A guy was saying the more intelligent and educated you are the less likely you are to vaccinate your kids. WTF?

charges.

It is almost becoming a fad in Socal not to vaccinate.

My husband and I got our TDaP vaccines several months before our new granddaughter was born, and our kids informed everyone in the family who would be visiting or spending time around the baby to get the shot.

This should be widely publicized with PSAs, and doctors and hospitals should inform expectant or new parents about the necessity, not just for themselves but for others, to get the vaccine.

ON EDIT: I don't want to blame this young mother for not knowing this was necessary. It wasn't something that was called for in the days when I had my kids, and I didn't know there was a whooping cough problem today. Fortunately, I was informed. We need more education.

The father's parents, however, refuse to get vaccines.
So, they don't get to see the baby.
Amazing how thickheaded some people can be.

in places like Walgreen's and by grocery store pharmacies would help.

I learnt that from Raising Arizona.

call for the vaccine to be given during pregnancy, regardless of when it was last received.

said that there is a case in her class.

This is a very dangerous illness. I wish people would vaccinate so that this does not spread and kill more children.

Really?

All her pre-natal caregivers were Anti-vaxxers?

If they were then sorry, I should have clicked on the link.

Last edited Wed Dec 10, 2014, 03:34 PM - Edit history (1)

In those who got it.

And BTW the "herd" meme is one of the most convoluted statements and totally illustrates the entire pack of logic inherent inside peopel who accept what Big Pharma is doing.

For decades, Americans were vaccinated and went forth to various sundry places across the globe, knowing that the purpose of the vaccines they received would offer protection, regardless of whether the folks they encountered were vaccinated or not.

Now this ridiculous and illogical and plain STOOPID meme has eaten away the grey matter of the 29 percent of the population that is rabidly pro-vaccine.

On edit: and one must also wonder why children at private schools, where people are more affluent and usually have more college education, the level of vacciantion is far below that at the public schools, where the parents are forced to vacciante as otherwise their children have to be home schooled.

Most outbreaks of diseases that are preventable by vaccines occur in areas with a low percentage of vaccination.

Herd immunity is a real thing.

Talk to missionary families where they and a few other families in a compound were successfully immune from diseases rampant in the part of the world that they were living in. This despite the fact that they interacted with the people in the community around them.

Only some ten percent of the world's population ever got the smallpox vaccine, for instance. Ten percent. Yet do you ever remember hearing of any American missionary families contracting the disease? (Mormon religion requires that their young people go to foreign lands and preach their faith.)

Anyway, the "herd" immunity notion is ridiculous and like the "anecdotal" meme, is entirely industry-created to protect that industry from a hit it would take if people were to examine vaccines with some intelligent scrutiny.

Risk to benefit is the way to examine vaccines, and sadly it is one of the more unexamined concepts although it is the most important methods.

Article/abstract at below link:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/787

"Acellular pertussis vaccines protect against disease but fail to prevent infection and transmission in a nonhuman primate model"
The study concluded that infant baboons given Sanofi DTaP (Daptacel) vaccine at two, four, and six months of age were protected against developing outward clinical symptoms of pertussis after being exposed to B. pertussis at seven months of age, but they were still able colonize and transmit B. pertussis to other baboons.


####

or as lay person but respected researcher Barbara Loe Fisher has stated with regards to the above study:

(Fisher has served as one of the Fed government's vaccine panel board members, which is not easy for a lay person to do,unless they are accepted by a large community)

"In my opinion, this study in infant baboons suggests that pertussis vaccine-acquired immunity has been an illusion. Although the vaccines may protect against severe B. pertussis clinical symptoms of the disease—such as paroxysmal coughing—they do not prevent colonization of B. pertussis bacteria and transmission of the infection to others."

Fisher migh be a little bit hard to folow, but what she is saying is that after a baboon has been infected with the WC anti bodies, the B. pertussis bacteria is then found in the lining of the throat. In a human being, the throat would perhaps be irritated and perhaps sore, but most significantly this person can then infect others with whooping cough.

See above reply with the newly added link at very top of the text portion.

Who is it "accepted" by?
Gullible fuckwits???

You write up your seminal work and start the ball rolling. Your paper reaches...

Step 1: Submitted
Then someone reads it and determines it's not a constant stream of profanities or similar obvious problems. If not, it moves to...

Step 2: Accepted
At that point, the paper is sent out for peer review. At the end of that process it moves to....

Step 3: Reviewed
Peer review is complete, and the paper appears good enough to publish. The reviews are often published with the paper, especially if a reviewer has specific concerns about the paper. Then you get to...

Step 4: Published.

Unless you're a scientist working in a particular field, it is unwise to trust anything that hasn't reached Step 4 in a reputable journal.

Study One

Pertussis vaccine and transmission

http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar06may-2.pdf

Pertussis is considered an endemic disease, characterized by an epidemic every 2–5 years. This rate of exacerbations has not changed, even after the introduction of mass vaccination – a fact that indicates the efficacy of the vaccine in preventing the disease but not the transmission of the causative agent (B. pertussis) within the population .

_________________________________________________________________________________

Citation Two
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no5/pdf/srugo.pdf

The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.
###########################################

Citation Three
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/787

Proceedings of the National Academy of Science
"Acellular pertussis vaccines protect against disease but fail to prevent infection and transmission in a nonhuman primate model,"
The study concluded that infant baboons given Sanofi DTaP (Daptacel) vaccine at two, four, and six months of age were protected against developing outward clinical symptoms of pertussis after being exposed to B. pertussis at seven months of age, but they were still able colonize and transmit B. pertussis to other baboons.

The baboons that were vaccinated with whole cell pertussis (GlaxoSmithKline's Infanrix) also colonized B. pertussis upon exposure to B. pertussis, but they cleared the infection much faster than the acellular pertussis vaccinated baboons—in 18 days compared to 35 days.

#####

To quote NVIC's Barbara Loe Fisher:

"In my opinion, this study in infant baboons suggests that pertussis vaccine-acquired immunity has been an illusion. Although the vaccines may protect against severe B. pertussis clinical symptoms of the disease—such as paroxysmal coughing—they do not prevent colonization of B. pertussis bacteria and transmission of the infection to others.

In this study at least, recovery from previous B. pertussis infection was more effective in preventing colonization with B.pertussis upon direct challenge than either whole cell DPT (Infanrix) or acellular DTaP (Daptacel) and that suggests transmission of the infection to others after exposure to B pertussis would also be less likely when there is a history of naturally acquired immunity."

My comment:
Fisher might be a little bit hard to folow, but what she is saying is that after a baboon has been infected with the WC anti bodies, the B. pertussis bacteria is then found in the lining of the throat. In a human being, the throat would perhaps be irritated and perhaps sore, but most significantly this person can then infect others with whooping cough.


Now, the researchers did not say that DTaP vaccine causes vaccine strain pertussis infection. B. pertussis vaccines (both whole cell DPT and acellular DTaP/Tdap) are inactivated vaccines and do not cause vaccine strain infection the way some attenuated live virus vaccines can—such as live oral polio (OPV) and varicella zoster (chickenpox) vaccines.

However, the lead author Tod Merkel did comment to the New York Times that when exposed to B. pertussis after recently getting vaccinated, you could be an asymptomatic carrier and infect others, saying:

"When you're newly vaccinated, you are an asymptomatic carrier, which is good for you, but not for the population."

What they are NOT saying is that somehow the vaccine causes you to become a carrier of pertussis bacteria. You would still need be to be exposed to the actual bacteria to become colonized.

So essentially, if I got the vaccine and a day or two later someone with pertussis coughed in my face, the bacteria could still take hold (colonize) for a time and not cause clinical symptoms.

Or if my pertussis vaccination was overdue, the same thing could happen.

A good argument for everyone keeping their immunizations up to date.

Show me.

Have added the link to very top of text, reply 13.

And since it's been about a year and a half since it was submitted, it doesn't look like peer review is going well.

From their "introduction" section:

How the poster extrapolates that into herd immunity is not true shows you what happens when lay persons try to read journal abstracts.

remark is to demonstrate the efficacy of a needed vaccine (i.e. small pox) and to show how it worked.

I made those remarks as a counter to the rather ridiculous notion of "herd immunity" which I think not only contradicts the entire notion of vaccine theory, but "herd theory" also demands something like 70 to 80 percent of all people need to be vaccinated for a vaccine to be effective.

So I am not in any disagreement with the words you place in your reply to me (reply 26) but I do what to point out I am fully aware of what you are saying. (Since you went off on a tangent.)

And if you asked me about it, I would say that

1) The smallpox vaccine was effective, and had long lasting efficacy. It is so effective that a close friend of mine who works for the Vaccine Industry said that us baby boomers could rely on the shot we received back in the 1950's to offer us a fifty/fifty chance of being safe from small pox should a non-genetically manipulated version of the disease somehow affect us (By our traveling or a sudden epidemic.) Of course, since this disease has been deemed to be eradicated, I guess that immunity is not all that important.

But it does show how at one time, the people inside Big Pharma actually created products whose efficacy did not wane over a short time period, as is the case of the Whooping Cough disease.

2) It carried a decent ratio of benefit to risk (The disease was a serious often fatal problem for the entire human race, although please note: most babies did not get vaccinated during the early heyday of childhood vaccinations in the USA - kids were in general older than four months before having it.) It is not at all like the hep vaccine, which carries a risk higher than its benefit when used on infants aged one day to two years.

and you bought it. Since you failed to put out a link, I'll just tell everybody where it's coming from, all other antivax hysteria sites lead back to him.

Mercola sits all day putting codswallop out on the internet and getting rich marketing supplements that do nothing except for hypochondriacs.

The Tdap doesn't cause pertussis. Flu vaccine doesn't cause flu. The worst disease out there is IGNORANCE and Mercola specializes in spreading it.

He doesn't "know things" the rest of us don't know. He's a quack, a crank, a dangerous propagandist, a huckster of snake oil supplements, and the patron saint of needle weenies.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=mercola

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/four-biggest-quacks-plaguing-america-their-bad-claims-about-science

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/joe-mercola-quackery-pays/

Yet the anti-vaxers universally claim "big pharma" is out to get them.

would be the envy of any oil baron.

Even big box pharmacies are into it.

He's a piece of shit, but man does he have a good scam going.

I don't care if they want sparkly unicorn dust for a common cold, but when it come to communicable diseases that were eradicated.....
fuck that.

Here is the citation offered -

National Academy, not Mercola

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/787

This is your assertion:

Enough said

Sliced and fried up with a lot of onions, it might not have been bad.

However, one beautiful thing about modern life is that we don't have to eat crap like that.

We can donate the placentas to be used as temporary skin for people with full thickness burns. I kid you not. They can also harvest and freeze cord blood from them.

He may propagate the information about this or that study, but he is not a researcher doing studies.

I put up my topic, here, which has noteworthy citations about studies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025940706

This should be good.

Sid

It is one of the great advances of modern science. And it means little kiddies, too young to vaccinate, don't have to DIE!

It's one of those germ theory of disease kind of things.

And like flush toilets, potable water, and fire, vaccines are one of the best inventions humankind ever discovered.

Get your fucking vaccines people! And don't listen to anybody who says differently.

Ignorance on top of of ignorance here.

Pertussis KILLS infants who are too young to be vaccinated.

Herd immunity is fucking science. And when stupid fuckers don't vaccinate, well, yeah that protection decreases, so that kids too young to be vaccinated fucking DIE.

Anti-vaxxers might as well be murderers.

you said

And you've posted a new thread spewing the same utter bull pucky.

Go away, anti-vaccine loon.

Thanks hosts!

instantly when you get a vaccine. It takes a bit of time for your body to build up antibodies and if you are exposed before you have built up antibodies, you may get the disease.

Your BS is dangerous to public health and should warrant TS'ing.

Reduce expenses increase profit-the main reason why healthcare should NEVER be in the hands of private business. The thermasol which was CHEAPER to use in vaccinations was the leading problem in parents holding back on vaccination. Another product besides thermasol would have been safer but more expensive. When will people ever get their brains wrapped around the idea that capitalism is not always the best way to go????

instead of single-use vials.

I don't know about this "Thermisol," however.



Unfortunately, since researchers now think there may be a number of environmental factors that are increasing the risk for autism, removing only one factor while the others are still increasing wouldn't give a clear result. For example, during the same period of time since mercury has been removed from vaccines, the use of Roundup and other glyphosates has been increasing; and they have also been linked to an increased risk of autism symptoms.

That is a serious problem in epidemiological research -- when there are a combination of factors that could be causing harm, how do you untangle the effects of each? But we do KNOW that babies were receiving, in their combination of several vaccines, more thimerosal than had been approved by the FDA. This is undisputed. And it wasn't necessary to include thimerosal in single-use vials. So that was the decision that was made.

both of which can contain thimerosal, around the same time thimerosal was phased out in infant vaccines. So babies are still exposed in utero, during the most critical times of their development.

Period!

Also, there's this thing called the germ theory of disease. And another theory called gravitation. And another called evolution. And... And... And...

Then there's the lunacy called anti-vaccination, which causes all too many deaths worldwide. Vaccinations wiped out smallpox worldwide. We are close to wiping out polio, which I remember in my youth.

If it wasn't for idiots spewing anti-vaccine bullshit, we'd all be a helluva lot more healthy.

Meanwhile, people listen to Jenny McCarthy and her idiot mentor, Oprah Winfrey. Jenny should go back to eating her boogers on MTV. And Oprah should just go away some place wherever she can enjoy her idiotic bullshit by herself.

Fortunately, it has been removed from almost all of the vaccines children are given, because the FDA finally recognized that the cumulative doses they were receiving exceeded the federal guidelines.

So, for the vast majority of children now -- with the possible exception of children with conditions such as mitochondrial disorders -- vaccines ARE safe and effective.

...that when thimerosal is removed from childhood vaccines, which it was over a decade ago, that autism rates would plummet.

Guess what? No change. Which kind of falsifies the thimerosal causes autism hypothesis. But that hasn't stopped the anti-vaccine loons.

It's still the vaccines!!!!!!!
It's still thimerosal!!!!!!!!

Run around!!! Set their hair on fire while they are at it!!!!!

Alas. Vaccines are safe, and thankfully effective.

Get your vaccines people. It saves lives, especially those who are most vulnerable.

And don't listen to people still flapping their gums about thimerosal. A tuna sandwich has much, much more mercury than a vaccine jab. And your body has a good system for eliminating ethyl mercury (thimerosal), unlike the methyl mercury in your tuna salad. BTW, both are well below levels to pose any danger whatsoever.

But, of course, those who just want to ignorantly screech about vaccines conveniently ignore the facts.

Science denial is a problem these days. Were that we could stamp it out with enlightenment. No wonder the idiots in the GOP can win elections. Even here on DU we have fight off ignorance.

of mercury.

We also prefer thimerosal free vaccines, even though the risk is less. There are too many risks that can't be controlled, but Thimerosal isn't one of them.

Ethanol vs methanol
Ethylmercury vs methylmercury

http://vaccineswork.blogspot.com/2010/10/thimerosal-and-light-tuna.html

in more than one study connected to autoimmune reactions. For example, this study connecting Thimerosal and ocular inflammation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6175282

And one of the possible triggers for autism that is still under study, according to the NIH, is inflammation.

But here is a study from Europe. The authors conclude that the reaction to mercury (in whatever form) is highly individual, and it is important to identify the subset of individuals who may have an inflammatory reaction.

Most of the researchers in the field, unlike dome DUers, don't think there will be a simple answer to the question of why some people develop autism syndrome, and why these numbers are increasing. There are probably a number of possible genetic factors as well as multiple environmental triggers, acting together in different ways in different people.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUpload/IMAJ/0/67/33611.pdf

Despite widespread exposure to met- als, only a minority of people develop allergic and autoimmune disorders such as ASIA syndrome. In order to protect these individuals, identification of clinical and laboratory markers of susceptibility is of huge importance.

But also recognize that thimerosal is a very low risk, much lower than tuna. Plus, it has been taken out of childhood vaccines.

And then there are so many people who are misinformed mainly because of the foaming at the mouth idiots like Jenny McCarthy, and Mercola, and all the others.

And by you! Because Thimerosal is not a risk in vaccines.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/

I use roundup too. However, I wont touch organic produce. Ask me why not...

Just curious. I choose organic produce if it's reasonably affordable.

I may have exaggerated a bit. I will not eat large scale organic farm produce for a few reasons, mostly though because I used to certify them as organic and pulled the samples and did the testing years and years ago. Anyway...

Large scale agriculture requires fertilizer. Organic farms are very limited to what they can use to fertilize. Manure being the fertilizer of choice. The problem with using manure is that real manure is seasoned. That takes a lot of room. A lot of what was going on the fields was way too raw to be called manure. Your body has really really good metabolic pathways for dealing with pyrethroids. Listeria, salmonella, e-coli -- yeah not so much.

Secondly, most produce today is treated with pyrethroids which are a derivative of the chrysanthemum, so they are in many ways, just as organic as tobacco juice or other natural pesticides. Most are processed synthetically, but like nitrates, you can get them from celery or from a salt -- its still nitrate, pyrethroids are still pyrethroids. Add to that, they break down rapidly in UV light and that fact that mammals break them down really really well via several metabolic pathways, there is really no reason to purchase the more expensive organic stuff.

But table salt is delicious on my french fries. Period.

Understanding basic chemistry matters, especially in these circumstances.

Five yard penalty. First down.

And I also know that current research shows that ethyl is much safer, although Thimerosal has been linked -- in some people -- to allergic reactions and inflammation, and that is a topic scientists are continuing to explore.

Think carefully on your answer.

seems to show that it is a combination of genetics and environmental triggers -- as with many other conditions. And as with other conditions, the weight of genetics vs. the environment varies in different individuals. Some people have genes that practically guarantee that they will develop a certain condition; others have only a somewhat higher risk, and need a bigger push from the environment before the genes are expressed.

So there is no way to speculate about anyone else's child.

medical and genetics issues, often cannot provide the black and white answers that many people would like.

But did you even take a vaccine with Thimerosal when you were pregnant? They have Thimerosal-free flu vaccine.

explanation to exactly what you meant?

is toxic.

Mercury? I didn't take mercury. That you would conflate the two suggests scientific ignorance on your part.

you had some degree of mercury exposure.

Thimerosal is about 50% mercury by weight. That is, if you believe the FDA.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

Thimerosal as a Preservative

Thimerosal, which is approximately 50% mercury by weight, has been one of the most widely used preservatives in vaccines. It is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate. Ethylmercury is an organomercurial that should be distinguished from methylmercury, a related substance that has been the focus of considerable study (see "Guidelines on Exposure to Organomercurials" and "Thimerosal Toxicity", below).

_________________________________

ethylmercury and methylmercury?

Then you really shouldn't be writing a word on this subject. I have only seen this level of scientific ignorance about mercury on display once before...in this thread....and that was an epic ass-handing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025321911

It's pretty obvious you do not understand what you linked to. It's pretty obvious you don't understand the chemical reactions detailed in what you linked to.

I will tell you without hesitation that this rivals some crop circle and chemtrail threads. Shit....it's moon-bombing.

Delete is my only advice.

You could start by reading the part of my post that mentions both forms of mercury.

proves. Like kudzu, it will go places.

and ethyl mercury.

Some of the replies to one particular poster where epic...including yours.

after all ethanol is just like methanol.

This includes salt. Claiming that something contains mercury and is toxic "period" (assumedly because mercury can be toxic) is ridiculous. Even water has a toxicity level.

eliminate the need -- then it makes sense to not add it.

Disqualifying perfectly viable preservation methods for no reason is foolish.

and that is why the CDC recommended that it be left out.

If it was necessary to include a preservative then they would have made a different recommendation.

Some vaccines that are manufactured and packaged in single-use vials no longer need preservatives due to modern sterile manufacturing and storage methods. The CDC doesn't require the use of preservatives, which is NOT the same thing as saying the CDC recommends against them. In fact, the CDC specifically lists the ACIP recommendation of NOT using thimersol free flu vaccines. From the CDC website:

from childhood vaccines, the total amount of ethyl mercury that children were receiving in their multiple vaccinations exceeded the amount that the FDA had accepted as safe.

Now that babies and toddlers aren't given dozens of shots containing Thimerosal, the amount they receive from an injection or two isn't exceeding the level that the FDA says is safe.

That is NOT a logical argument for reverting to the previous practice of allowing Thimerosal in all childhood vaccines.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
– Christopher Hitchens.

Thimerosal is both allowed and recommended in childhood vaccines as I've already demonstrated. Pretending that I'm making an argument of any previous thimerosal practice is strawman nonsense. I'm challenging your argument that thimerosal is unsafe. So you can either support that argument or you can't. As yet you haven't.

from most childhood vaccines because of the chance that babies could be receiving excessive amounts of mercury due to multiple vaccinations?

This isn't a matter of dispute, but here:

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines.


SNIP

At the time of this review in 1999, the maximum cumulative exposure to mercury from vaccines in the recommended childhood immunization schedule was within acceptable limits for the methylmercury exposure guidelines set by FDA, ATSDR, and WHO. However, depending on the vaccine formulations used and the weight of the infant, some infants could have been exposed to cumulative levels of mercury during the first six months of life that exceeded EPA recommended guidelines for safe intake of methylmercury.

As a precautionary measure, the Public Health Service (including the FDA, National Institutes of Health (NIH), Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) and the American Academy of Pediatrics issued two Joint Statements, urging vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal in vaccines as soon as possible (CDC 1999) and (CDC 2000). The U.S. Public Health Service agencies have collaborated with various investigators to initiate further studies to better understand any possible health effects from exposure to thimerosal in vaccines.

SNIP

Including what you pasted and bolded, even if one pretends it came from the CDC instead of the FDA. Neither agency ever made any such recommendation nor would they without any empirical evidence to support such a recommendation.