Where will it end?

Unreal.

none at the murders of those cartoonists.

That's what team he plays for.

Also a gun fan.

Foul, disgusting filth that has no place on a liberal message board.

innocent?)

The fact that you are more outraged by cartoons than you are by murder indicates a serious moral deficiency.

I've never said they deserved to die or that the violence was justified.

None of them deserved to die, none of them.

What did the other 9 do that makes them other than "innocent victims?"

A horrible horrible act.

I'm glad that reports that six hostages were also killed have turned out to be erroneous.

Nothing but sadness resulted from these years of turmoil over cartoons and religious extremism.

I see no good coming as a result of any of this.

Do you?

#thingsthatmakeyougohmmmm

He definitely did. And has, multiple times.

me hope this was not all in vain.

So what did the 12 do to get brutally murdered?

There were 12 innocent people killed on Wednesday.

Sad that the poster is making every effort to not say those words.

Sid

I just happen to want to honor the lives and the loss of the three people who had nothing whatsoever to do with this years-long war of cartoons and guns.

The others were also victims, make no mistake.

None of the 12 had anything whatsoever to do with the murderous rampage, aside from the fact that they were victims.

why would you regret that they were killed? Also, how do you sleep at night?

Gotcha

All of them were victims.

Three of them were bystanders.

Be specific.

Some of the victims of these murders had done nothing to offend anyone, others were engaged in a campaign of satirical attacks against extremism, and others were just doing their jobs.

In some ways, all were innocent.

Indeed, all were innocent of any acts deserving of murder.

All twelve were innocent of acts deserving murder and mayhem.

And everyone who died in this Hebdo mess are victims, plain and simple.

I don't know why that needs to be explained over and over.

Comparisons to rape victims are really cringe-worthy.

That is MUCH more cringe-worthy.

I've seen some fucked up posts during my time at DU---but your last couple shoot to the top.

Cartoonists are soldiers?

That is how I read it. The targets of the horrific brutal murders were the cartoonists, and three others who were not necessarily targets, ALSO died.

These comments looking to find something nefarious in other people's comments make me wonder, what is the purpose? In the face of so much tragedy, to focus on trying to denigrate an anonymous poster on the internet, appears to be way out of place.

Back to the violence which is the topic of this OP.

Violence begets violence and until somehow the cycle is broken, it will continue.

The Iraq invasion was supposed to 'make us safe' from terrorists.

How many people still believe that?

And most importantly how can the violence be curtailed?

Thank you for the reply, sabrina1.

I wish more could appreciate the shades of grey that exist in these matters.

I'm encouraged by some of the replies and PMs I've gotten, but there have been far more attacks, or maybe it's a lot of attacks by just a handful of people.

Peace.

be smiling from his safe location, wherever that is.

'We are going to turn the Middle East into a glass parking lot'. and it couldn't be soon enough for him and his neocon friends.

How these psychopaths ever got control of our government will be a question historians will probably be asking for a long time.

Why they are not all in jail will also be a question for a long time.

As for seeing 'shades of grey' when you are not looking for discussion, you are not interested in shades of anything.

You defended NYC Skp--- ask him if all 12 were innocent.

my opinion, I see no reason to interrogate the poster. If I found the comment to be arbitrary in any way, I would have asked for clarification. I did not, having seen others discuss this aspect of these increasing murderous rampages, the fallout and murders of people who were not the direct targets. Is that not a fact, that when murderers have so much hatred for particular people, they do not care who they kill along with their targets?

How about that?

They've had ample opportunity, and are twisting like a pretzel to avoid acknowledging that the cartoonists were innocent.

Sid

accusing DUers, I presume that is who you mean by 'they' of condoning the murders in France.

You don't get to make such file accusations against DUers here without backing it up and not with just your opinion. Link to something that proves what you just said.

Unless of course you were not talking about DUers.

He can be with his victim blaming bullshit without getting a hide and he is doing a great job. He got a little scared yesterday and self deleted a bunch of vile victim blaming stuff.

And I saw the self-deletes. I think you nailed it with your comment about losing his spot as a Host.

Sid

Wow Sid.

I'm sorry that you want to jump on the ugly thought police bandwagon that insists that I call the cartoonists "innocent".

I don't mind so much, but to try to belittle anyone who might speak in defense of such comments is pretty disappointing and unnecessary.

some shotgun just a couple days after those kids were gunned down at Sandy Hook:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022002711#post34

Check post 34 in that thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022002711#post34

The owner of the site even said something to him about that thread. Everyone in the thread was begging him to self delete. So, after the owner said something to him, he self deleted it, but not before posting post 34 in that thread just to reiterate what he was really doing with that thread, pushing the boundaries of the rules of GD, ON PURPOSE.

I think that is so disgusting along with this latest refusal to see the other 9 cartoonists as innocent. This is more of the same mentality from him and what I have come to expect from him after mass shootings. It probably wouldn't hurt him to self delete before he even posts after any mass shootings, because all of his posts at those times veer off into very inappropriate victim blaming and insensitive pro gun posts.

There's no shame in self deleting when you're trying to keep the message simple.

Funny how freely expressing and opinion about the messages published by people using their freedom of expression gets attacked by certain people.

If you would bother to check, you'd see that I left my first reply open in every case because the rest in the subthread were just petty bickering with no substance.

I want people to feel able to express themselves without thinking they are the only ones who felt that maybe Hedbo cartoons were RUDE and MEAN.

And sometimes rude and mean cartoons backfire on the publishers..

I'm still sad for the three innocent victims who were doing nothing whatsover to provoke a terrorist attack yet lost their lives.

I hope this day is a terrific day for you, Warren.

Me, I'm hoping for another great sunset tonight out my living room window like I had last night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018710005

But I do understand your need to keep it simple for us mere mortals.

Apparently there had been a lot of alerting going on, yes.

And nobody wants to accumulate a bunch of hidden replies, at least I don't.

So, sure, there's nothing wrong with also wanting to avoid them.

But at the time I did it I was more thinking about how there only needed to be one statement and whatever replies would ensue.

All of my now self-deleted replies were eliciting their own replies which just muddied everything and was distracting me from better things to do.

I am encouraged by the number of new OPs and some members expressing similar unpopular thoughts: that the rude and mean cartoons were in this instance counterproductive, ineffectual, and that with the right to free expression comes responsibilities.

It's like our other freedoms, they need to be exercised responsibly.

You appear to revel in massacre events, where you invariably play a hand designed to generate as much outrage here as possible. Seems sort of a peculiar hobby to me, but if it floats your boat have at it.

My other house has a dock and I used to have a ski boat but I sold it. Now I just have an aluminum boat for fishing and a canoe and a kayak.

I will probably sell them all except the kayak, which I can use over here at the ocean.



My opinions about the cartoons are evolving:

I now feel that it's likely that not only did the mean and vulgar cartoons do nothing to advance peace in the world, they might have become tools to be used by the terrorists to create further division and to recruit more terrorists.

That's really sad, unintended consequences that came from whatever it is they were trying to do.

I'm glad you challenge me so. It keeps me on my toes!



Have a peaceful day, Warren

were what our military generally calls 'collateral damage'. Lots of people have been pondering that aspect of these murderous rampages. That they kill not just those they are angry at, but others too.

Were those three not innocent also? One was a French Muslim Police Officer who was brutally murdered, but would not have been there had the killers not gone to murder those innocent people they were angry at.

The fact remains though that the cowardly brothers targeted specific people inside the building.

Sid

of the killers. The other three were what WE in the US generally refer to as collateral damage, not direct targets of the murderers, but tragic victims who happened to be there, either trying to help those who were the targets, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I cannot understand why that was not clear. It's been said many times regarding those three by many people.

It is not the fault of the poster if a few people didn't get the context and meaning of the distinction. Most others definitely have and have commented on it.

If that is what the poster meant, then that is what the poster should have said. But it is not what was said. Most of the comments here indicate that more than a few people didn't see it the same way that you see it. Personally, I am not sure how this poster meant it. I just know that the wording was pretty clear to me.

Don't you just hate it when you find out you've been manipulated? You should.

the fact that when murderous lunatics target people for no good reason, they have no qualms killing everyone and anyone who happens to be there.

No one manipulates me, though many have tried!

i.e. have seen the shit posted yesterday blaming the artists, just cannot do.

has a history of, shall we say, deception or of holding Right Wing views, eg. I confess to not having much patience or trust in such people. Lie to me once, etc.

Otherwise I prefer to deal with the issue at hand as fairly as I can.

deletes going on, the callouts here are spot on.

I self deleted when I could see the swarming and after some very good DUers began to send me jury results, none of which resulted in a hide.

It was clear that I was being alert-bombed and not wanting a hide, I self-deleted most but not all of the replies I had made.

The alerts continue today, as do the PMs of support and today there have been quite a few replies of support.

I am expressing my genuine sadness that bystanders were killed and I fail to see how these particular cartoons contribute to finding peace between members of different religions.

This purity test that people are trying to administer here is failing.

Take care now.

Man, I'm hanging out at my beach condo, usually it's rented out but nobody wants it so I'm here for a couple weeks. I think I'll move here permanently as this mortgage is the same as my primary residence, which I wouldn't mind selling.

It's killer. It overlooks the Pacific Ocean and I can see the coast to the south and all the way across to the north, and the beach right below.

I see the ocean out of every window and can watch the moon set over the ocean from my bedroom (or bathroom, or any room).

My dog and I walk down to the beach every day, it's only a block down the hill, or we walk along the cliffs.

And nothing is as soothing to me as the sound of the surf, which is almost too loud sometimes!

So don't cry! I'm fine, friend!

Can't be bothered with that bullshit.

And what possesses you to make such remarks?

I'm not ashamed at all, in fact I left many of my remarks open because I want others to feel free to express themselves about things and not feel bullied and stalked.

If you would bother to check, you'd see that I left my first reply open in every case because the rest in the subthread were just petty bickering with no substance.

I want people to feel able to express themselves without thinking they are the only ones who felt that maybe Hedbo cartoons were RUDE and MEAN.

And sometimes rude and mean cartoons backfire on the publishers..

I'm still sad for the three innocent victims who were doing nothing whatsover to provoke a terrorist attack yet lost their lives.

I hope this day is a terrific day for you, bettyellen.

Me, I'm hoping for another great sunset tonight out my living room window like I had last night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018710005

another is this silly view chatter. No one cares where you live, really. Not a whit.

So I self deleted a bunch of replies in petty little small-minded conversations with people who don't see eye to eye with me but can't let it go.

So I ended it right there, not in the mood to pick back and forth with them.

Oh, and it's not just the view. It's the sounds of the surf 24/7 crashing outside, that's very soothing!

These things keep me centered and smiling, even when I'm having internet conversations with people who aren't having as nice a day as me.

You might not know it, bettyellen, but you are surrounded by beauty.

You might want to try going outside and finding a plant and just study it, the beautiful structure and color and the wonder of it all, a living thing, one of God's creations.

You are surrounded by miracles! Do you have a pet? A cat or dog or bird, all are wondrous miracles!

I hope this makes you think and makes you smile.

victims (which you then hid) has nothing to do with anything else in anyone's life. You are just distancing yourself, and deflecting by posting bizarre fantasies about your imagined superior life. Again, I have no rats ass to give ya here, Skip. Your guesses are off base, and evasion well noted.

Can't stand up for yourself with all these deletes, let alone anyone who was murdered because they enjoy the rights and freedoms of a civil society.

I stand with them, because that could have been me, protecting an abortion clinic or protesting. But then again, I have put myself on the line, not cowered or self- censored as you have (and encourage others to). Try it sometime, and who knows- you might begin to feel some solidarity for other progressives. As it stands now, you have shown none.

Nothing I deleted blamed the murders on the victims, that suggestion of yours is very clever but untrue.

I stand with the oppressed, the targets of Islamophobia, Transphobia, Misogyny, all of it. Words and images HURT PEOPLE.

If you want to assume some position of moral authority, go for it.

I'm sticking to my guns and to my right to express my opinion that apart from their being victims of murder, these cartoons were vulgar and mean and pointless.

A lot of people are hurt as a result of satire, sometimes it just isn't worth it.

You be sure to have a nice day, and remember to smile once in a while.

"These comments looking to find something nefarious in other people's comments make me wonder, what is the purpose?"

I was on two different Jury's last night where that person was alerted on for supposedly offensive posts related to this subject. Both rose to the level of, 'Why were these even alerted on?'.

...on a matter involving freedom of expression, freedom of speech.

I express an opinion different from the majority on the matter of Hebro's use of editorial satire, and am immediately chastised, and attempts made to hide my opinions.

It's rather contradictory, IMO.

It's more like, "I'm alerting on you because something that isn't there can be vaguely inferred from what you posted"

Un-freaking-believable that you would say that. So, the rest of those at the Charlie Hebdo office were not innocent? They somehow deserved their fate?

You have dropped in my estimation almost beyond notice.

Hey NY---all 12 were innocent...correct?

I think we will get some hemming and hawing about it, though. The poster has been consistent in multiple threads in assigning blame to the Charlie Hebdo staff. They are the reason they are dead, not the actions of the shooters. They are the ones to blame, according to that poster. They brought about their own fate by publishing those images. That is what I'm reading, and I don't like it one bit.

I have read the posts, including the self-deleted ones. I can come to no other conclusion.

The cartoonists, according to Skippy, should have known to expect this. They are the ones who put the "innocents" around them at risk. Skippy will admit the cartoonists were victims, but he cannot admit they were innocent.

the publishing of their images. They are not innocent in that poster's mind. He will not call them innocent. He will not directly say that they are responsible for their own deaths. He will say that they should have known that the images might lead to violence and restrained themselves. They did not, and now they're dead.

It's a very nuanced approach in the individual posts. If we see the nuance, we are incorrect, despite its obviousness.

Je suis Charlie!

shameful little game.

to be self-deleted.

this forum's tools provided by the Administration. There are so many things I wish I had saved also, but who has time for that really?

Or was that someone else? Maybe my memory is not that great? Though I could swear that after the self deleting of entire posts and OPs, there was rigorous defense of using that particular tool? Nothing was to be inferred by it! Was that not you? I did agree with the substance of your argument for self deleting, if it was you, it IS a tool provided by the Admins.

I have self-deleted posts, as you correctly remember. It's a feature available on DU. I'm not criticizing any self-deletions, just mentioning them. There's nothing wrong with deleting one's own posts. I never said or implied that there was. However that someone did self-delete a post is a fact that can be mentioned.

I have to congratulate you on your memory, though. I rarely self-delete a post. Good for you for remembering. You seem to have an excellent memory for things. Oddly enough, so do I.

the person's desire not to have them visible. Being that you have an excellent memory, why would have wanted to save them? So naturally I assumed you had changed your mind about a person's right to delete their own posts in order not to have them visible to the forum in general. Saving other people's posts seems a bit creepy to me, frankly. What would be the purpose of that other than to use them against the person you are disagreeing with.

Of course I remember, I imagine, being that there was so much deleted, it was a rather memorable DU event.

Yes, some things do stick in the collective memory of a forum like this. But as I said, if someone feels the need to delete their posts, I agree, can't see any reason for others to try to thwart that as you stated you wish you had done.

While I'm always flattered by your interest in me and what I write here, it still puzzles me. I won't bother asking for an explanation, though. Please do continue. It makes me feel all important and a little tingly somehow. I can't explain it...

He deleted that crap. He can't delete reality.

I read them, but my memory isn't good enough to quote them verbatim. It was when I was younger, but no more.

The trend, though, shows that what you say is certainly possible. I remember, but won't attempt to reconstruct the deleted posts.

hide. But people who cannot understand standing with those who were senselessly murdered can't be expected to stand by their own opinions either it seems. Stupid little games.

Odd since you generally educate us on the English language, that you of all people, totally did not get that comment.

Let me help you. Though my language skills may fall short by your standards.

Nine people were the DIRECT targets of the murderers.

Three were not.

This has been mentioned by many people over the past few days. The tragedy of people being killed even when they are not the direct target.

Many were wounded also, bystanders not the direct targets of the murderous rampage.

There was no ambiguity in that comment. And if you are accusing a DUer of somehow condoning the murders of the other nine people, then please back that up as it is a vile and despicable thing to say about any DUer here.

If not, then a clarification would be appreciated.

I will not answer to you. I'm not even talking to you. Consider this, though:

Res ipsa loquitur.

answered it. Thank you. Clarification was all I asked for, and you have provided it.

I am not required to do so, and will not. I was not in any discussion with you at all, and prefer not to be.

The thing speaks for itself.

If you don't want to clarify what appeared to be an attack on another DUer, no you don't have to address it, no one has to 'answer' to anyone, though you did appear to be asking NY to answer to you, no?

We have exchanged a number of posts in those threads. I addressed his questions and he addressed mine. Not always satisfactorily for either of us, I'm sure. However, I do not remember addressing you prior to your question about those discussions. I feel no responsibility to discuss anything on a second-hand basis. I had my discussion with the person involved.

You may want to consult the discussion between us that begins with this post from me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6062983

I never really find discussions with you to be fruitful in any way, so I generally avoid them or keep them limited. I'm sure you'll understand. Now, I have other things to do.

...with other people who agree with me?'

Well, that's a study in confidence!

Actually I don't really blame you. Your position if so riddled with logical fallacies as to be indefensible.

Look at the thread. I feel no responsibility to discuss it with random DUers, and I have reasons for not doing so. None of those reasons have anything to do with you, however.

More of the same...

If you don't want people chiming in on your posts, send private messages instead. This is an open forum.

Were they "guilty" of something?

Here's what you said:

Nine people were the DIRECT targets of the murderers.

Three were not.

You evidently agree with NYC_SKP that the three who were not, were innocent. I'm asking about the other nine. What were they?

not my problem. There's a lot of that going around.