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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 02:07 AM Dec 2014

Anybody else ever wonder if the 1918 flu was a bioweapon?

Not to be or anything, but I've always half-wondered that in the back of my mind.

Now, viruses were not specifically isolated for another decade or so, but their existence had been proven and they could be cultured. Genetic engineering did not exist, but evolution was widely understood, and strains of virus could be cultured and tested for infectiousness and selected based on that.

The Central Powers' and Entente's use of chemical weapons suggests to me they wouldn't have been squeamish about using it to "win" the war. But you don't even really need to posit a state behind it; this after all was a war started by suicide bombers from an international terrorist cell. The Black Hand, the Bolsheviks, radical-right monarchists, anarchists, pan-Islamists, Zionists, Irish Republicans, hell even Mexican irredentists could have wanted to "bring the system crashing down" (which it certainly did).



The Great War was a big enough disruption to travel and nutrition patterns that the pandemic probably doesn't need another explanation, but I've just always wondered.

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Anybody else ever wonder if the 1918 flu was a bioweapon? (Original Post) Recursion Dec 2014 OP
In 1918, science was not advanced enough to make that possible. Jenoch Dec 2014 #1
Actually they didn't have to be advanced, blankets with small pox were given to native Americans still_one Dec 2014 #7
A few blankets in the 18th century Jenoch Dec 2014 #12
Some interesting backstory: Orrex Dec 2014 #25
absent a defense? no jberryhill Dec 2014 #2
No shenmue Dec 2014 #3
No, but it killed my grandmother. elleng Dec 2014 #4
My grandmother also, oldest child of 6 was 8 and a 13 day old baby. Thinkingabout Dec 2014 #26
Yes, lots. elleng Dec 2014 #27
No, not a chance. Warpy Dec 2014 #5
Since it infected all sides I doubt it. still_one Dec 2014 #6
It was in advance of a Martian invasion wyldwolf Dec 2014 #16
I don't know what I was thinking. I take back everything I said still_one Dec 2014 #19
they said it became so infectious from the herds set up to feed troops in WWi. pansypoo53219 Dec 2014 #8
No Derek V Dec 2014 #9
That's like saying the Black Plague was a bioweapon. Archae Dec 2014 #10
I had read that it was brought to this country originally by U.S. soldiers returning from the CTyankee Dec 2014 #18
There's an excellent book about it mnhtnbb Dec 2014 #11
The Great Pandemic PADemD Dec 2014 #13
absolutely no. Javaman Dec 2014 #14
I truly think that would have been impossible, MineralMan Dec 2014 #15
Too much Doctor Who? MrScorpio Dec 2014 #17
I hate to disagree with you MrScorpio, but there is no such thing as CBGLuthier Dec 2014 #21
No... Blue_Tires Dec 2014 #20
I don't think it was done deliberately. bemildred Dec 2014 #22
Nope, not at all. Avalux Dec 2014 #23
No. It started here in the US first kydo Dec 2014 #24

still_one

(92,403 posts)
7. Actually they didn't have to be advanced, blankets with small pox were given to native Americans
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 05:29 AM
Dec 2014

Which did not require any advanced knowledge

However, in this case, and since the whole world was vulnerable I highly doubt it

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
12. A few blankets in the 18th century
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 06:50 AM
Dec 2014

are not really really comparable to what may have happened in any recent conflict.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
26. My grandmother also, oldest child of 6 was 8 and a 13 day old baby.
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 01:09 PM
Dec 2014

Lots of folks died in this flu outbreak.

Warpy

(111,343 posts)
5. No, not a chance.
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 04:56 AM
Dec 2014

While Jenner did the early work in protecting people from smallpox by inoculating them with cowpox, he had no clue what either disease actually was or what it was caused by. While they knew that something smaller than bacteria was at work with illnesses in 1918, they had never visualized them (not having electron micrography) and development of other vaccines was slow, slow work.

Medicine and microbiology were both in their infancy in 1918. In addition, much of the scientific infrastructure where the first flu had popped up had either been neglected or had lain idle during the years of the first World War, leaving their primitive means of dealing with it out of the picture. Agriculture and trade had both been disrupted, so people were weak and more susceptible to illness.

In order to build such a monstrosity, they would have needed to be able to do gene sequencing and check the result back in a time when they didn't know what DNA was. They've only managed to sequence it and recreate it in a lab in the past 10 years, figuring out it was an H1N2 subtype only when people who died from it were exhumed from Alaskan permafrost.

Tl,dr: No fuckin way, Jose.



 

Derek V

(532 posts)
9. No
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 06:01 AM
Dec 2014

Unless it was a punishment from GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDD for our violent ways. But since 90% of the bible is exceedingly pro-war, I doubt it!

Archae

(46,347 posts)
10. That's like saying the Black Plague was a bioweapon.
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 06:16 AM
Dec 2014

Epidemics happen.

And travel between continents became more common after WW1, so viruses could spread to people who had no experience or immunities to flu.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
18. I had read that it was brought to this country originally by U.S. soldiers returning from the
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 10:26 AM
Dec 2014

war.

I remember my mother talking about it. She was a kid in El Paso and she remembers sick folks being quarantined...

mnhtnbb

(31,404 posts)
11. There's an excellent book about it
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 06:42 AM
Dec 2014

Flu : the story of the great influenza pandemic of 1918 and the search for the virus that caused it by Gina Kolata

I got about half way through it but had to return it to the library because someone put a hold on it, so I couldn't
renew it. May try to get it out again after the New Year.

PADemD

(4,482 posts)
13. The Great Pandemic
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 10:01 AM
Dec 2014

The Influenza Pandemic occurred in three waves in the United States throughout 1918 and 1919. Learn more about the pandemic, along with the Nation’s health and the medical care system and how they were affected. Also, take a glance at some people who fought the Influenza in the United States.

http://www.flu.gov/pandemic/history/1918/

MineralMan

(146,331 posts)
15. I truly think that would have been impossible,
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 10:23 AM
Dec 2014

given the state of science and technology at that time. I doubt anyone would even have thought of doing that with the influenza virus. It just doesn't sound possible to me.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
20. No...
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 11:09 AM
Dec 2014

If you take a look at how awful cleanliness standards (food prep, sewage, shortage of medical care and bathing facilities) were towards the end of the war, it's pretty obvious...

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
22. I don't think it was done deliberately.
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 11:28 AM
Dec 2014

But you are right that neither side would have shrunk from doing so, if they had thought of it. And you are right that such "weapons" have a long history, extending as far back as we have written records.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
23. Nope, not at all.
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 11:43 AM
Dec 2014

That pandemic was caused by an avian influenza, which was the ancestor of our common human and swine influenza. Over 500 million people were infected, with about 40 million deaths, mortality rate was 2.5%.

The influenza virus is a particularly changeable and infects many species of animals including humans; it shifts and drifts and mutates over time to survive. It can jump species by combining with another influenza virus and creating a worst case scenario pandemic. This all happens without any help from humans, and the conditions were perfect during that time period that it spread unabated. Another consideration - a lot of deaths occurred from secondary infections like pneumonia, simply because the infected were not given supportive care (and there were no antibiotics for sencodary infections).

This will happen again, it's mother nature.

kydo

(2,679 posts)
24. No. It started here in the US first
Wed Dec 3, 2014, 11:58 AM
Dec 2014

In the military bases when all the new recruits for WW1 started arriving. It is believed to have probably arrived by a young man from rural America on a farm. In the barracks it found excellent conditions and spread.

When US troops arrived in Europe we brought it with us. It was deemed the Spanish Flu because there was an article written from Spain.

And when our troops started returning back to the States they brought it back.

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