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DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 02:12 AM Jan 2015

Charlie:let'sdiscuss the image that supposedly tipped the scales

Fear not, I will not post it, as I know that will shut minds off immediately.

The image that suppsoedly set it off shows the Prophet Muhammad,about to be executed by a member of Isis. He says "don't you realize I am the prophet, which only makes the would be beheader angrier. The point is that if Muhammad were around,isis would kill him.

Now, t is not hard to imagine that someone who said "the ink of the scholar is worth more than the blood of the martyr" would find hismelf in that sort of trouble.

Someone who says "Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever has not kindness has not faith." Might also get in trouble.

and here is a dozzy with isis:

"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

or

"Destroying Kabaa stone by stone, is less evil than killing a single Muslim... "

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Muhammad

Now, there will be two types of people angry: one of which is the type that has every nasty part of the quran memorized, and is yelling "No true scotsman, religion is still evil!, Sam Harris and Dick Dawkins say so!" The other is the one that says "Those assholes at Charlie brought this on themselves!" which frankly, is just a fancy version of "You should not have worn that dress!"

My point is neither to exalt not praise Charlie, but to show that there are points that we ignore when we all ball our fists, and play "gotcha." Truth be told, this piece, awful as it is, could have promoted thought, but it won;t , because peopel of allsorts have an agenda, whether it is bogotry, or simply some verison of "civility" that ensures no one says anything critical.


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Charlie:let'sdiscuss the image that supposedly tipped the scales (Original Post) DonCoquixote Jan 2015 OP
Like Dostoevsky wrote not too long ago Recursion Jan 2015 #1
I liked the previous chapter of The Brothers Karamazov better... AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #2
Ivan, the first commissar (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #3
kudos DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #5
A liberal arts degree occasionally has its advantages Recursion Jan 2015 #7
Well said Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #4
a signature worthy quote, which explains DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #6

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
2. I liked the previous chapter of The Brothers Karamazov better...
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 02:42 AM
Jan 2015
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28054/28054-h/28054-h.html#toc83

Ivan for a minute was silent, his face became all at once very sad.

But what pulls me up here is that I can't accept that harmony. And while I am on earth, I make haste to take my own measures. You see, Alyosha, perhaps it really may happen that if I live to that moment, or rise again to see it, I, too, perhaps, may cry aloud with the rest, looking at the mother embracing the child's torturer, ‘Thou art just, O Lord!’ but I don't want to cry aloud then. While there is still time, I hasten to protect myself, and so I renounce the higher harmony altogether. It's not worth the tears of that one tortured child who beat itself on the breast with its little fist and prayed in its stinking outhouse, with its unexpiated tears to ‘dear, kind God’! It's not worth it, because those tears are unatoned for. They must be atoned for, or there can be no harmony. But how? How are you going to atone for them? Is it possible? By their being avenged? But what do I care for avenging them? What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don't want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price. I don't want the mother to embrace the oppressor who threw her son to the dogs! She dare not forgive him! Let her forgive him for herself, if she will, let her forgive the torturer for the immeasurable suffering of her mother's heart. But the sufferings of her tortured child she has no right to forgive; she dare not forgive the torturer, even if the child were to forgive him! And if that is so, if they dare not forgive, what becomes of harmony? Is there in the whole world a being who would have the right to forgive and could forgive? I don't want harmony. From love for humanity I don't want it. I would rather be left with the unavenged suffering. I would rather remain with my unavenged suffering and unsatisfied indignation, even if I were wrong. Besides, too high a price is asked for harmony; it's beyond our means to pay so much to enter on it. And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return Him the ticket.”

“That's rebellion,” murmured Alyosha, looking down.

“Rebellion? I am sorry you call it that,” said Ivan earnestly. “One can hardly live in rebellion, and I want to live. Tell me yourself, I challenge you—answer. Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature—that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance—and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell the truth.”

“No, I wouldn't consent,” said Alyosha softly.

“And can you admit the idea that men for whom you are building it would agree to accept their happiness on the foundation of the unexpiated blood of a little victim? And accepting it would remain happy for ever?”

“No, I can't admit it. Brother,”



The story then segues into The Grant Inquisitor.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
6. a signature worthy quote, which explains
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 08:56 AM
Jan 2015

My agnostic take on God and most other isms.

"too high a price is asked for harmony; it's beyond our means to pay so much to enter on it. And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return Him the ticket.”

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