and for sharing your thoughts about the issue.

It seems like a giant Jonestown and Kim doesn't seem to want us pouring out all the Kool-Aid, which may lead his ultra brain washed followers to see the light.

We leave them alone. They stop trying to make the big bomb. Everybody wins.

What exactly are we (I'm assuming you mean the US) doing?

We have placed sanctions against the countries for violating treaties and agreements in the past.
We have assisted with the defence of the Republic of Korea (South Korea) since the end of the Korean War.

What has North Korea done?

Set off three nuclear bombs, at least half a dozen missile tests, sunk a South Korean naval ship, and shelled an island with civilians on it. That is just in the time I've been here (11 years).

Notice a difference in the two? Hint: the second set are all violent acts by a madman and his dad.

K&R

I have lived in South Korea for 11 years (currently I live about 26 km from the border) and learned quite a bit about North Korea including issues with refugees. My father-in-law is from North Korea and fought on the side of South Korea. Their leader chooses to use fear and hunger to control them. While there is no estimate on how many of NK's 24 million people are in gulags, there has been ample proof through satellite footage that some of the gulags have been expanded since Kim Jong Un took over.

North Korea is not comparable to the other situations you are alluding to. China has been propping up North Korea for many years though trade and assistance. The best thing that could happen is a complete collapse of the regime including Kim Jong Un's death followed by a slow reunification of the two Koreas.

I'll give you a list of books if you really want to start reading about North Korea:

The Aquariums of Pyongyang by Kang Chol-hwan
Nothing to Envy by Barbara Demick
Escape from Camp 14 by Blaine Harden
The Cleanest Race by BR Myers
White Paper on Human Rights in North Korea 2014

(Of the above books I have read the first two and have copies of the second two in my cue for when I finish my dissertation. I have read one of the older white papers, but not the newest ones. While the white papers are a bit dry, they give an indication of the extent of what is going on in the country).

I also urge you to visit:
Rescue North Korea (US based organization that assists refugees)


BTW I have posted links on North Korea many times on DU and the threads sink like the Titanic. It is an issue very few people care about or are knowledgeable about, especially in the United States.

Especially if our government continues to move rightward. I think George Bush was damned serious when he named North Korea as one of our enemies back in 2003 when he was beating the drums of war. The North Koreans took it very seriously as well. Look at where we are with them now as a result.

There is no doubt that North Korea is a totalitarian state and that is completely at odds with everything we think about government here in America. I think the Frontline film said that there are an estimated 200,000 political prisoners in North Korea. I know that they cannot truly say what they think and there is very little freedom there beyond state approved activities.

What I'm saying is that our situation with North Korea may come to a point where a lot of people, possibly millions, will get killed if we keep heavy pressure on them.

I'll check out your recommendations.

Sanctions just hurt people, so I'm never for them. The wealthy & govt leaders in the countries we do this to are never adversely affected.

Thanks for posting. It was all new to me.

How do you think we should handle the problem?

N. Korea is going to do what it's going to do. Period.

Considering the global warming crisis, it seems odd to point to a picture of excessive energy use, as a marker of superiority, for a way of life. It is like a heavy smoker in the 1950s, laughing at his poor neighbour, because he can't afford two packs a day.

mainly because North Korean coastal waters arent as polluted as its more industrialised neighbours.

But the world doesn't want to live in the 1700s.

The assumption that constantly increasing energy consumption is a mark of progress and high achievement is one of the underpinnings of global warming and other forms of environmental destruction. If we feel the need to criticize North Korea, let's do it on some other basis than their scandalously low CO2 emissions.

I do think the assumption that the degree of basic needs being met by an electrical grids are one (of many) ways to gauge a nation's commitment to its populace; and as the use of that metric is objective, it is valid.

Hard for me to believe that NK is denying power to most of its citizens due to a commitment to clean energy and clean air.

Countries shouldn't be judged on how much light pollution they cause or by how much energy they waste. It is an outdated and environmentally dangerous association, to assume that higher electricity use is necessarily indicative of a more just or better society. Sometimes it just indicates fear of crime, which is quite common in societies with very unequal wealth distributions. It can also indicate conspicuous consumption, also intimately connected with unequal wealth distributions.

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Where has Obama said he'd like South Korea to become like North Korea?

Has he said we should withdraw all the troops there and stop trading with South Korea?

The Red Chapel (Danish: Det Røde Kapel) is a 2009 Danish documentary film directed by Mads Brügger. It chronicles the visit of Brügger and Danish comedians who are adopted from South Korea, Jacob Nossell and Simon Jul to North Korea under the pretense of a small theatre troupe on a cultural exchange. This is also the first time the two comedians have ever visited North Korea.[1] The entire trip is a ruse: the trio are actually trying to get a chance to portray the absurdity of the pantomime life they are forced to lead in the DPRK. The film turns deeply emotional as Jacob Nossell has Spastic Paralysis and North Korea has been accused of disposing of the disabled. The film won Best Nordic Documentary at Nordisk Panorama 2009 and Best Foreign Documentary at the 2010 Sundance Film Festival where it was included in the Official Selection. It is filmed and edited by René Johannsen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Chapel

Gadafi gave up his nuclear program in exchange for pretty promises from the West, then was promptly overthrown and killed by the whisperers of said promises. If you were running N. Korea, i'd expect you'd learn from watching that fabulous episode.

That being said... it doesn't seem that our policy towards them has been working, probably time to try diplomacy. Détente worked with the Soviet Union, why not try it with N. Korea? Or maybe we've been trying and I don't realize it?

...was south Africa . I don't think that was a cautionary tale. And I don't think we had much to do with the colapse of Lybia at all or that if Gaddafi had nukes it would have turned out much different for him. You can't nuke your own population.

The uprising didn't have enough momentum to topple Gadaffi on its own.

... but there had to be an uprising first - and that had nothing to do with the United States going back on some hypothetical promise to Gadhafi in exchange for giving up nukes. Or whatever is being insinuated. The object lesson of the fall of Libya isn't "don't give up your nukes". It's "don't fuck over your own people".

Neither did they want their dirty collaborations with other nuclear nations, especially Israel, exposed.

...scared shitless of the black population, bomb or no bomb. As well they should have been.

... from Foreign Affairs that discusses the topic:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/49411/j-w-de-villiers-roger-jardine-mitchell-reiss/why-south-africa-gave-up-the-bomb

human rights record willing to exploit their population's dirt cheap and impoverished slave labor in exchange for much needed technology.

It's a win for Wall Street, it's a win for brutal governments.

Pretty much everyone else gets fucked in the process, though.

The American dream.

Is better exemplified by South Koria, which actually happens to be both our ally and trading partner . And why would wall street, which is invested in SK, want anything to do with the north? Only the south, which tries to engage the north in some econimic partnerships as a charity towards them has much interest in them, but only for promotion of unification.

Brought to you on my Samsung tablet ☺

Bigger markets and cheap labor. The same with NK.

... North Korea does not have a "market". And it has no productive labor. (Productive labor is what is economically desirable, and cheap labor is not necessary productive labor). And communist China gave up being communist a while back and started developing a market economy. Until that happens in NK, no one on Wall Street needs it and no one on Wall Street cares.

S. Korea standard of living is too high. We don't send 100,000s of US jobs to S. Korea for that reason.

... to China and India? Do you mean buying manufactured products from them? Since we buy manufactured products from South Korea are we "sending them jobs" or not? And do we buy anything from North Korea? No. Is there any chance we will, any time soon? No. Not at all.

Nobody is anticipating any positive economic relationship with North Korea at all.

to a far greater extent than S. Korea.

HP has about 12,000 employees in India developing software for "US" products. In latest restructuring that number could chnage up or down.

Same with IBM, and other tech firms like MSFT, Google, Apple, etc

S. Korea isn't even in top 10.

In addition, the largest offshoring component is in professional services as legal, accounting, medical, etc work is being sent to India.

Not just call centers and IT.

There is only one reason the US picks China, India, Malaysia, etc it isn't their brilliant engineers and scientists (they can't even get electricity to more than half the population).

It is their authoritarian system, low wages and lack of worker protections.

In fact, India routinely shows up in top 5 most dangerous places for women.

So, what does this have to do with N. Korea?

N. Korea has a Kaesong Industrial Region which employs over 50,000 low wage N. Korean people for manufacturing as a model for future manufacturing center.

As far as your assertion
"Nobody is anticipating any positive economic relationship with North Korea at all."

I'm sorry, but it simply isn't true.

...very informative. I'll look into it further .

I do take exception to your characterization of India as an authoitarin system. I've visited India and have several friends who have lived there for many years . It is not an authoitarin society. (Anarchy is their dharma 😊

And while you provided a good deal of factual economic information (Thanks again!) Kaesong Industrial Region is just a political show case and charity vehicle for South Korean unification and family reunion efforts. It's like "cultural exchange" with the Soviet Union during the cold war - just a symbolic effort in the hope of keeping some dialog alive. It has no substantive economic significance to the S Korean companies located there.

police presence everywhere, I was in a night club to see a Well known UK DJ and police were there taking everyone's picture, crawling with undercover police - very weird. Also the military is entrenched in all manner of public policy, barely any land development deal gets done without some Army officer (or ex- Army officer) at center of a bribery scandal.

Perhaps, it's all relative - China is much worse, for sure.

When political tensions shut the NK trade zone it down, it had economic impact on the S. Korean companies there. After all, 50,000 is a lot of people for manufacturing. Maybe a minor glitch at national scale, but it had serious negative impact on the companies relying on that labor.

This is more than just symbolic. S. Korea is being smart. At one time trade with Cuba, PR China and Soviet Russia was considered out of question because of extreme cult of leadership personality.

I predict in my short remaining lifetime, I will see N. Korea become manufacturing center with regular travel by US corporations to N. Korea.

...of police precence . I was there for an international conference right after a terriorstist bombing and the police would show up every morning before we boarded our bus from the hotel to inspect it for bombs. Seemed reasonable to me, not authoritarian. There were also guards and scanners at the entrence to shopping malls, which also seemed reasonable since there is a credible terrorist threat that has to be detered. I don't consider that authoitarianism.

I wish there was some way to take you up on a bet about north Korea becoming a manufacturing center with US participation. I don't see anything like that happening while north korea remains north Korea. If it is absorbed into south Korea it would not be any different than our current trade with the south. I don't see that happening unless China no longer finds the north to be a geopolitical asset . And I just don't see that happening at all.

Only time will tell.

remember - they are still relatively young country and their prognosis is grim. There will not be reunification any time soon, but they cannot stay the way they are.

Mao's China was a far greater threat to US than N. Korea is now and just as brutal. They could not continue.

I see a state still known as N. Korea with trade zones near S. Korea border, China also has a very competitive interest in this outcome.

Berlin Wall coming down is also much greater event than N. Korea opening up for foreign manufacturing.

So, that's my bet. Let's say within 25 years. I may not be around tho so I would never be able to collect

All it takes to win is one US company having product sold in US assembled there. You may have to allow US subsidiary since Samsung, USA, or LG USA would technically qualify in my book, but that could actually be happening now in the trade zone.

For example - if you can buy a LG washer at Sears and it is made with at least 10% parts manufactured in N. Korea, managed by US subsidiary, that would qualify.

I say 10% because you can't really count on any sole source country these days for anything.

What do you think?

He is about the same age as me (50), and I've spoken to him about NK. He's told me that the one thing that nobody ever seems to understand about these regimes is that the charade is common knowledge among the people who live in these places. Most people accept and adapt to whatever circumstances are handed to them. They know that if they keep their heads down, their noses clean and don't raise their voices, life will pretty much roll along. As difficult as the hardship may be, they don't want to make it more difficult for themselves or their families, but that doesn't mean they're ignorant of the circumstances that have been handed to them. People dream about things, but most would never take the difficult and dangerous step to incite change, or (in the case of NK) discuss it with their neighbors.

So, I would take issue with this one statement you made.

That government is so entrenched in the minds of its people and the hatred for America there is so great that it will not be undone through sanctions, an embargo, or even violence.

Last edited Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:49 PM - Edit history (1)

The author thought that the DVDs and music and other South Korean culture seeping in would go a long way. When North Koreans realize how good South Koreans and Americans have it and realize they could have that too.

Will edit when I can get into Goodreads to add name of book and author.

Lankov, Andrei, The Real North Korea: Life and Politics in the Failed Stalinist Utopia

Our dealings, or lack thereof, with them have jack diddly squooo to do with "eradicating Communism". You'll notice we get along fairly well with the Communist government of Vietnam, more or less--- with whom we more recently had a war.

One big difference is, the leadership of Vietnam actually seems to give a shit about their people, instead of viewing them as the enemy through the paranoid eyes of an entrenched dictatorship.

And the problem with "helping out" North Korea is, we would only be helping the human-rights trampling leadership of the country, not the starving and long-abused population. And assisting them in staying in power through several more generations of the Kim family, is not "helping North Korea".

western intervention just seems to make everything much worse.

We were able to rebuild countries after WWIi but incapable of doing that in the neocon era.

But I also don't think enabling some of the planet's most awful totalitarians is a good move, either.

Isolation and embargo does nothing to weaken totalitarianism. Instead it strengthens it. Totalitarianism functions best in a closed society, which is why every totalitarian regime works to create such a closed society.

We are enabling the Kim dynasty in that effort.

Fact is they have that whole country locked down so tight it might not make a difference either way. And it's not like the fruits of a better standard of living would reach the 99% of that country, either.

You are dealing with a country that has kidnapped foreign actresses because the leadership "likes" them. To say you aren't dealing with a rational regime, is an understatement.

I'd defer to the S. Koreans' expertise on the matter, having tried engagement in various forms over the years.

One book I read basically stated convincingly that what they do is perfectly logical when you realize that's all they want. They don't care about the people (they control them with an iron fist) and all they do is designed to keep themselves in power.

They can sip champagne and eat filet mignon every night, if that's what they want. Stalin and the leaders of Eastern Europe had the very same perks. Greed doesn't know the boundaries of political or economic systems because it's a part of human nature. The irony is that they end up with a system that serves the few at the expense of the many. We can slap any label we want on it, but it's the same force that drives our own system. We just tell ourselves that we've harnessed that force for good. Reminds me of the story of the snake hitching a ride on the back of the turtle.

There's some you tube videos on some doctors who went to do eye surgeries. The recipients simply thanked and praised the dear leader! Not the doctor who'd come from abroad!

Inside North Korea with Lisa Ling. It's available on Netflix.

I was too lazy to go find it!

I've seen the show before. It's very good. She also did a show on adoption of Chinese girls that's excellent.

on the adoption of Chinese girls.

By that, I mean it is a system of thought that claims to have all the answers. That is why we hear phrases like "there is no alternative", especially when matters like globalization, tax rates, inequality, and the like are brought up. Toatalizing ideologies do not want any form of alternative to exist, regardless of how weak or irrelevant they are. Thus, our capitalist class is obsessed by states like North Korea. It's very existence is an affront to them.

Unfettered Capitalism in it's own way is every bit as brutal. It's a system in which there must be an underclass.

China is communist (somewhat of a hybrid but are still communist) and we have decent relations with them.

North Korea is a big problem because their government is in full belief that South Korea belongs to them. They believe that the South Korean government is illegitimate and a puppet of the United States. So North Korea is not even going to talk to us in any serious sense unless we agree to give up the South.

The government is also very recluse and commits a lot of human rights abuses that violate all sorts of international laws. They are not going to open up and become more transparent because they dont want the world to know what they are doing. They also don't want their own people to know what they are doing because they are afraid that could lead to unrest.