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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 08:09 AM Jan 2015

Charlie Hebdo Is Heroic and Racist

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/01/charlie_hebdo_the_french_satirical_magazine_is_heroic_it_is_also_racist.html


At a memorial in New York City’s Union Square, a Charlie Hebdo cover that reads “Love is stronger than hate.”

The editors and cartoonists murdered in yesterday’s attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo are now martyrs for the cause of free speech. Threatened with death for publishing drawings of the prophet Mohammed meant to mock Islamic radicals, they refused to censor themselves, and so were gunned down. They died bravely for an ideal we all treasure.

But their work featuring Mohammed could be sophomoric and racist. Not all of it; a cover image of the prophet about to be beheaded by a witless ISIS thug was trenchant commentary on how little Islamic radicalism has to do with the religion itself. But often, the cartoonists simply rendered Islam’s founder as a hook-nosed wretch straight out of Edward Said’s nightmares, seemingly for no purpose beyond antagonizing Muslims who, rightly or wrongly, believe that depicting Mohammed at all is blasphemous.

This, in a country where Muslims are a poor and harassed minority, maligned by a growing nationalist movement that has used liberal values like secularism and free speech to cloak garden-variety xenophobia. France is the place, remember, where the concept of free expression has failed to stop politicians from banning headscarves and burqas. Charlie Hebdo may claim to be a satirical, equal-opportunity offender. But there’s good reason critics have compared it to “a white power mag.” As Jacob Canfield wrote in an eloquent post at the Hooded Utilitarian, “White men punching down is not a recipe for good satire.”

So Charlie Hebdo’s work was both courageous and often vile. We should be able to keep both of these realities in our minds at once, but it seems like we can’t.
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Charlie Hebdo Is Heroic and Racist (Original Post) xchrom Jan 2015 OP
I disagree about the 'courageous' or 'heroic' part. randome Jan 2015 #1
I think the fact that they continued publishing after an earlier firebomb attack in 2011 Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #2
PROTESTERS around the West chanted “Je suis Charlie” — I am Charlie. They lie. Michael James Cobb Jan 2015 #3
"the way the Left routinely mocks Christianity" fishwax Jan 2015 #50
"the way the Left routinely mocks Christianity" - WTF? Did you just join the wrong website? djean111 Jan 2015 #76
Making fun of Islam is not racist. Coventina Jan 2015 #4
Depicting a black French politician as a monkey sure is. LeftyMom Jan 2015 #5
So what? Michael James Cobb Jan 2015 #6
They have a right to be disgusting and bigoted. I have a right to say they're bigots. LeftyMom Jan 2015 #8
And just like anyone of any other religion, christx30 Jan 2015 #53
I'd like to see those. Hadn't seen nor heard of them. Coventina Jan 2015 #9
Here the one about the kidnapped Nigerian women jamzrockz Jan 2015 #12
Thanks for the links. After looking at it for myself I don't find it racist at all. In fact, they Coventina Jan 2015 #13
That makes sense now. The pregnant girl thing. Thanks. bravenak Jan 2015 #26
someone on facebook said Charlie is like Stephen Colbert m-lekktor Jan 2015 #51
Are you French? If not, chances are you won't get it. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #52
You don't find those 'welfare queen drawings' racist? brush Jan 2015 #59
No, I don't. Besides which, the whole point of the cartoon is to lambaste those who buy into the Coventina Jan 2015 #70
That kind of ugly, snaggle-toothed depiction is racist brush Jan 2015 #74
OK, for the sake of argument, let's say the caricatures are racist. Coventina Jan 2015 #75
I just feel "Charlie Hebdo" could do what they do without the racist images . . . brush Jan 2015 #77
It's fine to say it's not your cup of tea. Satire is often ugly, because it exposes ugliness. Coventina Jan 2015 #79
Maybe their philosophy isn't, but some of those images . . . brush Jan 2015 #80
Out of context Nevernose Jan 2015 #16
These links are excellent for a better understanding the context of the cartoons nt Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #38
Bush is regularly depicted as a monkey (and nicknamed "chimp") on DU and elsewhere oberliner Jan 2015 #17
Depicting black people as unevolved or ape-like has a historical context. LeftyMom Jan 2015 #36
The woman in question is a huge supporter of the magazine oberliner Jan 2015 #37
You're missing the context. The French would get these and they aren't bigoted or racist riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #21
Thank you! Coventina Jan 2015 #22
Its discouraging how many DUers are failing to see the context riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #23
I've done my bit. Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #30
The French have a huge racial problem themselves . . . brush Jan 2015 #78
Also the idea jamzrockz Jan 2015 #7
What is offensive is a movable feast. Michael James Cobb Jan 2015 #10
True but I think jamzrockz Jan 2015 #11
From my point of view, religious people who spout anti gay bullshit are offensive and they seem to Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #20
You are right. Why do the religious get a smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #33
+1000. closeupready Jan 2015 #25
Insulting a religion or a religious figure is not racist, and some on DU have also claimed Charlie Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #14
thank you. i am so fucking SICK of people implying religion is above critcism and to criticize m-lekktor Jan 2015 #49
Not racist, definitely heroic oberliner Jan 2015 #15
Obscene? Derogatory? Maybe...not racist brooklynite Jan 2015 #18
The vast majority of Muslims in France are North African or trace their KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #31
k&r for this line "We should be able to keep both of these realities in our minds at once, but it... uppityperson Jan 2015 #19
Indeed! arcane1 Jan 2015 #27
Let's consider the premise that France has the right to preserve the values of the French Revolution Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #24
Thanks for this. But I hope you have your Kevlar undies on. Coventina Jan 2015 #28
Thanks for your appreciation and the Kevlar full body armor is in place! Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #29
The vast, vast majority of French citizens support those laws, including Muslims riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #34
Exactly. Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #35
Thank you. 840high Jan 2015 #66
You're very welcome Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #68
They aren't racist. DemocraticWing Jan 2015 #32
"Islam" and "Muslim" are not races. "Arab" is not a race, either--it is an ethnicity. MADem Jan 2015 #63
Definitely not heroic CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #39
Isn't Ramadan Egyptian? In other words he isn't French riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #40
He's actually Swiss, of Egyptian origin. So effing what?? CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #41
These cartoons have a French context that we do not understand riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #43
So "we" don't understand, but YOU do? CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #46
I'm Irish living on IL. Yes. I do get most of them riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #47
So you're not French then CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #54
Nope. Which means I know "out of context" implicitly riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #56
No cwydro Jan 2015 #42
Blasphemy vs Bigotry WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2015 #44
Here's the Dr.Mahmood Mamdani quote MHP aired on her show. AllenVanAllen Jan 2015 #57
:) Thanks! I thought it was very significant. Glad you found it. WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2015 #58
you're welcome AllenVanAllen Jan 2015 #67
Sorry. But FGM and child marriage and child exploitation are not immune from critIcism riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #60
So ridiculous oberliner Jan 2015 #62
Uhm, are we on the same side?! Read my post again? Nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #64
So DUers attacking the ideology of Republicanism would be bigotry? oberliner Jan 2015 #61
So basically you have to convert to Islam in order to have standing to criticize the religion? Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #69
As I stated upthread: crock of bull. Coventina Jan 2015 #72
I love MHP, but that attitude is a crock of bull. Coventina Jan 2015 #71
K & R Rhinodawg Jan 2015 #45
I believe in free speech... pokerfan Jan 2015 #48
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #55
It is possible to be both Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #65
CHARLIE HEBDO is an equal-opportunity offender... Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #73
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
1. I disagree about the 'courageous' or 'heroic' part.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 08:20 AM
Jan 2015

Is Seth McFarlane 'courageous'?

The writers at Charlie Hebdo are stupid and sophomoric. And they did not deserve to die.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

Denzil_DC

(7,244 posts)
2. I think the fact that they continued publishing after an earlier firebomb attack in 2011
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 08:56 AM
Jan 2015

and numerous death threats could probably be classed as courageous.

But I agree with the point quoted in the OP: “White men punching down is not a recipe for good satire.”

3. PROTESTERS around the West chanted “Je suis Charlie” — I am Charlie. They lie.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 12:25 PM
Jan 2015
Unlike most politicians, journalists, lawyers and other members of our ruling classes, this fearless magazine dared to mock Islam in the way the Left routinely mocks Christianity. Unlike much of our ruling class, it refused to sell out our freedom to speak.

Its greatest sin — to the Islamists — was to republish the infamous cartoons of Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten which mocked Mohammed, and then to publish even more of its own, including one showing the Muslim prophet naked.

Are we really all Charlie? No, no and shamefully no.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/are-we-really-all-charlie-no-no-and-shamefully-no/story-fni0ffxg-1227180871950?nk=5ebd99ed00a5ad333213b9582b297e7d

Real easy to stand up and be counted when it's safe.
 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
76. "the way the Left routinely mocks Christianity" - WTF? Did you just join the wrong website?
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:25 AM
Jan 2015

That looks like a pathetic attempt to further demonize the actual Left from what used to BE the Left, before the Third Way sank its fangs into it.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
5. Depicting a black French politician as a monkey sure is.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:24 PM
Jan 2015

So is drawing the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram as welfare mothers screaming for their checks.

Charlie Hebdo did both, and there are a lot if other examples.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
53. And just like anyone of any other religion,
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:33 PM
Jan 2015

they have the right to ignore it, write a letter to the editor, or organize a protest. They don't have the right to firebomb an office or shoot up the place. The minute they resort to those tactics to shut up the cartoonists, they lose all legitimacy, and nothing they feel or say matters in the least.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
13. Thanks for the links. After looking at it for myself I don't find it racist at all. In fact, they
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 03:10 PM
Jan 2015

are pointing fingers at racist attitudes.

In the minds of right-wingers, the kidnapped girls are "welfare queens" because as slaves they don't have to take responsibility for their position or their offspring. It's the sick conflation of poverty, gender, and class discrimination that Charlie is poking fun at.

With the Marie Le Pen monkey parody, it is again turning the tables of their racist ideology against them. Made clear by using the National Front's symbol right beside the figure.

I think it's pretty obvious (if you look at the cultural context of these images, which the French would) that these images are decrying racism and bigotry.

JE SUIS CHARLIE!!

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
51. someone on facebook said Charlie is like Stephen Colbert
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:15 PM
Jan 2015

and people who yell racism don't "get it" like many thought Stephen Colbert was an actual conservative. I personally haven't read any Charlie so i can't pick a side yet. Others say that depiction of Charlie is a crock of shit. This discussion where leftists take either side like here on DU is going on everywhere. I am facebook "friends" with Doug Henwood of the Nation and there is a huge thread on his page about this, people taking either side, YES charlie is racist or NO charlie isn't.. i find it interesting.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
52. Are you French? If not, chances are you won't get it.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:22 PM
Jan 2015

they used cultural references we don't understand when they drew their cartoons.

Satire without context of the culture means we are certainly wrong in our interpretation.

Assuming your interpretation is correct only makes you an ugly American.

brush

(53,792 posts)
59. You don't find those 'welfare queen drawings' racist?
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 11:26 PM
Jan 2015

They, imo, are disgusting and racist as it gets.

How the hell do you depict 12 and 14-year-olds as butt ugly, welfare queens and it not enter your mind that it might be offensive to black people, then say "oh, it's satire"? Perhaps some editing was in order before printing that cover. I'm not saying anyone should have been shot over it though.

A good rule of thumb before declaring that cartoon not racist, think about the reaction that would get if printed here in this country where blacks have a history of protesting racist crap.

FYI, France has a huge racial problem itself, which of course they deny — those that are not white are shunted out to the distance suburbs with little opportunity or avenue to improve their lot — and it's been going on for generations.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
70. No, I don't. Besides which, the whole point of the cartoon is to lambaste those who buy into the
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:08 AM
Jan 2015

notion that "welfare queens" even exist!

Charlie was pointing out that people heartless enough to think that the very poor should have their benefits cut (because the poor have it soooo easy) would project those same judgmental, ugly attitudes onto the young rape victims depicted.

brush

(53,792 posts)
74. That kind of ugly, snaggle-toothed depiction is racist
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:56 AM
Jan 2015

Last edited Mon Jan 12, 2015, 04:26 PM - Edit history (5)

That cover is very reminiscent of hateful, racist black memorabilia produced in this country in the past. Here are a couple of links for you to look at:

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=racist+black+memorabilia+photos&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

http://abhmuseum.org/2012/05/hateful-things-an-exhibit-from-the-jim-crow-museum-of-racist-memorabilia/

Scroll down on the first one for disgusting images like the ones on that cover.

I suggest in the future that you might want to consult a black person before you pronounce something as not racist towards blacks.

And FYI, on the progressive satellite radio "Charlie Hebdo" is depicted as being akin to Fox News in Paris as it targets and ridicules the downtrodden (people of color — African immigrants, Muslim immigrants, Jews, etc.). Satire usually works when it "punches up", not down as "Charlie Hebdo" does.

They still didn't deserve to be attacked like they were though.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
75. OK, for the sake of argument, let's say the caricatures are racist.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:04 AM
Jan 2015

The point of the cartoon was STILL to lampoon those who see the world that way - in a bigoted fashion that would think of rape victims as "entitled."

And, no, Charlie Hebdo is left-wing and anti-racist.

Which progressive satellite radio person is saying it's Paris' Fox News?

(Sorry it takes me so long to reply, I'm very busy with work and have very little DU time).

brush

(53,792 posts)
77. I just feel "Charlie Hebdo" could do what they do without the racist images . . .
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:40 AM
Jan 2015

of not just blacks but Muslims and others just as well without the negativity which is why many are taking a second look at their agenda. They have to know the impact of those images, and that they have the power to negate their alleged progressive message. Those are not stupid people running that magazine, they have to know that.

I listen to Thom Hartman, Micheangelo Senorele [sic], and Marc Thompson and they've all had on guests and discussed with them "Charlie Hebdo" as seeming to 'punch down" instead of up with their satire, kind of the powerful ridiculing the powerless.

And again, of course they shouldn't be attacked because of it.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
79. It's fine to say it's not your cup of tea. Satire is often ugly, because it exposes ugliness.
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 09:53 AM
Jan 2015

The classic example being Swift's "A Modest Proposal" in which he seemingly quite seriously advocates butchering children for their meat.

But, to call Charlie Hebdo racist is like calling Swift a cannibal. It just simply isn't true.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
16. Out of context
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 03:58 PM
Jan 2015

The caption there was conflating two then-current news stories. It was a timely pun that is only racist if one is cherry picking things to be offended at, out of context.

The covers of Charlie both the week before AND the week after were shots at Le Pen, the leader of the anti-immigrant movement in France.

Charlie Hebdo has a long, proud tradition of being pro-immigrant, far-left extremists (more to the left of many DUers). Most of the "racist" allegations are coming from foreigners taking it out of context or seeking to blame the victims.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
17. Bush is regularly depicted as a monkey (and nicknamed "chimp") on DU and elsewhere
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 03:59 PM
Jan 2015

And regarding the Boko Haram cartoon:

Charlie Hebdo covers often combined two unrelated stories to make a satirical point. In the context of the magazine's leftist politics, this seems to be about spoofing not Nigerian trafficking victims, but French welfare critics, who have argued that France should cut welfare programs to prevent immigrant women from exploiting them. The cover, in this view, seems to say, "Hey, welfare critics, you're so heartless that you probably think that even Nigerian sexual slavery victims are money-grubbing 'welfare queens.'"

http://www.vox.com/cards/charlie-hebdo-attack/charlie-hebdo-cartoons-covers

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
36. Depicting black people as unevolved or ape-like has a historical context.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 06:56 PM
Jan 2015

So does depicting black women and girls as fecund welfare moochers.

That's not exactly breaking news.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
37. The woman in question is a huge supporter of the magazine
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 07:04 PM
Jan 2015

And has been for decades.

I am sure she appreciates that you were offended on her behalf.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
21. You're missing the context. The French would get these and they aren't bigoted or racist
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:05 PM
Jan 2015

Conventina did a good job explaining them in their proper context.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
23. Its discouraging how many DUers are failing to see the context
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:21 PM
Jan 2015

They're judging the cartoons from their own perspective, not the French perspective. I've explained a couple on other threads but nobody appears to want to change their minds about them.

Its also demonstrating a disappointing lack of knowledge about global affairs...

I keep trying to break through the DU truism (that's now grown calcified) that the cartoons are racist but its a minority position. And I'm not on here enough to change anything.

Alas.

But props to you for trying!

brush

(53,792 posts)
78. The French have a huge racial problem themselves . . .
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:12 AM
Jan 2015

with blacks, Roma, Muslims and others ghettoized in outer, outer suburbs with very little opportunity to improve their lives, so these negative images are more about the powerful punching down at the powerless.

And I know all about the French arguing that everyone in France is French and that there is no racism, but that's just not the reality that generation after generation of non-whites have found.

Lack of opportunity in education and employment and integration into society is glaring so the pretense that if you've not "French" you don't get it should probably read, if you're not "French" French you don't get it.

 

jamzrockz

(1,333 posts)
7. Also the idea
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:47 PM
Jan 2015

that they were equal opportunity offenders is a lie. They fired a reporter over what they deemed to be anti-semitism.


Maurice Sinet, 80, who works under the pen name Sine, faces charges of "inciting racial hatred" for a column he wrote last July in the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo. The piece sparked a summer slanging match among the Parisian intelligentsia and ended in his dismissal from the magazine.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/4351672/French-cartoonist-Sine-on-trial-on-charges-of-anti-Semitism-over-Sarkozy-jibe.html

Sad that some nut attacked them but I cannot get myself to sympathize with people who purposely offend minority or even any group for that matter just because they can. I will not march in their support and I am definitely no Charlie.
10. What is offensive is a movable feast.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 02:15 PM
Jan 2015

I sympathize with people who were murdered for their words. Hurt feelings come in a distant second. The point is that something will be deeply offensive to someone and we cannot afford to worry about feelings. Look at where it has gotten to in the US with nonsense about "micro-aggression" and so on.

 

jamzrockz

(1,333 posts)
11. True but I think
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 02:52 PM
Jan 2015

This case is different, the journalists involved knew they were being offensive and in fact wanted to offend people. Maybe they want to desensitize the population so they have thicker skin. I dunno why they did what they did but to me it seems like they were being offensive solely because they can.

You know, it would be one thing if it was govt agencies or the courts coming after them. That would actually get me to care a little but seeing as it the 3 a**holes coming after them, I just can't be bothered to care. I also ask myself if I would be saying "I am Charlie" if their target had been poor, pregnant women suffering from cancer or even if it was something just personally offensive to me as them making fun of my mum and the answer is no. If your life revolves around being offensive and being a dick to people not like you then please don't expect me to sympathize with you when the offended party comes around to hurt you.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
20. From my point of view, religious people who spout anti gay bullshit are offensive and they seem to
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:02 PM
Jan 2015

do it intentionally, constantly and so regularly that such hate speech seems to be a central aspect of Christianity and Islam. Both faiths seem to revolve around contempt for others, gay people, maybe Jews for some Christians African Americans....it's all very offensive. Denigrating.
Perhaps religious folks should ponder the outcomes of their offensive behavior toward others?

And I wonder how you explain away the victims who were not involve in the magazine? Can't be bother to care about them either?

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
33. You are right. Why do the religious get a
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 06:19 PM
Jan 2015

pass for insulting and denigrating those who do not pass their acid test? It seems to be very one sided. They can be offensive, but others can only dare offend them at their peril.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
14. Insulting a religion or a religious figure is not racist, and some on DU have also claimed Charlie
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 03:51 PM
Jan 2015

was homophobic which is also a shitty lie, as they were champions of equality, anti racists, and critics of both homophobes and racists. They stood with my people against shitty, bigoted, ignorant religious idiots, and I thank them for it. Those who slander them with lies and seek to limit the rights of artists to speak out while they protect the rights of bigoted clergy to spew venomous hate against anyone they wish to attack can go fuck themselves.

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
49. thank you. i am so fucking SICK of people implying religion is above critcism and to criticize
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:05 PM
Jan 2015

is being bigoted. I am sure many here who are howling about the bigoted cartoonists are fucking POPE apologists!

brooklynite

(94,604 posts)
18. Obscene? Derogatory? Maybe...not racist
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:00 PM
Jan 2015

Islam is a world-encompassing religion of Arabs, Africans, central and south Asians and even some caucasians.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
31. The vast majority of Muslims in France are North African or trace their
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 05:37 PM
Jan 2015

lineage to North Africa.

Several scholars consider Islamophobia as a form of racism. A 2007 article in Journal of Sociology defines Islamophobia as anti-Muslim racism and a continuation of anti-Asian and anti-Arab racism. Similarly, John Denham has drawn parallels between modern Islamophobia and the antisemitism of the 1930s, so have Maud Olofsson, and Jan Hjärpe, among others.

Others have questioned the supposed relationship between Islamophobia and racism. Jocelyne Cesari writes that "academics are still debating the legitimacy of the term and questioning how it differs from other terms such as racism, anti-Islamism, anti-Muslimness, and anti-Semitism." Erdenir finds that "there is no consensus on the scope and content of the term and its relationship with concepts such as racism ...” and Shryock, reviewing the use of the term across national boundaries, comes to the same conclusion. On occasion race does come into play. Diane Frost defines Islamophobia as anti-Muslim feeling and violence based on “race” and/or religion. Islamophobia may also target people who have Muslim names, or have a look that is associated with Muslims. According to Alan Johnson, Islamophobia sometimes can be nothing more than xenophobia or racism "wrapped in religious terms."

The European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) defines Islamophobia as the fear of or prejudiced viewpoint towards Islam, Muslims and matters pertaining to them (ECRI 2006). Whether it takes the shape of daily forms of racism and discrimination or more violent forms, Islamophobia is a violation of human rights and a threat to social cohesion". It has also been defined as "fear of Muslims and Islam; rejection of the Muslim religion; or a form of differentialist racism" (Helbling 2011).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#Racism


Just as anti-Semitism is now considered a form of racism (despite Judaism's multi-racial demographics), so too Islamophobia is increasingly conceived of as a form of racism, semantic sophistry notwithstanding.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
19. k&r for this line "We should be able to keep both of these realities in our minds at once, but it...
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:01 PM
Jan 2015

"We should be able to keep both of these realities in our minds at once, but it seems like we can’t."

Pooka Fey

(3,496 posts)
24. Let's consider the premise that France has the right to preserve the values of the French Revolution
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:25 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Sun Jan 11, 2015, 05:11 PM - Edit history (2)

Which among other things enshrines "Laicité" meaning that, because of the bloody wars of religion between Catholics and Protestants during their history, the Republic created after the 1789 French Revolution codified into the government the principle of "Laicité". Citizens may practice whatever religion they choose, but obvious displays of religious appearance are blocked from the public sphere - meaning if you work in the government, you can't show obvious signs of your religious affiliation while at work.

So a public schoolteacher cannot wear a cross or a star of David while exercising her duties, and a schoolchild profiting from her free public education cannot wear a Muslim head scarf WHILE AT SCHOOL.

The Burka is illegal because, in France, women MUST SHOW their faces, because of the principal of "Egalité". There is no equality in a society where some female citizens must cover their faces and bodies due to Sharia law, based on the belief that women are such provocative creatures, they must be hidden from view.

The burka therefore cannot be allowed anywhere, if the society is to function according to the Republic. The French Burka law was challenged in the EU courts and was held up. In France and in the EU, the right of the society to function in accord with its principals outweighs the individual's right to do whatever the hell they want. Unlike in the USA.

France isn't an American colony, and they don't need to follow American ideals about how the world should work. France doesn't need to follow Sharia Law, or allow Muslim women to wear Burkas. This is neither "rascist" nor "harassment". The French are a FREE people who have the right to preserve their Republic. Much blood was spilled for them to earn it.

The ignorance shown by the author of this newspaper article just eats me up. I've had it with the "Poor French Muslims" angle I've been seeing everywhere in the USA press.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
28. Thanks for this. But I hope you have your Kevlar undies on.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 05:06 PM
Jan 2015

For some, promoting secularism is somehow "racist".

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
34. The vast, vast majority of French citizens support those laws, including Muslims
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 06:31 PM
Jan 2015

(iirc, it's almost 90% of the French Muslim population) also embrace the laws against religious symbols and face covering because they see it as a bulwark against extremism as well.

France is not the US. They have a very different culture that has centuries of dark satire skewering the religious and power brokers, stemming from their revolution, and they also take public secularism extremely seriously.

Pooka Fey

(3,496 posts)
35. Exactly.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 06:47 PM
Jan 2015

Everything about France that the American press has been slagging since this tragedy occurred has very clear historical reasons for being so.

However American "journalists" go about throwing around the "racism" meme and the "harassment of the poor French Muslims" meme without bothering to try and figure out why a sovereign foreign country, only about 1,500 years older than the USA, has a different idea about how to do things.

DemocraticWing

(1,290 posts)
32. They aren't racist.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 05:41 PM
Jan 2015

Understanding their commentary in context has proven this over and over again. It's distressing to see people ignorant of how the French view Charlie Hebdo bending over to defend the violent acts of Al-Qaeda.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
63. "Islam" and "Muslim" are not races. "Arab" is not a race, either--it is an ethnicity.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 11:46 PM
Jan 2015

Arabs come in all colors of the rainbow (just look at the three dead murderers, for example)--they're united by language and culture (but not religion, necessarily--though many are Muslims, many are also Christians and other faiths).

That said, the Charlie Hebdo cartoons are designed to be offensive. Not just a little offensive--a LOT offensive.

That is what they're going for--they're not drawn up to be cute, they want to push buttons. They do it rather artfully, too, they slice right to the heart of an issue.

Now, the usual caveats: Does that make it "OK" for the response to the cartoons to be violent? Of course not. If the response is violent, is saying "That's not a surprise" somehow "victim blaming?" No, that's not accurate either--there are people out there, and we've seen them in action down the years, who do respond violently to situations like these. Pretending that those who prefer slaughter to a strongly worded letter are somehow going to rein it in because that's the decent thing to do isn't going to happen in the real world--the only way to stop that kind of thing is with policing--INTRUSIVE policing, which people have a problem with, for other reasons.

You can trot out the usual garbled versions of the liberty and security/Ben Franklin quotes, but I imagine the families of those dead cartoonists would have preferred a bit more security, at least when it came to protecting their loved ones.

And that's a debate for another day...

CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
39. Definitely not heroic
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jan 2015

I'm reminded of this exchange which took place on last Thursday's Democracy Now, between Art Spiegelman and Tariq Ramadan:

TARIQ RAMADAN: We are talking here about a policy that was said by Charlie Hebdo over the last years that is mainly targeting the Muslims. My point here is, once again, I’m not—

ART SPIEGELMAN: But why?

TARIQ RAMADAN: I’m not—

ART SPIEGELMAN: Why were they targeting Muslims? Do you think it’s—

TARIQ RAMADAN: I’m not—you know why? You know what? You know why? It’s mainly a question of money. They went bankrupt, and you know this. They went bankrupt over the last two years. And what they did with this controversy is that Islam today and to target Muslims is making money. It has nothing to do with courage. It has to do with making money and targeting the marginalized people in the society.

The point for me now is just to come with you, as somebody who is involved in this, and to come with the principles that you are making now, and to come and to say, look, now, in the United States of America as well as in the West, everywhere, we should be able to target the people the same way and then to find a way to talk to one another in a responsible way, not by throwing on each other our rights, but coming together with our duties, our responsibilities to live together.

I think that what you are saying now could be dangerous if you are not coming to the facts, but just with the impression that their past is similar to the present. Charlie Hebdo is not the satirical magazine of the past. It is now ideologically oriented. And Philippe Val, who was a leftist in the past, now is supporting all the theses of the far-right party, very close to the Front National. So, don’t come with something which is politically completely not accurate.


The leaps and contortions taking place in this thread in a effort to put a good face on what Charlie Hebdo was doing is making me nauseous. The idea that because of their horrific mass murder we must now pretend Charlie Hebdo was doing something noble and heroic is ABSURD.
 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
40. Isn't Ramadan Egyptian? In other words he isn't French
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 08:01 PM
Jan 2015

so he doesn't understand the context either.

The rush to pretend Charlie Hebdo was doing something monstrous is a problem Imho when someone who isn't French tries to process these images without context.





CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
41. He's actually Swiss, of Egyptian origin. So effing what??
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 08:45 PM
Jan 2015

He's a highly respected scholar. He's on the faculty at Oxford.

You are perfectly demonstrating the contortions I was talking about.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
43. These cartoons have a French context that we do not understand
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 08:52 PM
Jan 2015

the naked Muhammed pic with his dick hanging dripping? That's parodying a popular French film. Same thing with the one where he's asking if the film director likes his ass - a parody of a French film.

Have you seen these films?

I haven't.

You're perfectly demonstrating the ugly American who doesn't try to understand that different cultures are different than the U.S. And that's a GOOD thing.

Not everything revolves around us and our way of seeing things.

CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
46. So "we" don't understand, but YOU do?
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 09:30 PM
Jan 2015

There is so much wrong with your logic, I would be careful about other people "ugly Americans".

What if the KKK put out racist cartoons and said "you Northerners just don't understand our culture down here"? Does that magically make them not racist?

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
47. I'm Irish living on IL. Yes. I do get most of them
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 09:37 PM
Jan 2015

I made a point to try to discover the provenance of the cartoons. Why they drew them and what the global influences were at the time of their publication. Have you? Or have you simply jumped on the DU bandwagon that's screeching about their heinousness without any context?

The KKK headquarters are in Indiana fyi. So yeah. It's way too simplistic to say they're "southern". And yes, they are racist unlike Charlie Hebdo.



CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
54. So you're not French then
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:34 PM
Jan 2015

Then by your own skewed logic, we should not listen to you. Remember, you said Tariq Ramadan, being Swiss and of Egyptian ancestry, was not qualified to weigh in.

DU bandwagon my ass. If there's a DU bandwagon at all, I'd say it's more of a selective outrage party than anything else.

And your nitpicking quibble about the location of KKK headquarters is ridiculous.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
56. Nope. Which means I know "out of context" implicitly
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:49 PM
Jan 2015

because I experience it daily.

So I make the supposition that you don't understand context. Because of my experience.

And fine. So it's a selective outrage party. I'm okay with that.

As for the KKK, I don't claim to believe that racism only exists in the south. I know it's everywhere. My point was simply to demonstrate its origins in counterpoint to you post.

 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
44. Blasphemy vs Bigotry
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 09:02 PM
Jan 2015

Melissa Perry-Harris quoted someone (if you saw it, please help) who said something like (paraphrasing):

Blasphemous satire comes from inside an institution and is intended to shake up the institution. Bigoted satire comes from outsiders deriding the institution.

That was the gist of it, anyway.

Nope, doesn't justify murder.

Nope, shouldn't use bigotry to drive profits.

AllenVanAllen

(3,134 posts)
57. Here's the Dr.Mahmood Mamdani quote MHP aired on her show.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:50 PM
Jan 2015


"Blasphemy is the practice of questioning a tradition from within. In contrast, bigotry is an assault on hat tradition from the outside. If blasphemy is an attempt to speak truth to power, bigotry is the reverse: an attempt by power to instrumentalize truth. A defining feature of the cartoon debate is that bigotry is being mistaken for blasphemy" ~ Dr.Mahmood Mamdani
 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
60. Sorry. But FGM and child marriage and child exploitation are not immune from critIcism
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jan 2015

from outside sources. That's not bigotry



 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
62. So ridiculous
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 11:42 PM
Jan 2015

What if my someone's tradition says that you can't speak ill of Republicans? How would that go over here?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
61. So DUers attacking the ideology of Republicanism would be bigotry?
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 11:40 PM
Jan 2015

Since we are attacking the Republican philosophy from the outside.

Or do religious ideologies have special rules different from other ideologies?

Pooka Fey

(3,496 posts)
69. So basically you have to convert to Islam in order to have standing to criticize the religion?
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 07:19 AM
Jan 2015

Otherwise you're engaging in bigotry. How nice and neat for Dr. Mahmood Mamdani. What defines a 'tradition'? Does anyone else see the intellectual problem, here? Freedom of expression can only exist within one's own tradition? So French Muslims are off the table to French atheists. I don't agree. What an absolute crock of shit.

Both parties were French citizens - both the Islamic terrorists and the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo - and thus hold a common tradition of mutual citizenship in a Western democracy with its rights and responsibilities. Both parties share a cultural 'tradition' of free expression guaranteed by their government the French Republic.

Let's remember that Muslim organizations had already sued the magazine in the French courts and LOST. Catholic organizations had also taken the magazine to court and LOST. Any French Muslim is free to sue any organization, such as a magazine, in the French court for bigotry. The French courts found no bigotry in this case.

In the cartoon debate now linked to a brutal terrorist attack, there has been a neat exchange of ideas between citizens of a free society. The cartoonists expressed their ideas artistically. The terrorists expressed their ideas using murderous violence and mayhem.

I conclude by saying "WTF???!!!"

Professor Pooka Fey

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
72. As I stated upthread: crock of bull.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:20 AM
Jan 2015

My critique of the Catholic Church for its misogyny is not "bigoted."

Calling a wrong "wrong" is not bigotry.

That's just crazy talk.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
71. I love MHP, but that attitude is a crock of bull.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:18 AM
Jan 2015

I'll deride the Catholic church all I want for being misogynistic, authoritarian, and hypocritical.

I'm not Catholic, so I'm a BIGOT?!?!?

Screw that!!

Evil is evil, wrong is wrong.

Not pointing it out wrong. One doesn't need the "permission" of membership to say something is wrong.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
55. I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 10:43 PM
Jan 2015

Voltaire

Guns do not dispense free speech.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
65. It is possible to be both
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:44 AM
Jan 2015

I'm going to ignore the people claiming that Islamophobia isn't racist. Islamophobia is frequently racist because when people picture a Muslim, they are almost always picturing a particular ethnicity. Moving on...

People (and publications) are rarely entirely black or white. Jimmy Carter is someone I like and admire. He's also flat wrong on same-sex marriage. Bill Clinton is someone I generally like. He signed into law a bill that disgracefully gutted welfare. Some DUers are ignorant or Islamophobic or militant anti-theists. Hell, the ultimate example: Adolf Hitler ordered the deaths of eleven million or so people, including half-a-million of my kinfolk. He was also an animal lover and, according to his WWI superiors, personally courageous. Life isn't tidy, almost no-one is entirely bad or good.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
73. CHARLIE HEBDO is an equal-opportunity offender...
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:23 AM
Jan 2015

There is hardly a race, religion, creed, nationality, or political persuasion that they have not skewered.

Their stated mission is to provoke, put down, and push the envelope--which they have done with relish and abandon. "Blasphemy" is their middle name.

I live in France and can honestly say that I've never appreciated their brand of "humour". But, their existence in a pluralistic, multi-cultural republic is essential and must never be infringed.

As so many headlines are proclaiming, "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T READ IT!"

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