But watch the fundies make this into a fake scandal.

Everyone still there is posting it all over the FB walls.

ask in this case is did the parent approach the teacher first and then the principal before going to the press. In general school policies are clear about the students rights to read religious materials during free reading times. In addition the student can share his beliefs with his classmates so long as the classmates accept discussing the topic. To continue to do so if they do object is a form of harassment. Several organizations have sponsored clear guidelines regarding faith in public schools.

"Because the Establishment Clause does not apply to purely private speech, students enjoy the right to read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray before tests, and discuss religion with other willing student listeners."
https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/joint-statement-current-law-religion-public-schools

If you come across this in Facebook, refer to this joint statement put out by the ACLU and other organizations.

Why do they waste GODS time to give them the answers to the test if they would have studied and could pass the test without the old guy setting up on his cloud passing down the answers, that seems like cheating!

confident, relaxed mindset that will help them to perform their best on the test. Studying is only part of the challenge of taking a test. Execution is important as well.

Interesting fact, God can grant them that calm, peaceful state of mind without even having to actually exist. So if he does exist, he can be of even more help. So praying before a test makes perfect sense to me.

I attended the school. There's never been a problem with it, as long as you are quietly doing so during free time, library time or lunch time.

It sounds like this was never discussed with the teacher, supposedly because it happened right before winter break. Of course there was plenty of time to call Fox 4 news.

Strange how there was no time to discuss with anyone in the school district, considering it's a small town and everyone knows a member of the school board. You can find their home numbers listed in the phone book.

The timing over Christmas break seems to be strategic for maximum exposure with minimum opportunity to respond. Typical lousy journalism. Got to show Christian persecution even when none exists.

considering someone in that family is probably related to someone with power in Marshall. This could have easily been resolved in record time without drawing the media in.

I haven't lived there in nearly twenty years and I know I could still find someone in a matter of minutes if I needed to. Hell, I could put out a plea on FB and have 50 responses within an hour, offering me whatever info I needed. How could someone who is local not find anyone to contact? It's a small town-you run into everyone at the grocery store, at church, at the movies, at a gas station or at Walmart!

Even if you ask the other student to leave you alone, they will continue. If you try to talk to a teacher or the principal about it, they will join in with the other student and preach at you.

I see the AR uses NIV for the Gospel of John. I do find it interesting that it is listed as nonfiction and middle grade reading interest.

I didn't find report of any final resolution - but it certainly seemed from the reported comments and the sequence of events as if the teacher in question assumed the Bible was not on the AR list without checking further.

I'm surprised that NIV would be the AR translation - it has a reputation at least of being a slightly less rigorous translation (in favor of being easier to read).

And they are reading to themselves then the parents have a case.....a lot of if's need answered first.

Having been a secondary school teacher for a number of years, I am just suspicious of something at the middle or high school level which a student characterizes as free time. There are too many times I have provided class time to work on course projects which the student treats as "free time" because I am not standing at the front of the class lecturing. If such a student was reading the Bible during that time (or anything else unrelated to a project in my class), I would have made them stop as well. Not because it was the Bible - but because class time set aside to work on course projects is not free time.

We had "study hall" periods. We weren't in a class, but it was held in a class room. It wasn't actually free time, you couldn't take a nap, for example. It was intended for catching up on specifically assigned reading or doing homework, so reading a paperback novel or anything like that was forbidden.

I would assume that to be the case here, but as I said, I've been out of school for a very long time and things change.

We wouldn't have been allowed to read the Bible in study hall.

I can safely say that this has been blown out of proportion.

CHERSTERNANITY IS NERT SERF! HERD YER CHERLDRENS!

the Christo-fascists will blow anything out of proportion. You shouldn't be allowed to bring a religious text onto public property anyway!

and it was never a problem. You could read during free time, library time or lunch time. I'd bet it wasn't a "free time" like he said and that he just decided it was.

was the first thing she thought also!

I've had teachers with bad attitudes in the past but in this town over a Bible? No way he was told to put it away in his free time. There's more to the story.

Actually I do have the bible on my kindle and I did recently take it to pay my auto tags - I wasn't reading it, as it turns out -but I had it. Should I have been escorted from the property?

What other books should people not be allowed to read on public property?

Bryant

We can bring reading material and more than a few have taken Bibles with them.

It occurred to me after posting that that probably wasn't an issue there.

But I'm more interested in the principal gopiscrap is suggestion that any religious material should be kept out of Government Buildings.

Bryant

Whatever brings peace to their minds while waiting on a stressful situation.

Nobody's saying you should be arrested for "Possession of the Bible". If the time is called Free Time, but students are expected to study then a Bible is properly contraband. Public schools should not use the Bible as a text book and middle school is a bit early for Comparative religion, which would be an exception unless the Khoran is on the list also, as well as The Golden bough.(dating myself, I know some of the TGB has been discredited, but you get my point).

I really don't think the poster meant that the Bible couldn't be read during lunch. I don't think you believe that either.

gopiscrap made the following assertion.

You shouldn't be allowed to bring a religious text onto public property anyway!

That kind of thinking is what gets the persecution complex going Christians going. Also it is in violation of our Constitution and frankly bad form.

Text onto public property?

"You shouldn't be allowed to bring a religious text onto public property anyway!" So, according to you, someone isn't allowed to quietly read a religious text in a public park? Let's say someone purchases a Bible, or the Bhagavad Gita or the Lotus Sutra, or the Epic of Gilgamesh, or any other religious text. How are they supposed to get it home? Apparently you don't even want them to walk down the street [public property] with it. You may not like religion, but where the fuck do you get off wanting to control what other people can read, and where? It's a slippery slope.

"You shouldn't be allowed to bring a religious text onto public property anyway!"

Denial of primary and secondary sources for Comparative Religion courses seems somewhat anti-education. However, no doubt we all rationalize those things we wish to deny others in the name of Freedom from time to time.

For a young man who brings a Koran in his backpack to quietly read during a free period? Expulsion perhaps?

You can bring any religious text you want into any public space you want?

He was probably wanting to read it during a time when he was supposed to be doing something else.

has the right to personal reading material in a public school classroom. Unless, of course, a teacher has said that they should have it and read it if they get done early, or for any other reason.

My middle school classroom is filled with shelves; there are over 3500 titles available to my students that are not textbooks or other required readings, and they are also encouraged to read whatever they want from any parent-approved source at certain times. I wouldn't stop a kid from reading the bible during those times, although it would bother me from a teaching perspective. Why? Generally, a student who brings a bible to read when there are so many other choices comes from a family that restricts reading choices, or has conditioned the student to self-restrict. I think a well-rounded education includes reading in all genres, widely and deeply. But that's a professional choice on my part; I don't have to allow students to read anything but adopted text materials.

I would, of course, object to any kind of proselytizing happening at school.

In this case, I'd need more information to judge. Is this a one time, one day situation, or has it been on-going? Is this the first time the kid brought his bible, or the first time the teacher has talked to him about it? What about that "free time?" Was it really "free?"

I have been known to take students' personal books and set them on my desk when they are being read during a lesson, or any time a student's attention was supposed to be engaged elsewhere. Available for them to pick up when they are really "free," of course. And "free" means that they did their best on any assignment they were supposed to be completing; hurried, careless work doesn't count.

My natural bias suspects that this family, and this student, are using the classroom to make a public religious/political statement.

I attended this school. I remember the father and I know the principal. I also know that half the school board has numbers in the phone book yet they were not contacted before the family went to the press.

Marshall, MO is about 14,000 and the families tend to be interrelated. That's not an insult-it's just how it is. Small older rural town and everyone is related. Someone in that kid's family is related to someone in power in town. There was no reason to make this a media event. Hell, I haven't lived there in almost twenty years and I know that I could open a phone book, make a few calls and contact the mayor and at least three school board members. NO way a local couldn't run into someone at the grocery store, at Walmart, at church or even a gas station.

and I can't agree with it. You can define the parameters of your class time, but, if you allow private discussions about non-school related topics, you also have to allow discussions about an individual's religious beliefs. The exception being when another student indicates that they do not care to hear that discussion. In that case the student should be free to disengage from the discussion and attempts for continued approach of that student is harassment.

I agree with you that the family is probably trying to drum up the persecution complex. It is irresponsible journalism.

what you are trying to say, and what I said, is found in the term "proselytizing."

I don't think you'll find that I said there could be no discussions about religious beliefs.

Is inviting your friend to go to church with you proselytizing? I agree telling someone that they are a sinner can be a form of harassment, but telling someone that Jesus is the path to salvation??? Not sure I can tell the difference. I had a friend in high school that tried to recruit me for Demolay? Is he proselytizing? I turned him down and didn't give it a second thought. Had another friend invite me to church - I went because I had a romantic interest in the friend. The romance did not happen, but the invitation led to baptism and confirmation in that church. Later I met my wife at another church of the same denomination. All in all a pretty good experience for me.

I agree that like anything else recruitment ("proselytizing&quot can be abused if it leads to social ostracism or impacts equal treatment in the school setting (ie the Air Force Academy situation). That has to be carefully watched, but it should apply to any situation even those that don't involve a faith decision.

It would be helpful to know what you view as proselytizing. Can you invite a friend to a football game but not church?

To be honest, I didn't really think this was hard to understand, but you've certainly opened the topic up, and that's okay with me.

Proselytizing is any attempt to persuade another to become a member of one's own faith. Your comparison to recruitment is apt, and extends my point further.

This article, the situation in the OP was in middle school. 11-14 yos, on average. They are minors. It's not okay to recruit people's children without permission. The school is "in loco parentis;" we have a legal obligation to protect students from those efforts, since it's up to parents to decide whether or not to allow those efforts to recruit their kids. Since that's an individual, not collective, decision, it has to take place privately. Just because it's not okay doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in some places, depending on the community.

Do I think inviting someone to church is proselytizing? Not necessarily. It happens frequently in my school, and we don't view it that way. We also have students with various bibles on campus; having or reading a bible of any kind is also not proselytizing. Both of those things certainly open the door, but that's not what I'm referring to.

MAD, during class, even. But then, MY parents would have approved! No teacher ever came down on me, and I became an English teacher!

And as an FYI: In regards to the canon of Western Literature as well as in Western art, knowledge of the Bible is invaluable in understanding allusions, symbols, themes, etc. To discourage its reading, to even THINK that way, is, well, let's just say disheartening. "Paradise Lost," indeed.

BTW: "Bible," as a title, is capitalized. J/S.

I can ignore your lesson, just read and you'll leave me alone?

Really? Thats your opinion? You sure you want to die on that hill?

1. Have very poor reading comprehension skills, or

2. Don't care about accuracy in your zeal to make a point, or

3. Think aggressive arguing without evidence somehow might possibly lead to a "win," or

4. Care more about fighting and winning than about any point to be made, or

5. A combination of some or all of the above.

"No minor has the right to personal reading material in a public school classroom". My reading comprehension is just fine. So a kid "smuggles" a comic book in his backpack and I guess you have a big problem with that.

Either that, or your vocabulary is so poor you don't know the difference between "backpack" and "classroom."

I can't speak for all the schools in the nation, of course. I have taught in large and small schools in various districts in two states. In elementary school, backpacks are in classrooms, although they may not be available at desks for student use. In middle schools and above, backpacks are generally in lockers, not classrooms. As a matter of fact, in every school I've ever worked in, backpacks were not allowed in classrooms.

Personal items are to be kept in lockers. The only things brought to a classroom are those things needed for the academic tasks in that classroom. Comic books, unless the teacher has given prior permission, would fall into that category. In my case, as is clear if you read and understood, comic books would not be a problem as long as they weren't in use at inappropriate times. They wouldn't be in backpacks, though, because those would be in the lockers.

You're totally avoiding the issue anyway. You're original statement implies that children shouldn't be bringing ANY reading material into the classroom unless YOU pre-approve it. How progressive of you.

You can't really picture me accurately in my classroom, because I haven't given you enough information to do so, and the information I have given you've either ignored or just can't picture.

I'm not avoiding the issue. This is my job. I know the parameters. I stated the parameters. You don't understand; I get that. You may not have the capacity. You don't have the background information about my classroom necessary to visualize it, and you may not have, nor want, the background information necessary to discuss the issue adequately. Or, you may just have really weak conversational and argumentative skills, and thus feel like I'm condescending when I point out reality.

Based on your first statement alone.

When people write they should take their audience into account. The general understanding is that backpacks are taken to school and their contents make their way into the classroom. I read your sentence to mean that you don't think personal reading should be taken to school as well.

Last edited Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

which is generally middle school and up, backpacks stay in lockers. They don't go into classrooms. Depending on the school, and the individual teacher, personal items are in the backpack, in the locker, to be accessed at free time...lunch, or recess, etc. What goes in the classroom is what is needed in that class, and nothing else. That's a generalization, of course; different schools and districts do things differently. It's the norm for the states, districts, and schools that I've worked in over the course of my career. The general understanding of those who have attended school, and/or have children attending school, in those states and districts is not that students drag their backpacks and all their personal items into the classroom. As a matter of fact, generally, information about backpacks, lockers, and personal items is given out at the beginning of each school year so that there are no misunderstandings.

It's teacher discretion what "personal" items may be brought into the classroom. For example, in my language arts classroom, any and all reading material may be brought in, but may not be open and in use during lessons or while completing assigned tasks that don't require them. In the math class down the hall, those items aren't welcome. Students may also bring in their kindles, nooks, and tablets, subject to the same expectations. In the math class down the hall, no. In the school closest to my location, Language Arts teachers as a department allow no reading material in the classroom that they have not assigned. That's teacher discretion.

My students know that I want them to read widely and read broadly. They know that I don't like poorly written novels with bad plots, and that I'll give them a hard time if that's what they choose; and they know that I want them to choose. My classroom actually spends a great deal of time on student choice reading. My students love to talk to me about what they are reading, and to argue their choices. They aren't afraid to take a stand with me, because they've been taught, and encouraged, to speak up, respectfully, and provide evidence for their points. They expect me to call them on weak arguments, and would be disappointed if I didn't. If I don't, their classmates WILL. All of that is beside the point.

The point: there is no student "right" to pack personal items that are not related to the learning happening into a public school classroom. That's the teacher's call. As teachers, part of our job is to reduce distraction and make sure our students are on task. Part of reducing distraction includes reducing the "stuff."

A bible of any kind, if not part of assigned reading, shouldn't be in the classroom unless the teacher has allowed students to bring in outside or recreational reading. There isn't a student "right" to do so. That doesn't mean that it can't be in the backpack/locker available for free time. Reading a bible of any kind during free time is not the same thing as proselytizing, which is what I said should NEVER happen.

I'm happy to explain in further detail for anyone who really wants to know, rather than making broad assumptions and jumping to "fight" without evidence. As far as "taking my audience into account" on DU, I expect people who take the time to read what I post to read closely to determine what I'm actually saying. I give them credit for a reasonable level of literacy, and for not making assumptions about situations when don't have enough background knowledge to do so with any level of accuracy.

if it's the teacher's call, as you say.

Please remember that a secondary classroom is a place where students meet with teachers for a specifically scheduled time and purpose. The teacher's job is to teach content and skills, and make sure students are on task practicing and mastering that content and those skills. The student's job, while in that classroom, is to apply him or herself to the mastery of the content and skills that the teacher is offering. That's what the taxpayers pay for, that's what the state requires, that's what the district hires teachers to do with that tax money, and that's what site admins evaluate the teachers based on. The content and skills they teach and learn.

The classroom is not a place provided for personal time. So, no; students do not have a right to personal reading material in the classroom, unless the teacher in that classroom has allowed personal reading material to be used in the directed pursuit of the content and skills that classroom exists to teach.

My kids are supposed to bring reading material. They're strongly encouraged to do so. The idea of a teacher banning books the way toys and phones are banned is crazy. I understand limiting it during class because you need them to pay attention and do their work. But an outright ban? I would request a transfer if my kids ended up with a nutty teacher like that.

The answer to your question is there. You understand limiting it during class..."during class" IS "the classroom." You do understand this, right? Students aren't in the class when it's NOT "during class."

Also, take a look at my previous reply to you, # 102. The key word there, "discretion," indicates that the situation is not automatic for every classroom.

School gets told by its lawyers that, just to be safe, no religious activity by anyone should be allowed.

I went to school there and I'm not buying the story. Personally, I think they kid decided it was time to read when they weren't supposed to be reading and was told to put it away. What he decided was free time probably wasn't free time.

I know too many people in that town who would fawn all over the kid for reading a Bible anywhere.

BTW-looked up the teachers online. The kid said "he" so it had to be a male. There are only a few male teachers. I went to high school with one, another is a local kid that was much younger, the others teach band or PE. Not a single one teaches a reading/English/Com Arts class, where reading would be encouraged. I think the kid was reading when he wasn't supposed to be reading.

... especially if you are an overprotected kid with a healthy imagination.

Same thing was also said of National Geographic magazine. No doubt, the half-wits agreed.

seen some pretty obnoxious middle schoolers who are "filled with the spirit" and need to spread the word at every opportunity.

reading might be ok but witnessing and preaching during school hours would piss me off

The kid said "he" in the interview so it was a male teacher. The only male teachers there teach science, math, PE and music. I'd bet that there was no free reading time allowed for the classes and the kid is mad because he was called over it.

Same headline and everything.

In that case it wasn't that the kid couldn't read his bible in school, it's that he wanted to read his bible instead of one of the books on the class reading list.

Florida story claimed it was free time too.

how it probably wasn't a "free time" for reading. I looked up all the male staff at Bueker and they teach music, PE, math and science-classes that might not have a "free reading time".

Objective journalism, with no sensationalist right-wing propaganda?

I just know who some of the players are in this piece and I suspect the kid is full of it and that Justin (his dad)is blowing it up.

that one poorly written article. Granted, the kid's quotes were probably accurate - awful grammer and all, but just the way the piece read was horrid. I know it's Fox, but jeez louise.

I'm not at all surprised. I only watch that station for football.

there?

(Nosy but also interested in seeing if any of my old classmates teach at our school.)

The kid said "he" in the interview so we know it's a male teacher. The only male teachers at the school teach music, PE math and science. There are none teaching a Reading/English/Com Arts class, which usually offer free time for reading. I suspect the kid decided that he was going to read in what he decided was "free time" when really it was time for something else, was called out for it, told his dad and dad blew it way out of proportion.

to task for READING A BOOK. Yeah, the Bible. What of it? It is a MAJOR source for Western culture, art, literature, music.

I guess he's depraved onaccounta he's deprived.

"Hey, put the book away and study your notes."

I went to this school, I graduated from the district, I know some of the teachers and I know the dad. The dad will take things way out of proportion and blow it up because, well, DRAMA. And the school has always allowed the Bible to be read during reading time or a student's free time, which is usually during lunch or library time.

From what I'm hearing about it, dad chose to contact the media before even calling anyone at the school. This isn't in the article but info I'm hearing from people in the area. Honestly, I'm not surprised.

He's a great guy and he followed in the family business. (His dad was the vice principal at Marshall High School.)

The father of the student: I was ahead of his sister in school and I've heard all about him. I heard that he's had "problems" over the years. (Look at him on the video and you can guess the problem.) I also heard from locals that they knew nothing about the issue until it appeared on Channel 4. They know the teachers at the middle school and one of them knows the school board. No one seemed to know anything.

I heard yesterday that no one knew a damn thing and that it has the school in an uproar. From what I understand, the local paper refused to cover it because there was nothing to substantiate the initial claims. When a small town paper that peddles in gossip refuses to cover a story you know there is nothing there.

Rinse, repeat.

It just shocked me seeing the old hometown mentioned for something so-odd. It's a very religious town, hypocritically so. I also knew the players in the story. It just surprised me to see something I immediately knew was a bald-faced lie.

Silly journalists took it hook line and sinker.

So good on 'em.

I'm sure other outlets weren't so careful- particularly the news ones starting with an "F" and ending with an "OX".

I am not a believer in corporal punishment, but in this instance seems to me the father has some obligation to make the boy understand the consequences of bearing false witness.

Doesn't the bible say something like 'spare the rod, spoil the child.' Kid could have cost someone their job.

Sarcasm. . .

It never happened.

There's an updated link in the thread about it. I heard from others back home that it never happened and this was all about attention.

or did they just make the whole thing up altogether?

Not a ton of other details beyond 'story falls apart', but it sure as shit doesn't sound like anything resembling "they made me stop reading my bible at school"

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/viral-story-about-bible-hating-missouri-teacher-falls-apart-after-principal-investigates/

but there seems to be no teacher involved in the incident.

Of course, persecution can be when they think someone looked at them funny when they were praying in tongues at the KFC.

And then when even that didn't happen they need to make something up.

That entire Ninth Commandment about false witness is trivial compared to being seen as a martyr on the nightly news.

Too many people from that town that knew nothing about the incident, including people I knew would know something. (Small town, everyone knows everything.)

I grew up there. The incident didn't pass the smell test, yet was being broadcast everywhere. Even the local paper refused to cover it.

"Loyal says he loves reading his Bible."

"“There’s kids walking around disrespecting their teachers, kids walking around cussing and everything else and they’re practically getting into no trouble at all,” Justin said."

I don't know about y'all, but when I see that much right-wing butthurt, I get REAL suspicious that maybe someone's butt isn't hurting at all.

I knew people who read their Bibles all the time during free time, who said silent prayers before meals and tests, who quietly but publicly made their religion known without making a big deal of it.

I went to school there, I know or at least know of the players involved in the story. Nothing passed the smell test-nothing.

No teacher would ask a student to put a book away.

I knew it was. I attended that school. The only time a teacher would tell you to put away a book would be when you weren't supposed to be reading it in the first place.

Either they wanted to attention or to attack a specific lesson plan or subject/teacher. For a moment I thought they wanted to attack science, since the science teacher is one of the few male teachers in the school and I believe the youngest male teacher.

Shocking! Oh wait, no it isn't.

Julie

There are good Christians, even though they don't appear on the news. This is a case of small town former meth heads who were "born again" and want the world to know that they feel persecuted for events they refuse to let go. In other words, it's small town trash who have no problems dragging everyone through the ringer for their fifteen minutes.

explaining this was a lie and they were duped because they didn't do due diligence?

I would love to see it posted when it happens (although I may be dead by then)

I hope the school sues for one. I hope Lance sues for one. He should, as should every male teacher at Bueker, since there are only a handful.

pointed out that there will always be prayer in public school as long as tests are given.

If it is like where I live, they are trying to make a big stink to prove how much more Christian they are than everyone else and how the evil public education system is out to deny Christians their God given right to do whatever the fuck they want when they want without some woman telling them what to do.

and lacking in any ethical foundation which might instruct them to speak honestly. They seem to think they have to right to mendacity.
So when they make such a claim, I assume they are being less than honest.....

I posted this last week, before the follow-up. I attended Bueker and I knew there had to be much more to this story.

I know this story is a fake, but we should always take advantage of such stories to point out that liberals are not anti-religion, but that we are instead defenders of religious liberty. If a school were really denying their students the right to read their Bibles during their free reading time, we would be the first to leap to the students' defense.