Don't make eye contact either.

I had a somewhat bad encounter with one that was screaming at me, I said "sorry", didnt make eye contact and carefully walked away.

like the silver back gorilla, never make eye contact,

that, to them, is an act of aggression.

You don't want to wind up in the cornfield (per "Twilight Zone", remember?).

PS: Oh...and think Good Thoughts

Creepy fucking Kid.

Some of your advice is good, like no sudden movements, not escalating the situation, etc. OTOH, like a wild animal, a cop may see meekness as weakness. Don't be belligerent, and by all means don't fight back if they're trying to cuff you, but if you shuffle by avoiding eye contact, that may draw their attention, too. Head up, don't stare anybody down, but don't look away from them, either. Act like you have a right to be there, because you do.

he said best thing you can do it put your hands on top of the steering wheel (not holding the wheel, but wrists resting *on top* of the steering wheel). next thing is do *not* move your hands without announcing your intended movements first and then move your hands slowly, and only one at a time.

obviously the whole point is to make sure the officer can see that you're not a threat.

so once i was pulled over (officer said i could have stopped before driving through the changing light) and did exactly this. everything when smoothly, got off with just a warning. then he asks me if i have a gun permit. surprised, i said no. he said usually only people who carry do put their hands on top of the wheel.

i found it interesting that my actions, intended to reassure the officer that i'm not a threat, actually made him think i was likely to be armed.

When I was 15 and in a driver's ed course 40 years ago in a public school in a suburb of Baltimore.

And it's exactly what the police here north of Houston say now.

But that's for traffic stops and generally situations in which the officer has no information going into a situation and in which things can go very, very wrong.

In other situations I've found that treating them like people works just fine. They've asked for my help, I've asked for theirs, and as long as I'm fairly polite they're the same. Keep things professional or at the least friendly.

Your last line is a bit interesting, though. Your actions may have led him to think you were armed, but that doesn't mean it made him nervous or apprehensive. Permit holders typically are less of a risk, and having your hands in that position gives the officer a time advantage in case you do something unexpected. I'd also assume that permit holders would be more conscious about how to interact with others that carry, so they'd be more likely to "follow the rules" that not everybody knows or acknowledges. On the other hand, if he asked about a gun permit and you said "yes" he might have asked to see it. Just to check. Most PDs really dislike having guns out and about, even if they're permitted.


Traffic stops and other unknown situations are an interesting problem when thinking about policemen. We forget they're people, and forget how we respond to some kinds of risks.

Certain DUers have pointed out that some economist or statistician termed certain kinds of risks as "fat-tailed risks". School shootings are one such risk, as are plane crashes. They happen very infrequently so the risk of danger from them are actually very, very low, but we, as humans, perceive the risk to be far greater than it actually is because in those rare situations when they do happen the consequences, their "tail", are large or "fat." We perceive school shootings and plane crashes to be far greater risks than they actually are because they're fat tailed.

The risk of a policeman being shot at a routine traffic stop or routine call is a fat-tailed risk.

The risk of a civilian being shot by a policeman at a traffic stop or routine stop is also a fat-tailed risk.

Fat-tailed risks are mostly important not because of the chance of the event happening, but the way they distort our lives. In the case of police/civilian interactions, the fat-tailed risk assessment interacts to increase the risk of a confrontation escalating as each takes the measures each deems necessary and appropriate given the misjudged risk. The officer treats a possible suspect with more suspicion than necessary, and often more violence, feeding the suspicion-based risk assessment the civilian and convincing him he's right; the civilian treats the policeman with more hostility than necessary, not complying with reasonable instructions, which reinforces the cop's piss-poor risk assessment. The tone is probably set in the first couple seconds of personal interaction.

someone already having a bad day before the traffic stop starts.

going in with the wrong levels of various hormones because they're stewing about their boss or family.


anyway, yeah, the fat-tailed risk is why cops carry guns routinely, to cater to the low-probability situation, without taking into account how it affects every other situation, and indeed, might increase the odds of a bad situation arising.

or, as someone said, give a man a hammer,....

I've known and worked with police officers for significant parts of my professional life, as well as known a few personally. I'm a trial attorney in NYC, but my practice now focuses primarily on commercial litigation.

When interacting casually or peacefully on a street of public buildings, there is certainly nothing to fear. However, if you treat an officer on duty with suspicion or aggression, as with anyone else, expect to be treated in a like manner.

In situations like being pulled over for speeding or worse, common sense should prevail. The officer doesn't know you or your circumstances, and even minor stops have resulted in police deaths or injuries. Simply follow instructions. These policies are designed for your safety and that of the officer.

I used to be far more suspicious of police officers and their methods and demeanor. In connection with my academic studies, I then participated in numerous police ride alongs in Washington, D.C. and New York City, primarily in the early to mid 1990's. These were eye opening experiences. I saw police in some of their best and worst moments, and developed a far more realistic perspective of community policing.

Few people realize the nature of the numerous interactions that patrol officers have with the communities they police, both good and ill. The real world is very messy, and it's far too easy to judge from the comfort of relaxed retrospection.

You should put together details from a few of your experiences (good and bad) into an OP.

and the other half would result in me being accused of acting as a police-loving shill.

Unfortunately, some of my best stories were in connection with programs where I agreed to strict confidentiality, and even though this is an anonymous forum, I intend to keep my promise.

I will say this, my perspective changed forever when I first saw a couple of very young police officers (early to mid 20's, one Hispanic, one white) have to deal with a mostly naked man, obviously high on drugs, waving around a knife near a crowd of people and then repeatedly spitting on the officers. Luckily, the officers were able to peacefully resolve the situation with back-up after a couple of hours, but I thoughr I was about to witness a justified police shooting. I was told, and realized later in other ride alongs, that these types of situations were fairly typical. I have no doubt if many of the people complaining on the board about police had to deal with such scenarios for years, they too would have a different perspective, or at least be far more cynical.

On the more amusing side, I repeatedly had officers offer to buy my marijuana when they purchased some for themselves, particularly while in Washington, D.C. To my surprise, I was told that they did not have the resources to fight minor, harmless drug use by adults, and everyone looked the other way. However, if anyone ever tried to sell drugs near a school or to children, they would regret that choice for the remainder of their days.

I also learned that it is unwise to commit any crime on quiet nights in the winter. Cops are often bored, and officers will respond in numbers just to break the monotony. I'll never forget the look on the face of man caught soliciting prostitutes one January in Anacostia in the middle of the night when five squad cars with lights ablaze showed-up to deal with the situation.

Another interesting note, in major urban centers, many of the officers come from the same poor and minority neighborhoods they patrol.

is I have not heard one of them state their case as intelligently as you do. Therein lies the problem.

However, police are well spoken and sympathetic when it really counts. They tend to have a lot of experience testifying in court and working with attorneys, and when properly and ethically prepared, make excellent witnesses, even apart from the fact that juries just tend to like and trust the police.

When I hear that I grand jury did not indict a police officer, I'm often less surprised than people who have less experience with courts, police officers and the justice system.

I also had a bad experience with a trooper on a traffic stop, I kept my cool and out of fear when ask if I wanted to be transported to the sheriff office I agreed. He was probably having a bad night but I lived to tell my story the next day. BTW, looking down the barrel of his gun I thought he was carrying a cannon. I still respect policemen, they are there to do a job, and I sure like to think they will respond when I call. One cop doesn't make the rest bad.

few times I was stopped I cooperated and all was ok. One time I called cops because a guy was breaking into house one door down from me. They came promptly - the guy started shooting - the cops shot him in the arm - he was arrested. So far I've never had a bad experience with a cop.

Sadly, that is the best you can hope for.

BTW ... all good advice

Treating any person as a "wild animal" based on some preconceived criteria will often end poorly.

but it was explained to me that while the are wild animals, they are more like insects than like, say, a larger predator. Something to be ignored or shooed away rather than feared.

Cops often deal with human beings acting like wild animals, so they have acute reflexes, and then there are the bad ones.

But if you think about the reality of a police officer's experience, they often have to deal with dangerous/unstable people. They behave differently because they have to do so to survive.

I think it's good advice.

That's about how it was growing up in Newark.

I was a.ways taught to treat the police with respect. I was taught to treat any authority with respect. It has always worked well for me.

I know how to fake it pretty good. Survival.

automatically based on a job title or insignia.

welcome to du.

I was taught that "Yes, sir (ma'am)" is the only proper response to being told to turn around and put your hands behind your back-- or any other command from a police officer.

Yes, I'm old.

There's a time, place and manner to assert your rights, and a street corner or traffic stop, no less the middle of a chaotic protest or during or proceeding a violent crime, is generally not the best time and venue.

Go to the head of the class, branford!

Tell them you don't consent to searches.

Tell them they can't search without a warrant.

This thread is discussing behavior at traffic stops - so obviously you are already being detained.

The cop is going to ask you for your license and registration, not to search you or your vehicle - unless you raise his suspicions, as in if you go all "I watch Law & Order and I know my constitutional rights and you can't search me" on his ass. Then he will suspect you're hiding something (drugs, illegal weapons) and bob's-your-uncle, there you are in handcuffs in the back of the cop car while he gets a warrant.

Your suggested response is extremely idealistic. Have you ever actually responded like that to a policeman?
As Marlon Brando said in a great old western film, One-Eyed Jacks, "Talk is cheap, Jack. Make your play."

Sunny Saturday summer afternoon - I was keeping up with traffic but had an out-of-state license & got nailed in a speed trap. I immediately lowered my window and then waited in my car with my hands on the steering wheel. When the state policeman walked up, I addressed him as "Officer". As a middle-aged white woman in a Saab, I doubt that I appeared threatening. When he asked me for my license and registration, I told him they were in my briefcase, which was in the trunk of the car. I asked for permission to get out of my car, i.e, "exit my vehicle". Then he and I walked to the back of my car. I said, "Now, I'm going to open my trunk." I opened it and stepped back. Next I pointed out my briefcase and asked permission to open it. He agreed. I gave him my license and registration. At that point, he said to me, "You're a lawyer, aren't you?" I seriously replied, "Yes."

I never practiced criminal law, but I grew up in the Chicago area, where the cops can be vicious, and I knew the drill. It's important to be calm and respectful.

Once in Pittsburgh, early evening, on the way to a restaurant, I was stopped (cop said I ran a yellow light - I don't think I did, but I didn't argue with him). Here's me - sort of a Mary Poppins type and my out-of-town guests, an elderly, white-haired couple, all white, again in a Saab. The cop took time to run my plates (no history of violations there) and approached my car with his gun drawn! Scared the shit out of all three of us. I can only imagine how terrifying the situation would be if we were black. And that was back in the 90's! The current situation is truly insane, and I'd like to know how many of these cops are vets with untreated PTSD.

Even though in your latter story the officer had his weapon drawn, both you and the officer appear to have acted professionally and with common sense, and everyone left without shots fired. I wouldn't have been surprised if there was a recent incident at a traffic stop or some type of general warning that evening over the radio.

No matter how "Mary Poppins" you or your passengers may have looked, the officer would have been just as dead or injured if attacked or fired upon.

As an aside, I'm surprised so many attorneys have posted in such a short threat. I count at least 4.

Like:

- At a stop light
- On a traffic stop
- Wearing a uniform
- Driving a marked vehicle
- Checking on someone's well being
- Going on a loud music call
- Having a lunch
- Grocery shopping
- Standing around
- Sitting down
- Arresting a shoplifter
- Checking the phone
- Writing a report in the field
- Directing traffic
- On a motorcycle
- On a bike
- Walking

Maybe they should get rid of the bikes and motorcycles, get rid of local police stations and operate only from local military bases, roll 4-6 deep with handguns in hand along with 2 AR-15s at the ready so they can have every conceivable threat covered.

Like this



"I think she's going 40 in a 35 zone, LETS ROLL!"

Many of the issues officers face today, particularly in smaller communities and departments, are actually because of reduced funding resulting in officers on patrol alone.

In order to increase both officer and citizen safety, are you prepared to support additional funding for more officers on the street or patrol?

In any event, you are free to research the many incidents where routine traffic stops rapidly turned dangerous and deadly for police.

Lastly, congratulations on finding a stock photo of the Secret Service. However, given that they're a federal agency, primarily tasked with protecting the president and other officials, are intended to be a heavily armed, and although embroiled in their own issues, have no current problems concerning race or unjustified violence against citizens, I'm not quite sure what the photo is supposed to prove, other than you find black SUV's and law enforcement scary. Maybe since I'm used to seeing such sights near the courts and government buildings in downtown NYC, I'm just not as easily intimidated.

There are not very many such incidents.
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/Criminal%20Procedure%20in%20American%20Society/OfficersAssaulted.pdf

who engage in an astronomically large number of interactions with the public, including traffic stops. Nevertheless, altercations are still notable enough to be considered newsworthy. That alone is an indications of their rarity.

That also doesn't take into account of how many of those statistically insignificant number of incidents in which the officer was fully justified in using force, both as a legal and moral matter.

I assume that you're not alleging that all negative interactions between the police and citizens (and often those illegally here) are entirely the fault of the police?

Additionally, what do you consider an acceptable risk and mitigation strategy. In fact, the original story in our sub-thread discussion involved a totally lawful and peaceful resolution between the officer and poster, despite the drawn weapon. Such prudent policies could arguably be the reason why more police aren't injured or killed during traffic stops.

You totally ignored the infinitesimal number of assaults/homicides to cops during traffic stops. I guess that's not the result you expected when you challenged someone to research it.

Please explain "fully justified in using force... as a MORAL matter."

Altercations are notable enough to be newsworthy, which is an indication of their rarity? Really? What a leap of logic! Do you think the public hears about all the altercations in which someone is brutalized without any good reason?! We are hearing/seeing about them recently because of the cellphones, youtube, the videoblogs, the surveillance cameras... and that is only a portion of them, not nearly all of them. They are not reported! Again...
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/

I did not allege anything, but I do not think all negative interactions are entirely the fault of the police (including illegal aliens, as you so carefully point out).

Approaching a car with drawn gun is the reason why more police aren't injured/killed during traffic stops? Well, I guess it would be. Why are you even bringing this up? It might also be the reason that so many innocent people ARE injured/killed during traffic stops. How many innocent people do you think should be beaten/tazed/shot for an acceptable "risk and mitigation strategy" aimed at protecting a cop from the one assault he may suffer after 20,512 stops?

and one happens to roll by, I never make eye contact and I always act busy either by looking at my watch or playing with my iPod.

Sometimes you can get them to calm down and act semi-tame.