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kentuck

(111,103 posts)
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:58 PM Apr 2012

If you believe that government is evil...

...then you can rationalize almost anything.

Just as John Boehner, in an interview with Leslie Stahl, refused to use the word "compromise". He preferred to say "common ground". After all, if government is evil, then compromise is evil. It is immoral to compromise with evil.

Just as when there were 10 Republican candidates on a debate stage earlier in this campaign and they were asked if they would agree to $10 in cuts to $1 in tax increases. Each and everyone said they would not agree to any tax increases. If government is evil, then tax increases are evil and immoral also.

Ronald Reagan said, "government is not the solution, government is the problem". Since that time, Republicans have agreed across the board that is is OK to starve the beast. That is why they chose to run up huge deficits. It was the moral thing to do. They make no distinctions.

When Ronald Reagan took office, the national debt was less than $1 trillion dollars. It now sits at approximately $16 trillion dollars. In other words, from George Washington thru Jimmy Carter, the national debt was less than $1 trillion dollars. This was after the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, The Great Depression, two World Wars, and the Great Society. Since Ronald Reagan, it has gone up 16-fold.

Since government is evil, then is not immoral to cut food stamps, even if people go hungry or starve. It is not immoral to throw Grandma off Medicare and she dies for lack of medical care. Because it is immoral to raise taxes to pay for something that is evil.

Basically, this is the philosophy of the conservatives. Just as the crowd yelled, "Let him die!" to a Ron Paul question about whether a young man should be offered care if he was in a serious accident and was in a coma for several months? Wolf Blitzer asked if he should just be left to die? "Let him die!", they yelled!

How do you reason with such people??

.

26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
If you believe that government is evil... (Original Post) kentuck Apr 2012 OP
John Boehner IS the government. Iggo Apr 2012 #1
ergo, John Boehner is the problem RainDog Apr 2012 #12
One cannot reason with the delusional/insane/brainwashed/ignorant/totally stupid/....just cannot opihimoimoi Apr 2012 #2
. . . then you just might be a republican bigtree Apr 2012 #3
Our government, in principle, is not evil. MadHound Apr 2012 #4
our federal government, in practice, has done much good bigtree Apr 2012 #5
So you really do want me to go through the whole list? MadHound Apr 2012 #7
yeah, well, I think the good outweighs bigtree Apr 2012 #9
So how do you reconcile the evil it has done? MadHound Apr 2012 #10
let's say you begin with the proposition that the federal govt. is evil bigtree Apr 2012 #13
So basically you pick and choose what you weigh in the balance MadHound Apr 2012 #14
no I don't pick and choose. I just don't view government as evil. bigtree Apr 2012 #15
Wow, I can always tell when you know you've lost the argument MadHound Apr 2012 #16
this wasn't an argument bigtree Apr 2012 #17
So, pointing out what I see to be flaws in your argument is now belittling you? MadHound Apr 2012 #24
I offer this DonCoquixote Apr 2012 #18
Our government is of the people and by the people, MadHound Apr 2012 #23
And Republicans try to prove that government is evil NashvilleLefty Apr 2012 #6
LBJ and Vietnam, Clinton and Iraq sanctions, MadHound Apr 2012 #8
Your OP is somewhat contradictory. former9thward Apr 2012 #11
Perhaps you had not read...? kentuck Apr 2012 #22
I really don't think those people can be reasoned with madokie Apr 2012 #19
OK if Rick Perry was asked if he could name three agencies he wanted to cut... Initech Apr 2012 #20
Actually Rittermeister Apr 2012 #21
Got a link for that? Thanks and welcome to Du. nt Mnemosyne Apr 2012 #26
They sure have started a lot of wars. Zax2me Apr 2012 #25

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
12. ergo, John Boehner is the problem
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:03 PM
Apr 2012

the reason Republicans think govt is the problem is b/c they're too incompetent to hold their positions.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
4. Our government, in principle, is not evil.
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:30 PM
Apr 2012

Our government, in practice, has done much evil. Need I go into the litany of evil our government has done over the years, or will the mere mention of wars such as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan be enough?

bigtree

(85,998 posts)
5. our federal government, in practice, has done much good
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:35 PM
Apr 2012

. . . litany; wars excepted, which government loves to engage, but is loath to manage or take responsibility.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
7. So you really do want me to go through the whole list?
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:43 PM
Apr 2012

I really don't think I can, it is so long. But here are a few more examples.

Slavery
The genocide of Native Americans
Historical and ongoing interference in Central and South America
The environment(a category so large that it would take up pages on its own).
Our imperial drive to dominate the world.
Starting the crack epidemic.
The War on Drugs
The Patriot Act
And on
And on

Yes, government has done much good, but it has also done, and is doing, much evil. The question is, in the balance, has government done enough good to outweigh the evil that it has done. It takes a lot of good to outweigh the tens of millions of lives it has taken. I honestly can't say that it has done enough good to outweigh the taking of those lives.

bigtree

(85,998 posts)
9. yeah, well, I think the good outweighs
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:53 PM
Apr 2012

. . . but I don't think the comparison is helpful or particularly instructive. Our government is our potential -- as it is also our present and past. That's how I'd measure its worth, merit, or character.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
10. So how do you reconcile the evil it has done?
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:01 PM
Apr 2012

How do you reconcile the evil it is doing? Where is it doing enough good to outweigh the evil it is also doing at this very moment(not to mention the evil it has done in the past and will do in the future)?

bigtree

(85,998 posts)
13. let's say you begin with the proposition that the federal govt. is evil
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:09 PM
Apr 2012

How do you defend the good it does? How do you defend entitlements; protections; regulations; assistance; diplomacy; and the like, if you're asserting that the instrument of those elements of our democracy is 'evil?'

I begin my defense of government with its enforcement and defense of the provisions which flow from the 14th and 15th amendments; most notably, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. Our federal government is vital to the defense and support of these protections of basic rights and privileges of my citizenship. Hardly evil. I fail to see why I should weigh that support for my government against all of the other disputed and objectionable acts our nation has allowed and endured.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
14. So basically you pick and choose what you weigh in the balance
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:36 PM
Apr 2012

Rather disingenuous don't you think. The good, the bad, it is all part and parcel of the whole, and to pick and choose is hypocritical at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

bigtree

(85,998 posts)
15. no I don't pick and choose. I just don't view government as evil.
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:57 PM
Apr 2012

I can accept that our government has, sometimes, done great harm, but I'm not prepared to just demonize the entire government in a broad brush denouncement that it's 'evil.'

But, you know, I think that you've become argumentative and insulting. I'd expect this kind of confrontation from the right-wing which is desperate for government to 'get out of their way' so they can discriminate, militarize, and capitalize to their heart's content.

I guess I never expected to be attacked here for defending the primacy and vitality of our federal government, from which we (as Democrats) expect our protections, defenses, and assistance to flow.

So, make your last broad brush attack on me (and government) and move on to someone else. I'll make way for your superior righteousness.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
16. Wow, I can always tell when you know you've lost the argument
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 08:01 PM
Apr 2012

You start screaming that someway, somehow I've personally insulted you, when no such insult has been offered. Oh well.

I don't view government as evil, nor do I view it as good. I judge it upon the actions which it has done, weigh the good against the bad, something any sane or intelligent person would do. So far, for me, the outcome is still in the balance.

As I originally stated upthread, I don't view government, in principle, as an evil thing. It is what it does in practice that makes that determination.

bigtree

(85,998 posts)
17. this wasn't an argument
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 08:04 PM
Apr 2012

. . . until you made it one ('disingenuous; hypocritical at best; and intellectually dishonest' . . . your words describing my responses).

so typical of your posts, Madhound, that you can't just hold your views and state them without working to belittle those who bother to respond to you. This will be my last attempt.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
24. So, pointing out what I see to be flaws in your argument is now belittling you?
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 11:01 PM
Apr 2012

Really? Are you that thin skinned? Do you really take criticism that personally?

And somehow I doubt that this will be your last attempt, you just can't seem to stay away from stupid arguments in the quest to uphold your positions.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
18. I offer this
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 10:20 PM
Apr 2012

Our government has done evil, but usually because it's workings were corrupted by the Plutocrats, who, as China shows, will corrupt any government. It is tempting to imagine Washington in flames, but we do have to consider the alternative, we need a GOOD government, not an abscene of one where a vaccum will be filled by the Plutocrats. You might as well say "I have a bad brain thanks to cancer." it may be true, but that does not mean you do not try to get treated, as there is no such thing as a brain transplant at the moment.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
23. Our government is of the people and by the people,
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 10:58 PM
Apr 2012

The trouble is that we the people have grown lazy, complacent, and allowed the plutocrats to take over our government. I am not suggesting that we get rid of government, that is a foolish idea. What I do suggest is that we take our government back.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
8. LBJ and Vietnam, Clinton and Iraq sanctions,
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:44 PM
Apr 2012

The evil that government has done has been bipartisan.

former9thward

(32,023 posts)
11. Your OP is somewhat contradictory.
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:02 PM
Apr 2012

You say that Republicans want to 'starve the beast'. Then you point out the deficits which have been run up. If they really wanted to starve the beast they would not have not have let the deficit go up. I think part of the battle in the R party with the Tea party is that the T party thinks the establishment like Boehner just talks the talk but is not really serious because of the deficits.

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
22. Perhaps you had not read...?
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 10:50 PM
Apr 2012

Where David Stockman had written that their idea was to run up so much debt that the Democrats would not have any room to spend anything else on social programs. It has worked beautifully for them. Instead of spending more on programs that might be needed, the debate is now about how much they can cut from existing programs to bring down the humongous deficits...

That is what they mean by "starve the beast"...

madokie

(51,076 posts)
19. I really don't think those people can be reasoned with
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 10:23 PM
Apr 2012

Hence the problems we have

splchk, change thing to think

Initech

(100,080 posts)
20. OK if Rick Perry was asked if he could name three agencies he wanted to cut...
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 10:24 PM
Apr 2012

He said education , the EPA, and couldn't name a third.

Why don't we cut the CIA, NSA, and cut our military budget in half? We spend more on defense than like double the rest of the world combined. That's your "big government". That's wasteful government spending.

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