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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWithout prosecution for torture, we've lost all credibility
Last edited Fri Dec 12, 2014, 10:52 AM - Edit history (2)
Senator Barack Obama called those that broke US and international law by using torture, criminals. Candidate Obama softened his words on investigation and prosecution. Eventually, President Obama, gave immunity to the guilty parties and even worked to block any prosecution both nationally and internationally.
Whether you are a staunch Obama supporter, someone that has slowly found fault with his policies or have had problems with his actions, or lack of actions, from the beginning, the current dismissive attitude shouldn't be a surprise. The words, however, are a bit shocking.
Even with the attitude not being a surprise, that is not to say that the words are not outrageous. The one sentence, "we tortured some folks" is dismissive and should never have come from the leader of the free world. Even with Executive Order 13491, which ended the torture allowed by Bush, the words spoken by President Obama since May of this year, will make it difficult to defend ourselves and others against the torture of US citizens or any people. We will be hard pressed to oppose and condemn torture by any government of their own citizens or citizens of other countries.
I don't understand why this is being defended by anyone. I don't understand the excuse that the President's hands are tied. We have prosecuted those that tortured, including Japanese people after WWII for water boarding, and we shouldn't be any easier on US people. We didn't allow the Germans to get away with the "just following orders" and we should not be immune to the same.
It isn't just the report itself that will put our citizens and military in danger of being tortured, it is our lack of action to bring those who performed it, and ordered it, to justice. We have lost all credibility.
The links below are both reference to factual events and opinions throughout the last decade. I am not saying, by posting them, that every opinion is correct. I just wanted to post reminders of what was being said and done at the time they were published. Most of the links include links and reference to other relevant articles. I included one post from DU that was well received back in 2003.
http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/05/19/letter-congress-continuation-national-emergency-respect-stabilization-ir
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1605312&mesg_id=1605312
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/07/1349523/-President-Obama-s-nuclear-option-on-torture
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/16/AR2009041602768.html
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-justice-department-immunity-bush-cia-torturer
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation
http://ccrjustice.org/learn-more/faqs/accountability-and-prosecutions-torture
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012004743.html
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/02/rend-f03.html
http://m.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/EnsuringLawfulInterrogations
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)When that perception sinks in, it's not just going to be one Eric Garner deciding that listening to police orders "ends today." It's going to be everyone. And man, what a mess that's going to be.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-police-in-america-are-becoming-illegitimate-20141205?page=2
Substitute the phrase 'torture and crime against humanity' for 'coroner-declared homicide' and you'll see how President Obama's diffidence undermines the rule of law.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I hadn't seen that. And exactly, just substitute the words and there ya go
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Our national integrity has been trashed and will not recover as long as the AMERICAN perpetrators of these Crimes Against Humanity walk free and unindicted.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I tried to be as balanced as I can. I just don't understand how this is being excused by anyone. This is too important. Too big.
We have made ourselves the world police. And now that is reflected in ways that never should be happening. It's difficult to separate the lack of prosecution of police that shot and kill unarmed citizens and the torture going without prosecution.
SamKnause
(13,110 posts)has zero credibility !!!!
since the end of WW ll they have ignored international laws
they have illegally invaded countries
they have sponsored coups
they have assassinated democratically elected leaders
they have placed sanctions on countries that caused the deaths of millions (1/2 million children for the Iraq sanctions that president Bill Clinton imposed)
they declared a war on the citizens of the U.S. that has spread globally (The Failed War on Drugs)
they spy on U.S. citizens and the world
they protect Wall Street at all costs demanding that we use our tax dollars to bail them out
they do not prosecute torturers
they incarcerate their citizens with a vengeance
they have given police the power to kill without fear of retribution
I am ashamed and embarrassed at the things the government of the United States of America has done.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Makes me very sad. The hope we had just 6 short years ago. Just so very sad.
Dustlawyer
(10,497 posts)over their oil, and installed the Shah of Iran we set about the chain of events that caused the hostage crisis and our current poor relations with Iran. Everytime we have meddled with the other smaller, weaker nations it has come back to bite us in the ass!
We are the most hypocritical nation on earth and now we should really stop proclaiming that we are a beacon of freedom for the world, and all that other BS that is no longer true, if it ever was.
The fall of this country is happening much faster than Rome's did. We have no one to blame but ourselves. It is our responsibility as citizens to protect our Democracy and we have failed. The rich and powerful have taken control over all areas of our government and judicial system. They own the means of communication and use it to delude the general population that we are #1! American Exceptionalism stands for being the most corrupt, ignorant, brain washed, spyed upon citizens in the industrial world. We are not willing to face the truth, much less do anything about it.
We need to radically change our system of electing our Representatives to insure that they cannot be legally bought as they are now. We need to bust up the oligopolies in banking and media and dramatically pull back militarily. We need to insure a good education and health care to all citizens, and we will not be able to do any of this until Representative Democracy is restored and the propaganda of the Plutocrats is ceased. The demand of Publically Funded Elections and an end to all campaign contributions, revolving doors, and Super Pacs is where I think we should start.
It will require American citizens to actively take part in our Democracy, the failure has been ours for allowing this to happen!
marym625
(17,997 posts)After Trayvon Martin was murdered. The post was, "We're all to blame" caught some shit on that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023253648
I agree with you completely
Dustlawyer
(10,497 posts)my job." Well it is our job as citizens to do more than vote and serve for jury duty (if they even do that).
Now, in order to have a shot at ending the corruption of our political system we will have to engage massive numbers of Americans dedicated to ending corporate control over all three branches of government, or media and financial institutions. Sadly, we are nowhere close to that being a reality. Many here even agree with me that we need Publicly Funded Elections and an end to campaign contributions, but they are not even willing to spread the word while in front of their computers.
marym625
(17,997 posts)At the keyboard and every where.
I am afraid that we may be too late. Even with the numbers. Too much control has been taken from the people. The only way to get it back would be full on revolt. And a handful of people from Ferguson, NYC, Chicago, Oakland, twitter, Facebook and DU won't do it.
Dustlawyer
(10,497 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)I guess a couple people decided they no longer agree.
Interesting. Wonder what might have caused that.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)We still engage in extraordinary rendition, a.k.a. outsourced torture.
We spy on everyone, in the US and abroad.
Always money for war, but the number of homeless children has almost doubled in the last few years.
Minorities hassled and gunned down by cops at staggering rates.
A population that mostly rejects science.
(And it's all the Left's fault.)
We have some work to do.
Great post, Mary.
marym625
(17,997 posts)About how we rank internationally in education, wages, etc. But then the torture report came out.
Thank you
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)It means a lot coming from you, my friend
ann---
(1,933 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)We didn't have credibility from Day One. Yet still the rest of the world looks up to us.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
marym625
(17,997 posts)Although I believe that should be "looked" up to us. Since dubya that has dwindled
randome
(34,845 posts)It sort of smacks of 'American Exceptionalism' to think that our 'minor' crimes (compared to much of the rest of the world) make us an international pariah.
Other governments that have tortured would not be having the conversation we are having. It's small consolation, of course, and it doesn't even begin to address those who were tortured, but we still care about having these conversations in public.
As little as that is, it's at least something.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
marym625
(17,997 posts)That's true. But as the guy from Amnesty International said, acknowledgment is not the same as accountability.
When we start using the excuse that we're still better than the worst, we're headed toward the worst. Not you, I mean our government
randome
(34,845 posts)I would love to see heads roll for this. Not sure at this point if it's going to happen but I'm a little more optimistic today than a few days ago.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
marym625
(17,997 posts)And then it passed. Not going to hope that something will happen here. Especially not from within the US.
I knew you weren't suggesting that.
20score
(4,769 posts)but we were legally obligated to forego torture in the first place. So I don't hold out much hope that anyone high up will ever be held to account. Maybe some other country will indict.
Good post!
marym625
(17,997 posts)I have tremendous respect for you. Not to diminish my respect for many but it was coming across a post of yours years ago that started my lurking and eventual membership here.
I agree with you. I do think that another country will. I don't believe even the powers that be will be able to stop it.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)America is in deep trouble because of the insane and inane politicians and corporate overlords completely corrupting the system that should be working for all the people all the time.
When Cheney, Bush, et al, are standing before the international court trying to defend their crimes against humanity, American people might see a reason for believing in its government again.
marym625
(17,997 posts)TRoN33
(769 posts)TRoN33
(769 posts)Playing the popular online game I rather not to mention, I got an invitation to join this group which happens to have one member from Pakistan who have the screen name, Osama bin laden. Someone else in group note that I'm only one American on the team. She asked me if I took it personally with Osama bin laden screen name. My response? Americans never had and have no right to lecture on others anymore. My government is biggest hypocrites on this world. I don't have any right to be mad anymore. She said good answer. This team of 25 happens to be in top five for that game out of probably 600-1,000 teams.
marym625
(17,997 posts)If I'm supposed to know what game you're talking about, forget it. You could spell it out and I wouldn't know. Not a gamer in any way.
I recently watched Missing again. I had forgotten about Ed Horman suing the government. Amazing how long some of the guilty in that movie stayed in power in the the US. We haven't had the right to feed our holier-than-thou platitudes for decades.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)I cannot imagine how hated we must be around the world for many of our acts and omissions and wars, how many must want revenge.
marym625
(17,997 posts)For a country that's told not to be sanctimonious about our use of torture, we sure act sanctimonious to the rest of the world.
world wide wally
(21,754 posts)and the President protecting his predecessor for committing torture and war crimes.
In both cases, a privileged individual gets off scot free because of their connections at the expense of what is right. Only the country and the "little" people live with the consequences.
That's the truth and the American way. Too bad about that justice thingy.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Just keeps popping up and annoying the ptb.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)I was trying to put those in comparison earlier but couldn't do it as succinctly as you have here.
librechik
(30,676 posts)and "Most Americans" just don't want to. Not to mention any of the parties who could do something about it.
We like who we are. Pure, spotless, and heroic. We're number 1!
marym625
(17,997 posts)You're right, sadly. In the words of Scott Walker, "molotov!"
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Bobcat
(246 posts)An Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court at the time, Jackson was the chief United States prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials following WWII.
"If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."
International Conference on Military Trials, London, 1945, Dept. of State Pub.No. 3080 (1949), p. 330.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Thank you.
I recently watched the movie again, Judgment at Nuremberg, and it just made me feel more ashamed. Imagine how some of those Judges would feel now.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)Excellent post.
marym625
(17,997 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)... but it would require that someone step forward and fill the gaping abyss that was left when Robert Byrd passed. He was known as "The Conscience of the Senate." The Senate could sign the document that appears to be just laying there waiting for a majority vote and signature: The signatory document for membership in the ICC (International Criminal Court.) It has already been signed by a President (WJC in 1999,) and all it needs is a positive vote in the Senate and bam, we will be a member of the ICC. At that point, if we can't bring ourselves to do the right thing about our lawlessness, the ICC would be able to step in and hold our feet to the proverbial fire. They WOULD step in and hold our leaders accountable when they perpetrated crimes against humanity.
The only drawback is: there doesn't seem to be any "conscience" in the Senate anymore. It would have to be Harry Reid. He would have to whip up the votes and call the vote and then sign that sucker. PO wouldn't have to sign it, because it already has Bill Clinton's signature on it. And it would have to be done NOW. Before everyone leaves for Christmas.
Fat chance, huh? And that is so sad. Harry Reid might have been a boxer in his younger days, but there's just no fight left in him. He's probably spooked in the morning when he sees himself in the mirror in the bathroom.
Remember the 1977 interview with President Nixon, when he said "If the President does it, that means it's NOT illegal?" That's really how his mind worked. He really believed that. But had he not resigned, Republicans AND Democrats were poised to impeach him.
marym625
(17,997 posts)The people that backed Pres. Obama no matter what that are feeling let down and amazed made me remember all the Republicans that could no longer defend Nixon.
Also was thinking about Byrd. How he stood up for what was right. Voted against the illegal war and the Patriot Act. He is one of the very few that had a horrible past steeped in racism and actually admitted his wrongs and apologized.
Yes, the only one I believe that has the backbone to do it would be Warren. Though, there are a couple others. Maybe we should start a campaign to a few and see what happens.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... I can just see her peering over the top of those glasses perched low on her nose. "Now, Harry, there's another issue we need to take up before Christmas break...."
The window is about to close for two more years before the issue could be revisited, when the Dems have the leadership in the Senate again in Jan 2017. She's definitely got her hands full today, BUT if we want to contact her about this we can't waste any time. As soon as they vote on the 2015 budget, they're out of there. Their bags are packed, hell, their bags are probably already at the airport.
marym625
(17,997 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Thank you!
Are you going to DC tomorrow?
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... that I would be in DC tomorrow? I wish. I wish I lived there! I'd spend all my time reading at the National Archives or at the LOC.
marym625
(17,997 posts)The big rally is tomorrow. I wanted to go so badly. Even made hotel reservations immediately after Sharpton announced it and got a great rate at the Hyatt. But, alas, just couldn't afford it.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... too far away for me, lousy health. I hope C-Span shows up so I can watch it.
I hope your health improves or at least you feel better.
I am hoping that there is a coinciding protest in Chicago. It's going to be unseasonably warm tomorrow so I will be there. (Yeah, I am a weather wimp)
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... tonight, she showed some of the city names of different protests that will be happening tomorrow in conjunction with the DC rally and march. Scrolled down quite a way on the list. Don't remember seeing Chicago, but I'd be willing to bet that there will be a large one there too, somewhere near the Police Dept downtown? Wild guess. Get off the computer and work on your poster, then get some sleep!
marym625
(17,997 posts)Actually, it is just a mile from my apartment. The protest, not the police station. Surprising and perfect!
Get some sleep too. Thank you!
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)librechik
(30,676 posts)and a mere president can't change the policy. The civil servants in charge stay, the president comes and goes.
We have to get to the people who run our country and think torture is perfectly fine for evil people, as long as they get to say who is evil.
Who are those people that preserve the rules and policies of our secret institutions? The Senate is trying to exercise it's constitutional oversight powers now. It's a brave move, but totally co-opped and smeared by adversaries within the government.
Who are they? It's hard to say, because their names are largely secret or deliberately "minor." Infact, evidence is destroyed and withheld to the point where clarity can't be achieved.
We torture. Millions of us are fed on a steady diet of tv and movies where torture is part of practically every plot, and fictionally (and satisfyingly) always works. We will do torture again, because many people think it's justified, and the remainder are frightened or ineffectual.
We torture, that is who we are. I didn't vote for that. Did you?
marym625
(17,997 posts)I did sign the "not in our name" pledge way back when. Evidently, and sadly, Senator Obama did not.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)...the violence that ultimately backs the system shows its ugly head.
marym625
(17,997 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)K&R
marym625
(17,997 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)I know some people think it's wrong to respond to every reply to a post. I think if someone is kind enough, or mad enough, to reply, I should at least acknowledge them.
I am not condemning people who don't. Just what I think.
JustAnotherGen
(31,886 posts)Convicted our leadership in abstentia two years ago.
Bush and Blair for war crimes in 2011.
I don't know if WE will ever do it on our own. But for those of us with global reach - and with global officials and activists -
We've got to get busy. Because if we never throw Bush Co in prison - I want them to know they can't go to Germany, Italy, France, Republic of Ireland (had some interesting discussions in trips abroad there during the Bush Admin - they would be a good start), The Netherlands, etc. etc.
I'd also love to see someone like Paul Kagame (Rwanda) have one of the open courts Rwanda has had in the aftermath of their genocide.
I want them to know they are really only welcome in places like UAE for the rest of their natural lives . . . Or rather they can go - but they will be thrown in prison.
Didn't Germany already convict/give warning to Gin Rummy there?
marym625
(17,997 posts)And I forgot about Malaysia. Thank you. There is a South American country that Bush can't go to either for the same reason. Can't recall which and don't have time to look it up right now. I will later
Thank you for the post!
JustAnotherGen
(31,886 posts)Center for Constitutional Rights
Status
In November 2007, CCR, FIDH, and RAV appealed the decision of the German Federal Prosecutor not to open an investigation. On April 21, 2009, the Stuttgart Regional Appeals Court dismissed the appeal. See the original and the translated Court decision attached below. A motion for reconsideration was filed on May 25, 2009.
Description
Executive Summary of the Complaints Allegations:
From Donald Rumsfeld on down, the political and military leaders in charge of ordering, allowing and implementing abusive interrogation techniques in the context of the War on Terror since September 11, 2001, must be investigated and held accountable. The complaint alleges that American military and civilian high-ranking officials named as defendants in the case have committed war crimes against detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and in the U.S.-controlled Guantánamo Bay prison camp.
The complaint alleges that the defendants ordered war crimes, aided or abetted war crimes, or failed, as civilian superiors or military commanders, to prevent their commission by subordinates, or to punish their subordinates, actions that are explicitly criminalized by German law. The U.S. administration has treated hundreds if not thousands of detainees in a coercive manner, in accordance with harsh interrogation techniques ordered by Secretary Rumsfeld himself that legally constitute torture and/or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, in blatant violation of the provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, the 1984 Convention Against Torture and the 1977 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to all of which the United States is a party. Under international humanitarian treaty and customary law, and as re-stated in German law, these acts of torture and/or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment constitute war crimes.
The U.S. torture program that resulted in war crimes was aided and abetted by the government lawyers also named in this case: former Chief White House Counsel (and current Attorney General) Alberto R. Gonzales, former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, General Counsel of the Department of Defense William James Haynes, II and Vice President Chief Counsel David S. Addington. While some of them claim to merely have given legal opinions, those opinions were false or clearly erroneous and given in a context where it was known and foreseeable to these lawyers that torture would be the result. Not only was torture foreseeable, but this legal advice was given to facilitate and aid and abet torture as well as to attempt to immunize those who tortured. Without these opinions, the torture program could not have occurred. The infamous Torture Memo dated August 1, 2002, is the key document that redefined torture so narrowly that such classic and age old torture techniques as water-boarding were authorized to be employed and were employed by U.S. officials against detainees.
Why Germany?
The complaint is being filed under the Code of Crimes against International Law (CCIL), enacted by Germany in compliance with the Rome Statute creating the International Criminal Court in 2002, which Germany ratified. The CCIL provides for universal jurisdiction for war crimes, crimes of genocide and crimes against humanity. It enables the German Federal Prosecutor to investigate and prosecute crimes constituting a violation of the CCIL, irrespective of the location of the defendant or plaintiff, the place where the crime was carried out, or the nationality of the persons involved.
No international courts or personal tribunals in Iraq were mandated to conduct investigations and prosecutions of responsible U.S. officials. The United States has refused to join the International Criminal Court, thereby foreclosing the option of pursuing a prosecution before it. Iraq has no authority to prosecute. Furthermore, the U.S. gave immunity to all its personnel in Iraq from Iraqi prosecution. All this added to the United States unquestionable refusal to look at the responsibility of those of the very top of the chain of command and named in the present complaint, and the recent passage of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (see below) aimed at preventing war crimes prosecutions against Americans in the U.S., German courts are seen as a last resort to obtain justice for those victims of abuse and torture while detained by the United States.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I will have to read the link later but wanted to thank you before I had to go
dirtydickcheney
(242 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)because it would not have happened.
marym625
(17,997 posts)It did and we are.
Just all so fucked up
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)THANK YOU for the superb collection of links.
Everyone, please go to the links.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I appreciate that.