When I read both cop cameras were not on.

I will be interested in finding out more details.

You're seeing the light from the officer's flashlight.



There's Martin drawing and pointing his gun. In fact, you can see the beam of the flashlight moving from Martin's feet back toward the officer as he begins to backup. That's the same beam your conspiracy theory claims is a cell phone.



There's his gun.

Did you also watch the CBS video and not that foggy one that you keep posting to say it 'clearly' shows what happens. It's as clear as mud to me.

I could see people touting such theories if there wasn't video of him drawing and pointing, and if Martin didn't already have an arrest record for armed robbery and armed criminal action. Hell, you can even see that the safety is still engaged in the high resolution photograph -- which explains all the conspiracy theorists who try to say that if he had drawn, he would have shot.

Do you honestly think that because folks like Eric Garner were murdered, that all of the violent criminals ceased to exist? By trying to lump someone who clearly was violent and dangerous, and whose death was obviously necessary and appropriate, with those who are victims of legitimate police brutality, we're doing a disservice to the movement.

How do you think it looks to those who approach these situations logically and rationally when we treat the justified death of a violent, armed criminal the same as we do the death of an innocent, unarmed man? You folks advocating for Antonio Martin are going to make Eric Garner's death turn out to be in vain. And that breaks my damn heart.

Everyone should have disdain for illogical, irrational conspiracy theorists spreading nonsense.

Liberals keep an open mind and argue their case and don't try to use ridicule to push their views. It's the conservative mind-set that believes that they and only they know the truth. DU is supposed to be a message board for the "politically liberal"..

a cop murdering an AA man, that's just not true.

and no the PD's word for it.

and no, I don't mean a member's word for it.

but not in this case.

Crystal ball tell you that?

But actually you don't know any more that those that claim it was planted. Please try to argue with an open mind. This is a "politically liberal" message board not a Conservative message board.

And just because I believe that the gun wasn't planted, you think I view this as a conservative message board?
Did you chastise those that agree with me also?

that think that they and only they know the truth should try to shut off discussion. You have an opinion and that's fine. But you don't know the truth.

But, IMO, I'm not trying to shut off discussion, I'm forcefully making my point.

the gun wasn't planted implies that you know that for a fact. If you do, prove proof. Otherwise it's just your opinion. You don't THINK the gun was planted. Why?

nothing was clear to me. Whether he had a gun or cellphone, it's still difficult to see, and I do wish that people would stop using the term 'clearly' when nothing is clear. This is where the video cameras on the officer or his vehicle would have done the trick.

You can see he's holding and pointing the object in his right hand exactly as you would hold and point a gun at someone, and if you look closely, as he brings his right arm up, you can see the barrel of the gun.
That is clearly a gun he's pointing at the officer.

Still wish he had turned on the video camera that he was wearing on his clothing and switched on the camera on his patrol car. All of this garbage would have been less argumentative.

a keyboard and a lazy boy?

I won't need to read any more of your uninformed opinion.

The video of him drawing and pointing a gun at the officer, of course, being the most important piece of evidence that he possessed the gun. I wonder what the point of police body cameras is if people are just going to ignore video evidence in favor of wild and outlandish conspiracy theories?

by any stretch of the imagination.

that the man tried to shoot the policeman who killed him.

is determined by who is looking at it, and how it relates to other evidence.

It shows the person in the foreground also raising his right hand to point at something. Why would two people be pointing at something at the same time? That suggests that something else was going on at that time.

Oh, and have the police run ballistics on the handgun to see if it may have been used in other crime? The serial number was scratched off so it is the type of gun that is used in crime.

.... but that looks more like someone raising a cell phone to take a picture.

I'm trying to picture some one shooting with their arm in that position.. It's too bent. I would think the arm would be more straight.

Every phone I've had requires it to be unlocked. Once unlocked you have to click on the program, wait for it to load then hit another button to start recording or take a pic. The cell phone theory is a huge stretch.

I'm sure there's a novelty item of one, but I'm very sure that Mr. Martin didn't have one.

Even with a locked phone it take half a second to start recording. The only thing you have to do is swipe your finger up the locked screen.

Directly from the lock screen. I have it on my phone, and it loads within a second or two.

The camera icon is on the homepage and the camera is accessible with or not the phone is unlocked.

If they would just slap body cameras on every single one of them and fire tem on the spot if they are turned off - then we wouldn't have these discussions.

But the "Personal Priivacy" crowd will never understand that these people are OUR employees and we own their asses while they are on the job. I want to know what fuck they are doing at all times.

The good ones will not have one tiny issue with being micromanaged at that level.

Should wear body cameras - teachers, trash collectors, military, Congressmen, etc. If I were a member of the police union I'd oppose body cameras.

Dang, I'd hate to live where you do.

Here in America, it's the police who are shooting and killing members of the public, not teachers and trash collectors.

teachers, trash collectors, military, Congressmen,


well a few teachers have actually been in armed confrontations. And if our military isn't in an armed confrontation then what are they being paid for?

So your argument fell apart.

Though I wouldn't be opposed to cameras on teachers.

Certainly not soldiers in combat. Or on base. That opens us up to our enemies.

And those Police Unions need to go away.

Welcome to Corporate America boys and girls where it's everyone for themselves. Maybe having to throw elbows and throw co workers under the bus to get ahead . . . Would bring out the best. Let the cream rise to the top.

Much like teachers - I feel the police are grossly under paid. Open it up - make it everyone for themselves and put in place the strict codes of conduct those of us in Corporate America are expected to adhere to and we will create police forces full of fierce competitors.

That having each others back while putting your own revenue stream in peril is absolute bullshit. When they have to fight for the three to five percent and a chunk of the annual bonus each year they will be out to do their job the best - because it leads to big bonuses.

Example - I think NY,Nj, CT, MA, CA should immediately raise salaries across the board. Many of these folks struggle. Your a cop in Central NJ - you can't live in most communities.

In our borough yes - but my property taxes were just under 9K a year - and the lions share is education, police, fire service. Our people pay well, do their jobs, and we are looking at body cameras.

direspect we catch every day from students, but I'm not sure what we have done as a group that makes you believe we need that much surveillance in the classroom. We already have cameras in the halls, the cafeterias, the gyms, the auditoriums, the multi-purpose rooms and the parking lots--more video surveillance than the cops do-- and we can't turn it off. And believe me, if a teacher steps the slightest bit close to the line, some of those 25 to 40 students in the cladsroom are going to run to the nearest admin and tell.

Janie and Johnny aren't the perfect little Angels mommy and daddy think they are.

I think you need more pay and protection from some seriously messed up and entitled kds.

lower teacher-student ratios and better student (and teacher) experiences. And maybe fewer administrators

And it is appalling - people who have such sharp distaste for the Teacher's union - organized when women began to enter the profession -

Yet applaud the Police Unions - organized to protect them from what? Unfair pay and firing practices? What is happening to teachers in the here and now - TODAY!

And on top of their poor pay they have to deal with miserable working conditions?

They don't have guns and billy clubs to protect themselves. If I can put a camera in the classroom maybe those kids will hush up, sit up straight, and stop wasting time and money.

we've already had cameras in schools for years (not to mention listening on the intercom for 50+ years and piles of observers). There were cameras in a school where I taught in 1976. We've had observation rooms and windows in some schools as far back as the beginning of the 20th century (before the cameras). Believe me, schools are a fishbowl.

Parents and the public would be amazed to watch their little darlings, but there are often policies or statues about using pictures or videos of children without specific permission.

From 1978 to 1991 in Western NY. No intercom system either. My public school put a phone system in the mid 1980s when my dad was on the school board.

The my parochial prep high school - we had jug, detention, and Mr Maguire - a former Marine Officer and Dean of Men.

The Dean of Women would send us to him when she literally threw up her hands in surrender!

But - he took my side against a racist teacher my sophomore year and I remain grateful to this day.

20-30 years ago it was just security cameras that took time lapse at the entrance doors and things. I taught in SC and GA in the 70's and 80's and we had various cameras and observation ports. It may be that old buildings didn't have wiring or intercoms, but every school I was ever in had the ability to listen on the intercom.

I guess it likely depended on the state regulations about school buildings. In GA in the 80's, there were required observations of teachers.

My wife's current school is a new facility. There are cameras at all outside doors, parking lots, drive ways, and halls. There are also fences, secure doors, and limited entrance points.

There are not cameras in every room because of kids privacy, but there are exceptions for some situations. Every room is wired and I know that the district can tune in the cameras on laptops, iPads, and other computers. They can also track every keystroke and email. We had a case here a couple years ago where district personnel were watching what the kids were doing with school iPads that they took home. It was quite a controversy.

Right now. They invest all that money in security - yet beat them up over hard earned pensions and tenure. Utter bullshit!

We had a case in NJ a few weeks ago about teachers learning a new computer system in a classroom setting and being inappropriate during training.

I wonder how many kids get away with inappropriate behavior towards teachers on that season?

Rick Scott is the worst governor ever!

but many classrooms in my school district have cameras now.

I have no doubt that you would oppose body cameras for cops.

You? Do you speak for the Admins?

Wonder if he gets a cut of the profits.

you'd be glad to wear a body camera because it would provide proof of your innocence.

Only public employees whose jobs involve potentially shooting people should need to wear them. But if you have that much power, you also have a huge amount of responsibility, and the body cameras are a way of keeping track of that responsibility.

One cam should be attached to their gun, you turn it off and the gun will jam, end of discussion. That should save a lot of lives.

When the safety goes off the camera goes on automatically. Once the safety goes back on the camera stops recording. And there would be a requirement that the camera battery is in place and charged.

What a stupid idea.

You know the ones I mean. The unarmed black men that are being shot awwww sucks lets say 10-14 times. Sad if we stopped that, huh!

suppose a cop had to draw his weapon and the camera malfunctioned at that moment? Bang, you've got a dead cop.
But somehow, I don't think you would care or you just didn't think this through.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I had great respect for the police during the Marathon bombing. I am from MA.

Since that time I have lost respect. We have a war on people of color now and yes it has escalated since a black man is in the white house. There is an escalation of racial hatred. You don't see that, then that is because you don't want to. Explain the Bundy ranch to me. Then tell me the story and the outcome if they had all been black.

I want details please. White privilege at the Bundy ranch pure and simple as the driven snow as was there skin color.

#BLACKLIVESMATTER

but not all cop shootings are bad shoots, like this one, Martin pulled a gun, Martin pointed at the officer, Martin payed the ultimate price for his actions.

As far as the Bundy Ranch incident? Every one of those that threatened the cops by pointing weapons should be arrested, charged, tried and if convicted, max penalty imposed.

when Martin had the gun or the evidence of the gun present. Two hours later, we know of a gun, but we should have known there was a gun.

My guess it was a drop gun plant to cover the asses of the Berkeley cop.

Still not a righteous shoot.

And the fact that neither the body cam or the dash cam was on greatly disturbs me. Obviously they wanted to hide something.

at the officer, which makes it a justified homicide.

totally effed up video so muddy, so unclear, such a fricking bizarre gif that you think proves your point? OMFG!

Yup, you and Blue are so true in your analysis GG.

NO! THAT VIDEO IS A JOKE AND SHOWS NOTHING!

but if you watch Martin, you see him reach with his right hand into his waistband as he drops his bag, his right arm comes up with an object that he's holding exactly as you would hold a gun, not a cellphone, but a gun, and, to top it off, as his right arm reaches it's final height, you can see the barrel of the gun if you look closely enough.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this one is a justified homicide, point a gun at a cop and bad things tend to happen.

… I can only imagine they see the world somewhat "their way"…

… to know that what you observe has to be objective. I'm less convinced this is open and shut. You come out with some real interesting statements, such as thinking that somehow first responders take 20 minutes to know the actor is not a threat, nor is anyone else at the scene. That is so suspect, and here you are thinking that I wear blinders when addressing this subject?

You know, most people here who've posted over the years haven't forgotten that evidence comes before crimes are determined.

However, when I read what you are beating over the concrete here, I'm amazed. It always goes back to concluding that I'm not nearly as afraid of admitting ignorance (because we all ARE at this point) as I am amazed at those with perceived wisdom.

It makes you look anything but wise.

All I see are exscuses for police murdering black men.

number 2, I've come out condemning the Brown, Rice, Garner murders, so again, your statement about me is a lie.

So the focus of the video goes where the officer is looking. Even then, in some instances the video will be useless, but it will be harder for bad apples to position themselves so that they keep important evidence out of line of the cameras.

...like Google Glass. Livestream all footage to a recorded and publically accessible site where the public can view. Allow the cops a mute button but provide a full audit log.

That officer should have had his cam on.

At the moment, the recordings are public records in many states. Just like 911 calls.

If the cameras were always on, then they would record things that should probably not be public. Such as the cop going to the bathroom. Or statements by victims, or minors. Whether or not they press charges.

My preferred solution is to modify the public record laws so that those things aren't public records. But under existing law, we probably should have the camera turned off sometimes.

No one needs to see that!

There's another video that clearly shows Martin drawing and pointing a gun at the officer, there was a gun recovered at the scene.

This video doesn't show shit except the officer's flashlight beam, which he drops as he's scrambling away from Martin, who's pointing a gun at him.

No, there is nothing clear about that 'GIF'.

I can clearly see that he drops the bag he's carrying in his right hand as he reaches into his waistband, as his arm comes up with the object, he's holding and pointing it exactly as you would a gun, if you look closely, you can also see the barrel of the gun as it reaches it height, and, for good measure, the action of the officer confirms that he was having a gun pointed at him.

You should apply to CBS and show them how to clearly view that messy 'GIF' you analyzed.

You so badly want it to be a bad shoot that it wouldn't matter what was shown to you.

to analyze this video? Never mind, I already know the answer, you don't.

You have no idea what I have.
Regardless, this was a justified homicide.

Other photos have shown me that there was no gun for nearly two hours, and then suddenly planted.

It's murder in the second degree, and not justified.