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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnother "Orthodox Jews were seen to "--fill in the blank--" thread today!
One could probably find, say 35 million examples of the equivalent DAILY, in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the like. But because Orthodox Jews are involved, it becomes a serious discussion. Now of course, I am NOT subscribing to their, IMO, idiotic rules in this modern society, but the dwelling upon JEWS is, well, somewhat disturbing and has become a trend around here. But of course, this post alone will lead to much sputtering, gasping, and pearl-clutching by many, including those who tell misogynisitic jokes when their wives/girlfriends,sisters leave the room, but then, who's counting?
Here's an exciting thread title: Two Jewish Physicians develop vaccines which end polio.
Here's another: Jewish Physicist wins Nobel Prize for the discovery and explication of the Photoelectric Effect and later proffers Theory of Special Relativity.
How about this one: Jewish actress to play Tiffany Case upon the return of Sean Connery to the Bond franchise
Or this: Jewish Baseball player named by Sports Illustrated Magazine as the Athlete of the Twentieth Century
While we're at it: Jewish Composer at sixteen years of age assisted by his twelve year old sister pens themes for Shakespeare's a Midsummer Night's Dream including the Wedding March used by couples for hundreds of years.
How's this: Jew sacrifices his life for his beliefs: is crucified by Romans and vanishes into air three days later. Disciples claim that he is the Son of God.
I haven't seen too many of these kinds of posts lately...
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)A bunch of ultra-orthodox Jews show their asses on a plane and you're upset about the response to it? Weird.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)what I'm saying, if you read my post, is that the equivalent occurs within WHOLE SOCIETIES DAILY, and there ain't no threads 'about that, are there?
On edit: You think I'm weird because I posit a question to a group? Who is weird now, Pal?
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Do you actually read this website?
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)Yes, I have been here for ten years: the number of these Orthodox posts greatly exceeds the proportion of occurrences in the known Universe of biases within religion, and typically run up over a hundred responses. That for sitting on particular seat on a plane. When a woman is STONED TO DEATH for an alleged adulterous relationship, the same people who show up for the Orthos are not to be found.
Yes I READ THIS SITE. Sheldon.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I don't actually care how long you've been here on this esteemed website. Any religion that shuns women because they own a vagina deserves to be mocked and ridiculed, long and loud. Tough cookies, as the saying goes.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)You condemn all Jews because of the actions of the Extreme Orthodoxy? Really?
Sheldon?
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)And props for trying to turn the argument against me, as if I'm anti-Semite or something. It's the only option when you're getting your ass handed to you, amiright??
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)But not good enough
youamwrong.
My "ass" is not being "handed to me" by you or anyone else on this Board. Language!!!!
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)PCIntern
(25,583 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Sorry.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Bye yourself!
treestar
(82,383 posts)You know very well Sheldon cooper did not "condemn all Jews."
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Am I to understand from your response that his statement defines "all Jews"?
The misogynist scumbags on this airplane are not representative of "all Jews", no matter how hard you want to argue that they are.
You actually want to stand up for these guys:
treestar
(82,383 posts)Those hats!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The Haredim consider the Israeli government to be an abomination of some sort.
And, yeah, they have the most awesome hats ever:
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Rarely are there posts about Orthodox Jews. Most of the posts about religious extremists are about Christians.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This event did not happen in Saudi Arabia.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)malaise
(269,157 posts)<snip>
US and Israeli intervention led UN to reject Palestinian resolution
Binyamin Netanyahu and John Kerry called Goodluck Jonathan to ask Nigeria to abstain from crucial security council vote
The UN security council rejected a Palestinian resolution demanding an end to Israeli occupation within three years after Israel and the US crucially intervened to persuade Nigeria to abstain from voting.
Palestinian officials and other observers had thought Nigeria would back a Jordanian-tabled resolution, thereby delivering a nine-vote majority on the council which would have required a US veto to be blocked. Washington had been working strenuously to avoid having to use its veto.
Until shortly before the vote on Tuesday, council diplomats had expected the resolution to get nine yes votes. But Nigeria abstained, with its ambassador, U Joy Ogwu, echoing the US position in saying that the path to peace lay in a negotiated solution.
Texasgal
(17,047 posts)This is a discussion board. Discussions happen.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)what's your point?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)It's always a sure-fire indicator that something is absolutely indefensible if the excuse one can even attempt is that people in arguably the most backward place on the planet are ever so slightly worse.
Here's the deal: most DUers can manage to avoid Saudi Arabia. Certainly any lady DUers with a bit of sense would do so. Avoiding a flight into or out of NYC? Not so much.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)is that right?
News to me
what is happening to the Palestinians seems worthy of discussion
at least it sure is here
so I'm not supposed to note that discussion threads involving Jews are front and center. Just say, "Yes". It's easier...
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)There is of course more discussion of US-based news and much of the international news discussion centers on US actions and interests. The userbase is primarily American and the discussions are in English, after all.
Instead of yelling at DUers for calling out blatant misogyny because it hurts your feefees why don't you tell your coreligionists to stop freaking out about women existing?
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)I'm too busy fending off anti-Semitic attacks cloaked as "peri-societal criticism".
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)PCIntern
(25,583 posts)did you happen to understand the substance of my OP? Go back and read it again. Or don't.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)But the bottom line is that when people on DU call out misogynists you're standing up for the misogynists (provided they're Jewish) and not for women. Which says absolutely everything I need to know about you.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Misogyny doesn't get a religious pass.....
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)it's the other poster who is making the counter-argument, not I.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Archae
(46,345 posts)Those Orthodox Jews were being assholes, obviously on that plane.
"We can't sit next to a GURL...she'll give us cooties!"
But just try taking Palestinians to task when they are being assholes as well.
Palestinian media refers to the punks who killed those Jews in a synagogue, as "martyrs."
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You are seriously going to take a stand for these nuts?
elleng
(131,107 posts)PCIntern
(25,583 posts)I was awaiting your presence here .and you know exactly why.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)fundamentalist misogyny is going to attract comment here, whether the people engaging in it are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or Zoroastrian. If you have a problem with that, you should probably find another forum.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)but it sure as heck wouldn't excite people around here this much. Oh do I have to find another forum? I'm not allowed to have an opinion which counters yours? Really?
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)All Jews shouldn't be painted badly by the actions of the guys who showed their ass today on that flight. But this does lead to a conversation that needs to be had. Those societies that degrade women in the middle east are the constant source of negative attention by most. But why don't we speak about the ultra orthodox Jews in this country that still live by those same rules of segregating women from the rest of the population. Why should they be immune from the same harsh criticism that countries like Saudi Arabia are
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)that being said, note the disproportionate outrage when it involves Jews. the excuse often given is that well, Muslim societies, well, you know, there's all that stuff there. Move along now I hear a rabbi farted on the bimah.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)I think this made news more because the flight delay and uproar over it than anything else. I don't think there's that much hatred of Jewish people here at DU
Behind the Aegis
(53,987 posts)Are you Jewish?
BTW: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6020092 That is just in the past few days.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)Those quotes are disturbing but they're all trolls. I'd hope that members who are regularly active contributing members of DU wouldn't hold those opinions.
Behind the Aegis
(53,987 posts)It is nice to hope regular members don't hold those opinions, but a few do; and have learned to adapt. It is very easy for them to spew their filth in the guise of "telling news."
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)The spate of communal misogyny in Israel and the United States, carried out under the pretext of a religious mandate, yet unjustified even by ultra-Orthodox interpretations of Halacha; Haredi Americas wall of silence about sexual abuse; and a variety of other scandals in the Haredi world, such as the targeting of a dissident Hasid in New Square, N.Y., and allegations of financial improprieties. All of these have made headlines.
Yet those of us who care about Jewish communities in the U.S. and Israel have yet to get serious about the threat of Jewish fundamentalism to the vibrancy of our people. Yes, in recent weeks, girls being spit on and women pushed to the back of public buses have attracted public outrage, media exposure and statements of condemnation from across the Israeli political spectrum.
But the deeper problem remains: Not this or that policy, or this or that outrageous display of hypocrisy or sexism, but Jewish fundamentalism in general.
According to a recent study by CBS, the Haredi population of Israel is set to grow 580% in the next half-century. National Religious (Orthodox), secular and other Israeli Jews are expected to become a minority in Israel, squeezed between growing ultra-Orthodox and Arab populations. Even in America, Haredi Jews represent the fastest-growing sector of the Jewish population, threatening not only secular Jewish culture but non-fundamentalist religious Judaism as well.
Ignoring this demographic threat would bring costs as severe as ignoring assimilation or anti-Semitism: the shrinking of the Jewish culture and people, and a powerful fundamentalist bloc that, as in much of the Islamic world, will eventually define Judaism, both internally and externally.
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/148983/fighting-back-against-fundamentalism/?p=all#ixzz3NSdGGN00
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/148983/fighting-back-against-fundamentalism/?p=all#ixzz3NSd4hfb6
JI7
(89,264 posts)even a high percentage growth could still mean they would still make up a small number.
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)"National Religious (Orthodox), secular and other Israeli Jews are expected to become a minority in Israel, squeezed between growing ultra-Orthodox and Arab populations. Even in America, Haredi Jews represent the fastest-growing sector of the Jewish population, threatening not only secular Jewish culture but non-fundamentalist religious Judaism as well."
JI7
(89,264 posts)NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)CBS predicts Arab-haredi majority in 2059
A Central Bureau of Statistics forecast predicts that haredim and Arabs will outnumber the secular population in Israel in 47 years. Israel's population is slated to grow to 15.6 million.
The CBS predicted that 2019 will see 5.84 million non-haredi Jews living in Israel, compared with 5.27 million in 2009. The number is expected to grow to anywhere between 6.09 million and 9.95 million by 2059. This marks a 16%-89% increase compared with today's figures.
According to the CBS forecast, the ultra-Orthodox population will number 1.1 million people by 2019, compared with 750,000 in 2009. By 2059, there will be anywhere etween 2.73 million and 5.84 million haredim a 264%-686% increase.
It is therefore possible that there will be an equal number of non-haredi Jews and haredim in 2059.
JI7
(89,264 posts)and under 3 million of the fundies.
at least in the near future there isn't anything to show the fundies will gain much on the seculars.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)in the IP group an article published in GD. One thing I noticed right away was popularity of the IP group is very high if you look at the number of posts over the years. The numbers dwarf other group totals.
I think you are right. There is a disproportionate response to the issues that involve Jews, even if people claim that its not there or they are not interested. I think there is lot of hidden feelings and agendas there.
Behind the Aegis
(53,987 posts)Unless it is about anti-Semitism....http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026020070 now, contrast with: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026023977 or the one this post is referencing: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026021855
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)Thanks for the link. It helps when tryong to read between the lines. There is an unorganized brigade ready to jump on anything. Interesting names.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)they get their fair share of stick, no more, no less. Last summer there was a story about sex-segregated buses in ultra-orthodox parts of NYC and the patented DU vitriol that emerges in the face of fundy stupidity of any denomination was present and accounted for. I know because I was a participant in that thread.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Are you familiar with the Barbra Streisand effect?
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)it's another proud feather in our caps
my wife is thought to resemble her sufficiently that she's occasionally mistaken for her when we're out.
If you didn't see the thread, you haven't been perusing the main page much.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)PCIntern
(25,583 posts)but she is. That was my point.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)1step
(380 posts)Sorry, but I'm failing entirely to grasp your point.
SamKnause
(13,110 posts)Keep religion in your homes, schools, and places of worship.
No religious sect or denomination has the right to disrupt a plane full of people because of their beliefs.
It is insulting to women.
It is insulting to non believers.
They should charter a plane.
People should not have to put up with their insulting nonsense.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and examples of this tend to be skewered by DUers whatever the religion. While I have seen a touch of anti-Semitism on DU, it is not pervasive. There is much more criticism here of Islamic fundamentalism and evangelical Christians.
840high
(17,196 posts)Christians are criticized the most.
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)That's when it comes to all adherents of those religions.
When it comes to the fundy extremists of each religion, there should be criticism, and there is. In the case of this OP, they're seemingly complaining that DUers are talking about some misogynist extremists who didn't want to sit next to women on a plane and caused the flight to be delayed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026021855
For me the problem isn't OPs about religious extremists, it's the posts that appear that try to portray everyone of that religion as being extremists. And in the case of the OP that's being complained about, no-one was doing that. That's not the way it happens in other threads. Only a few weeks ago in LBN I watched the thread about the Sydney siege get overrun by a few DUers who used it (even though it wasn't terrorism, but a complete nutcase who'd murdered his ex-wife and was up on multiple rape charges) to peddle the RW 'religion of peace' nonsense, and in one case to equate extremist violence with billions of followers of the religion.
And to put this OP in perspective with the complaining about how dare people criticise fundies if they're Orthodox Jews, here's a post where the same person seems annoyed that more DUers weren't in the Sydney siege thread having a go at Islam and Muslims.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=965378
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=965378
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Start one off with this one....
840high
(17,196 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,987 posts)The other was about "Snip-N-Suck Circumcision".
But, it is all OK...not we are not a real culture (except when it is useful).
RandiFan1290
(6,242 posts)So obvious
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)They could have chartered a flight without any women aboard if they didn't want to see any.
JustAnotherGen
(31,879 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)anything else. Are you looking too deeply? Derogatory threads about religion are pretty plentiful.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)no matter the "faith."
We're talking about the fundamentalists of the Jewish faith, not the mainstream and you know that.
I have reform orthodox Jews in the family and they don't pull that crap.
But the ultra orthodox Jewish are pissing a LOT of people off of late:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a-not-so-simple-majority
Here's the sign they have in a PUBLIC TOWN in the US. What other US town would put up with this shit?
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)...but what do I know?
It's funny...my OP was highly critical of the Black Hat sect of MY religion. That was not my issue. They act like assholes, yes. Will it be sufficient for me to say that, or do I have to throw myself on a pyre having first cut myself to ribbons with an x-acto knife? My point was that for all of the horrors perpetrated by religious sects in the world today, in America today, the occasional burp from the Orthodox community is over-represented in terms of posts and attention to them.
But let's return to the fundamental thesis that because these folks do this, then by extension the rest of us should come under some scrutiny. I mean, why else have the thread, right?
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)but this new story is the front page everywhere right now.
People are always fascinated by idiots, no matter their faith or lack thereof.
My relatives call themselves Reformed Orthodox, but what do they know?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)once again my friend, my point was that as soon as a story like this "breaks", we're all over it with our typical DU pearl-clutching and Alas! but I repeat that there is a disproportionate response to these stories compared with the TRUE HORRORS PERPETRATED in other "cicumstances" and I'll be "circumspect" because..well, jsut because. And y'all know exactly what I'm referring to...
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)you might have a different reaction to a story about this kind of superstition?
Being male might just blind you to how offensive these fundy pricks are, but since they wouldn't ever try to make YOU move to accommodate their imaginary fears, maybe you don't feel the same sense of outrage?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)true or not it's a fine tale.
p.s. happy 2015 to all!
Caretha
(2,737 posts)that last example is a little hard to swallow,
but I'm definitely interested in the 16 year old Jewish Composer. Sounds very interesting - got a link?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)She was four years older than him though, not younger.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Muslims doing something like that would make the news.
Those men are extreme and ridiculous just like extremist Muslims and Christian fundies. Why should they get a pass?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Also a female Muslim is not permitted to be alone with a man in private who isn't related.
There are a lot of similarities between the Haredim and observant Muslims.
JustAnotherGen
(31,879 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Sauce for the goose.... Stoopid is stoopid, whoever does it.