those African American posters on this site you disagree with. The argument that people claim to speak for their entire race (gender, whatever) is the typical tactic to delegimate speech. These discussions about cultural authenticity and appropriation have been going on for decades. For some reason, You haven't been exposed to them and incorrectly imagine they are a creation of the "internet." Once again we see how some are angry that anyone engage in speech that challenges their way of seeing the world. The world isn't going to come to a halt because you refuse to acquaint yourself with common cultural questions. People are going to talk about what they please, and you are just going to have to deal with it.

birthright. No you are not qualified to tell other people how they are allowed to sing. No one is.

For instance, a random Japanese person should not be allowed to tell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jero

That he can't sing anymore.

That apparently is a type of society these individuals want us to move toward.

I hope you don't ever hope to get into show-tunes, cause as a gay man I can totally ban you from that.

Apparently.

and trying to understand what they are saying because clearly you have avoided doing so. I, however, won't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

I told no one what music they can do. Moreover, all of DU and the world at large can rest easy knowing that I will not sing any type of music in public.

This OP was not directed at you.

I've seen enough articles on this topic that boil down to "my race owns this type of expression, I speak for my race when I say that I don't like it when other races engage in this expression".

I find that thinking both shameful and arrogant.

twice in your response to me.

based on their race.

If you don't classify yourself in that group, then my response isn't directed towards you.

I don't understand what part of 'these individuals" made it unclear who I was referring to. Group yourself, I need not do it.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it will bring in some things you need to read and hear. You've given yourself an opportunity for greater education and cultural awareness.

I don't tolerate racism. If that is the kind of education that someone thinks I need, I respectfully decline.

Cultural appropriation means a dominant culture taking away minority culture. It is, in fact, a form of white privilege.

Racism.

This has been discussed in depth so many times on DU, I don't even know why you pretend.

You are part of the problem.

If that is your diagnosis, I want nothing to do with your prescription.

I got ripped and beaten on as a youth. I've had a hard-ass life on that front. If anyone tried to hold me to a lower standard because of that, I'd be disgusted and offended.

So I treat other people the way I'd like to be treated, for that reason I do oppose affirmative action.

Bless your heart

As a white gay male, you have considerable privilege over a black gay male.

You really need to look into contemporary definitions of racism. Many whites don't want to consider these definitions because they have to look at their own participation in systems that are advantageous to them. They don't want to consider the racial history of this country, but only to look at it from a position of pure logic, as if the world were solely logical. All can be equally racist, yet the truth is that racism only has an impact when supported by power, and minorities, particularly blacks, have little power.

He ignores that racism has affected families for generations upon generations, from slavery to KKK style terrorism to Jim Crow to housing discrmination and workplace discrmination.

and he speaks Japanese fluently.

Where is the "appropriation" exactly?

and btw, it was his -grandmother- who was native Japanese. and he wasn't a 'native' Japanese speaker; he learned from studying it and probably from his grandma.

Jero first began pursuing his dream to become an Enka artist because of the influence of his Japanese grandmother Takiko, who had met his grandfather, an African-American serviceman, at a dance during World War II.[5] They married, had a daughter, Harumi - now a department store sales clerk - and eventually moved to his grandfather's hometown, Pittsburgh. His parents divorced when he was young, and he was reared amid a strong sense of Japanese culture.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jero

he never set foot in japan until he was college age.

I can't get over the hubris of folks who aren't of a race dictating to people who are of a race - what they are and are not allowed to be offended by.

I'll remember this thread the next time DU gets all up in arms over a Native American symbol being used to make a dollar by non natives, a sports team, a cigarette manufacturer, etc etc.

It will be a good reference point to compare and contrast what gets under folks' skin. Pardon the pun!

Native American head dress wearing mascot - wrong.
Mammy as a white woman - good.

Does everyone realize the Mammy stereotype morphed into the Welfare Queen stereotype around the mid 1970's?

So a certain singer is making a buck off of being a Mammy Welfare Queen! Maybe now white folks will look at poor uneducated people living in the ghetto with empathy?

Who knows? Good thread to start the discussion. I want to explore that. And the dumbing down of white America - the move to haves vs have nots and how possibly this woman represents that sharp move to haves vs have nots in this country.

She and Nikki Minaj are total caricatures who many black women of a certain class, income, and educational background can't relate to. Perhaps even at that level Iggy is pushing us towards solidarity with the haves? I mean - Stacy Dash at Fox News . . . She looks, acts, walks and speaks like me. I can relate to her. I don't agree with her politics but I wouldn't be embarrassed to sit in Teaberrys tea room and have lunch with her. Yet she's taken heat at DU for being some kind of traitor - to poor and middle class white people. Makes no sense to me.

Anyways - great topic!

Sister Citizen


They weren't happy jolly substitute mommies.

Mammies actually looked more Irish than black as they were often the products of rapes, family members hidden in plain sight.

Were a lot of Irish women the products of rapes?

Is their sexuality, marital status, and number of children picked at and held up as tearing at the fabric of society?

White folks in America created their Mammy myth - don't play like its us black women who created that stereotype. We are just victims of an accepted way to be a bigot - with that stereotype.

Funny you aren't familiar with that stereotype. She appeared all over a little book and movie called The Help.

Just because you don't believe it - doesn't mean you get to dictate to me what my life experience has taught me.

Affluent black women - we agonize over our weight. Because we know it can put us in that slot.

I am 64 and The Help is much more recent then my upbringing.

I know this is a loosing battle but I hate when words that have multiple uses get narrowed down to on that is offensive. I think the answer is to own the words like our Gay brothers and sisters who claim the word queer. It completely lost its power when they took it to themselves. "Hey you queer!" "Yeah I am queer, what of it?" The words offend us only because we give them the power.

It's an American tradition to take an insult and turn it around.

Sapphire - head snapping angry.
Jezebel - white men believing "Lay with tan become a man".

You might hate it - but it's REALITY. The Tragic Mullato. Another one. How can any American want to play "race discussions" in regards to black people and not even try to familiarize themselves with her work - and their forefathers' stupidity?


Read Melissa's book - learn something other than what you know or think you know.


It is reality.

I will never accept white folks of a certain ilk thinking the "good ones" are fat jolly singing black women.


It's not the word. It's the Stereotype.

Again down there in your sweet South in 1976 they turned Mammy's caricature into the Welfare Queen. And I see what white folks of a certain kind are doing to Latina/Hispanic women - trying to turn them into Jezebel/Welfare queens. That's not gonna happen either.

I don't care if it makes white people anywhere uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable in my own country - so welcome to discomfort.

My cousins and I all called our grandmother "Mam" or "Mama" as did our parents. It is Gaelic for "mother" or "mom." "Dada" or "Da" for Dad. But my grandfather died before I was born so I didn't get to call him anything.

Though I don't know this to be a fact, I believe that the use of the word "mammy" came about because so many Irish settled in the south. The landscape in much of the Southern States is similar to the landscape of Ireland. Hence they settled there, somewhere that felt a bit like home. Many Southerners call their grandmothers, "Meemaw" another variation on the word.

But the word and its origins are not the same as the stereotype.

I hope I said that well enough.

On a side note, I know my grandmother disliked being called "Mama" by her grandkids. I just didn't realize it until she was gone from us. She signed all Christmas and birthday cards with "Love, your grandmother 'Mam'"

But I'm going to admit - I dated a Hedge Fund broker a few years back. Yeah - evil banker!

He was from Ireland - head of a premier trading desk there with a boutique office in Manhattan. I had the pleasure of spending a great deal of time in Ireland since that kind of money makes it extremely easy to spend a long weekend across the Atlantic.

He's one of ten - came from a poor working class family.

But they all called their parents - ill try to spell it "out" -

Mah-a-ter and Fa-tae-ER

My Irish man was my first exposure to European hatred of Gypsies/Travelers and Eastern Europeans.
My French man - Muslims and North Africans

So I married the guy from Italy that worships at the altar of Hannibal, with an Eritrean ancestor, Greek heritage, and who just loves everyone!

But glad you married the one that loves everyone.

My grandparents were both from Ireland. My grandmother the 6th of 11 and my grandfather the 3rd of 13. Your friend's family was just a bit more formal, though not at all uncommon. "Ma, Mam, Mama" and "Da, Dada and Dad" are more informal and more common. My grandmother referred to her mother as both "Mah-a-ter" and "Mam"

Even if they didn't have much. And that could very well be it.

A funny thing - his mother trying to learn "continental" fork and knife holding from me. that's hard for a working class woman in her late 60's in Ireland.

What the parents thought of what he did, if they really knew and understood. Hedge funds weren't the easiest to "get."

Good, bad, indifferent - the Tiger Economy lifted the children of people who had subsisted and rented for centuries into home ownership and to some degree - smashed the centuries old class lines.

His father - had he been born in America where a white male in the 30's and 40's had an equal opportunity at education would have gone all the way. He saw the opportunities for his kids and took it. And he read everything he could on finance, industry and business. They pushed those kids into finance and chemistry.

My grandparents pushed their kids hard and they worked extremely hard themselves. They always made sure their kids understood the advantages they had just being born in America.

My oldest uncle, 23 years my mother's senior who helped put my mom through college, was a self made multi millionaire. He literally wrote the book on Public Relations, his text books being used in ivy league schools. He raised over $750 million for St. Jude Hospital. All the kids that made it to adulthood, were successful in their fields. My grandmother, to me and our family, was a saint. A 6th grade education, she raised 10 children and a few of her grandchildren. Always in step with the times and always politically aware.

One of my favorite memories of my grandmother, who was born in 1890 and lived until 1987, is her sitting on my brother's bed listening to Led Zeppelin 4 with us, tapping her foot to the music and smiling.

Boy have we gone off topic!

How sweet is that story about his mom!

are applied to decide if they want to 'reclaim' offensive words. So gay people can decide that they want to 'reclaim' 'queer', but white people can not decide that black people should 'reclaim' 'Mammy'. That's entirely up to black people, and if they have no desire to do so, that's their choice to make. We melanin-deprived folks don't get to tell them they should 'reclaim' it.

These words only have power to harm us if we give them power. I realize I cannot tell African Americans to reclaim these hurtful words but in my opinion they would save themselves a lot of pain if they did. An the reclamation has to be benign not as I have heard some African Americans use the n word among themselves as an inside insult.

Not much I can do about it. What I can do is to refrain from using words that can be seen as insults.

This past week a presenter in a class I attended in speaking when with people of other cultures to "take your shoes off, because you are treading on holy ground." If I have offended anyone here I am sincerely sorry.

And yes ... That is offensive.

... never mind.

English control of Ireland was cemented by the mid 1600's until 1922 during which the Irish were forced to work as virtual slave labor, as serfs to their absentee English landowners. And yes absolutely the women (and men) were raped. Many historians believe the potato famine was an attempt at Irish genocide.

Much like the Native Americans, the Irish language and culture was nearly exterminated and in many areas of Ireland, entire groups of Irish were completely exterminated by the English.

So the Irish mammy precedes the AA mammy.

This is a grossly simplified bit of history but I reference it to give some perspective and to say that as a bi-racial Irishwoman, I hate to see either side playing "who has/had it worse".

You don't have to like it - but white women in the Republic of Ireland have it easy -

Compared to black women in America today.

Who HAS it worse.

Why is what happened in Ireland centuries ago any of my business? What does that have have to do with black women in America today?

Have you even read Melissa's book? You don't care about us. You just care about the same shit that happened in all Monarchy based European countries two hundred years ago.

Sorry - that's all I got out of your comment. You don't care - so just go away. You are NOT helping us.

In Central NJ.

But I don't fly an Irish flag. My Irish Ancestors came here in 1842 (Father's family) and 1708 (first recording of my mothers).

Maybe you pass?

I don't.

So I know how I'm treated and perceived and turn that weapon on them.

Literally. By my mum.

And I'm in my 50's...

I'm not trying to diminish AA life in these United States today. Truly. I understand your anger and outrage, my dad passed and did so 110% because of the racism in this country. It boggles my mind that he did that - purposefully denied himself his family and his heritage. I can't do that and have never hidden who I am.

I guess my mum instilled such a horror in me of her history, it feels very real and present. The Irish in Northern Ireland are still treated like second class citizens. More than 90% of NI Irish children attend segregated schools for example... The bigotry and discrimination against the Irish is still happening there and I can't forget it.

Great response btw

I think I might have hit a nerve.

Typical DU - see a word and make it about the dominant culture.

Happy Holidays, rbrnmw !!

(I'm a white guy who loves jazz and R&B, but who cannot sing or play -- no talent!)

The thing is, the great creative leaders in jazz have always been African-American, and still are; but white (and European) musicians, following that leadership, have created some wonderful music. Anyway I love it.

It seems to me that that makes a difference -- that joining the community with creativity honors the community. That's not to say that nobody profiteers on jazz, "capitalizing" on the work of black people. That happens, too.

I don't claim the last word, but here is my thought. Could we say that it is not a matter of property, but of demonstrated respect?

Artists who actually care about the traditions and cultures from whom they want to adopt and adapt their art are going to earn the respect of those whose traditions they join, not simply 'take it' to make a quick buck - and then keep those quick bucks solely for themselves, while artists whose works they adopted are left in poverty. They will be embraced by the cultures they showcase, if they both respect it and are respected in return for enriching those cultures.

Those who don't can easily be seen to be merely 'taking' cultural traditions for personal profit.

is an example of assimilation, not appropriation. Maybe you should figure out the difference.

Please offer a definition along with an explanation why the character's "assimilation" is a thing meant to be derided.

explanations have been repeated on numerous threads the last two days. The fact that you have chosen to ignore them is not my problem. Maybe you should go back and re-read the differences between the two. I and most here "get it." The fact that others don't means they have reading comprehension problems, don't give a damn, or just plain being obtuse.

African Americans shouldn't have to give up their culture in order to be accepted by the "establishment." The fact that white Americans clamor for them to assimilate and makes a mockery of their culture is reprehensible.

Cultural appropriation = bad
Cultural assimilation = bad
Using an example of assimilation as an analogy of appropriation = bad
Asking for clarification = bad


Or maybe the internet is full of cranks and people should think twice before chasing after the Outrage du Jour.

than it does about me. Try again. Keep asking for clarification, when it's been explained to you for the past two days. The fact that you don't "believe in it," doesn't make it not exist. BTW, I welcome your insults, it means that I'm on the correct side.

I've noticed you don't actually offer replies so much as you rely on others to explain what/how to think. I'm not really keen on that modality. I prefer people who know what they believe, why they believe and can say as much on their own terms.

(It's an anarchist thing; you wouldn't understand.)

I'm sure much internet ink has been spilled the last couple of days. However, I was with family and missed those threads and you've provided no incentive to seek out the opinions of those with whom you purport to agree. Still, this thread raises a good point. I chose to offer my thoughts based on what I have seen; namely, appropriation/assimilation is seen as bad (which you yourself appear to be arguing as well but take exception to for some unexplained reason).

Considering even more internet ink has been spilled for an even longer period of time noting the truth that far too often too many white people distrust people of I think the issues should be taken together as a whole. It does no good shifting from one complaint to another without stopping to examine what it is we desire from the very beginning. What is it that we claim is valued.

So here we are. Some show a genuine appreciation for other cultures -- as opposed to mocking -- but they have had their hands slapped away and a scolding voice booms, "Not for you! Because you're WHITE!"

That will do nothing except amplify the mistrust and divisiveness.

I want an inclusive society free of racial and ethnic bias. I want people to value each other and their cultures and if that means they start adopting each other's mannerisms and customs I'm OK with that.

I suppose that says yet more about me and I'm OK with that.

assimilation is analogous to appropriation is where you are missing the mark. They are not equal. The fact that you've been away and have missed these enlightening posts is not my problem. Nor is it my problem to educate you on your misconceptions. I don't rely on others for my replies. I just happen to agree with POC who are upset with the appropriation of their culture, without any respect or in some cases blatant racism, behind that appropriation. So sue me. Keep the insults coming, I love it.

(no one is going to appoint someone with a tattoo that reads, "Kill Mom" across his forehead to the role of Chief Financial Officer of a multinational corporation. If someone wishes to be a CFO they will have to assimilate to the expectation of the multinational business world.)

However, nothing in the character of Carlton ever hinted that the character was forced to act as he did out of some societal expectation. On the contrary he was derided for his actions and dress. He was simply "a tool."

Since he wasn't being forced to assimilate (your original complaint about my post) he must then have been appropriating. Moreover, his appropriation is based on a racial stereotype that is meant to mock. Anyone would be at a loss to find a real life archetype and even PONC would find ridiculous. Yet, no hue and cry, only comedy fodder. You'll forgive me if I think that sauce for the goose can be sauce appropriated for the gander.

that one cannot appropriate a dominant culture. I urge you to go back and read to enlighten yourself of the difference.

How many people of any race walk around in plaid golf slacks and sweaters ties around their necks? This is the dominant culture?

bleh

of the facts. You would've had enough time to educate yourself, but you'd rather voice opinions devoid of facts. In my white world, I find it much more inclusionary to listen to those people who actually live this on a daily basis. I am not one to tell them how to think and feel about others appropriating their culture. It's called open mindedness and sensitivity. Something you don't seem to care about based on your posts in this thread.

of the sociological and anthropological studies of the issues. Like I said, you need to educate yourself. The fact that you don't believe it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm done responding to purposeful ignorance. Have a nice day.

Strife becomes peace, slavery becomes freedom and lies become The Truth.

I'll pass. Blissfully, thankfully; I'll pass.

you do but I agree with you. When you boil it all down one side is a victim and one side is the perp. White people in these discussions can't be victims as in "you can't appropriate a dominant race." All these definitions and explanations are so conveniently invented. Then are offered as some scholarly work. We use to call it a head game or mind fucking.

Reminds me of an old Jack Benny joke ....

that forces people to assimilate to have success or even to stay out of jail. It is not a statement againt the person who assimilates.

The character of the father adopted no such identity -- he was the giver of wisdom and even-handed judgment, even being a judge of society's laws -- and yet he prospered well enough to provide his family a life in Bel Air. That being observed it would be hard to support an argument that claims Carlton was forced by societal expectations yet his father, a popularly elected judge of that same community's laws, was somehow immune.

If assimilation was the subtext he would have been a sympathetic character but the character of Carlton was mocked as a dandy.

nice diversion tactic. points given.

see my post #50 in this thread. Happy Holidays, Nuclear Unicorn !!

Carlton assumed a mannerism his father never felt the need to adopt. Yet, it was the father who was the popularly elected judge of the community's standards and the father prospered in this role well enough to provide a life of luxury.

The character of Carlton was under no pressure to assimilate. His affectations were his own.

very well. Definitely NOT your strong suit. Bless you. Dueces!!

And then refuse to explain themselves as they sun for the exits while trumpeting their victory.

offer arguable assertions. So far the best anyone has offered in response to what I have written are complaints that I don't get it, refusals to explain their own assertions and insults.

I have written that the character of Carlton banks is not assimilated. I pointed to the father's success as showing that Carlton's act was not necessary for success. You offered no explanation as to how I might have misread the characters or their underlying circumstances, you just congratulated yourself in your unearned triumphalism.

If this was your first rodeo around here it would be different but, your posting history speaks to a different story altogether.

Things to do in real life, you understand. So done with this thread. I have to go.

Get what? You've provided no statements except to congratulate yourself and to complain about me not getting whatever it is you're not saying.

very badly worded but, then when IT is explained to you several times in this very thread you continue to NOT get IT.

Given your obvious command of the English language you can understand why some on here question your sincerity at your continued stance of NOT getting IT.

assimilation, appropriation and whatnot.

What I'm not getting is how the example I provided can be shown to be an example of assimilation and -- if it is not assimilation -- then how can it be anything except appropriation.

Generally, the argument for "it's not appropriation when Group X does it" is because Group X has traditionally been oppressed. However, that argument doesn't hold when the characters' back-stories are examined. The character of Carlton banks isn't a victim; he's an object of ridicule and some people choose to lose their minds when this obvious fact is pointed out.

I can't even figure out HOW pointing this out offends the narrative of cultural appropriation. It doesn't detract from either side. People just decided it does and they insist on ranting.

I can't tell if they are deliberately being obtuse or truly just don't know what the fuck they're even trying to talk about.

The "Assimilation of Carlton Banks" in a thread on cultural appropriation? Seriously,