So, sorry.

but it really doesnt matter which lefties arent voting the more the left sits out elections the farther right the dems will have to go to get votes

Do you have any data backing up your claim that the left has sat out recent elections?

Also, of course which Democrats sat out the elections matters. If conservative Democrats can't be relied upon to show up at the polls, then it doesn't make sense to drift ever rightward to woo them. The party will, eventually, alienate the left and lose it.

This Dem will be sitting out any Hilary/Jeb race, although not the concurrent Congressional races. I will be back to full participation when the party moves left.

I am doubltful that the party has moved right because the left is sitting it out. If so, they are in more trouble than I thought. That strategy makes absolutely no sense.

Precisely how is it pushing Democrats to the right, and on what objective sources do you base this?

you wont win an election on independents alone

As demonstrated by 2000, 2002, 2004, 2010 and 2014. In those years, Democrats ran campaigns based on your assumptions of the electorate. And lost.

"Marginally attached voters" are not centrists. They're people that feel they have no reason to vote because we have a right-wing party and a right-wing party that occasionally apologizes for what it does.

Hence, your premise is less a premise, and more an unsupported editorial.

and pick them back up again? Why would you move right, since most people on the right wouldn't vote Dem if their lives depended on it. We've already seen that people who vote right will pass left ideas in referendums, they just won't vote for anything called Democratic.

Those non-voting lefties, however, will return to the fold as soon as Dems start espousing ideas that are within shouting distance of being left.

Reality disagrees with you:

Did liberals really stay home and cause the 2010 rout?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/06/1003805/-Did-liberals-really-stay-home-and-cause-the-2010-rout
“So I went back to the exit polls and the picture I see shows nothing like that. If you are a proponent of this claim, I challenge you for empirical proof that some set of activist liberals "took their ball and went home" or whatever metaphor you prefer to make Obama's leftward critics appear childish and immature. Inside, the evidence I found that shows this just ain't so.”

http://blogforarizona.net/do-progressives-even-sit-out-elections-the-numbers-say-no/
“As you can see, Democrats did slightly better with liberals in 2010 than in 2006. Had there really been a collective we’re-sitting-out-the-election-to-spite-Obama pout going on, then there should have been a sharp drop in the liberal participation percentage. Yet notice the 9% in moderate voter participation and the concomitant 10% increase in conservative turnout. Republicans were pumped for that election but their turnout tends to be higher in midterms anyway. Millions of moderate voters either flipped to conservative or stayed home in 2010.”

“As you can see, all the Democratic groups dropped, but the liberal Democrats dropped least of all”

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/progressive-movement/news/2012/11/08/44348/the-return-of-the-obama-coalition/
Ideology. Liberals were 25 percent of voters in 2012, up from 22 percent in 2008. Since 1992 the percent of liberals among presidential voters has varied in a narrow band between 20 percent and 22 percent, so the figure for this year is quite unusual. Conservatives, at 35 percent, were up one point from the 2008 level, but down a massive 7 points since 2010.
Ideology. Obama received less support in 2012 from all ideology groups, though the drop-offs were not particularly sharp in any group. He received 86 percent support from liberals (89 percent in 2008), 56 percent from moderates (60 percent in 2008), and 17 percent from conservatives (20 percent in 2008).

http://graphics.wsj.com/exit-polls-2014/
Ideology: Liberals were 23% of the vote in 2014, up from 20% in 2010.

http://www.thirdway.org/third-ways-take/the-impact-of-moderate-voters-on-the-2014-midterms
There is no doubt that moderate voters were crucial to the outcome in 2014, and though Democrats won them 53% to 44% overall, it wasn’t sufficient (in fact, they did 2 points worse with moderates than in the 2010 wave).

Liberals were 25 percent of voters in 2012 this kind of statement doesnt prove that the left didnt stay home - this says "of the people who didnt stay home 25% were liberals "

btw what is my agenda - the one you accuse me of having

Your data is based entirely on exit polls. As in, the people that showed up to vote.

The problem the party has is not getting liberals that show up anyway to continue to show up. The problem the party has is getting people to bother voting to begin with.

Turning to the right is predicated on the left-right distribution of voters being an upside-down V. Big peak in the middle, tapering off as you get more radical. And back when the WWII generation was mostly alive, that was true. Third way worked for a while. However, times change.

Radicalism among the Republicans, along with the passing on of most of the WWII generation, means the political distribution is now an upside-down W. There's a left peak, and a right peak. Republicans are running on the right peak. Democrats are running in the hole in the middle. And that's dumb.

Democrats need to stop trying to win Republican votes, and start going after disaffected voters in the other peak. Because there's a metric fuckton of them.

Participation among younger GenX and older Millennials is abysmal. Both of those groups lean to the left. You're not going to get them to start showing up by turning even further to the right.

(Older GenX along with younger Boomers are the tea party. Younger Millennials are too young to have a handle on yet)

Politically, young GenX has been ignored our entire lives. For example, it's not like student loans and expensive college tuition are a new problem, and we complained about it when we were in younger. We got no help. Same with many other issues we cared about. The small size of our generation meant that older boomers were never forced to form a coalition with us. So they didn't.

Instead, Democrats were busy doing things like raising our retirement age and cutting the social spending that was helping us and passing "free trade" agreements that ended our fledgling careers.....just like the Republicans. When we get the same result with either party being in charge, it's hard to convince my compatriots to show up to vote.

Frankly, I have no idea how the Democrats are going to reach the vast majority of my generation that are disaffected by politics. We're old enough now that we do not have as many common issues as Millenials, but we're not old enough to have the common issues of older Boomers. So frankly I don't think Democrats should work much on the "young GenX" vote specifically. Just try to reach as many of us as possible using a "make life suck less" platform, instead of something specifically targeting us.

Millenials, OTOH, are young enough to still have somewhat common problems. Democrats need to do what they failed to do with GenX, and actually start listening to them and addressing their problems. Loudly. And stop cowering in terror from their solutions. Minimum wage hikes? Fuck yea. And start screaming about how they are helping the economy, instead of running and hiding from them. Tuition and student loans? Direct lending was a start, but there's miles to go. And infrastructure means jobs, and potential careers, for younger people who are currently having to ask if we'd like fries with that.

In other words, stop being Republicans that occasionally claim to feel bad about hurting people, and actually help them and be proud of it. That will give them a reason to vote. They are not walking around "with their faces in their iPhones" because they're happy. They're escaping from the shitty reality we created for them.

Wanna talk about marching and the draft and everything you did instead? Fine. We'll take over the party and do it after you die. But it's gonna suck getting to then, and we're not gonna be much help when both parties screw up your retirement.

with regard to getting people to show up to vote and the causes why people currently aren't. Completely.

However, the data DOES say exactly what I said, and in fact your own sentence seems to agree:

The problem the party has is not getting liberals that show up anyway to continue to show up. The problem the party has is getting people to bother voting to begin with.

Exactly right. Liberals show up, it's the rest we need to convince. I posted the exit posted data specifically as a rebuttal to the claim that Democrats lost because liberals/the far left/pony wishers didn't bother to show up. They did.

Some liberals show up anyway. Mostly older Boomers.

There's a large number of liberals who do not bother to show up, young GenX and Millenials, because our party ignores their needs.

Your data says the older Boomers who bother showing up continued to bother showing up. It does not cover all liberals.

Yes, we need MORE people to show up, including more liberals of all ages. On that we agree

The point in posting the data, however, is that the so-called conservative democrats like to claim that losses since 2008 are the result of "pony wishing liberals" dropping out and no longer voting for Democrats in the same numbers because "they didn't get their ponies". The data show this simply isn't true. The percentage of Liberals voting for Democrats increased as a proportion of the total votes. So claiming liberals abandoned the Democratic party is pure unadulterated bullshit. Yet our "conservative democrats" like to tell that lie again and again.

In fact, that's about as deranged a reason behind low voter turnout as it gets… But, it still "gets it" from some at DU.

And they are unapologetic about knowingly telling the lie. Is it a surprise they are also the ones arguing the party needs to keep moving to the right?

I've had various right wingery versions of this today alone. I can see how important it is for these infiltrators to wee wee their way around.

vote b/c i believe if the left votes consistantly the our pols wont have to lean to the right to get more moderate votes

Here's a hint. Liberals ARE Democrats. It's like saying "Labradors and dogs".

And liberals showed up to vote. It was the moderates and conservative Dems that failed to go to the polls.

blanket statement is accurate but

if democrats ARE liberals then conservative democrats are ? (conservative liberals)

The Democratic party has already shifted so far right that we now have a President that describes his own economic policies as "mainstream 1980's Republican" and says in many ways Nixon was more liberal than he is...and so-called conservative democrats want the Democratic Party to shift further towards the rapidly going insane Republican party??

I don't consider people that want us to become even more like Republicans to be Democrats at all. Just because the Republican party has hurled itself so far right that these people can no longer associate themselves with it does not mean we have to listen to them as they say we just need to move "a little more" to the right to capture voters.

for a new party. The Republicans are insane, the Democrats are becoming home for the sane Republicans e.g. Obama et al. (center right). Now we need a home for the center left and left.

Your post above is very good and informative.

Now that is the funniest thing I have read in a long time.

There, fixed it for you.

whose right wing policies in the Dem Party are driving voters away. Voters in the midterms DID vote, but they voted for Progressive ISSUES wherever they appeared on local ballots.

Who they refused to vote for are elected officials who vote for Third Way/Reagan policies, such as CUTTING SS.

Now that you know this the question is, how to get these dissatisfied voters back.

Since they have told us, it isn't hard to figure that out.

STOP giving them candidates they don't want.

They don't want candidates who lean to the Right.

They want DEMOCRATS who will FIGHT against the Right for SS and the Working Class. Who fight to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes. Who will fight against Corporations dictating policy to their party.

Iow, LISTEN to the voters.

Blaming them is driving them away because it demonstrates exactly what the voters have been saying. 'you're not listening to us'.

My wife thinks so ...

Too many Bush-era policies have been carried forward and in some cases, embraced and expanded, instead of being thrown into the trash can, where they belong.

but then, maybe we're saying pretty much the same thing....

The Democrats have been guilty of this for a long time. I remember Bartcop putting pink tutus on the worst offenders but it never was as bad as it is now.

And, it garners more bribes...er....campaign contributions from corporations..er...persons.

by folks who don't understand that politics is a long slog, and stayed home on election day, either because they didn't get the pony they thought they were going to get...or even worse...listened to folks posting right here...on DU!...that Dems were no different than Repukes so why should we work to get Dems elected.

Well, I would say, you work to get Dems elected so you don't have to endure all the horrible shit this batch if wingnutty Tea-bagging asshats in charge of Congress are going to foist upon the American people over the next 20-30 years. (yeah, that's 20-30 years...OR LONGER! because we failed to have the Democratic Parties back in an election following a census. Someone please explain to me how "that" act of stupidity and ignorance helped advance this nation...please, tell me how screwing ourselves out of power for a FUCKING GENERATION helped advance our country.

Change doesn't come over night, but with Democrats in control of Congress and the White House, this country was making "slow", but steady steps in the direction of a more Progressive America. Since I think that a more Progressive America will result in a "more perfect union", that means Democrats were upholding the very tenet upon which our country was founded.

Fuck to Hell ANY voter who sat back and allowed this to happen...just FUCK 'EM!!

We're going to be paying for this lack of clarity of purpose for a hundred fucking years.

I'm sorry, but that's what has screwed the Democratic Party. They were fucked-over by the very people they were trying to help...and frankly...that's makes me so pissed I can't even see straight!

"stayed home on election day, either because they didn't get the pony they thought they were going to get"

I wonder why certain people continue to tell this lie, hmmmmmm....

You need to update the lie playbook:

Did liberals really stay home and cause the 2010 rout?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/06/1003805/-Did-liberals-really-stay-home-and-cause-the-2010-rout
“So I went back to the exit polls and the picture I see shows nothing like that. If you are a proponent of this claim, I challenge you for empirical proof that some set of activist liberals "took their ball and went home" or whatever metaphor you prefer to make Obama's leftward critics appear childish and immature. Inside, the evidence I found that shows this just ain't so.”

http://blogforarizona.net/do-progressives-even-sit-out-elections-the-numbers-say-no/
“As you can see, Democrats did slightly better with liberals in 2010 than in 2006. Had there really been a collective we’re-sitting-out-the-election-to-spite-Obama pout going on, then there should have been a sharp drop in the liberal participation percentage. Yet notice the 9% in moderate voter participation and the concomitant 10% increase in conservative turnout. Republicans were pumped for that election but their turnout tends to be higher in midterms anyway. Millions of moderate voters either flipped to conservative or stayed home in 2010.”

“As you can see, all the Democratic groups dropped, but the liberal Democrats dropped least of all”

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/progressive-movement/news/2012/11/08/44348/the-return-of-the-obama-coalition/
Ideology. Liberals were 25 percent of voters in 2012, up from 22 percent in 2008. Since 1992 the percent of liberals among presidential voters has varied in a narrow band between 20 percent and 22 percent, so the figure for this year is quite unusual. Conservatives, at 35 percent, were up one point from the 2008 level, but down a massive 7 points since 2010.
Ideology. Obama received less support in 2012 from all ideology groups, though the drop-offs were not particularly sharp in any group. He received 86 percent support from liberals (89 percent in 2008), 56 percent from moderates (60 percent in 2008), and 17 percent from conservatives (20 percent in 2008).

http://graphics.wsj.com/exit-polls-2014/
Ideology: Liberals were 23% of the vote in 2014, up from 20% in 2010.

http://www.thirdway.org/third-ways-take/the-impact-of-moderate-voters-on-the-2014-midterms
There is no doubt that moderate voters were crucial to the outcome in 2014, and though Democrats won them 53% to 44% overall, it wasn’t sufficient (in fact, they did 2 points worse with moderates than in the 2010 wave).

"All the Democratic groups dropped, but the liberal group dropped the least"

For our reward for such stellar support at the polls we get Mitch McConnell as Senate Majority leader, and a guy who thinks the earth is 6,000 years old in charge of Science, Technology and Environmental Protection policy for the country.

Huzah!!

I guess I would be offended if my post was meant to single out "liberals" who failed to show up at the polls.

You must be right. All the attacks on this President and the Democrats across the left spectrum, from DU to Daily KOS, to Ed Schultz, to Media Matters etc., probably did absolutely nothing to deter voter turn-out.

Thankfully, liberals can console themselves. Instead chanting "USA-USA-USA", we can chant "We're Not Worst-We're Not Worst-We're Not Worst"

You must be right. All the attacks on this President and the Democrats across the left spectrum, from DU to Daily KOS, to Ed Schultz, to Media Matters etc., probably did absolutely nothing to deter voter turn-out.

Strawman much? Any other arguments that I didn't make that you'd like to take a swing at knocking down?

Thankfully, liberals can console themselves. Instead chanting "USA-USA-USA", we can chant "We're Not Worst-We're Not Worst-We're Not Worst"

That's correct, liberals continued to show up at the voting both. Unfortunately the mushy middle conservative democrats didn't. I speculate that they were a little taken aback when the ponies they were promised in 2008 were replaced by extended tax cuts for the rich and a continuance of policies befitting the 1% over the 99%. Funny, they certainly showed up in 2008 when the were promised progressive policies.

they behaved exactly like their peers at Freaker Republic who complain that John Boehner is a "socialist communist lefty".

How "thoughtful" and "pragmatic" of them.

So there were what...58 or so million Americans that voted for the Repuke ticket in 2008? Were Obama and the Democrats supposed to just ignore those Americans?

Keep in mind that it's only a small percentage of the Repuke electorate that fall into the "racist-reptilian" category. Those folks can rightly be ignored, but decent people who just happen to vote Repuke deserve representation too.

Please help me understand. You're not really saying that we are better off with climate deniers, Ayn Rand acolytes and outright racists in charge of Senate and House committees?

Because, that is what we got.

You posit it was because "people who didn't get their ponies", and who "behaved like" people at Free Republic, didn't vote. That is patently false, and I posted the data to prove that. Continuing to make the same claim is nothing but a continued lie.

So there were what...58 or so million Americans that voted for the Repuke ticket in 2008? Were Obama and the Democrats supposed to just ignore those Americans?

The answer is fuck yes. The majority voted for Democrats and the progressive policies the Obama touted during the campaign. But instead of pushing for those policies, Obama did exactly what you are saying he should have done -- begin compromising with the Republicans and in fact starting negotiations on the Republican half of the field. Is it any wonder that the mushy middle that were swayed by Candidate Obama's rhetoric failed to turn up in 2010 after seeing President Obama's actual policies?

As we see in the data from 2010, 2012, and 2104, it wasn't the liberals, i.e., the pony wishers who stopped showing up, it was the moderate middle that Democrats lost. We won them when we promised them progressive policies and less economic inequality in 2008, but we failed to deliver on those promises.

In 2014 we also ran a slate of candidates that did exactly what you are suggesting, tried to move right to appease people that would never vote for them, in one instance to the point of denying they (the candidate) even voted Democratic! The results were completely predictable.

You want to get the climate deniers, Ayn Rand acolytes, and outright racists out of office? Give them a real choice, not candidates running on warmed over Republican ideas. Either way, recognize it is the "pony wishers" that show up to vote for Democrats despite condemnation from people that want the party to continue to move to the right.

party.

Although I am not a pacifist, I am definitely anti-war in the Middle East, yet the party? the president? has deserted us there and sides with the military industrial complex.

We don't all share exactly the same values, and we certainly can't count on our leaders sharing our values. For instance, I want a strong, healthy mixed economy. I am not a pure socialist the way "some" are here, so I am farther to the right than some here. Yet, we are moving farther and farther into a corporate controlled government which doesn't serve any of us here, regardless of our exact place on the spectrum.

Although back then they didn't have a stranglehold on the party. Today they do.

THANKS, Joe and Max, you two assholes.

Their policies had been so completely discredited, as evidenced by the crash of 2008;
A real Democrat would have railed against their POLICIES and passed real Liberal policies.
We would have rolled back all the Faux "free trade" deals that paid companies to outsource to China. We would have prosecuted the Banksters and the War Criminals.
We would have returned to the rule of law.

DINOs prevented that

60% don't vote. When that's the case, KochPublicans win, everyone else loses.

The corporations control our democracy. Of this I have few doubts. There are those who care deeply about open & fair democracy for all people and there are those who invest money & labor into corporate control of our democracy.
As long as we have more of the latter, we will have lost before we begin to fight.

It's the money.

The money is corrupting candidates and politicians, period. It's just more glaring among Republicans...but that's what our party's future looks like, too.

Sid

I certainly am...

of the Budget just passed around Christmas with that HUGE gift to Big banks that Biden and Obama called Dems in the house and Senate to get pass.

of the budget?

thank God for serious donors!

Thus, brooklyn's support for her, and the pooh-pooh that anything else could possibly be done.

Many Dino, it could depend from where one stands, with too far left can be classified as a Dino or the others can be classified as Dino. This argument needs to stop, we do not hold hostage the Democrat platform because all of our wants and wishes does not happen in the first few months of a Democrat president in office. We need to get past our childhood behavior and rise to the occasion of adulthood. Stop this damn bickering, it does not win elections.

in office."

You picked poorly from your provided list of rebuttals. I think you accidently shuffled your stack of papers and picked one from 2009, or possibly grabbed one from the stack of your cubemate that speaks English as a second language. Better luck next time.

In my opinion, this is part of the GOP's plan to destabilize the Democratic Party from within, to the point where the American public become so disenchanted with the current political situation that they stay home instead of voting. This is why we need to push for more politicians that actually will try to serve our interests, rather than the interests of the fortunate few, like so many other politicians.