He states "We don't define holidays individually -- the idea of a holiday is rooted in its collective, shared meaning. When the dominant culture defines a holiday in a certain fashion, one can't pretend to redefine it in private. One either accepts the dominant definition or resists it, publicly and privately."

That's bullshit. For example, I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas in my individual way. Christians celebrate Christmas ignoring it's Pagan origins.

His entire premise is wrong.

you took the words right out of my mouth.

...Pretty much every element (yule logs, decorated trees, gift giving, end of year feasting) comes from somewhere else.

What a pantload. Project much, Kirky Boy?

I celebrate family, food and football. If one doesn't like it, don't come to my party.

so fewer diversions to allow some quality family time.

our son is a nurse and has to frequently work - so we schedule around his hours - still find time to celebrate this day.

We love it also.

Those who feel curmudgeonly are free to do so - but not at my house. We enjoy the day being with each other.

I am a sportswriter, so I always cover a high school football game, but I love the whole day. Just a good time of the year.

People can enjoy what is, in essence, the Harvest Festival, without endorsing the fiction of "Thanksgiving" -- or ignoring the historical context of what it has meant in the larger US culture. Let me explain my position, which was what was taught to me as a young person by Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman.

"Thanksgiving" was, of course, one of the events that numerous peoples have had, to celebrate the rhythm of the seasons. In the northeast of America, Native People had 13 ceremonies per year; these were, of course, celebrated by the 13 cycles of the moon. Some were "minor" ceremonies, and others were "major." The Mid-Winter was most important, and lasted the longest, of the year. (It is still honored.)

To get together, to give thanks for what we have -- no matter if one is religious, spiritual, or not -- is a good thing. For many, it is a time to get together with the generations of the extended family. For others, it is a time to re-define "family" .....at a time when the family system has become splintered. And, of course, with Good Friends.

Today, it does not require investing in the myth of the commercial Thanksgiving, nor ignoring it. Rather, it provides a wonderful educational opportunity, where we can explore the true meaning -- including the Native American experience in the "contact" era -- with the younger generation.

The true meaning of "thanksgiving" was stolen. We can reclaim it. Our culture benefits more from the recovery than from any other option.

I will "recommend" the OP, because I believe you are a sincere, intelligent person. My "disagreement" is definitely not with you, or the opposition to the myth.

Peace,
H2O Man

Do you have any suggestions on good books for younger children on the Native American experience? I have a number of young relatives I would like to start introducing to literature about the Native American experiences. Our families are still very close to the land and appreciate the bounty the world bestows upon us.

Thanksgiving is the biggest holiday for my family. It is a celebration of our family, our connections to one another, and the world around us. We are far apart now, but we try to gather as many members as we can for this holiday. This would be a great setting to introduce this topic for our youngest members.



Thank you.

My favorite book for younger children would be "Keepers of the Earth: Native American Stories and Environmental Activities for Children," by Mike Caduto and Joseph Bruchac (Fulcrum; 1988). I think that most libraries have it, and good book stores continue to carry it. (If you can't locate it, let me know, and I'll see if I have an extra copy around here.)

Joseph is a good friend, and -- in my opinion -- the best able to communicate with all children (and of all ages). Paul thought the world of him; my sons included a couple of his poems in their book on Paul & my work.

I've made good use of this book with my children, nieces and nephews, and when I speak to children in the earlier grades in public schools. It's outstanding, and a fantastic introduction to Joseph's other works, and many other good books.

I believe that even in the Buddhist Religion there is a kind of Thanksgiving.. In SHINTO, the words used everyday "Itadakimasu" means basically thank you for the food (where ever it came from).

Japanese use that phase every day before a meal. Its not a thank you to the Kami or spirits, though they have a part in it, (which is why the hands are clapped together) but also to those who brought the food to the table, by growing it, and by preparing it.

ITADAKIMASU!

I'd like to share a poem that I hope you will enjoy. (It's by Joseph Bruchac, a Good Friend that I mentioned in post #16.)

Water Thanks

The drop of water
hangs from the faucet
pulsing, the heart
of the well still beating

I never drink water
Harold Elm told me
even from the sink
without saying
a prayer of thanks

The drop of water
trembles, holding
the faces of
all the worlds.


(Harold was an Elder who taught complex issues in simple, easy to understand, ways. I think that Joseph shares this talent.)

He is full blooded Lakota. We sat for hours talking about how close Shinto is to the Native beliefs.. I was amazed at the fact that two cultures separated by miles of Pacific Ocean could have so much in common. Than, again, I am reminded of how much the Inuit look like Asian people.. and sure that many came over the ancient land bridge between Russia and Alaska.

I understand there are historical fictions behind just about anything, but honestly?

You can't have a day dedicated to sitting down with your loved ones (functional or dysfuctional, have your pick) and eating food, presumably in the spirit of being thankful for what you have?

and stuff our faces but we really don't think of it as more then a day off, a good chance to ski too if snow is around, and a day when we eat turkey and drink a nice bottle of wine. My partner used to like the parades too but not really any more and of course the obligatory phone calls to drunken and dysfunctional family that live far, far away.

No praying, no decorations, not even a reflection the on the harvest or even the native people that were slaughtered by our forefathers. Well yes I do think about that part sometimes. Just being honest.

I really hope Thanksgiving doesn't start getting treated like Columbus Day around here.

Holidays were CREATED with the intent to oppress.

I thought you knew that.

I really despise this kind of shit.

let me repeat myself: fuck him.

One of the coolest things about you -- and I think that there are many -- is that I never have to try to "read between the lines" to identify how you really feel about an issue. (grin)

What is most valuable about Thanksgiving to me, is that it is a SECULAR national holiday. It is not about one's specific religious beliefs at all - it is about strengthening family ties and practicing gratitude. These are very important themes that deserve a holiday.

It also isn't an overtly nationalist holiday like Independence Day or Memorial Day or Veterans Day. Wow, 3 holidays for "USA! USA! USA!". Not saying they aren't all worthy ... but we only have ONE major holiday that is non-religious, non-nationalist, and not specifically tied to a person or group of persons. Yeah, pilgrims and whatever* ... other than the kids' school projects, what does that have to do with what people really do when they gather together for Thanksgiving?

* I am sympathetic to the genocide/ general bad treatment of Native Americans. I think a more worthy target of that is Columbus Day, as it seems to serve no other purpose except to give kids a day off from school, and also one more day when my trash doesn't get picked up.

whatever.

is a day we give thanks that we don't work for heartless retailers who would force us to work overnight to get a jump of "Black Friday".

who hates the idea of other people enjoying themselves. He's an incredibly miserable person who wants everyone else to be miserable too.

I wish I still had the e-mail I sent him once after one of his anti-football rants. He's a U of Texass professor, so I sent it to him right before the annual UT - Oklahoma game. Good times. Oklahoma won by forty points.

thinks it's odd because he himself has internalized that central message himself, and doesn't understand how anyone could NOT.

Of course, he's not really talking about what we, as individuals, choose to do on that National holiday. He's talking about the existence of the holiday itself.

Again, he's internalized the americanized version. Let's acknowledge that people have celebrated harvest festivals around the globe for much longer than the U.S. has existed. That's what Thanksgiving is, at its core: a harvest festival. I don't see a reason to replace that. Replacing the attached American myth would be good. As an individual, I enjoy my family's version of harvest festival.

Personally, I've always wished that Thanksgiving, as a harvest festival, was during the last week of October. There'd be less disruption to my schedule as a teacher; the Halloween frenzy would be absorbed while kids were at home, and we wouldn't have a week off followed by 2-3 weeks with spotty attendance and another 2 weeks off. As far as instruction and learning go, it would be a lot more efficient.

Of course, that would never happen, because commercial holidays are spaced to make the maximum $$$, which IS part of what Jensen is saying. And let's face it; American holidays are all commercial events defined by consumption.

...a kick out of all the people who camp-out at stores (Best Buy) in order to be the first ones into the store.
If you ask them why they go to all the trouble, most will tell you.."It's the game, not the prize"

Fine with me...have fun.

Eating Tasty Turkey.

Both liberals and conservatives do this. I celebrate everyone of them and glad we have them. I like Halloween and enjoy the candy. I will stuff myself on Thanksgiving with friends and family. I will enjoy opening gifts and the decorations throughout the city and stores and even say "Merry Christmas" from time to time....I know such a troublemaker.

Jensen seems to be a bit of a puritan (as well as an arrogant gasbag).

with a emphasis on "gobbly"

lol

I will be with my family feasting on my mom's turkey and pumpkin pie. While watching football.

While you're at playing the Grumpy Gus role.

But seriously the hate here for this guy is way over the top, considering that in the balance he is probably more correct then he is wrong.

How many Native Americans were ethnically cleansed within 5 decades of Thanksgiving ten to fifty million? Who cares its just a number and it happened a long time ago right. Also who cares if I name my sports team the Redskins, we basically killed off all the Native American anyway so there really isn't anyone left that should be pissed off.

Why should anyone let a little genocide that pretty much finished killing people off a century ago get in the way of a fun family party? If the Germans wait another fifty years I'm sure no one would have a problem with Kristallnachtsgiving, or wait they killed white people right so I guess that won't fly. Too bad the German Jews weren't from Ethiopia (or better yet Muslim) I guess that rules out Kristallnachtsgiving as an acceptable family tradition.

But keep on celebrating Thanksgiving and Columbus day, as we all know as long as it is a tradition that brings together family there can be nothing wrong with it. And remember fuck this guy for saying things that are inconveniently true

Kid reenact first thanksgiving

It's a silly, oversimplified, glossed over story about how the Pilgrims and Native Americans sat down and had a meal together. Nothing more and nothing less.

How that equates to Kristelnacht, I have no idea.

It might not be 100% historically accurate, but I don't see the harm in celebrating it.

...a modern version of the old Harvest Festival. It's origins and history of being based on a popular historical myth is irrelevant to that. It's like saying that I cannot enjoy Christmas or Easter because I am not Christian, despite the fact that nowadays the old pagan Midwinter and Spring festival themes are the dominant thing in those holidays, now.

And I end it by celebrating lots of pie and a nap and get up and celebrate cold turkey and ham. My celebration lasts for day and ends with a broth of turkey and small shreds of turkey and some wonderful rice and veggies.

Which is ridiculous, but way to feed the stereotype, buddy.

For this reason I support Thanksgiving

my excellent stuffing.

it's hands down my favorite meal.

Gotta celebrate Thanksgiving Florida style after all.

But pass the pumpkin as well.

Fuck a bunch of paying for what people did hundreds of years ago. No one in today's world is celebrating genocide nor has anyone ever.

keeping your family away is the BEST reason not to celebrate TG. The part about "protesting genocide" smacks of white liberal self-congratulation: Take a noble stand on one damn day of the year, then go about your daily business. No thanks.

Take any opportunity you can to enjoy the holidays with your families and loved ones.

Anyone who lies about their heritage to try and bolster their argument is not credible in my opinion.

even over the shouting & the food. Its a time for each other to make of it what we will. Over the years in my family we gathered at one relatives household or another for the different holidays. In time they passed on and we have tried to continue. Sometimes I break out old family photos from the bygone years and people will stay for hours gather around the table talking about those missing from the table.

wants people to work instead of having holidays.