but the fact remains that the anti-choicers' tactics were smart and effective.

Roe v Wade. We are afraid to take any of these new measure to court for fear of losing EVERYTHING.. The Court Stacking by Republicans was their true brilliance.

They used "mission creep," to withdraw women's rights. It happened slowly, one vote at a time, one court case at a time, one abortion clinic bombing or one doctor shooting at a time. These things have a cumulative effect.

so women don't view it as personally affecting them as much even if they are pro choice .

I don't see how women can see this as not personally affecting them.

also i think some only see abortion in "roe v wade" terms. they think all is fine as long as roe is not overturned.

it's also one of those things where it might take some personal experience to really get attention .

as you say people ususally don't know details and the right wing puts things out in misleading ways that seem reasonable.

there might be a need to change strategies with how we campaign and get support for these issues so women can be informed about the details of it. it might need to be nationwide but different based on each state.

I've been complaining about this for awhile. In hopes of warning the LGBT community, for example, that they best NOT take their new and hard-fought, hard-won rights for granted. There are people in this country who will absolutely, flatly REFUSE to accept this. And they WILL keep fighting. They'll keep fighting in whatever ways they can.

Remember ALEC? It still exists, even if the name's been changed, the corporate sponsorship is drying up, the light of unwanted publicity has been cast upon it so it can't hide in the shadows anymore. Think it's gone? Think again! They're not gonna give up THAT easily. That Devil's work continues unabated. ALEC went all-out, well-funded and well-backed and well-strategized and well-researched and well-staffed to find ANY AND ALL ways to chip away at a woman's right to choose. To find ANY little weakness or wiggle room and get in there like termites looking for a way into the woodwork in your house. Think termites. I once wrote a column about it. No matter how many times you call the exterminator, you really can't ever rest or let up or let down your guard. Cuz if you THINK you've gotten rid of them, maybe you have for a few weeks. But believe me, they'll be back. And they'll look for whatever way in they can find - and they'll take it with voracious relentless armies on the march.

Imagine you're fighting TERMITES, not people. You have to think of it that way, and you have to strategize it that way. You have to think like they do, and try to out-think them. This is my MAIN complaint about our Dems. We have virtually no one thinking deviously. And that's the only way we can outsmart these guys, and get around what they're trying to do to us and put out the many fires they try to set all over everywhere. Think ANT COLONIES. Think MOLD AND MILDEW. Unfortunately, THAT is the kind of onslaught we face. THEY. WILL. NOT. GIVE. UP. They just won't. And our biggest problem is that our forces took it for granted that we had the Supreme Court ruling and that was that. No need to defend the ground we'd gained. We just won it and that was that. And nobody planned for, or anticipated, that the Sore Losermen would NOT give up trying to take that ground we'd just gained away from us.

I'd bet they're gonna be coming for marriage equality rights now, and also marijuana rights. Mark My Words. If we let down our guard, which is unfortunately what Democrats are VERY good at doing, we'll wind up losing.

I think we have to go subversive and devious at this point, if we're ever going to retain what's left of Roe v Wade's protections, and even build them back up. Our so-called activists just assumed the bad guys were beaten. Unfortunately, the bad guys refused to see it that way, or accept that fate, and they kept on fighting. The answer, I think, is to answer...
HOW MANY WAYS CAN WE FIGURE OUT - TO SUBVERT WHAT'S HAPPENED?
HOW MANY WAYS CAN WE GET AROUND WHAT THEY'VE BUILT AND ESTABLISHED AND NURTURED?
HOW MANY WAYS CAN WE THROW A MONKEYWRENCH INTO THEIR WORKS?
HOW MANY WAYS CAN WE UNDERMINE WHAT THEY'VE BUILT - in effect, become THEIR termite problem??????
HOW MANY DIFFERENT WAYS CAN WE ATTACK, AND SNEAK, AND GO AROUND THEM?

Truly. What can WE do to ruin their day? What can WE do to pour the proverbial sugar into their gas tank?

START THINKING DEVIOUSLY, PEOPLE! I think that's the only way. Because thinking nice and trying to get along and give in all the time sure hasn't worked, has it?

Sorry, I know people on our side don't like to think about devious sneaky-ass tactics, BUT DAMMIT, THAT'S THE WAY WE HAVE TO FIGHT, NOW!!!!!! THAT is one part of "choice" that we definitely don't have anymore. We have to program OUT of our fellow Dems and activists ANY effort to fight fair. We have to reject ANY effort to bring that familiar ol' feather duster to the gun fight. We have to DO AWAY WITH anything that is conciliatory or "uh, okay, I guess they're right," or "well, okay, I can see their point..." NO MORE OF THAT!!!!!! When we seek common ground with these assholes, we lose the opening round. Just concede the fight automatically and completely - right there. That's the one thing I've found I can complain about, regarding our President. He's been too nice and too conciliatory, too interested in meeting them halfway or trying to see their point of view. NONE OF THAT!!!! NO MORE!!!!! FUCK THAT!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT HAS TO STOP!!!!!!

Sorry I'm shouting, but man, I've been posting about this and trying to wake people up on our side - for years. That's why we have Dems with no backbone, and a political left wing that's so damn watered-down by now that it's hardly recognizable. And THIS is what you get as a result. THIS is what your let's-be-nice efforts get you. THIS is what "reaching out" gets you.

I AM FUCKING SICK OF IT!!!

I'd add womens' right to vote and own property to that list. Fuckers want it all!To what did ALEC rebrand themselves, though?

Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 12:50 PM - Edit history (2)

Corporate name changes are a common strategy to throw the watchdogs and citizen activists off the trail. I had read earlier that they had changed their name but I think that's not true - yet. They've hired the big-ass PR company Edelman Public Relations:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Daniel_J._Edelman,_Inc.#cite_note-19

When I was a reporter, I occasionally got press kits and stuff from Edelman but not too often. Usually it didn't apply to my particular beat (Hollywood), because it was corporate-focused, and usually only if some celebrity had a personal PR problem and needed an image rehab. We've gotta stay alert about this stuff. Remember when that sweet little Middle Eastern girl testified so urgently and passionately before Congress about babies being yanked out of incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals by the mean ol' Iraqi Army, which provoked Operation Desert Storm to get Saddam out of Kuwait? Well, that, I think, was Burston Marsteller, another corporate PR enterprise that also specialized in rehab and refurbishment of cherished and damaged public images. It turned out she was carefully coached - how to dress, how to present herself, what to say and especially how to say it. "Once More, With FEELING, honey!" AND NONE OF IT WAS TRUE!!!!! Fleischman Hilliard is another one. Gotta watch this and be alert about it. The presence of some big-ass corporate white-washing outfit like a big-league PR company should be a red flag and an air raid siren to us all. It's often a glaring, blaring signal that somebody big has a big mess to clean up.

CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!!!!!!! NEEDED CONSTANTLY!!!!!!!!

Meantime, I've found some good resources on this fiendish cabal:

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/04/12054/“alec-who”-alec-has-identity-crisis

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

As far as I can tell, scrounging around, ALEC has NOT yet changed its name. My research (from the link - a report from April 2013) shows a claim now being made that they've disbanded their voter-suppression and gun-goon arm, but I remain suspicious:

The "corporate bill mill" hired Edelman and has been struggling to repair its image in the past year. In April 2012, it dismantled the "Public Safety and Elections Task Force" responsible for promoting gun laws and voter suppression, and last month, posted a small selection of its model bills online in an effort to further distance itself from its most undesirable legislation. - See more at: http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/04/12054/%E2%80%9Calec-who%E2%80%9D-alec-has-identity-crisis#sthash.R6NgtqiD.dpuf

The reason I remain suspicious is that this effort, the "Stand Your Ground" crap and voter suppression remains a vital concern on that side. They may have disbanded the protocols or the division or the specific group of operatives in charge of those campaigns, but I would bet strongly that such activity continues unabated - just under a different corporate title or division or maybe the operatives are now spread out among many different sub-divisions or redirected toward little secret sneaky-ass side groups nobody knows about because they're trying to stay WAY below the radar. BELIEVE ME, such surface "dismantling" of those operations is cosmetic only. That's a VERY valuable and highly-prized activity ALEC performs for lazy republi-CON legislators who probably can't write a complete paragraph without help, much less a piece of legislation. Remember, they all prize willful ignorance on that side of the aisle, too. And their favorite son is louie gohmert.

Another reason I remain suspicious is the track record established by another predatory corporation: what used to be known as Blackwater. They were the same lovely people brought in by bush/cheney in an attempt to partially privatize the Iraq War. They were the military contractor and subcontractor that boasted a BOATLOAD of no-bid contracts for the military for security and other soldier-of-fortune purposes. They were the go-to company. Eric Prince May I submit this about the Artists Formerly Known As Blackwater:

http://www.thewire.com/business/2012/08/time-blackwater-change-its-name-again/55532/

Just know they do this shit. Just know, and expect, that they'll try to pull this shit. To divert your attention. They're counting on you not keeping track. They're counting on you to forget.

And you'll start discovering a real spider web of these guys.

The founder of the Artist Previously Known as Blackwater is/was Eric Prince. Staunch republi-CON from the time he was being breastfed, I suspect:

Family[edit]
Prince is the brother of Betsy DeVos, a former chairman of the Michigan Republican Party and wife of former Alticor (Amway) president and gubernatorial candidate Dick DeVos.[17]

Prince has seven children from 2 marriages. His first wife, Joan, died of cancer in June 2003.[40]

His youngest child, Charles Donovan, was named after William “Wild Bill” Donovan.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince

So this tells you he grew up with Amway as the family business, and interestingly enough, THAT COMPANY TOO seems to have undergone a name change - a facelift for the brand. And family patriarch Dick DeVos is a rather powerful and influential CON. Wonder how much he gave to political campaigns, and to whom? Just pull ANY thread here and watch part of the tapestry unravel. When you see connectivity between people or companies, or the same names continuing to come up again and again, and you start becoming aware of their movement and their employment record (telling you a lot about where they get their money from and who they'd use to gain power or bring into power with them). Every time I see such a corporate spider-web laid out, I'm utterly fascinated. Be it Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, the many generations of the House of Windsor, or the "family tree" behind the rise of bush/cheney. It's always instructive and most illuminating.

righteous rant.

It should have always been treated as a medical procedure, to be decided on between a woman and her doctor. Period. That's how the privacy issue on which it was founded was framed. Once we started having "our side" buy into the "well we all agree abortion is a bad thing...." and framing it as a moral issue rather than a physical and medical (and PRIVATE) one, we ceded ground.

We've done the same thing on taxes and any number of other issues so that here we all sit, happily agreeing to the other sides terms of debate and then slowly losing ground from there.

WHY are we trying to meet THEM halfway? WHY aren't we forcing THEM to meet US halfway? WHY ARE WE ALWAYS CAVING?????

THAT has to stop. It's pulled our whole party too far to the so-called "right." And when people moan and groan about how "both parties are the saaaaaaaaaaaaame," and "who even knows what the Democrats stand for anymore?" Well, THIS IS WHY.

WHERE are the ideas for sneak attacks? WHERE are the ideas and strategies for subversion? I wanna hear some! I want to kick around ideas for some. I want people on our side thinking about this - HARD. Otherwise we might as well just lay down in the road and let the bad guys run over us. Seems all too frequently like our side is already examining the road, looking for the best places to lay down where the gravel's not too hard and the pavement's not cracked. So it won't hurt so much when the "inevitable" run-over happens, of course.

THAT SHITTY THINKING HAS TO STOP!!!! YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what do we do? Ideas, people! An "underground railroad" maybe? Let's look at the ways other oppressed groups and people got around shitty situations that seemed overwhelming to them. Let's look at the slave era. How did that finally develop cracks and breaks and holes in the wall, and eventually crumble? Okay - walls. How did the Berlin Wall finally come down? What were the steps? What was the internal subversion? What did subversives do on the other side to keep the flame alive and corrode the wall - figuratively AND literally? And how long did it take to turn the tide? The answer, unfortunately, is gonna be "A LONG TIME." The bad wasn't beaten overnight. It took a long time. But it happened. And yet, vigilance remains here, too. Because in the example of slavery, look how much of a subversive sneaky-ass attempt there is, NOW, trying to rewrite history about slavery, how it wasn't so bad, how blacks really had it good, how they lived better and ate regularly and all that shit under slavery so how could it have been as bad as people think it was? THAT IS HAPPENING NOW!!!! And we have to counter-act it.

Only when abortion has the same legal status as any other health procedure can it be fully integrated into women’s reproductive healthcare.

by Joyce Arthur

The repeal of abortion laws is supported by evidence from Canada, the only democratic country in the world with no laws restricting abortion since 1988. Abortions have since become earlier and safer, and the number of abortions has become moderate and stable. Current abortion care reflects what most Canadians are comfortable with, and women and doctors act in a timely and responsible manner, with no need for regulation.

Several legal arguments help build the case for abortion law repeal. A constitutional guarantee of women’s equality can be used to overturn abortion laws, and ensure that abortion is funded by the healthcare system as a medically-required service. Freedom of religion, the right to privacy, and the right to self-defense can also be used to strike down laws. All anti-abortion restrictions are unjust, harmful, and useless because they rest on traditional religious and patriarchal foundations. Laws kill and injure women, violate their human rights and dignity, impede access to abortion, and obstruct healthcare professionals.

by Joyce Arthur

The repeal of abortion laws is supported by evidence from Canada, the only democratic country in the world with no laws restricting abortion since 1988. Abortions have since become earlier and safer, and the number of abortions has become moderate and stable. Current abortion care reflects what most Canadians are comfortable with, and women and doctors act in a timely and responsible manner, with no need for regulation.

Several legal arguments help build the case for abortion law repeal. A constitutional guarantee of women’s equality can be used to overturn abortion laws, and ensure that abortion is funded by the healthcare system as a medically-required service. Freedom of religion, the right to privacy, and the right to self-defense can also be used to strike down laws. All anti-abortion restrictions are unjust, harmful, and useless because they rest on traditional religious and patriarchal foundations. Laws kill and injure women, violate their human rights and dignity, impede access to abortion, and obstruct healthcare professionals.

Solutions for Repealing Anti-abortion Laws
Here’s some suggested solutions to get rid of harmful anti-abortion laws:
* Guarantee women’s equality in countries’ constitutions.
* Collect evidence of laws’ harms, find plaintiffs, and challenge laws in court.
* Lobby government against abortion restrictions (meet with legislators, submit briefs).
* Educate media, government, health professionals, and public about the harm and futility of abortion restrictions.
* Challenge the religious basis of anti-abortion laws, and keep church and state separate.
* Change the rhetoric: Abortion is not a “necessary evil.” Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.
* Empower women in society by changing public policies.
* Change patriarchal attitudes about women and motherhood through advocacy and education.
* Prioritize childcare and child-rearing as a universal concern, not a “woman’s issue.”

Some of these proposed solutions are obviously very difficult and would take many years. But one has to start somewhere.

To conclude, no country needs any laws against abortion whatsoever. We can trust women to exercise their sensible moral judgment; we can trust doctors to exercise their professional medical judgment, and that’s all we need to regulate the process.

http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/repeal.pdf

Some of which I'd consider ill-advised; e.g. "fuck rare".

When looking for solutions to problems, I have a bias toward ones about which we have some degree of control over.

How's your approach working? Win any important elections recently?

this midterm?

Are you infuckingsane?

Also, FTR, Nye Bevan coined the phrase "fuck rare crowd". I and others went to great lengths to explain our position and it was a lot deeper than that characterization.

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=162269

But I saw nothing in there that I disagreed with.

No, I wouldn't advise our side going on television news shows and using that terminology. But that also doesn't mean we have to buy into the other side's framing about it and start from a point of large concession.

but, you know some people cannot resist blaming women for the sorry situation conservatives caused. Unfucking believeable stretch, this one is. Ridiculous!

and like some other issues (i.e., guns, race, unions, taxes, etc), the GOP rhetoric has made it so radioactive to the point where even staunch liberal Dems are hesitant to publicly address the issue, especially when elections are near...

rights to our own bodies.

That's about it. Only 12% of the vote in the mid-terms was cast by millennials. Perhaps they didn't know that things like reproductive choice were on the ballot, one way or another. Perhaps they didn't know that Republicans want to take those choices away.

Perhaps we should let them know before the next election.

freedom has taken place prior to these elections.

State legislators pass these laws. Elect different ones. That hasn't happened, so this continues.

Women haven't seen anything yet.

The narrative is already in place. Birth control pills are abortifacients.

If we don't stick together on women's rights, we are all lost. All of us.

And it goes back to the fact that we can't let religion go. Examples of warped beliefs that come from religion:

Sex isn't meant to be enjoyed for its own sake. It's meant to be a chore that one simply suffers through in order to do God's work of multiplying the faithful.

Women who have sex for its own sake and enjoy it are thumbing their nose at God, who created women for the sole purpose of suffering through sex as a chore and motherhood as a vocation. The only exception to motherhood as a vocation is celibate purity and being "married" to God. If they do get pregnant as a result of their activity, it is a burden meant to be endured but also a joy meant to be celebrated. Women have no right to complain about, let alone seek "unnatural" methods of controlling, their God-given destiny as vessels of the unborn. If they do, they are evil and wicked and they must be punished. Women who forego childbirth completely (and are not celibate) are selfish narcissists with no soul who must also be punished.

Men, on the other hand, are under no such obligation to withhold their physical demands, unless they enter into vocations of the faith. Man's job is to spread his seed wherever and whenever possible, and women's job is to suck it up, close their eyes and think of England. There is no such thing as "rape," simply because God gave man the right to hold dominion over woman and do whatever with her body as he so pleased. If such a thing called "rape" occurs, the fault is on the woman for wearing clothes that revealed her body and tempted him to do things of the flesh. Or, basically, for being female and complaining. Plus, there is no way that a pregnancy will occur in rape because the body knows it's under stress and will automatically shut the reproductive organs down. (Todd Akin)

We must never tell the young about anything sex-related, lest it corrupt their innocence and tempt them to "experiment." We must keep promoting the "Just say no" campaign and wash our hands of those who didn't listen to the rules. Teenage pregnancy is punishment from God for fornicating.

TL;DR. JESUS HATES BOOBEHS BCUZ TEH WIMMENZ IZ EVIL!!!

People here complain about the NRA, but they do fight well to protect the right to own firearms. When a curtailment is proposed, they jump all over it and fight it.

We didn't do that with abortion, and allowed "reasonable compromise" after "reasonable compromise" to boil our frog. If someone wants to ban something, they rarely go right after it. They keep chipping away at it until it is able to be destroyed in a swift blow. Pass laws that make it difficult to do. Make laws with onerous regulations to drive businesses out of the industry. Make people miserable such that one must almost be a masochist to want to do the opposed thing.

The TRAP, informed consent, Ultrasound, waiting periods, and person hood laws did just that.

As long as we give religions freedom, they will exploit that freedom to take away the freedoms of others.

No other countries allow barbaric religions to have such a foothold on the public narrative as ours. Well, no civilized countries anyway. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are the Islamic hellholes and the green hills of perpetually fighting Ireland. Geez, even Israel doesn't enforce Judaism into people's bodies or sex lives. "Life" begins at first breath, which technically (though I am not up on the exact wording of the law) means that abortion is acceptable up to nine months of a pregnancy. No vague bullshit about "viability" or other weasel words like that.

Besides the majority of Islamic-dominated countries, there are no other authoritarian theocracies in the entire world. One can make an argument that Russia is ruled by Putin's orthodoxy and Ireland is still under the thumb of the Catholic Church (far as I know, the population of Vatican City, consisting solely of the Pope and celibate clergy, has a birth rate of 0). Some European countries have "official" religions; however, they are far more secular than we are in the United States, where laissez-faire policies on "religious freedom" force the government's hands to be tied when dealing with matters of "how one exercises the faith." This perverse exploitation of a loophole in the vaguely-worded First Amendment is what allowed Hobby Lobby to declare itself a church for all intents and purposes, and the USCCB to become a legitimately recognized political advocacy organization. Wherever religion holds sway, so does fear. Especially fear of women's autonomy and, yes, fear of sex.

I'm not saying to go forcibly and brutally atheistic like China or the USSR. I'm saying that -- with (zero) apologies to Grover Norquist -- we need to make religion's influence on public life so small that we drown it in a font of holy water.

is because religion THRIVES with Martyrs. Religion's main purpose is to help people killand die, two things most people do not want to do. If you start killing the religious, all you do is take what would have been a very unglorious common life and make them believe they have gotten a one way ticket to God.

The best way to kill religion is to treat it like any vice: make it socially unacceptable, a nuisance, whose needs are easily filled elsewhere.

People are far enough removed from the dark reality that they can't remember it. They don't remember a time when people were working for pennies. They can't fathom children having to work so their family can afford to eat. They think their company actually cares about their working conditions. They are so immersed in the hard fought protections that they don't even notice them.

Republicans are succeeding in rolling back abortion protections because of the success of the Pro-choice movement. People are so far removed from what abortion used to be like that using a coat hanger, a rag soaked in chemicals, or an unlicensed abortionist are inconceivable.

end up fighting the same fights over and over again. You are spot on that this amnesia is not limited to reproductive rights but extends to worker rights and civil rights as well. The conservative institutions (e.g., religious and financial) have durability because they hold wealth. It takes no effort to sit in one place and wait for people to come to you.

On December 6th 1941, America considered the Japanese Navy to be a joke. A third rate navy that we could whip in a few weeks at most. Admiral Kimmel told a Senator over lunch during the hearings that we just didn't think the little bastards would or could do it.

We were arrogant, racism certainly played a part in it, but it was simple arrogance. We haven't learned much from that time, at least about underestimating our opponents. Sites like DU don't really help either. Because the only thing we're allowed to post about Republicans is links to stories where they are stupid, say something racist, or sexist, or are caught doing something like having an affair or committing a crime. We don't ever look at the Republican Party, their plans, and we don't discuss what they are up to on a larger scale. Imagine if we were supposed to plan for the Second World War but were never allowed to read or discuss anything the Japanese did other than to say they were buck toothed little idiots wearing glasses. Besides being racist it would be wrong. The Japanese were very intelligent, and very resourceful.

So all the readers here are of the same opinion, that the Republicans are racist, sexist, homophobic, small minded, idiotic, mouth-breathers who have to be reminded to shower every day or two. The truth is that the Republicans are smart. They are smart and they are studying us, and they read our writings, and they plan for our counter moves. We underestimate them, thinking that if we scream that they are attacking a woman's right to choose, we'll win. We aren't, but we don't change tactics.

One of the reasons we lost in 2014 is messaging. Basically all we had was "War on Women." There was some truth to it, but that is all we had. It was repeated all over, by every Democratic Candidate, and by most of the campaign commercials. It rapidly became overused, and then it became something that people disdained. By the same token, every election the Democratic party runs out and says this election is the one that we have to win to protect a woman's right to choose. I've personally heard that since Walter Mondale was our candidate myself.

People are discounting the threat now. Yes, it's true, but the average person just rolls their eyes and says whatever when they hear it.

The other half of the coin is that people don't think about abortions, until they decide that it is something to consider. Let's say that it's a normal couple, and the condom breaks. They wait a week, and the cycle doesn't start. The woman buys a home pregnancy kit. She comes up with the plus. Looking on the internet she discovers to her horror that the nearest abortion clinic is hundreds of miles away. This is no longer a bad afternoon, this is a major undertaking just to get there. Then there is lodging while you are there, and it goes on, and on, and on from there.

We can't do much about people who don't realize how difficult it will be to get an abortion. We can do something about the message of the Democratic Party. We can stop being single issue party, and get more widespread support. We can sit down amongst ourselves and come up with our issues, and then prioritize them. Tier one, things we will always stand for, tier two, things we'll try to do, tier three, things we'd like to see, tier four, fantasy land things we doubt we'll ever see but it would be cool if....

Then we can work with our candidates about these things. When the Republicans try to attack us on some tier four thing, we laugh and say that is our fantasy. We expect to see it about the same time that they come home and find (insert name of current Hollywood starlet here) waiting for them wearing only a smile with a note from the wife saying have a good time.

By doing this, we can first of all take possession of the issues that we theoretically stand for. We can broaden our appeal, and we can increase our support, and thus increase the numbers of our elected representatives.

But we'll never do it. We are incapable of admitting that the Republicans are smart. If they're smart, they might be smarter than us, which is simply not possible. Our egos will not allow us to consider that. We don't want to get nailed down on what we believe either, because that might not make it possible to tacitly deny that we do believe something even if it is in general.

This is why I am concerned already that we're going to lose in 2016. The Republicans are smart, and they keep out maneuvering us, and we keep looking at our failures and saying this is going to motivate people to vote for us. It hasn't so far.

Setbacks in some states must not stop us.

Because Religion has been used to divide women. Religion is used to keep White suburban woman voting republican, even if the person they vote for has anythign but their best interest at heart.

It also helps that many of the Women who have money and power are nolonger at risk for gettign pregnant. The Hillay Clinton generations knows that they no longer have to worry, so consequently, they let the younger generation fight for their rights. It is the real American motto "I got mine, so screw you."

Using the "rare" language plays into the demonization.

The Religious Right did a better job convincing young women that it was wrong, immoral, and murder when it isn't.

Politicians and voters gibber, drool and bluster when the subject of vaginas comes up.

I was a senior in high school when Roe v Wade was decided. Getting pregnant in high school wasn't an inconvenience and it absolutely wasn't something we chose to do; my best friend had to stop attending school when the teachers could no longer pretend not to see that she was pregnant - they managed to avoid it until friend was 6 months along. She was allowed to return the next year, but had lost too many credits and didn't graduate.

Ten years before that a cousin was kicked out of school and wasn't allowed to come back, even though she and the baby's father married.

College? Not unless you had parents who were well off and were willing to help you out.

Marriage? Ask any woman how her in-laws-to-be felt about their son showing up with a fiancee who had a child 'out of wedlock'.

Being unmarried and pregnant was considered an embarrassment to women's families - mom, dad, and siblings.

Is it any wonder we fought like hell to avoid falling into that trap?

Then things changed. Faced with the reality of legalized abortion, many organized religions began to change their views on single women having children and I began to hear the mantra that even though Jennifer was pregnant, she was obviously a good girl since she hadn't used birth control (hadn't planned to have sex) and hadn't gotten an abortion.

Within a decade society's attitudes had changed considerably and has continued to evolve to the point where half or more births are to single mothers, and I think that overall it's a much healthier attitude. But that also means that abortion is no longer the only thing standing between sexually active women and social (and economic) disgrace; I don't hear the same panic that used to resound in the girl's locker room or whispered behind the lockers, or see embarrassed parents resignedly telling their siblings that Susie is pregnant and, no, no wedding is in the offing.

Women are still having abortions, but the idea that that it's necessary to prevent women from becoming social pariahs or allow them to go to college or find a good job is gone, so the pressure to keep it legal has waned. Of course this whole house of cards is predicated on the idea that society will continue to view unwed motherhood in a neutral fashion; I'm not convinced, I think that if abortion is made illegal access to birth control will be next, and then the pendulum will swing back to condemning single women who get pregnant.

Oh, and there's a whole 'nother explanation about how conservatives took over the language battle and won.

We won in 1973. That cat cannot be put back in the bag.

There are almost certainly 4 votes right now on the SCOTUS to overturn Roe v Wade. One more nut job and it and Griswold, are toast.

These guys have no respect for precedent, as they have shown repeatedly.


In any case, if there are no clinics capable of performing an abortion, what does 'legal' really mean?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/02/no-choice-87-of-us-counti_n_210194.html

They are working hard towards that goal.

4 votes is not enough. And then of course we should have gotten out to vote for Dems so as to make sure it stays that way.

Oh wait, the Ds are the same as the Rs.

No, it's not naive. It would be naive of a right winger to think they are ever going to see it criminalized again. The culture has changed to accept it. Along with gay marriage. Right wingers have been losing this battle for 30 years. Merely because they desperately continue it doesn't mean it's not delusional on their part.

But Roe is not "settled law". It is not a constitutional amendment. And even Amendments can be ignored, it seems.

You count on D's holding the Presidency forever. Or at least whenever openings come up on the Court. Maybe so. But to act like there is no possibility that one more seat will flip rightwards is not realistic. Or that Kennedy might change his mind.

In the "long game", the ACA is a good first step.

In the Dem short game model, its the worst thing that ever happened in the history of ever, and since its not universal HC, we hate it.

The GOP will take every small gain they can get, cheer it wildly, and then push to get more. That's how the long game is played.

We on the left tend to have the patience of a fruit fly. We act like spoiled children, and then wonder why we get ignored.

I think that denying a thing to a person maintains the same effect as making illegal that same thing. For example...

Out of 36 clinics in Texas, eight remain-- all of them clustered around the three major metropolitan areas, denying women's health services to those living in the panhandle or west Texas.

Are you a poor woman living in El Paso or Amarillo? Tough luck getting to a women's health clinic-- none around for hundreds of miles.

The cat, as you say, is being placed into a box rather than a bag-- but the effect is the same.

to all the forgetful souls and those who haven't been paying attention is: go ahead... overturn Roe v Wade, but abortion won't go away. It existed before and will continue to do so despite the law. We are a capitalist society and where there is a product (e.g. drugs) or a service that people want, there will ALWAYS be purveyors of such goods and services. The big difference with illegal abortion is the rich will fly off to where it is safe or slide under the radar with a diagnosis of dysfunctional uterine bleeding requiring a D&C. The rest of the female population will be at the mercy of the untrained wielding dirty instruments or have to resort home remedies: coat hangers, toxic douches, etc.

It is incredibly sad that we continue to fight the same battles again and again and again

does not change the fact that they are morons.

The thing is, every once in a while, they spawn one who is marginally able to work their way through getting an education and able to go to college and actually finish. They usually go to college to further their instilled beliefs they grew up with. No matter how much education they get, they refuse to let go of those right wing beliefs, not matter how nonsensical some of them are. So, they end up using that education against women, gays, and whoever else the Republicans have decided to hate nowadays.

Lyons in NC is an example of that. Look at his history. He just one example.

Also, those of us, who mention how Republicans and the right wing Democrats have infiltrated all areas of local government to retain or get control over these types of things, are not paranoid and crazy. It is the truth. Even in public community college, I had to put up with a guy following me around taunting me and going around aggravating everyone else with his preaching and his right wing obsession. Plus, even though I was not in the Criminal Justice program, simply talking to my counselor after a PTSD flashback because another student tried to follow me home, led to the counselor sending me to the head of the Criminal Justice program. He wasn't the least bit interested in justice for me. He wanted to hypnotize me to "cure" my gayness. It is hell being a woman and gay in this fucking area. And get this, it is a blue county most of the time, but only for blue dog Democrats who hate gays and want abortion abolished.

It would do people who live in nice blue areas some good to experience what it is like to deal with these assholes. Those of us who were raised around them and have had to put up with them, finally learn how to just avoid them in our daily lives and that is usually the best we can do in between trying to survive on minimum wage at our major employer, Walmart, or whatever other retail job we end up doing, even after college. We could really use some help trying to defeat these assholes and finally get them out of all areas of power. They keep things this way down here in the south by infiltrating all areas of power, not just government. If you are pro choice, you don't stand a chance down here. Once you have a kid, though, you are on your fucking on. They don't even want a dime of government money to go to feed the kid.

The trick to understand the "pro life" bunch is to understand that they don't really care about the fetus like they claim. They care about controlling women. It is all about controlling women and keeping women down, blaming women in typical right wing biblical style. They don't give a shit about kids, infants, fetuses, women, or the lives of any of the above. It is about making things easier for men and men only. Women can go to hell. That is how they think.

I am just giving you a heads up to try to help you understand why things are the way they are, because until you understand how they think, you will never understand why they are winning. They are winning because they are organized and mindless and stick to their guns no matter what science you try to teach them. They can even be doctors and still refuse to change those beliefs. The fact that their goal is always to obtain all the positions of power possible in an area to further enforce their beliefs on everyone around, should give you a hint how they are whittling away women's rights.

I am just glad I did not get pregnant when I got raped. The way people think in this town where I live, I would have been steered away from the closest abortion clinic, which is over 100 miles away anyhow and not something I could have afforded anyhow, and forced to raise the kid. Until you have experienced their behavior and how they get away with it, because they are all in on it, you will never understand how they keep things they way they are down south. Understanding that and busting up their little party will be the key to dragging America kicking and screaming into the 20th Century. After that, we will have to figure out how to pry the oodles of guns and Bibles out of the hands of a bunch of drunken ignorant rednecks. Then, we might be able to drag America into the current century.

Imagine if a group of women organized outside a clinic that performs prostrate exams yelling at a man that if he didn't have a prostrate, he wouldn't need a prostrate exam and telling him how sinful he is for being a man. The cops would arrest them so fast, their heads would spin. A woman who is having a terrible pregnancy and needs to end it because her life might be in danger? She has to walk through a bunch of assholes outside of a medical facility preaching a bunch of judgmental bullshit at her AND put up with the pain of that pregnancy that is going horribly just to get some medical relief. The cops won't be protecting her or her doctor in that case. Until you understand why that is, you will never be able to understand why they are winning.

As reasonable people we tend to think our opponents are reasonable too, so we are late to the knife fight, and then show up with a spork.