General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAny religion that can't stand ridicule is not doing what religion ought to do.
That is, bringing peace and accord to the world. And laughing at itself. And forgiving others. And leading by example.
What I've seen of "Charlie Hebdo" is ungracious and needlessly provocative, but whover's lampooned has got to learn to be big.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)A christian guns down schoolchildren, and he's just "a nut with a gun"
A Jew opens fire on worshippers at a mosque, and he's just "a nut with a gun"
A Muslim kills twelve cartoonists, and 1.7 billion people are guilty of murder and need to explain their existence.
Isn't that weird, how somehow, only Muslim lunatics speak for every muslim on earth, while christian and jewish lunatics get to be, well, lunatics, instead of representatives?
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I don't actually see that there.
What never ceases to amaze me is that religiously inspired people commit horrible crimes and for some reason it just is never a problem with religion.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The religion is minding its manners just fine, judging from the fact that the vast, overwhelming majority of those peopel are behaving like anyone else in the world.
But when two,, or perhaps three assholes decide to be "religiously inspired" dickheads, it's never christian's fault. it's never jews' fault. it's never buddhists or Hindu's fault. Their crazies are always just crazy. Their assholes are just assholes. But when it's a Muslim doing it? Suddenly the entire religion and all its people are called to the carpet to answer for it. Top to bottom, all of them are guilty by association.
This standard is only ever applied to muslims. And I think that's amazing.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)The poster attacked a religious ideology that has been used repeatedly to justify mass slaughter. You created a strawman to attack the poster. Good job.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That you happen to agree with the sentiment doesn't change it.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)there will be blowback because of this.
eventually, people will have to stop rioting over Koran burnings, and shitty b-movies, and cartoons.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/egypt-protesters-us-embassy_n_1874247.html
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)and has undoubtedly caused no small number of eye injuries.
REP
(21,691 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)Their covers were pretty clever:
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)There are tons of threads when some Christo-facist tries to do something stupid that devolves into "typical Christians" and "No True Scotsman" debate. Funny enough, I don't see you rushing in to tut-tut the "All Christians/Jews/etc suck" cru that not all Christians are bad. There are plenty of them out there, every day, if you are truly concerned.
Somehow, I'm guessing, you just miss those though, eh?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)In fact I've come to the defense of Jews and Catholics as well on DU. But the hatred of them is not as rampant, nor as widely accepted here on DU as hatred of Muslims. Plus, there's not really a shortage of Catholics and Jews on Du to speak out on their own behalf. Muslim DU'ers tend to be treated worse than black DU'ers, when they show up however. And given the shit black DU'ers put up with? i'm surprised we've retained the... three? Muslim DU'ers we have.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)in this op did the author blame all Muslims. Indeed, where did the OP EVEN MENTION Islam?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The fault of everyone with a y chromosome. And Seth Rogen movies.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)they would just some other excuse. Individual people are responsible for what they do, no matter what excuses they use to try to explain their atrocious crimes. Not all people of any religion think exactly the same or behave the same. Blame the individual for their own actions, because that individual is at fault for their actions. Terrorists are just using excuses. If they didn't use religion as an excuse, they'd use some other excuse, e.g. political, as their excuse.
Most people who believe in Islam aren't out there gunning people down or any of the other hideous crap that extremists do in the name of religion. There are fuckton of people who follow that religion and the vast majority are not out there committing acts of terrorism.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)The OP didn't. Instead the OP pointed out what is fucking obvious: right now there really is something wrong with Islam. Right now Islam is the motivating ideology for mass murder on a daily basis. Pretending that this is not so, or white-washing it by claiming that if it wasn't Islam it would be something else, or by noting that 1.7 Billion -2 Muslims were not involved in today's atrocity of note, is pathetic. The OP did not blame all muslims, the op stated that there is something wrong with Islam as it exists right here and right now. That is manifestly obvious. There is also something wrong with just about every other major religion, especially the Abrahamic ones, but for the most part extremists are not committing mass murder on a daily basis using those religions as their motivating ideology. They could, and they all have in the past.
When Marxism was the motivating ideology for terrorism and totalitarianism was it wrong to suggest that there might be a problem with Marxist ideology?
When Fascism was the motivating ideology for genocide, totalitarianism, and wars of aggression was it wrong to suggest that there might be a problem with Fascism?
Why is it when religion is a motivating ideology for abominable acts some people get all antsy about any suggestion that there might be a problem with religion?
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)And not stand around handwringing and giving a pass to a select few like you do.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Couldn't have said it better.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 7, 2015, 09:52 PM - Edit history (1)
In fact, I would imagine the majority of them are quite outraged at this act of violence.
Unfortunately, too many muslims do support ideas like suppression of free speech, and that is what is very worrisome. People who cannot assimilate into the simplest aspects of western culture - like, democracy, free speech, and women's right to self determination - are a problem. Period.
Notice I said too many muslims, and I don't mean "most." Just "too many."
Response to TexasMommaWithAHat (Reply #9)
Name removed Message auto-removed
CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)Thank you for saying it.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)It is a mistake to move to a country and expect the host country to change its core values for you and your children.
Sure, bring some of your culture with you. Your religion. Your food. Add to the wonderful mix that we already have. But don't expect that that the people who have allowed you to move to their country will give up their freedoms for you or that they will support you in attempting to change their culture. If I have to walk through your neighborhood to get somewhere I will NOT wear a burka, and I shouldn't feel unsafe if I'm not wearing one.
And I do realize that many are not immigrants and were born in France, but my rant applies to them, as well.
CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)But they'll be so glad to know you approve of them bringing their food.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Have misread the order of posts and who was responding to whom.
But the reality is that some do want France to change. Or is that not what you get out of this massacre? "Shut up, give up your free speech, or we will kill you."
So, they're just fine with satire against the prophet?
still_one
(92,219 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"Gosh, I could mean anything, tee hee!" - that fig leaf is kind of transparent, you know.
still_one
(92,219 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)If someone robs a bank who happens to be a scientologist, unless their motivation for doing so directly relates to the belief system, it's not relevant.
if you are talking about murders done BY religious fundamentalists for reasons OF religious fundamentalism, it is facile to demand that religious fundamentalism not be part of the discussion.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)keep stretching to defend miserable bigotry, Warren.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)At least not this week.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Did you forget the Christian terrorist, Anders Breivik?
What do people call many of the extremist Jewish settlers in the West Bank?
And those are just two examples.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)and the sooner the better.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)as long as humans seek to share their spiritual existence.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Religion has had thousands of years to reshape social norms, and make basic criticism, like saying "that deity isn't real" to be regarded by society as horrible obscenity.
Islam these days is especially good at that. Try being an atheist in Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Just saying "I don't believe in Allah" gets you thrown in prison, or gets your head chopped off.
Of course, Christianity and Judaism have done more than their share. Even if they don't saw your head off, you still get ostracized, censured, condemned just for saying that you don't believe. And if you dare to make fun of the religion, hoo boy...
I'm with Christopher Hitchens. Religion poisons everything. With the Charlie Hebdo attack, it was the poison equivalent of a nerve gas attack on a subway. But even moderate religion is poisonous, but on the level of smoking a pack a day, or driving a car on leaded gasoline. Religion breeds intolerance, irrationality and stupidity.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)This shit in Paris certainly has opened the bigotry floodgates in GD.
CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)You can condemn the crime without making vaguely sinister insinuations about well over a billion people whose religious faith does NOT teach them to go out and murder people.
Or what is the point of your OP?
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)that a spiritual belief system, in its maturity, ought to have found its way to tolerance and forgiveness. If it's true for individuals, why not for groups?
CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)You're trying to make this about Islam instead of the small number of people who actually committed the crime.
Within any group you can find individuals who commit horrific acts. Only with Muslims has it become acceptable to smear the whole group based on the actions of a few.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)between Islamic people and a secular Europe, not to mention other spots and events around the world. If the sort of disrespectful "humor" as distributed by Charlie Hebdo is to be allowed to continue, then ANY religious group in these sights will have to forgive - or kill the messenger.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)a few violent fundamentalists.
Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)If your religion tells you that God wants someone dead but doesn't feel like killing them Himself then your religion sucks at religion. John Fugelsang
(@JohnFugelsang) January 8, 2015
https://twitter.com/JohnFugelsang/status/553014834678489088
Coventina
(27,121 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Clearly there is very little lampooning done in the Muslim world itself. Or do we simply miss out on that?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)doesn't mix well with extreme devotion. Consider Judaism, which in this country has become quite secular; and it's arguably the wellspring of American humor and show business. Islam, another great monotheistic religion (also from the Middle Eastern desert, but hundreds of years younger), enjoys a five-a-day prayer and rigorous social constraints, but not so many chuckles.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)What a stupid thread.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The Japanese paused as though in deep thought and then slowly shook his head. "I think we don't have ideology," he said. "We don't have theology. We dance."
This is the essence of true religion.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Did you even bother to read any authoritative texts of any of the major religions?
WhiteAndNerdy
(365 posts)I think a religion should not offer cut-and-dried answers so much as help people ask the right questions and maybe provide a "working hypothesis" to help them make sense of the world and to provide a foundation for growth. A religion that can't tolerate criticism is obviously not going to promote questioning, speculation, diversity of opinion, or even personal growth.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)WhiteAndNerdy
(365 posts)You seem to think all religions function like the Big Three Abrahamic traditions -- they don't. You need to read more.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)were constructed specifically as a counter to religions of old.
As far as I'm aware of, even religions such as Buddhism, Daoism, Shinto, and Jain claim provide some cut and dried answers, they may allow for more deviation, but not as much as many people imagine. Hinduism is probably the only one that does belong on your list, but mostly because its nearly a misnomer to call it a "religion", perhaps religious grouping, with some similar rituals and shared culture is better. Hindus can be atheist, hard polytheist, soft polytheist, pantheist, parantheist, and/or monotheist and still be Hindu.
Even then you have Hindu nationalists who burn Muslim neighborhoods, and murder Muslims in India.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)critically think and question and think for themselves. It is the fundamentalists that insist people follow without question.
WhiteAndNerdy
(365 posts)It's obvious that not all religions are equally open to change; some emphasize adherence to established tradition and law to a much greater degree than others. Christianity has also, historically, been resistant to change, although that has begun to change in recent decades. You're not seriously denying that some cultures are more conservative (that is, resistant to change) than others, are you?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)fighting for greater freedom. Just because the fundamentalists throw hissy fits does not mean that people are not fighting for change. Look at the young women in Afghanistan. It is true that the fundamentalists are causing great damage to the people there. But the people themselves are fighting for change. The girls are risking being killed to go to school. It is the fundamentalists that are resistant to change, not the people.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It's what people do.