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superpatriotman

(6,249 posts)
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:37 AM Dec 2014

Though I agree with Obama's Cuba position, it is all about big business

Cuba is money. Cuba is oil. Cuba is gold. Cuba is profits. Cuba is untapped potential for the Chamber of Commerce, the Koch Brothers, Sheldon Adelson and the American Enterprise Institute.

The ending of the silly embargo is a win-win for everyone. But make no mistake, it is profit-driven.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Though I agree with Obama's Cuba position, it is all about big business (Original Post) superpatriotman Dec 2014 OP
That's OK. nt ladjf Dec 2014 #1
indeed Doctor_J Dec 2014 #2
Trade is the foundation o foreign relations Adrahil Dec 2014 #3
The problem with trade is that the people have no say in the negotiations. Trade works out good liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #4
I don't really disagree... but at the bottom, it's almost always about money. Adrahil Dec 2014 #8
Trade seems to be good for workers and the safety net in Europe and in other progressive countries. pampango Dec 2014 #13
I agree but what have we been doing that it no longer works for the people? I am thinking about jwirr Dec 2014 #12
Yup. bigwillq Dec 2014 #5
YES grasswire Dec 2014 #6
so you don't think Cubans want the opportunity to have access to modern technology? onenote Dec 2014 #32
where did I say this? nt grasswire Dec 2014 #36
You seemed upset that 11 million Cubans were getting access to technology. onenote Dec 2014 #38
This is the USA - nothing matters but profits. polichick Dec 2014 #7
Not everyone here seems to agree that ending the embargo is a good idea. pampango Dec 2014 #9
Lotsa ponies in Cuba. OilemFirchen Dec 2014 #11
Bingo! nt RiverLover Dec 2014 #10
It will take a long time for that to happen flamingdem Dec 2014 #14
Each spot where you typed Cubans, you need to have the word government after it. NCTraveler Dec 2014 #18
Have you ever been there? flamingdem Dec 2014 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author NCTraveler Dec 2014 #24
what exactly do you disagree with? flamingdem Dec 2014 #26
My disagreement was simple and singular. NCTraveler Dec 2014 #29
There might also have been concern that China would have become Marr Dec 2014 #15
No, it's not. It is about abandoning a policy that hasn't worked for 50 years. Obama can't lift okaawhatever Dec 2014 #16
The right will bow down to their corporate masters once the command is given. GOLGO 13 Dec 2014 #17
Yet another reason why WillPitt's "Castro won" OP/argument doesn't make sense stevenleser Dec 2014 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #20
Profits are bad? JaneyVee Dec 2014 #22
It would be ludicrous to normalize relations with Cuba if we didn't get anything out of it. Ykcutnek Dec 2014 #23
We? KansDem Dec 2014 #28
Normalizing relations with Cuba was a good thing. Ykcutnek Dec 2014 #31
Dear President Obama, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. William769 Dec 2014 #25
+100 ... n/t obnoxiousdrunk Dec 2014 #27
That's what started the whole thing to begin with nichomachus Dec 2014 #30
Yup. That sums it up. nt City Lights Dec 2014 #33
Hopefully moondust Dec 2014 #34
Think Haiti Slim Pickens Dec 2014 #35
That's up to the Cuban people. joshcryer Dec 2014 #37
 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
2. indeed
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:49 AM
Dec 2014

In this case the president's corporatism has an upside. But if the Koch brothers and Waltons weren't going to get richer from it, it wouldn't have happened.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
4. The problem with trade is that the people have no say in the negotiations. Trade works out good
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:55 AM
Dec 2014

for politicians and for Corporations but not so good for workers and for those who need the social safety net that is eroded in favor of corporate profit.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
13. Trade seems to be good for workers and the safety net in Europe and in other progressive countries.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 11:45 AM
Dec 2014

They have much more trade than we do in the US, yet have stronger middle classes and unions and better social safety nets.

Our 1% has been able to harm our middle class, weaken our unions and shred our safety net although trade is a much, much smaller part of our economy than it is in Europe or other progressive countries.

The lesson to me is that the 1% can decimate society regardless of the amount of trade it engages in. (republicans did a good job of that for 12 years before FDR when there were high tariffs and little trade.)

Progressive countries have comparatively high levels of trade, but promoting trade may be a policy choice not the cause of their shared prosperity. With strong unions and labor laws and effective safety nets people seem assured that the benefits of trade will be equitably shared. In countries with weak unions, ineffective labor laws and porous safety nets the benefits of trade are not likely to be equitably shared. Of course, the benefits of domestic commerce are not likely to be equitably shared either.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
12. I agree but what have we been doing that it no longer works for the people? I am thinking about
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 11:35 AM
Dec 2014

NAFTA and all the other trade agreements. Prior to those agreements we had a lot of international trade and it worked in our (the peoples) favor. Along comes NAFTA and bye-bye jobs and security. What changed? How did we get from the old model of international trade to Poppies new world order?

And maybe more important - how do we get back to that old model?

 

bigwillq

(72,790 posts)
5. Yup.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 12:26 PM
Dec 2014

Walmart and McDonalds will soon populate the island, and the US government will say it's good since it's giving Cubans jobs.
Cuba will turn into the USA, with it's commercialism and greed. The workers will be underpaid and overworked, just like they are in America, while CEOs continue to make billions.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
6. YES
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:07 PM
Dec 2014

Opening a market just offshore of 11 million people to telecom, banking, every kind of big business. Wall Street must be rejoicing.

I knew it when Obama talked about all the opportunities for Cubans. Translation: opportunities for capitalism.

onenote

(42,714 posts)
32. so you don't think Cubans want the opportunity to have access to modern technology?
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:54 PM
Dec 2014

Funny sentiment from someone communicating over the Internet.

onenote

(42,714 posts)
38. You seemed upset that 11 million Cubans were getting access to technology.
Sat Dec 20, 2014, 12:25 AM
Dec 2014

You certainly suggest it was something good.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
9. Not everyone here seems to agree that ending the embargo is a good idea.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 11:28 AM
Dec 2014

Perhaps the republican congress will prevent it from happening.

flamingdem

(39,313 posts)
14. It will take a long time for that to happen
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:57 PM
Dec 2014

Cubans don't like rapid change. They won't have a capitalist at the helm for at least 10 years. Meanwhile their reason for being to to fight off the 1% and greedy US pols. So far they managed it. They like to do things on their own terms and they're pretty smart.

In the end it's hard to fight the powers that be but they're not rolling over any time soon. Raul wore his uniform for his speech on Wednesday. They're still in that mode.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
18. Each spot where you typed Cubans, you need to have the word government after it.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:59 PM
Dec 2014

I'm pretty sure Cubans would be all for cell phones. If I remember correctly about 20% of the adult population has them. Pretty sure Cubans would be all for the internet and free access to information. A very small amount of Cubans currently have access to such. I'm pretty sure Cubans would like better representation, but the Castros would never allow that to happen. You are correct that the Cuban government is pretty smart. Its leaders live really well and it is pretty stable. I do think it is wrong to state "Cubans" like this or that. No way of knowing. The Castros really aren't very open to any form of descent. It is not Cubans as you say, it is the Cuban government. You really can't say what Cubans want. The current generation of Cubans have now lived their whole lives under state controlled media.

flamingdem

(39,313 posts)
21. Have you ever been there?
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:12 PM
Dec 2014

I'm actually speaking from a lot of experience being there and spending time with Cubans. They know what's wrong but a general characteristic, that they told me, is that they don't like rapid change. In saying that I'm going beyond government this and that and commenting on a characteristic that obviously doesn't apply to all. From knowing Cubans I know the majority are sick of the situation but that doesn't mean they welcome a capitalist takeover, many have long memories and their sense of cultural pride and identity is very strong, it ain't Puerto Rico.

Response to flamingdem (Reply #21)

flamingdem

(39,313 posts)
26. what exactly do you disagree with?
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:33 PM
Dec 2014

do you think they want the return of American corporate and even political domination?

i've been going since the 90s so I realize there's no overnight, but i know everyone thought it would change rapidly then as well. I stick by my disagreement that the Kochs etc will get in there anytime soon

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
29. My disagreement was simple and singular.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:41 PM
Dec 2014

Where you typed Cubans it should have said Cuban government.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
15. There might also have been concern that China would have become
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:02 PM
Dec 2014

it's big new trading partner if the US did not.

okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
16. No, it's not. It is about abandoning a policy that hasn't worked for 50 years. Obama can't lift
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:04 PM
Dec 2014

the Embargo and restrictions will remain on doing business there. Now, if those on the right give up their wealthy Cuban donors for their wealthy business donors we can talk, but until then it is just about diplomatic relations.
It doesn't hurt that we're getting closer to one of Russia's biggest allies during a time of strained relations between our two countries.

GOLGO 13

(1,681 posts)
17. The right will bow down to their corporate masters once the command is given.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:45 PM
Dec 2014

Those old, decrepit Cuban aristocrats will never reclaim their fincas. Prepare to launch the McDonald's/Verizon/Apple armies southward, ho!!! America, America we proudly sell to thee!!!

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
19. Yet another reason why WillPitt's "Castro won" OP/argument doesn't make sense
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 02:02 PM
Dec 2014

One of the two least capitalist countries in the world is about to become consumed by the US economic model, for the better IMHO, but Castro certainly has not 'won'.

Response to superpatriotman (Original post)

William769

(55,147 posts)
25. Dear President Obama, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:28 PM
Dec 2014

From me, thank you for what you have done.

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
30. That's what started the whole thing to begin with
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:52 PM
Dec 2014

Cuba was a corporatists' paradise. The Mafia was firmly entrenched. The big corporations had their finger in the pie. There was a .01 percent, and everyone else was treated like slaves. All of the Cuban politicians were corrupt and were in bed with the Mafia and/or the corporations.

Then, along came Castro. The 0.01 percent had to flee. They ended up in Miami and central America and immediately launched an anti-Castro campaign. In the '60s, there were something like 35 anti-Castro groups in Florida and Central America. Some were run by the CIA, some by the Mafia, some by both, and a few were lone actors with their own agenda.

The Cubans in Florida had the US government by the balls, because the politicians needed South Florida to win the state, and that was pivotal in national elections.

The corporations -- and no doubt the Mafia -- would just love to get their hands on Cuba again.

moondust

(19,993 posts)
34. Hopefully
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 06:23 PM
Dec 2014

it will be a big win for average Cubans and not just a swarm of corporate locusts enriching themselves.

Slim Pickens

(3 posts)
35. Think Haiti
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 07:22 PM
Dec 2014

If we take a look at that part of the world it's not hard to imagine what Cuba might look like in 20 years or so if the US corporations get their way.

I agree with you that is all about cracking another nut for US corporations and is connected to other geopolitical motives. To portray this as some sort of magical and benevolent change of heart by the State Department would be laughable. There is absolutely zero evidence that would substantiate such a claim and mountains of evidence that leads to less charitable motives.

Here's my take on it:

Now let's look at just 5 of the "benefits" of this so-called "normalization" process:

What the US will give Cuba:

1) "Diplomatic opening: The U.S. will take steps toward restoring diplomatic ties with Cuba, severed since 1961."

What does this mean? What was Cuba like directly preceding the Revolution in 1959 and what role did the US play in this? In 1934 US puppet-dictator Fulgencio Batista took over the Cuban government in what became known as "The Revolt of the Sergeants." For the next twenty-five years he ruled Cuba with an iron fist with the full blessing and endorsement of the United States government, who feared a social and economic revolution and saw him as a stabilizing force with respect for American business interests.

If we are to take this first piece of normalization at face value then we can conclude that the US will actively work to install an oppressive government in Cuba friendly to US business interests to the detriment of the Cuban people as it has done elsewhere in the region. No crystal ball needed here.

2) "Embassy in Havana: This will include the goal of reopening a US embassy in Havana in the coming months. The embassy has been closed for over half a century."

What are the benefits of having a US embassy in your country? What does this mean for the Cuban people? All we need to do is look at past history and examine the following coups which emanated from various US embassies to make an educated guess as to what the purpose of an embassy in Havana will be for the US. Consider the following:

Iran (1953); Guatemala(1954); Thailand (1957); Laos (1958-60); the Congo (1960); Turkey (1960, 1971 & 1980); Ecuador (1961 & 1963); South Vietnam (1963); Brazil (1964); the Dominican Republic (1963); Argentina (1963); Honduras (1963 & 2009); Iraq (1963 & 2003); Bolivia (1964, 1971 & 1980); Indonesia (1965); Ghana (1966); Greece (1967); Panama (1968 & 1989); Cambodia (1970); Chile (1973); Bangladesh (1975); Pakistan (1977); Grenada (1983); Mauritania (1984); Guinea (1984); Burkina Faso (1987); Paraguay (1989); Haiti (1991 & 2004); Russia (1993); Uganda (1996);and Libya (2011).

3) "Release alleged Cuban spies: The US will release three Cubans who were convicted of espionage and imprisoned in the US: Gerardo Hernandez, Luis Medina, and Antonio Guerrero. All three prisoners were members of the "Wasp Network," a group that spied on prominent members of the Cuban-American community. CNN reports that Hernandez, the group's leader, was also linked to the downing of two two civilian planes operated by Brothers to the Rescue, a U.S.-based dissident group."

This should be celebrated but don't be fooled- this is only window-dressing.
And let's not forget that these Cuban intelligence officers were sent to Miami to monitor the terrorist groups that had carried out bombing attacks on the island.

4) "Easing business and travel restrictions: The U.S. will make it easier for Americans to obtain licenses to do business in Cuba, and to travel to the island. CNN reports that the new rules still won't permit American tourism, but will make it easier to visit for other purposes."

This is perhaps the most dangerous of the so-called benefits. As this moves forward- if it does- you will gradually see more US business interests invade Cuba with the ultimate goal to be a complete takeover of the economy ala Haiti.

US companies will be allowed to export telecommunications equipment and “establish the necessary mechanisms, including infrastructure” in Cuba to provide telephone and Internet services. US companies will also be allowed to export building materials, agricultural equipment, machinery and other goods “to empower the nascent Cuban private sector” and foster “greater economic independence" from the state. That means privatization.

If such cases which are documented throughout the hemisphere are indicators this means economic terrorism the likes of what we have read from John Perkin's, "Economic Hit Men." It's the same formula all over the world. Prepare to see the IMF/World Bank and Cuba's obligation to "harmonize" it's economy with Wall St. if this moves forward as predicted by the likes of the liberal pundits.

5) "Review of basis for sanctions: Secretary of State John Kerry has been ordered to review Cuba's status as a "state sponsor of terrorism." If his review determines that Cuba no longer deserves that status, that will be a first step towards lifting at least some US sanctions."

How will this work? What does this mean? As always the statement from the State Department is an inversion of reality. And as we know any and all reviews will be vetted by the Business Round Table and if Cuba does align with US business interests they will be deemed a favored nation, if not they will be tagged as terrorists no matter how generous they may be in the world.

Simply because the most depraved elements of the US body politic like Rubio react as only they know how does not mean this rapprochement will benefit the Cuban people. No doubt from the US point of view this is all about benefiting US corporations.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
37. That's up to the Cuban people.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 09:47 PM
Dec 2014

They can let it happen or resist. So far it appears the former is happening.

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