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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRussia Invades Ukraine: Again. And Again. And Yet Again
Article well worth reading.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/11/20/russia-invades-ukraine-again-and-again-and-yet-again/
NOVEMBER 20, 2014
The Missing Burden of Proof
Russia Invades Ukraine: Again. And Again. And Yet Again
by WILLIAM BLUM
Russia reinforced what Western and Ukrainian officials described as a stealth invasion on Wednesday [August 27], sending armored troops across the border as it expanded the conflict to a new section of Ukrainian territory. The latest incursion, which Ukraines military said included five armored personnel carriers, was at least the third movement of troops and weapons from Russia across the southeast part of the border this week.
None of the photos accompanying this New York Times story online showed any of these Russian troops or armored vehicles.
The Obama administration, the story continued, has asserted over the past week that the Russians had moved artillery, air-defense systems and armor to help the separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk. These incursions indicate a Russian-directed counteroffensive is likely underway, Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said. At the departments daily briefing in Washington, Ms. Psaki also criticized what she called the Russian governments unwillingness to tell the truth that its military had sent soldiers as deep as 30 miles inside Ukraine territory.
Thirty miles inside Ukraine territory and not a single satellite photo, not a camera anywhere around, not even a one-minute video to show for it. Ms. Psaki apparently [sic] was referring to videos of captured Russian soldiers, distributed by the Ukrainian government. The Times apparently forgot to inform its readers where they could see these videos.
The Russian aim, one Western official said, may possibly be to seize an outlet to the sea in the event that Russia tries to establish a separatist enclave in eastern Ukraine.
This of course hasnt taken place. So what happened to all these Russian soldiers 30 miles inside Ukraine? What happened to all the armored vehicles, weapons, and equipment?
lots more...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Amazing that people can call themselves leftists while spreading lies on behalf of a rightwing fascist imperialist thug like Putin, and not get struck down by lightning.
https://twitter.com/UKinUkraine/status/535014678842593280/photo/1
https://www.google.com/search?q=t-72+tanks+in+ukraine&client=firefox-a&hs=eA9&rls=org.mozilla:en-US&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=nyVvVO35BKaIsQT0z4HgDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1440&bih=743#rls=org.mozilla:en-US&tbm=isch&q=russian+t-72+tanks+in+ukraine
Team Kremlin is getting rather tedious in their desire to lick his boots.
It goes to figure that the most shamelessly and brazenly dishonest government in the world would attract similarly dishonest sycophants to its cause.
Cha
(297,692 posts)veritable human pretzels.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)And critiquing reports months old (many of them simply repeating what eyewitnesses available had to say). Since the initial rumor reports there have been many photos and verifiable incidents.
This, btw, is how creationists make their arguments or climate change denialists make their arguments. The news media tries to report candidly, like scientists do, on information that they have available. But of course, it's easy to twist it.
Mistaking MH17 for Putin's plane is the most odious and evil charges, since Putin's plane was no where in the vicinity in time or location. The AFL2074 shoot down false flag makes more sense.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)about MH17. He's about on the same level as Holocaust deniers.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is totally inconsistent with reflexive anti-Americanism.
I mean, rightwing fascist imperialist thugs like him DESERVE your apologism and support.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)Knowing that the US has never violated any other countries sovereignty.
The US likes to mind it's own business when at all possible and at all times conducts itself with diplomacy and dignity.
1 During the Cold War
1.1 Communist states 194489
1.2 Syria 1949
1.3 Iran 1953
1.4 Guatemala 1954
1.5 Tibet 195570s
1.6 Indonesia 1958
1.7 Cuba 1959
1.8 Iraq 196063
1.9 Dominican Republic 1961
1.10 South Vietnam 1963
1.11 Brazil 1964
1.12 Chile 197073
1.13 Afghanistan 197989
1.14 Turkey 1980
1.15 Poland 198089
1.16 Nicaragua 198190
1.16.1 Destablization through CIA assets
1.16.2 Arming the Contras
2 Since the end of the Cold War
2.1 Iraq 199296
2.2 Venezuela 2002
2.3 Iraq 200203
2.4 Iran 2005present
2.5 Syria 2012present
link
William Blum:
William Blum is an American author, historian, and critic of United States foreign policy. He worked in a computer related position at the United States Department of State in the mid-1960s. Initially an anti-communist with dreams of becoming a foreign service officer, he became disillusioned by the Vietnam War. He lives in Washington, D.C
Blum left the State Department in 1967 and became a founder and editor of the Washington Free Press, the first "alternative" newspaper in the capital. In 1969, he wrote and published an exposé of the CIA in which was revealed the names and addresses of more than 200 CIA employees. He has worked as freelance journalist in the United States, Europe and South America. In 1972-73 Blum worked as a journalist in Chile where he reported on the Allende government's "socialist experiment". In the mid-1970s, he worked in London with ex-CIA officer Philip Agee and his associates "on their project of exposing CIA personnel and their misdeeds". He supports himself with his writing and speaking engagements on college campuses.
In his books and online columns, Blum devotes substantial attention to CIA interventions and assassination plots. Noam Chomsky has called Blum's book on the CIA, "far and away the best book on the topic."
Blum is well worth reading. Thanks for posting.
Looks like the "Now Hate Russia" theme is going to intensify in the next few months. What a disgrace. As if the US has a single moral toe to stand on, even if the lies were true. "It's a New American Century"
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Not surprising.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)And any one not agreeing with the Kiev version, evidence or no evidence, will be met with childish "Putin lover" and "RT" sucks....the Tea Party Syndrome is at DU on some things....remember Fearbola at DU?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)T-72s, to be precise (a tank found in Russia's army, not Ukraine's)
Google image search will show as much
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)These border areas must be being watched intensly, an armoured column moving across a border should be obvious with obvious evidence available from a credible source....like satellite pictures.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)1000 mile long border, at night, easy to sneak stuff across
there are photos of the Russian army's tanks, in Ukraine.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023
Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army.
At least one, they agreed, was a T-72BM - a Russian-made modification of a well known Soviet tank. This version of the tank, they said, is not known to have been exported.
"It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia," Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, wrote in late August when a tank like that was discovered on grainy footage of rebel convoy.
They didn't magically appear there
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)a Ukrainian battlefield unconvincing?
Do you have an alternate explanation for Russian tanks being part of a battle inside Ukraine?
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)we have photos that are widely accepted as evidence of an invasion:
And then we're given this as evidence of the invasion of Ukraine:
Pretty much proves Blum's point.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Have an explanation why Putin's tanks are being found on Ukrainian battlefield?
Besides the fact that the enemy of your enemy is your friend that is.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)Facts regarding T-72 tank shoot holes in IISS and BBC Russian tank theory.
<edit>
Here are a few facts which throw light on the actual situation:
1.Ukraine is estimated to have inherited roughly a third of the military equipment of the Soviet Union when it collapsed in 1991.
2.This inheritance included a large number of T-72s as these were based on Ukrainian territory at the time.
3. Although Ukraine decided to standardise its tank fleet around the T-64 (generally reckoned to be a superior tank), Ukraine has continuously upgraded and sold the legacy stocks of its T-72s, largely to African countries.
4. Ukraines armaments industry was strongly integrated with Russias up until the current President ordered a separation in June.
5. It is possible that Dempsey was confused between the NATO-designation of T72BM from the late 1980s, which refers to a tank with Kontakt 5 armour, and the post-2006 T72BM which has a different form of armour but which is reckoned not to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.
In any case, the tank shown in the video may well have been in storage in Ukraine as seems to be implicitly accepted by Dempsey in a subsequent tweet:
Karl Sandstrom @KarlSandstrom
@JosephHDempsey @IISS_org About the upgrade: They didn't do the AG or AMG upgrades at all?
Joseph Dempsey @JosephHDempsey
Follow
@KarlSandstrom @IISS_org No T-72 variants assessed in active UKR service prior to current conflict. T-72s in UKR storage/refurb for export.
8:35 AM - 1 Sep 2014
It is therefore possible that the tank was taken out of storage, rather than provided by Russia. Ukraine is losing a lot of armoured vehicles in its battles in the East and Ukraines factories are geared up to refurbish and maintain these vehicles. On the other hand, the rebels have demonstrated a willingness to bring tanks back into operation and to put those they capture as trophies into use immediately.
more in the comments that follow...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 22, 2014, 02:59 AM - Edit history (1)
You might as well have cited the DPRK's state media.
When your fake human rights group there starts addressing stories like this:
www.advocate.com/world/2014/11/21/it-gets-worse-russias-kremlin-targets-lgbt-youth-support
Then I will entertain the possibility it isn't run by fascists with ties to the evil regime in Moscow.
But, your crowd never raises a peep on behalf of Putin's victims.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid