I want to be loyal to all people and institutions I hold to be dear and who/that have enriched my life.

but mindless "obedience" is a whole different proposition, that I generally do not subscribe to.

I shoot for voluntary interactions. If someone is trying to push a non-voluntary action, one should always double check one's principles against it. Does it involve stealing, killing, etc... If so, I'm off the boat.

"You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." - Abbie Hoffman

The biggest threat to America today is it’s own federal government…. Will the Army protect anybody from the FBI? The IRS? The CIA? The Republican Party? The Democratic Party?....The biggest dangers we face today don’t even need to sneak past our billion dollar defense system….they issue the contracts for them. - Frank Zappa

I forgot where I read about this idea. Essentially, whistleblowers who proved truthful would win the lottery, enough so they didn't have to worry about getting fired, losing their benefits, or getting punished by the establishment in other ways. In such a society, the writer theorized, people would look for opportunities to become whistleblowers, and those in power, both corporate executives and politicians, took great care to play by the rules because everyone who worked for them would jump at the chance to report them.

The phony "progressives" don't want a debate - and they don't want to see the Democratic Party prevail.

Actively campaigning for someone who isn't running and who publicly supports someone else is also a sure way to lose.

I don't want the Democrats to lose.

And by voting for 3rd party or "independent" candidates, or by not voting at all.

And if Democrats lose, say goodbye to any progressive advancement. I don't want to see the Democrats lose.

What many people are beginning to understand is that both parties serve corporate interests rather than the people. The Dems have sold out through DLC/third Way infiltration.

It's a RW lie designed to sap support from the Democratic Party. And it only seems to be applied to Democrats who have been successful against Republicans. Funny that.

Dems have filled power positions with corporate tools during the Clinton and Obama years.

That line will inevitably read: "Dems have filled power positions with corporate tools during the Clinton, Obama and Warren years...." Talk about a lack of historical perspective.

Karl Rove is the piper, and you're the pipe-ee.

the ptb will probably take him out.

So there we are.

let's see that, then we can move on to another subject.

"Follow Warren and/or Sanders" is a litmus test. "OR ELSE" be purged from the party.

It's an authoritarian, anti-Democratic, Teabaggerish approach which will ensure the defeat of the Democratic Party. If that happens - no more progressive legislation for the next generation or two.

C'mon Baldguy. You gt huffy when someone accuses you of it spuriously. Why shoul you be free to get away with doing the same thing?

If you can't admit to basic facts, we have nothing to talk about.

Of his own creation.

Who are working to destroy the democratic party by claiming traditional democratic values can win elections every bit as bad as teapublicons...because they want to destroy the party by making it...gasp...Change! and they want purity oaths too

It is

& what it represents.

The Democratic Party is a coalition of a dozen or so more-or-less well-defined interest groups, and the myriad of conjunctions & overlaps of those groups. The purists here only claim represent ONE of those groups - and not a very honest claim at that, since what they advocate will destroy the only party that offers and has delivered the opportunity for real progress.

The only way the real progressives win is if the Democratic Party wins - with the entire coalition together. That's the meaning of "party loyalty" & "party unity".

I have the archaic idea that my vote belongs to me. Not to the party. If the party, or its candidates, stray beyond my nose holding abilities in its policies or principles I feel no obligation to vote for it or the candidates it proposes. I am not a "purist". I just vote for policies and principles that I'm comfortable with and withhold my vote, or vote 3rd party, for those I'm against despite which party advocates them.

The purists stand for division.

The "purists" stand for conformity and obedience and ignore democracy in favor of party purity.

That's all you ever do. Why not join freeperville with your kindred spirits?

Liberals want actual progress, recognize that there are processes & procedures required to get there, understand that wishing dictatorial powers on one person is fantasy, but that it takes hard work by many dedicated individuals to achieve these ends, and while sometimes may be disappointed, are not disheartened in the quest to improve their lives & the lives of others.

OTOH, "liberals" only say they want progress, refuse to accept that simply wishing for something won't make it so, pout like spoiled children when they don't get their way, and - just like freepers, are likely to stab good Democrats in the back, and - just like freepers, have an authoritarian streak that demands purity, calling for purges and litmus tests, and - just like freepers, are happy to see the Democratic Party defeated.

Sid

How embarrassing for you.

The call to stupid: Propaganda and the calculated replacement of logical argument with emotional idiocy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3652852

It's the Call to Stupid.

The incessant bullying to think like a stupid person.

We hate Ron Paul; therefore, if he is against bombing we should be for it.

We hate Glenn Greenwald; therefore, NSA spying is unimportant.

We hate Putin; therefore, nothing in that op-ed, not even one WORD, could possibly have any merit to it.


We are to blindly pick a side and wave our flags, STUPIDLY, belligerently, defiantly
ignoring any and all moral, ethical, and intellectual complexities.

We are incessantly bullied to think STUPIDLY, because STUPID THINKING lets corporate thieves and warmongers off the hook.

that asks for obedience to Democrats.

we must be obedient to Democrats.

Thanks.

Quite a few (seven, I think) of these links don't work anymore. For one of them, I was able to find an alternate link. I put them here anyway so you can see the titles of the missing OP's. I can't remember ever finding so many broken links on DU for a single topic.


This isn't about safety, it's about obedience
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9608293

Excessive Loyalty and Obedience to Malevolent Authority
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9588288
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5751677
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/593

The stench of fascism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7765352

Is obedience the only way to avoid police brutality?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025544025

Either you are a rebel or a slave---Choose---But choose fast .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2030062

OBEY. - I'm a cop. If you don't want to get hurt, don't
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025411360

Submissiveness required by zero tolerance, no excuses (Corporate Education)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11249559 http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025714928

Seven years of silence, chanting, and obedience: Argosy Collegiate Charter School
http://edushyster.com/?p=1425

Why Are Americans So Easy to Manipulate and Control ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101644596

With little fanfare, the TSA has expanded to sporting events, music ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023416581

Noam Chomsky: How the Young Are Indoctrinated to Obey
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101623207

Submissiveness required by zero tolerance, no excuses.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11249559

Students Terrorized as Police Officers Draw Guns During Unannounced ‘Active Shooter Drill’ At Elementary School
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025826009

'I don't want to go to Disney World anymore': Parents' fury as TSA agents detain their crying, wheelchair-bound daughter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022408410

Police set up roadblocks to 'voluntarily' collect DNA, blood
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023016470

The President decides. TSA groping will continue ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9598152

Civil liberties disappear in the 2012 Democratic platform.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021267747

TSA detains woman for "attitude"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021317581

Pennsylvania street checkpoint asks drivers for mouth swabs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024195885

The National Security State: Cultivating a Culture of Fear and Obedience
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017222034

Knowledge linked to power, not only assumes the authority of 'the truth' but has the power to make itself true. All knowledge, once applied in the real world, has effects, and in that sense at least, 'becomes true.' Knowledge, once used to regulate the conduct of others, entails constraint, regulation and the disciplining of practice. Thus, 'there is no power relation without the correlative constitution of a field of knowledge, nor any knowledge that does not presuppose and constitute at the same time, power relations.

That was an excellent post and link.

never be a follower, always do what you think is right.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi

Corporations, and corporate candidates, are, by definition, driven only by the growth of the corporation's power and profit, never by what is right for human beings.

Obedience and accepting the system is made synonymous with being perceived as a "mature adult" rather than a "childish rebel without a clue".

When you drive on the right side of the street, are you engaging in "obedience" because the law tells you to, or just behaving rationally?

A sane, decent person doesn't obey the law - they agree with the law most of the time, and act to uphold it because it's a rational set of rules.

The fact is very few people obey the law. People obey the state, for fear of reprisal.

Therein lies a crucial challenge to society, because rational people's decisions to follow the law are conditional, and irrational/cowardly people's decisions have nothing to do with the law - only with the arbitrary power of enforcement organizations.

King George's turd cousins would still be stealing all the loot.

One minor quibble: The guy's name is Ellsberg. Daniel Ellsberg.