizen is walking down the street minding his own business, and is knocked to the street and possibly killed because someone is playing the knockout game, there is a legitimate racial complaint. Or, the guy in Detroit who was nearly killed and whose life was changed forever also has a valid complaint.

Unless BOTH sides are willing to talk about the clear issues, there will never be any solution to the obvious problems.

of whites by blacks, whereas blacks are systematically oppressed by whites.

your post makes me sick. the false equivalence between a few blacks who were violent towards whites pitted against a whole system that creates a school to prison pipeline for blacks is not morally equivalent.


anyone who implies it is either does not know the history of racism or is being deliberately racist.

I think it's better to discuss it rather than hide the reply.

IMO, you're both right; racism toward blacks (and women) is by far more institutionalized in our country and culture.

However, to suggest that it isn't also institutionalized against others is absolutely false, and wrongheaded, and dismissive and disrespectful toward these other people who suffer at the hands of bigots.

So let's try to find common ground rather than stake out exclusive positions.

What hurts any one of us hurts us all in the end.

I know you know that's true.

I'm not being sarcastic. I don't see anything like the institutionalized, government sanctioned, racism and gender bias toward any other group. People of color and women.

What other group has that?

Depending upon where you live, (nd I've lived in NYC, SF, Northern California, and the Central Coast), one finds that different groups are denied services or treated very differently based on their skin color, their surname, their clothing, etc.

Again, depending upon where you are, the institutions of hiring departments and service industries most definitely prefer certain people over, say, people with Mohammed in their names, or who wear burkas, or who have that classic Native American facial structure or who look like they might be from Central America, etc., etc.

I didn't mention government, I wrote "far more institutionalized in our country and culture". It's harder to track down governmental sanctioned examples, they simply aren't written down that way but they still exist by virtue of how decisions are adjudicated in that subjective space where ill-defined criteria are allowed to be used.

Uneven treatment by police due to their bigotry is probably a great place to find government examples.

So, just as there are Taxis that won't pick up African Americans in NYC, there are mortgage brokers who don't want to find a loan for Jews or Islamic folks.

Sadly, it's everywhere in varying degrees and it sucks no matter which demographic is targeted.

And, yes, it's worse for blacks and women, as I wrote:

Although I didn't notice the lack of the word, or just assumed you meant goverment, I didn't understand what you meant.

I was including Hispanic people and Middle Eastern people in PoC. I thought you were talking about white people. My bad.

Thank you for clarifying.

Peace

against LGBT people, which is reenforced by virtually every institution of our culture including the law and religious institutions. 29 States offer no protection at all to LGBT people in employment nor in housing. It is legal to refuse employment to someone by saying this: 'We don't hire gays, we don't like your kind' and there is no recourse available.

Absolutely true. And we're a target of police brutality as well.

My head was in race.

There is conversation for LGBT people and discrimination and laws are changing, slowly. But if we don't keep that dialog going, things will not change where it hasn't already happened and it will go back to how it was, where laws have changed.

There was a very good dialog yesterday between LGBTQ groups and the protester groups as well as other African American groups at SLU. Very interesting. Though there was, and voiced mostly by whites, great criticism of the LGBT groups of not being inclusive of black people, there were times that Queer groups were inclusive.

The leadership of the Ferguson protesters have been very vocal on LGBT issues and a few of the leaders are part of both groups.

This is another area were racism and bigotry have problems within. I do think that LGBT have, of late, become much better at having the conversation. But if we don't keep up the fight, we will loose everything we gained.

I don't know if this should be a separate discussion or not. At the moment, I was hoping to converse about racism. Your point is legitimate.

Frankly, now I'm unsure what to think about the discussion.

I thought it too. Until you explained. And again, thank you for that.

based on their race. that is what i am trying to ask about.

But it's just not worth discussing, especially not in a thread about crazy and criminal police mistreatment of blacks.

And, of course, of women. There have been quite a number of stories this week about their mistreatment at the hands of police.

to say that it is systematically engaged in by white people is quite another.

Some people, it seems, cannot discuss racism without basically saying "fu$% white people".

Not that I am crying about that, but only saying that they are thereby setting up a discussion where they deserve the response "fu$% you too".

Whether it is institutionalized or not, the fact remains that hetero white christian males still face some obstacles and crap in their life. To just wave that away like it doesn't matter because, after all, "at least those hardships were not based on your category" only seems to be giving the message "people in your category do not matter to me"

And again, as far as I am concerned, once you tell me that, the discussion is over.

Everyone is marginalized in some way at some time. There is no doubt about that. But to compare the institutionalized, systematic racism to what a white, Christian, male faces is not going to get the racism discussion anywhere. There is no comparison. That doesn't mean that there aren't some legitimate claims but come on. You can't believe that there's any kind of equality in the inequity. Or do you?

Frankly, if you do believe that then that's why you can't have an open discussion about racism.

not me.

But then if you begin your discussion, or your discussion quickly turns to the basic message "hey, white people, fu$% you" then YOU should not complain because we are not having a discussion.

And as for equity in the inequity. I've had the discussion where I tried to explain how ridiculous it is to include Barack Obama in an "oppressed group" and me in a "privileged group". It's a fairly simple example, but there it is.

Yeah, the fact that some members of the supposed "privileged group" are not all that privileged and some members of the supposed "oppressed group" are not all that oppressed.

But feel free to attack me for saying so, because obviously that is how a discussion is supposed to work.

And having a discussion doesn't mean things won't get heated. If people can't discuss or argue without walking away then, yeah, there's no point in even trying.

The posts that you refer to started with statements that inflamed. Not just inflamed but dared. Responding in kind may not be a great way to keep the conversation going but starting with bullshit daring was trying to illicit a "fuck you white people" response is not a way to start it.

I said it will be hard. That tears may shed, etc. I have no illusion of sweet talk and balloons.

No one ever said that there are not white people that are disadvantaged or people of color with advantages. But you put a black man in a classy car and a white person in any car and the black person has a much greater chance of being pulled over for no reason. That's a fact. And that's what has to be addressed, admitted before anything can be accomplished.

To say, "I can't change anything and I will make decisions that benefit me. What am I supposed to do" just says, "not my problem. " This is a democratic site. If someone honestly believes they can't do anything about institutionalized oppression, what the fuck are they doing here?

Sorry, on a phone and hard to follow replies.

It doesn't negate what I just replied but since that wasn't the specifics I am readdressing.

Why come in with the attitude? What exactly are you trying to accomplish? If you don't want a conversation, don't care what anyone's experience is, can't see that just by being a person of color that in almost every way there are disadvantages that a white, Christian male doesn't have, then why are you here?

Why do you think that someone wanting a conversation will immediately say, "fuck you, white people"? And seriously, what disadvantages do you suffer just because of being a white, Christian, male?

There has been a 50-year (or more) effort to eliminate it, but it hasn't happened. It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in hiring, education, housing, etc., etc. There have been quotas imposed on businesses, colleges, and you-name-it. There are programs designed and intended to lift poc out of poverty. If all of that hasn't helped, what will?

I really want to know. I am a 58-year old white woman, who has always lived in rural, mostly white areas, and I am asking because I know that I don't know, and want to learn.

I asked why they keep saying "not your daddy's civil rights movement" and I received a very well thought out response.

However, I think the problem is not the generation that did the fighting for civil rights in the 50s, 60s and 70s. It's our generation. Around mid 40s to mid 50s. The older generation made changes. They got laws passed and implemented those laws. However, we dropped the ball. We allowed things to go back to how they were and in some cases, worse.

Good example is Roe v Wade. Those women got that done. They made sure women could dictate what happens to their own bodies. Then little by little, it was taken away. We screwed up. We became to complacent. We let money talk over humanity.

So now, we are again having pay gaps that are astronomical for women v men and PoC v white people. The "subtle racism" still exists but the blatant racism is back.

When a city depends on more than half its revenue on tickets and fines, and those tickets and fines are given in a much greater percentage ot the minority of the citizens, there's something radically wrong with that.

Did you watch the F*CKH8 video? That addresses a great deal of the problem, though obviously not in depth.

were not even put into effect till the SC cases around 1978 or so.


There are NO quotas places on business unless you have shown a past history of deliberate exclusion of race .

There are very minimal efforts to live people out of poverty and we have been cutting them since the era of reagan.

we have been imprisoning black people and making them cheap prison labor and benefitting of that labor for years now, we all know that but very little gets done. the drug wars have created havoc in black communities as although blacks and whites are equivalent users of drugs, blacks get punished at a much higher rate. not to mention the discrepancies in crack cocaine vs regular cocaine jail sentences.

then lets talk about the failing education system punishing young black children disproportionately to their crimes, creating an angry child, and facilitating what academics (and the numbers) show a 'school to prison' pipeline.

when blacks move into a neighbourhood, whites move out. this has nothing at all to do with crime rates. black homes are priced at a lower value even if they are in the middle of white neighbourhoods.

How do do stop self-segregation in housing? What solutions would you propose to stop often higher educated and wealthier whites, and the accompanying tax base and school support, from leaving a previously diverse neighborhood? Similarly, how do you prevent white "gentrification" of minority neighborhoods that often prices-out long-term minority residents from their homes and businesses?

Racial discrimination in housing is already illegal and such intentional discrimination is not the major problem. As the history of Detroit and its suburbs can attest, you cannot prevent the free movement of people, and ideas like desegregation busing and other similar remedial measures are often legally and practically untenable, lack popular support or simply have not worked. Even affirmative action-like incentives are generally unlawful without a very clear and demonstrable history of intentional discrimination.

Look at from a black point of view - you'll understand.

Just a thought, though. Look instead to more modern times, where middle class black people move into a gated community and make it a nice place with good values. For example, Ferguson. Take a look at the videos. Those are middle class suburban streets with patios and gardens and flowerbeds and such. That ain't somebody's east side (or where ever the folks with little money and no power are segregated by your city). These aren't people left with no tax base when the money left - they are black govt and middle class workers and secretary's who moved out to the suburbs to get away from the life in St Louis, including the racism. And now suffering the extra hit black skin takes when trying to find a job. And now the killing of a 18 year old man with no record? And police who treat the people like they are animals?

Just one more - despite the laws, from 2005 to 2008 there are hundreds of documented cases of black skin with clearly as good lives and credit being steered to and charged more for home loans than white skin (I doubt mortgage brokers saw them as people, just skin and fees). There is a passage in one of my books about one of our great banks targeting those neighborhoods with specific advertising that also used that practice.

What we are seeing is not just the result of gentrification, or "white flight", or "discrimination". We are seeing active, intentional acts designed to hurt people both financially and physically, in a nation founded on the principle that white skin is what a whole person has, black means you are less than that and subservient.

It's a hate issue, not a housing issue.

A "quota" has an "or else" attached if you don't. In the early 80's my dh worked at a paper mill in northern Wisconsin. They had a minority hiring "goal" that involved losing government contracts if it wasn't met. There was ONE Black guy in the whole town, and he was a doctor. I don't think they made much of an effort to get him to work at the mill. It was cold enough to freeze your 'nads off there in the winter, so their efforts at recruiting didn't go very far. They ended up sidestepping the issue by recruiting and promoting women accountants and engineers. (Most of them had been raised in the frigid north, so they weren't afraid of a little frostbite.

Colleges make every effort to recruit Black students. Scholarships are provided. Support is given to compensate for an inadequate preparation. I really don't know what more can be done.

I agree about the drug laws. Clearly, there should be some equity in sentencing.

There are problems, but a lot of them have to be solved on an individual basis, by individuals making different choices. Unfortunately, that's not the kind of thing government can do anything about.

That's a completely inaccurate statement. How can you look at what is going on in this country and make that statement? Do you know the statistics for a black person to be pulled over v a white person? Hiring practices? Educational spend? Incarceration and length of incarceration? That 1 in 3 black males born today will spend some time in jail?

I think you need to look at these statistics. More importantly, you need to speak with people of color and ask what their experiences have been. What they suffer through on a daily basis.

I am ashamed to admit, I tried to calm the discussion by not being as blunt as you just were. I had exactly the same reaction. And THAT is the issue. I just fucked up big time.

THank you for answering honestly.

I agree and I was also on the jury - which went leave it, 0-7.

discussion leads to accusations of racism, which leads to end of discussion. So, yeah, if the conversation is all one-sided there will be no solution.

Here's the thing: There is NOT "institutionalized" racism or oppression against whites.

But, my son and daughter-in-law live in the 'burbs of Detroit. There are many wonderful opportunities for things to do in Detroit, but when we go to visit, we don't do them because of the two examples I cited in my post. So--we don't go to restaurants or shop in Detroit. Our money stays in the 'burbs. There are many, many others who feel the same way I do. Enough people are avoiding Detroit that it keeps jobs out and that keeps people poor, which leads to to all the problems of poverty that all the government programs you can dream up won't solve. This is a choice we as individuals make, based on examples of violence that apparently don't matter in the huge scheme of things.

Last edited Sun Oct 26, 2014, 01:29 PM - Edit history (1)

discuss everything possible but admit that they have a major role to play in what happens to the lives of black people. whereas blacks have little to no effect on them.

it's about avoiding responsibility for continuing oppression by pretending that being scared of black people is the fault of blacks.

(Not "roll.&quot

There is nothing I can do about institutionlized racism or oppression. I can make individual choices, but those choices are going to be in my own best interests. Tell me what I should be doing differently.

And of course we will usually make decisions in our own best interest but not always. And it is in everyone's best interest to end racism

Your responses are what just shut that conversation down

that poor black neighborhoods are unsafe?

But there ya go. Smh

and where this vicious cycle begins. If the systematic abuse of PoC didn't exist, do you think that Detroit would be a place you want to avoid?

There are great parts of Detroit and I'm sorry, but what you're saying is not a valid reason not to go.

Here's two comments on an interactive map of crime in Detroit.

On Sat Oct 25, 2014, 12:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

no, both sides dont have legitimate racial arguments, there is no systematic oppression
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5713676

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post gets way too personal against a long time DUer simply expressing a common opinion. This is so over the top and will likely discourage any real discussion.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Oct 25, 2014, 12:57 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm looking for the "way too personal" part and not seeing it. I really wish alerters would be more specific about the parts they find offensive or over the top.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Over the top? Puh-lease!
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: She's 100% correct.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: it seems kind of odd for someone who is asking for a HIDE to worry that the alerted post will "likely discourage discussion". Just sayin'
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's not a contest, there is no good in suggesting that the member is a racist. That, itself, is almost as bad as being a racist so please refrain from attacks.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Really silly alert. I so wish alerters names were published.

I was juror #5.

I agree with all the reasons given.

I certainly didn't mean to be offensive.

Do you really think suggesting someone is racist is almost as bad as being racist?

I hope she lost her job

n/t

but in this case we are talking about systemic oppression.

this doesn't mean a black person can't be hateful bigoted and say or do horrible things against others because of their race. of course there are cases and they deserve to be punished for it.

but that's different from talking about problems in the system which works against an entire community.

Interesting.

Here. Now.

May I ask if you are a POC?

Yes, everything has to be addressed. If a list of grievances is how it starts, fine. Then we address those.

In your examples, I agree, they're horrible. Those things have to stop. There's no excuse. But that doesn't mean there isn't reason that a kid growing up in an area where they see their parents, aunts, uncles targeted constantly, where they have a disadvantage in school due to over crowding, less and worse equipment, and then become targets themselves, are angry and feel like it really doesn't matter what they do. They're screwed just because of the color of their skin.

Did you know that a black male born today has a 1 in 3 chance of ending up in prison?

response above, I am a 58-year old white woman who lives in the sticks of northern Michigan.

Admittedly, my knowledge is limited to my own experience.

I went to a public university in the 70's which had a microscopic minority enrollment, due to racial incidents that happened several years before I matriculated. There were a couple of Black women who lived on my floor my sophomore year. Neither one of them participated in group activities with the rest of us. One of them was very wealthy, and all wealthy people intimidate me, so I never made any overtures of friendship. She was out of my league, and I knew it.

No child should grow up feeling that there is anything they can't achieve, if they put their minds to it. Education should be equal for all.

When we moved to our small town over 20 years ago, the schools here had an extremely bad reputation. There was no money for the things I had always taken for granted were parts of public education--there was no p.e., no elementary art or music teacher, no field trips. Fewer than half of the kids tested scored "satisfactory" on the MEAP test--and that was touted as a huge achievement, as in "almost HALF of the kids here are satisfactory!!!!! Yay, us!!!!" Worse by far, was that there was a book on the shelf in the school library entitled "Someday Man May Walk on the Moon." It was like a monument to their who-gives-a-shit attitude.

What I did, and what virtually any parent can do, is decide that education doesn't only happen in the classroom. We made regular trips to the library, stimulated curiosity in our children, helped with homework and projects, and took pride in their accomplishments. In addition, I was constantly in contact with my kids' teachers. I stayed on top of things, and the teachers knew that I cared. The point is that $$$$$ in education isn't everything, and statistics show that the greatest indicator of educational success is parental involvement.

But not every parent can do that.

Take a single mom. If she is working at the local walmart, she may need two jobs just to feed her child and self. The time she can allocate to her child is minimal. Especially if the jobs are during the day and evening hours.

Regardless, why should there be the disparity in education that exists? My boss has a son that attends public school. He's in an upper middle class area. The school offers all kinds of extras. My boss also is on the board of a charity that goes into schools and helps teach through art. All kinds of art. It's a fascinating, well run, successful charity that has been around for 2 decades now. When I asked my boss if that charity goes to his son's school his answer was, "no. (kid's school) has two teachers to a classroom, this art program that, sports program, etc" This is the same city. How can we have such separate schools? And they sure as hell aren't equal.

I am unsure as to the reason for your story about the two girls at your college. I find the "they didn't" socialize comment interesting. They kept to themselves or they were never included? And can you even see that?

Read the petition calling on the federal government to implement critical reforms to end abusive, militarized, and biased policing targeting Black and brown communities.

From the letter ---

I urge you to take definitive and immediate action, including but not limited to the following reforms:

A fully-resourced and rigorous civil rights and criminal investigation by the DOJ into discriminatory policing, excessive force, and death or injury by police in every state in the country;

A comprehensive, streamlined, public national-level database of police shootings, excessive force, misconduct complaints, traffic and pedestrian stops, and arrests, broken down by race and other demographic data, with key privacy protections, the exclusion of personally identifying factors and information, and deportation immunity for civilians.

Mandating of Peace Officer Standards and Training Commission (POST) in every state and inter-state coordination between all POSTs.

An executive order that creates a strong and enforceable prohibition on police brutality and discriminatory policing based on race, ethnicity, religion, national origin, age, gender, gender identity or expression, sexual orientation, immigration status, disability, and housing status.

Increased funding for the DOJ's Office for Civil Rights to ensure additional, accessible state-level responders for police and other civil rights violations Divestment of federal anti-drug grants and federal funding for police departments that demonstrate abuse of power and massive reinvestment in community controlled and based policing practices.

Support for the passage of the End Racial Profiling Act (ERPA)

Streamlined national use of force matrix and mandating that state and local police have clear and streamlined matrices.

Strict limits on asset seizure without due process and the transfer of any military equipment to local law enforcement under the 1033 program, guidelines that ensure that the equipment is not used on non-violent protesters, and an end to the requirement that such military weaponry is used within a year.

Is this the demands put together by the Ferguson group?

And it is great.

The petition/letter is from the organization Color of Change. Check out their website for more info. They also post on Twitter, hourly. under @killedbycops ... people killed by cops in the past 10-15 years. It highlights the point that there is no accounting of police killings to any federal agency - we just don't have collected data on it. The tweets show accounts of many many being killed.

I think the ideas listed in the letter are an excellent start to dialogue.

I actually saw the "Color of Change" after I asked.

I have been retweeting every tweet with the names of the victims of their Killed By Cops. Days of it. It's just sad. It's beyond sad.

Yes, I agree it's a good place to start. And we need to realize it isn't just the cops. So few cops are ever arrested and of those that are the percentage that are actually convicted is unbelievable. How the cop that killed John Crawford was indicted is beyond me. If nothing else, there was enough to cause a trial. But it's just going to drop. Makes me physically ill.

I mentioned in the OP that so many different threads have just sat there. I think that there is much more racism than I ever would have thought on DU.

I can almost bet that if the Amnesty International report about Ferguson was about Toronto, there would have been a whole lot more indignant people, talking about how horrible it is that the Canadian government is sanctioning such racism.

I also think there is a some racism that shows itself in the "okay but look at what 'those' people did here" or "black on black crime is worse than anything the police are doing"

I think that some people are afraid to call out others when they see racism on DU because of fear of a the mark against them. I am very happy to see that jury decision up the thread.

I think that the reason we are not discussing at length and in detail, constantly, the issue surrounding the murders of Mike Brown and John Crawford, as well as the horrible police brutality against People of Color across the country is that some here see it as "if they hadn't done this" or "had done that" they wouldn't be dead. They victim blame and don't want to call it out for what it is, racism.

I think that some people do not want to admit there is white privilege or that non white people suffer because of white privilege.

I think we're doomed if we cannot address this.

If you see this and you haven't rec'd or commented on a thread that had anything at all do to with the issues surrounding Ferguson , Mike Brown, Darren Wilson or police brutality, please explain why. Even if the answer is you don't care.

I have bookmarked for later when I might be able to give a more thoughtful response. But the weather is nice and the farms a callin

I do think this conversation needs to be had but I don't think this country is ready to have it. I don't know if we ever will. And by this country, I mean everybody, Black, White, Brown, Purple. Because to do so will mean looking into ourselves and our respective races and coming to terms with some really uncomfortable truths about ourselves.

Just an example. Someone mentioned that we need to include a discussion of the "knockout" game if we are to have a honest discussion about race. That's the stupidest shit I have ever heard. White and Asian people don't want to have a discussion about that shit. Aside from the fact that many races took part in the knockout game, I'm pretty sure Whites and Asians would rather have a discussion about what they perceive to be systemic pathologies within our community. And as a Black man, I'm willing to have that discussion so long as we also talk about the pathologies within other communities. And that my friend, is where things get very tough.

But kudos to you for trying and I hope you keep it up

It seems we might have gained a little with this post, but very, very little.

You're exactly right. It has to be uncomfortable or it will never accomplish a thing. If you get mad, sad, upset, whatever, push through it and continue to talk.

I will say this, if we do discuss, I am going to exclude purple people. I understand they are large, have one eye, and eat other people. So, ya know, no purples damn it!

Thank you. I do hope you come back and add more to the conversation. I also have to run at this moment but I hope that things will continue. I hope when I come back there are a million replies. However, I don't expect more than a few.

Enjoy the weather!

create a 'revolving problem'?

the benefit of the doubt.

There's one *major* problem with your argument, however: For there to be "reverse" discrimination.....it would require that so-called "regular" discrimination be the exclusive province of a single group. But it isn't, never has been.....not even in Apartheid South Africa. Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who it comes from and is targeted against(which also destroys the lame-ass and quite frankly prejudiced, or self-loathing, depending on who uses it, "only white people can be racist" argument on the *other* extreme end).

Don't be taken in by rightist agitprop, Kyle.

And another point is, even with AA's flaws, do we really have anything that works any better? Right now, I'm not so sure. So perhaps we should focus on fixing the flaws in the current system, whatever they may be, and not take a risky gamble by trying something new, that may not work at all.

race-based affirmative action today tend to already occupy comfy spots in the middle- and upper-middle class.

I actually think it may be time for forward-thinking progressives to consider moving from race-based affirmative action to some form of socioeconomic-based affirmative action. Last I checked, the Los Angeles community of Watts had a 40% adult unemployment rate and crippling levels of poverty and desperation. I'd like to see programs that promote socioeconomic diversity and mobility and make opportunities available to people based on their socioeconomic status and not solely their race.

But this is just an idle thought I've had from time to time, maybe even a pipe dream, and not anything remotely supported by any data or analysis of which I'm aware. For now and the foreseeable future, race-based affirmative action is the best we've got.

Cops are F-ing corrupt and a lot of them are racist assholes too. It pisses me off.

-A ticked off whitey

Every word true. Just to be fair, I will say not all cops are corrupt. But until one comes out against what's going on, I have no respect for them. They're part of the problem

# 2 would take a book or at least an extremely long essay. (Changing media, culture, etc.) So, I'll propose one answer - and there are many things to be done - about police brutality and institutionalized aggression.

Wearing cameras is great, but it won't solve everything. Most of the people in the country, unfortunately, can only be motivated by fear and or money. Empathy and doing the right thing eludes them. They're too dumb, too selfish or too callous to care. So, to get people involved will take informing the citizens of the cost of the worst cops, to the taxpayers.

There are over two hundred SWAT raids a day in the USA. That number is staggering. Tens of thousands of raids per year, executed for trivial reasons. Property destroyed, innocent people wounded or killed, a mockery made of freedom and the country's values, etc. There are also four hundred people a year killed by cops. Germany fired 85 shots in 2011, British officers fired 3 2012. Nobody knows how many thousands of rounds were fired by our police, but over 400 people were killed. Yes, our country is larger and more violent. But not to that degree. Not even close. Those numbers in-and-of themselves are a criminal indictment of our system. It's sickening, embarrassing and shows a pathology that should not be allowed to continue.

My proposition is to educate the people on the billions of dollars defending the criminals in our employ. Demand the local politicians, whether in New York and Los Angeles, or in Bill Wyoming - if these officers do the wrong thing and cost the town, county, state or city money, they will lose their jobs. Immediately.

(Going to make this its own post.)

And here it is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025714476

But I am addressing the blatant racism from police. The majority of what you brought up about prison labor is overwhelmingly, black men. Especially when you look at the population percentages.

You make an excellent point overall. But I am talking about us talking. We can't begin to heal if we don't converse about racism.

I can answer better later. I have to run.

Awesome reply and I am looking forward to reading your post

Both things are complimentary to each other, and both are a direct by product of the War on Drugs. The War on Drugs is an absolute abomination and an embarrassment to the United States. It needs to end immediately, and the people behind it need to be prosecuted to the maximum extent that the law allows, and the prison industry needs to be nationalized. Fuck this shit.

I agree completely. It is an abomination. They should all be prosecuted. They also perpetrate the idea that "black people are bad" because of all the arrests and incarcerations.

Don't want to put words in your mouth, but at a level that is more personal, how do we get to the point that we can open the eyes of the people that are blind to the racism involved? We won't be able to change anything until the greater majority of people see this. And that means taking the blinders off. I don't think that will or can happen without personal open conversation about racism

Although, the more I respond to people, the more I think a big part of what has to change us the media. I don't think while we have the media we do, the racists will even see the racism.

As for the seeming worsening of not just racism, bias, and unequal treatment, but tribalistic fear, brutality and killing in general, things have taken a turn for the worse.

What's gotten worse is that the middle and working class -- white, black, and otherwise -- is being squeezed out of existence. Everyone is more afraid that they don't have enough, and might lose what they have. Poor and middle class white people are again tempted (and encouraged) to worry more about poor people of color than about the wealthy and powerful who are actually threatening their well being.

The police are a mechanism haves rely on to enforce the status quo, less the have nots get wound up and start thinking about taking things for themselves. I think there is a growing paranoia amongst the more powerful and privileged that the lack of balance is a direct threat to their well-being. Law enforcement receives this thinking, and becomes ever more wary of the "others" getting out of hand. That feeds on itself. Poor communities receive heavy-handed treatment and abuse, and become wary and defensive themselves. Every interaction is more fraught.

Those with the guns and the authority become more determined to assert absolute authority, lest civic unrest build momentum. They become increasingly brutal out of fear they will be overrun. We are America, and our culture runs immediately to black vs. white, because that is history. But racist behavior by law enforcement is a canary in a larger coal mine. Anyone without power is subject to increasing abuse and increasing levels of violence justified by authority. No-knock warrants. Flash-bangs thrown at babies to stop imaginary pot dealers. Grandmothers tased. Homeless beaten to death. Tanks and tear gas vs. signs and marches.

Hyper-violent law enforcement is becoming the norm for everyone not sufficiently plugged in to call a lawyer ahead of time.

And then we have our new religion about guns. Specifically, the growing ideology that self defense via lethal violence is not only an option, not only a "right," but some kind of sacred civic duty.

We no longer talk about lethal force being a last resort. It's now the first resort. We are being pushed to acknowledge a right to carry weapons absolutely everywhere, so that some can be prepared to kill whenever they feel "fear." New laws insist that killing someone else is not only possibly justified, but in some cases PRESUMPTIVELY justified. Underlying all of this is the implicit suggestion that we must make sure the "right" people are armed, less the "others" run amok.

We need a paradigm shift where we move our suspicions away from those who look one way or the other and those with slightly more or slightly less economic or social status, and focus on the top, from which the real pain the real threat is emanating.

The last 3 responses are all extremely good and well thought out.

I don't know what to think about them though in terms of how to deal with this at the personal level. Perhaps all 3 of you don't think it's possible until the issues you have stated are addressed? And if so, how do we do this one until we do the other?

U.S. population controls 40% of the wealth and 10% of the population controls 80% of the wealth. That leaves just 20% of the wealth of this country for the bottom 90% of the population. (Keynes would be rolling around in his grave and tearing his hair out at that particular Gilded Age constellation.) At the exact same time, 1 in 5 American children experiences at least one episode of hunger (aka "food insecurity&quot each month and record numbers of Americans are receiving nutrition assistance (pka 'Food Stamps'). These are the current material conditions (to name only a few) and they show no sign of improving significantly in the foreseeable future. This is the coalmine in which the canary of racist policing exists (to borrow your metaphor).

Bravo! for a well-stated post.

friends are black" lines are utter BS.

Is something I have heard since I was a little kid. And I am old.

Thanks.

Btw, I wonder who gives out the cookies

TYY

I am sick to death of seeing the brutality and outright murders being committed by thugs with a badge and guns.

Blacks and the mentally ill are the most prolific victims but anyone can become a victim of these bullies.

Police need to be held to a higher standard and it needs to start today. Warrants should be needed for any use or gathering of private information or gps monitoring and should be hard to get. We also need to stop allowing them to profit off of drug crimes. And, they need to stop being allowed to lie to people.

I no longer trust them at all.

When they tase an 8 year old, there's no doubt this shit is out of control. When they can throw a grenade at in a crib and injure a baby without repercussions, no one is safe.

Thank you. Not sure what good the thread did but I think at least a couple people started a conversation. Maybe they can soon finish it.

White privilege is to white people as water is to fish. It is part of our "background of obviousness." We can't see it and don't know about it until something happens to lift the veil.

It's human nature to think in binaries and to be "tribal:" the assumption that I and mine are "people," and strangers, non-members of the in-group, different ones don't count as human. People can learn to get past that, but they won't figure that out for themselves. They have to learn critical thinking skills. They have to wake up.

I agree that we have to talk. More than that, we have to learn to listen and empathize. We have to be able to interrogate how racism and white privilege work to maintain the status quo and keep "the masses" stuck where we are, arguing among ourselves while the ultra-rich get everything they want. This kind of emotional intelligence and multicultural competence requires critical thinking, respect, and dialogue. What is needed is the kind of education pioneered by Paolo Freire in Pedagogy of the Oppressed, and the resulting "conscientization" expanded upon by Gustavo Guttierrez and other liberation theologians (including James Cone, Black liberation theologian at Union Seminary.) Needless to say, that kind of education can't be assessed with bubble tests or taught on an iPad, so it isn't happening in public schools.

All the videos in this post made me sad, but most of all the one of the black radio host who complained about "brainwashing" black children to believe in racism. The "do what I say and you won't get hurt" and "thug" language he used were shocking coming out of his mouth. But another piece of the puzzle is that our entire culture is abusive and hostile, built on fear, bullying, and violence. It starts with the way many parents treat their children. The "poisonous pedagogy" that Alice Miller talked about in her books produces people who blame victims (and blame themselves if they are victims) and who can fall prey to the kind of blind, nihilistic denial that the radio host displayed.

The thing that frustrates me most about online discussions is the inevitable and rapid descent into arguing from anecdotes or folklore. "I knew a guy once who didn't get a job because of affirmative action" is an example of what I'm talking about. Of course, that shows clearly what has been termed "the possessive investment in whiteness." Affirmative action to help high-achieving black students overcome some of the deficits society imposed on them for being born black is "wrong," but the fact that 20% of the spots in Ivy League colleges go to "legacy" applicants is not even discussed. Because of course rich white people are entitled to that kind of benefit. Because they are rich and white. When I mentioned that to a white man who was arguing against affirmative action he said it "shouldn't" be that way--everything should be based on true merit. He missed the point.

Very thoughtful post.

I am saddened by the conversation you refer to on this thread not going further. I do believe that there was some honest want for understanding but not the ability to really admit that or allow for vulnerability. On the other side there wasn't the want to try to knock down a weakened wall. But, perhaps next time, it will go a step further.

I know that in my own life, always bringing attention to racist remarks or actions, not letting any of it pass, trying to educate and having the conversation is what I can do. That and pushing for changes in law, attending local council meetings, etc is what I can do.

I suppose the format of DU is not the best way to try to make things happen. The auto removed replies (at least one, I didn't see the other) are part of the problem. They should have remained because even if they were wrong, they are part of what has to be addressed.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply