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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf Mormons started murdering those who ridicule Joseph Smith or mock their undergarments,
would there be a spate of hand-wringing editorials urging those who criticize Mormonism to be "sensitive" and "sensible"? Would harsh critics of Mormonism be criticized themselves for irresponsibly inciting violence? Would DUers post screeds comprised of the several rules one needs to follow in order to criticize Mormonism in a responsible manner?
What kind of message does this send to religious folks who want to mute or silence critics of their religion?
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If Mormons started murdering those who ridicule Joseph Smith or mock their undergarments, (Original Post)
Nye Bevan
Jan 2015
OP
Yes. And I wonder whether an Islamic analog to "the Book of Mormon" could ever be made.
Nye Bevan
Jan 2015
#8
My favorite part: When he broke his leg jumping out the window from the lynch mob only to be shot.
Spitfire of ATJ
Jan 2015
#54
Actually, I read some articles maybe 25 or so years ago about some attacks on reporters who were
tblue37
Jan 2015
#50
Again. The question is about *contemporary* Mormons. That is, present-day. 2015. (nt)
Nye Bevan
Jan 2015
#17
That aspect of history was largely unknown to me until I found this a few years ago....
xocet
Jan 2015
#59
Some Mormons pay-rolled Proposition 8. As far as I know , Mormons haven't been subjected
KittyWampus
Jan 2015
#11
Mormons ARE criticized for things like funding anti gay measures , we make fun of the underwear
JI7
Jan 2015
#23
And they have historically retaliated with violence and destroying a newspaper
jberryhill
Jan 2015
#24
HAve you read the Book *Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith*?
Raine1967
Jan 2015
#26
I can't say about Smith but naming your oxen Brigham Young and Heber Kimball can get yourself deaded
Brother Buzz
Jan 2015
#36
There was the murder of two brothers and one of their daughters in Houston
Thinkingabout
Jan 2015
#42
If ALL Mormons stared murdering people in the name of their religion....
Spitfire of ATJ
Jan 2015
#47
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)1. I wouldn't have wanted to seriously annoy with a Danite, though.
Wikipedia:
The Danites were a fraternal organization founded by Latter Day Saint (LDS) members in June 1838, in the town of Far West in Caldwell County, Missouri. During their period of organization in Missouri, the Danites operated as a vigilante group and took a central role in the events of the 1838 Mormon War. Whether or not the Danites existed after the 1847 arrival of the LDS in Utah is still debated. However, they remained an important part of Mormon and non-Mormon folklore, polemics, and propaganda for the remainder of the 19th century, waning in ideological prominence after Utah gained statehood. Notwithstanding public excommunications of Danite leaders by the Church and both public and private statements from Joseph Smith referring to the band as being both evil in nature and a "secret combination" (i.e., a derogatory term used in the Book of Mormon) to which he attributed no part of, the nature and scope of the organization, and the degree to which it was officially connected to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are a matter of some dispute among historians. Earlier in the band's existence, Joseph Smith appeared to endorse the group's actions, but later turned against them as violence increased and the actions of the Danites inspired a hysteria in Missouri that eventually led to the Extermination Order.
In 1834, during the march of Zion's Camp, Joseph Smith created a militia known as the "Armies of Israel" to protect his community. Some historians have alleged this militia to be the original formation of the Danite band. After the 1838 war, the term "Danite" was often connected with Latter Day Saint peacekeeping, including the Nauvoo, Illinois police, the bodyguards of Joseph Smith, Jr., and the "whistling and whittling brigades". Although some members of these later groups had been Danites in the Missouri period, the leadership of the 1838 secret society, particularly Sampson Avard, was not associated with the leadership of the peace-keeping militias commonly referred to by the same name.
In 1834, during the march of Zion's Camp, Joseph Smith created a militia known as the "Armies of Israel" to protect his community. Some historians have alleged this militia to be the original formation of the Danite band. After the 1838 war, the term "Danite" was often connected with Latter Day Saint peacekeeping, including the Nauvoo, Illinois police, the bodyguards of Joseph Smith, Jr., and the "whistling and whittling brigades". Although some members of these later groups had been Danites in the Missouri period, the leadership of the 1838 secret society, particularly Sampson Avard, was not associated with the leadership of the peace-keeping militias commonly referred to by the same name.
Journeyman
(15,036 posts)2. You mean like this one? . . .
I understand the Mormons were very receptive to the musical, "Book of Mormon." Never heard how they reacted to this (though the Mormons who commented on the YouTube video seem generally in favor).
For me? It's all "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb."
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)8. Yes. And I wonder whether an Islamic analog to "the Book of Mormon" could ever be made.
Actually, strike that. We all know the answer to that question.
valerief
(53,235 posts)44. I love that episode!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)54. My favorite part: When he broke his leg jumping out the window from the lynch mob only to be shot.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)67. dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!
Never fails to make me laugh.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)3. DU would look much like it does now.
With some people being irrational and hateful, and the rest of us mourning a tragedy and not trying to broadbrush entire groups because we aren't pushing agendas.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)12. Everyone with an IQ above room temperature has an agenda
Response to Fumesucker (Reply #12)
Jesus Malverde This message was self-deleted by its author.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)4. You mean the 1838 Mormon War, the Illinois Mormon War or the Utah Mormon War
Take your pick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_War
I also presume you understand just what it is Smith was in jail about at the time of the riot in which he died.
His supporters had destroyed the offices of a newspaper which was critical of them.
The first one was characterized by the US Army thus:
"The citizens of Daviess, Carroll, and some other normal counties have raised mob after mob for the last two months for the purpose of driving a group of fanatics, (called mormons) from those counties and from the State. These things have at length goaded the mormons into a state of desperation that has now made them the aggressors instead of acting on the defensive."
But I'm thinking you are either very clever, or else happened upon a remarkable historical coincidence:
Dissatisfaction with the perceived theocracy also arose from within. In 1844, First Presidency member, William Law — an important merchant and counselor to Smith — broke with the church president over both the issue of plural marriage and the legal issues in Nauvoo. Law was excommunicated and founded a reformed church called the True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He also established a newspaper named the Nauvoo Expositor which threatened to expose the practice of plural marriage; only one issue was published.
On June 10, Smith held a meeting of the city council which, after two full days of meeting, condemned the Expositor as "a public nuisance" and empowered him to order the press destroyed. A portion of the Nauvoo Legion, Smith's militia, marched into the office, wrecked the press and burned every copy of the Nauvoo Expositor that could be found.
The destruction of the press was seen as an opportunity by critics such as Thomas Sharp, whose paper in nearby Warsaw had been openly calling for destruction of the Church. Fanned by Sharp and others, public sentiment held that the action was illegal and unconstitutional. Some non-Mormons and disaffected church members in and around Hancock county, Illinois, began to call for Smith's arrest. Smith, his brother Hyrum, and several other church leaders submitted to arrest. While awaiting trial in Carthage, the county seat, under assurance of safety from Illinois governor Ford, Joseph and Hyrum Smith were assassinated when a vigilante mob attacked the jail.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)6. No, I mean contemporary Mormons (nt)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)13. But Mormons DID do what you hypothesize
The response was first to kick them out of Missouri, and then they were kicked out of Illinois, and then we sent the US Army to Utah to take them out until they gave in.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)29. +1
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)33. Thanks for that
A historical perspective is often lacking in this era of boob tube punditry.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)10. I assume the poster is talking about 2015. n/t
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)18. I assume the poster is being very clever
These things actually happened - including the attack on a newspaper - right here in the US.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)30. Yeah, but we're talking a century or two ago for the Mormons.
They have long since given up responding to insults with violence.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)40. Right, but if they did, today we'd use drone strikes
...and maybe not respond the way we did last time.
tblue37
(65,408 posts)50. Actually, I read some articles maybe 25 or so years ago about some attacks on reporters who were
doing exposés about corruption in the LDS church. My memory of the articles is quite vague now, but when the Scientologist attacks on reporters started happening, I remember thinking the attacks sounded like the sort I had read about before, perpetrated against those writing LDS exposés.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)64. You are probably thinking of the White Salamander Letter affair
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)34. I don't think so
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)5. ALL Mormons? Every one?
Is this a push poll?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)7. No, I mean some Mormons (nt)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)16. The US and its non-Mormon populace responding by going after them ALL
Did you really just stumble onto this as a "hypothetical"?
Or did you intentionally mean to draw some kind of parallel about what indeed happened, when that indeed happened?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)17. Again. The question is about *contemporary* Mormons. That is, present-day. 2015. (nt)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)19. What is different about Americans now?
We retaliated against the lot of them.
I assume we'd do it again.
That's why they are IN Utah.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)20. We'd do the same damned thing
When America gets pissed, the national motto is "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out."
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)27. And 'we don't do body counts' and 'treat the Iraqis like dogs' etc etc.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)9. if there was Mormon terrorism
then of course people would take the opportunity to smear all Mormons.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)14. There was, and the response was more than smearing
Do people really not know the entire story of WHY they are in Utah?
These were bloody violent conflicts culminating in the assassination of Joseph Smith after he ordered the destruction of a newspaper.
It's a really interesting "compare and contrast" story.
xocet
(3,871 posts)59. That aspect of history was largely unknown to me until I found this a few years ago....
Missouri State Archives
The Missouri Mormon War
In the 1830s, “Mormonism” commanded center stage in Missouri politics. Joseph Smith and the church he founded in New York State in 1830 quickly gained converts, attracting considerable attention throughout the northeastern United States. Originally named the Church of Christ, it subsequently became the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Believers were referred to as “Mormons” because of the church’s adherence to “The Book of Mormon,” a companion scripture to the Bible that Smith claimed to have translated, wherein the story of Jesus Christ appearing to the ancestors of the Native Americans was told.
That same year, Smith dispatched a handful of missionaries to Missouri’s western border to preach the “restored gospel” to the Native American tribes concentrated there. In 1831 Smith proclaimed that God had designated western Missouri as the place where “Zion” would be “gathered” in anticipation of Christ’s second coming. His small band of missionaries soon became a steady stream of converts anxious to establish Zion in Missouri.
Within a few years, the migration and settlement of Latter-day Saints in frontier Missouri led to events that would earn Mormonism a painful place in Missouri history. The state’s “Old Settlers” (usually recent immigrants to the Missouri frontier themselves) characterized the Mormon settlers as fanatics whose clannish behavior made a mockery of republican institutions by placing power in the hands of a single man. The Mormons claimed that they had done nothing wrong, and were attacked for their religious beliefs. Violence broke out in 1833 as the “Old Settlers” under the guise of “extra-legal” justice took the law into their own hands.
It soon became clear that Missouri non-Mormons and Mormons could not live in the same area harmoniously. In 1836 a “separate but equal” proposal was finally devised to solve this problem, whereby the state legislature created a new county, “Caldwell,” in northwest Missouri as a sort of Mormon “Indian Reservation.” But the booming Mormon population, swelled by the immigration of thousands of eastern converts doomed this to failure, as Mormon settlers burst the borders of Caldwell County and spilled into neighboring counties. Violence broke out again at an election riot in 1838. Old Settler mobs and Mormon paramilitary units roamed the countryside. When the Mormons attacked a duly authorized militia under the belief it was an anti-Mormon mob, Missouri’s governor, Lilburn Boggs, ordered the Saints expelled from the state, or “exterminated,” if necessary. The conflict’s viciousness escalated, however, even without official sanction, when, on October 30, 1838, an organized mob launched a surprise attack on the small Mormon community of Haun’s Mill, massacring eighteen unsuspecting men and boys. Over the next year, around eight thousand church members, often ragged and deprived of their property, left Missouri for Illinois.
The Missouri State Archives’ “Mormon War Papers” shed light on this frequently misunderstood episode of Missouri history. This collection includes documents such as Governor Bogg’s infamous “Extermination Order”, but also many lesser known, and less appreciated, documents that are well worthy of study, such as the report of the legislative joint committee appointed to investigate the “disturbances” between Mormons and non-Mormons. Included also are such items as legislative debates and the governors’ state of the state addresses in which the “Mormon problem” is discussed. The collection also includes the criminal hearing of Joseph Smith and other church leaders for treason and other crimes.
The Missouri State Archives would like to express its thanks to the Genealogical Society of Utah, the St. Louis Mercantile Library (and its director John Hoover), the Columbia Stake of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Stephen S .Davis for their assistance in making these documents available.
http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp
The Missouri Mormon War
In the 1830s, “Mormonism” commanded center stage in Missouri politics. Joseph Smith and the church he founded in New York State in 1830 quickly gained converts, attracting considerable attention throughout the northeastern United States. Originally named the Church of Christ, it subsequently became the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Believers were referred to as “Mormons” because of the church’s adherence to “The Book of Mormon,” a companion scripture to the Bible that Smith claimed to have translated, wherein the story of Jesus Christ appearing to the ancestors of the Native Americans was told.
That same year, Smith dispatched a handful of missionaries to Missouri’s western border to preach the “restored gospel” to the Native American tribes concentrated there. In 1831 Smith proclaimed that God had designated western Missouri as the place where “Zion” would be “gathered” in anticipation of Christ’s second coming. His small band of missionaries soon became a steady stream of converts anxious to establish Zion in Missouri.
Within a few years, the migration and settlement of Latter-day Saints in frontier Missouri led to events that would earn Mormonism a painful place in Missouri history. The state’s “Old Settlers” (usually recent immigrants to the Missouri frontier themselves) characterized the Mormon settlers as fanatics whose clannish behavior made a mockery of republican institutions by placing power in the hands of a single man. The Mormons claimed that they had done nothing wrong, and were attacked for their religious beliefs. Violence broke out in 1833 as the “Old Settlers” under the guise of “extra-legal” justice took the law into their own hands.
It soon became clear that Missouri non-Mormons and Mormons could not live in the same area harmoniously. In 1836 a “separate but equal” proposal was finally devised to solve this problem, whereby the state legislature created a new county, “Caldwell,” in northwest Missouri as a sort of Mormon “Indian Reservation.” But the booming Mormon population, swelled by the immigration of thousands of eastern converts doomed this to failure, as Mormon settlers burst the borders of Caldwell County and spilled into neighboring counties. Violence broke out again at an election riot in 1838. Old Settler mobs and Mormon paramilitary units roamed the countryside. When the Mormons attacked a duly authorized militia under the belief it was an anti-Mormon mob, Missouri’s governor, Lilburn Boggs, ordered the Saints expelled from the state, or “exterminated,” if necessary. The conflict’s viciousness escalated, however, even without official sanction, when, on October 30, 1838, an organized mob launched a surprise attack on the small Mormon community of Haun’s Mill, massacring eighteen unsuspecting men and boys. Over the next year, around eight thousand church members, often ragged and deprived of their property, left Missouri for Illinois.
The Missouri State Archives’ “Mormon War Papers” shed light on this frequently misunderstood episode of Missouri history. This collection includes documents such as Governor Bogg’s infamous “Extermination Order”, but also many lesser known, and less appreciated, documents that are well worthy of study, such as the report of the legislative joint committee appointed to investigate the “disturbances” between Mormons and non-Mormons. Included also are such items as legislative debates and the governors’ state of the state addresses in which the “Mormon problem” is discussed. The collection also includes the criminal hearing of Joseph Smith and other church leaders for treason and other crimes.
The Missouri State Archives would like to express its thanks to the Genealogical Society of Utah, the St. Louis Mercantile Library (and its director John Hoover), the Columbia Stake of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Stephen S .Davis for their assistance in making these documents available.
http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp
The "Extermination Order":
"... Your orders are therefore to hasten your operations with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public peace - their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force you are authorized to do so to any extent that you consider necessary. ..."
http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormRecs/eo/18381027_ExtermOrder.pdf
"... Your orders are therefore to hasten your operations with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public peace - their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force you are authorized to do so to any extent that you consider necessary. ..."
http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormRecs/eo/18381027_ExtermOrder.pdf
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)11. Some Mormons pay-rolled Proposition 8. As far as I know , Mormons haven't been subjected
to hate speech themselves. And I don't think all Mormons are actively homophobic.
They aren't a minority being trageted by xenophobic racist NeoNazis.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)15. This is not a hypothetical - it is the history of Mormons
All of their asses got kicked clean to Utah, and the US was going to invade that too!
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)21. How many Mormons?
A tiny handful? That would be the correct analogy.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)22. If it was a small minority of Mormons doing the killing,
the proper response would be "not all Mormons are senseless killers." Is that so hard?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)25. The response was to send the Army against them all
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)66. Yes, which I've learned from reading these comments.
I wasn't really familiar with Mormon history.
It seems that terrorism is an integral component of the human condition. Sadly.
JI7
(89,252 posts)23. Mormons ARE criticized for things like funding anti gay measures , we make fun of the underwear
and when it came to that more fundamentalist sect we made fun of the women's hair and dresses.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)24. And they have historically retaliated with violence and destroying a newspaper
And after that, they got their asses kicked.
NB is picking at an old, but still present, historical scab.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)26. HAve you read the Book *Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith*?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven
As others have pointed out on this thread, this might not be the best example to use to make a point.
Mormonism is a relatively new religion, there really is not much room to consider parts of it modern, especially when there still is a FLDS faction.
—
Raine
As others have pointed out on this thread, this might not be the best example to use to make a point.
Mormonism is a relatively new religion, there really is not much room to consider parts of it modern, especially when there still is a FLDS faction.
—
Raine
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)28. I think the reactions would probably be similiar to know.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)31. Mormons, and their Religion are "well-off", generally speaking.
They have lots and lots of money ... so they do not need violence.
Mormons will, out in the secular world, work together, with loans and funding, outside the standard financial world.
Rich Religions use governments to do their bidding.
greyl
(22,990 posts)65. Good point. They have money and room. nt
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)35. They did. "Mountain Meadows"
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)41. +1
Exactly
REP
(21,691 posts)45. Beat me to it - and there was no satire involved
Unless the Navoo Militia was being sarcastic when they ran up a white flag and told the settlers they would enter their camp peacefully.
Brother Buzz
(36,444 posts)36. I can't say about Smith but naming your oxen Brigham Young and Heber Kimball can get yourself deaded
treestar
(82,383 posts)37. You're looking to justify broad brushing
There's nothing wrong with Islam. What's wrong is some of the people. Some nut might someday do something in the name of Mormonism. That's because he's a nut, not because he's a Mormon. Insane head cases come from all walks of life.
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)38. GET A BRAIN, MORMANS!!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)39. Ah, okay, modern times? Drone Strikes
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)42. There was the murder of two brothers and one of their daughters in Houston
In 1988 by members of the LeBaron family apparently because they left the group. It is interesting how Smith compared himself to Muhommad and the beginning of the two religions.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)43. Wow, did you pick a bad example.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)48. That's why I use the Amish....
As a bonus, it's a safe bet they're not reading it too.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)56. Okay--that was pretty damn funny! nt
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)46. The musical the Book of Mormon mocks Mormonism
The Mormons actually bought a page in the playbooks to promote LDS.
I don't like religion nor do I like the reasons Mormons excommunicate people who leave, but... That's what religions should do, ignore the mocking or just play along.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)47. If ALL Mormons stared murdering people in the name of their religion....
But they don't.
And ALL Muslims aren't murdering people either.
In fact, it's against their religion to kill.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)55. It's definitely not against their religion to kill
It's against their religion to kill "innocents".
There are several scenarios outlined where the religion allows for (and in some cases asks for) killing.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)57. Oh, you mean like the Bible?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)58. Precisely
Even more killing called for in the OT than the other books.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)62. It's no wonder genocide is considered to be a fix all.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)49. Good point about their underdrawers......
...because it makes them invincible.
- We'd all be Mormons by now.
K&R
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)51. The problem lies in assuming that religious groups are monolithic entities,
and that the actions of a few are absolutely representative of the wishes of all.
We see this in the Religion forum every day: because bigoted reactionaries such as the Westboro Baptist Church engage in egregiously offensive and hateful behavior, some self-described atheists believe it is okay to insult and degrade all Christians as if somehow all Christians are responsible for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.
What I see is thinly-veiled bigotry against Muslims bubbling to the surface in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attack. Because of the horrific nature of the incident, some people believe that it's now OK to engage in bigotry against Islam.
So, I urge others to restrain from using this tragedy as an excuse to vent anger at Muslims.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)52. I would say the same thing no matter what.
Jail the perpetrators of horrific crimes. Don't assign collective guilt to entire groups, but solely to those who actually commit crimes.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)53. well said, eom
hunter
(38,317 posts)60. Does dressing up as Indians and slaughtering non-Mormon immigrants count?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
Most of my 17th, 18th, and 19th century ancestors were pacifist refugees of religious warfare, the ones who walked or ran away from Omelas into the U.S.A. "wild west."
One of my ancestors was a mail order bride to Salt Lake City. She didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a U.S.A. government surveyor and established a homestead in the heart of Mormon country. Oddly enough they became respected in the Mormon community as neutral political and religious outsiders, non-backstabbers, who could be trusted to fairly decide disputes uninfluenced by highly volatile church politics.
In the valley they lived in the Mormon families were all distrustful of one another so they chose outsiders as their water-masters and later as representatives of U.S.A. subsidized telephone and electricity services.
My great grandma was distrustful of electricity but my great grandfather was enthralled with radio. Rural electrification was the cheapest way to support his radio habit.
My great grandma's house had no indoor plumbing, two forty watt light bulbs, and an RCA radio and record player set. Ninety years old and I don't think she'd ever forgiven her dead husband for those extravagant purchases. I remember her scolding my mom's cousin for the Sears Catalog indoor plumbing he'd installed in the "new" (early 1900's) house. Her house was a two room log cabin powered by the kitchen wood stove, with the unfortunate additions of two electric lights, a single power outlet for the radio and record player, and a crank-to-ring-up-the-nosy operator telephone party line.
Most of my 17th, 18th, and 19th century ancestors were pacifist refugees of religious warfare, the ones who walked or ran away from Omelas into the U.S.A. "wild west."
One of my ancestors was a mail order bride to Salt Lake City. She didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a U.S.A. government surveyor and established a homestead in the heart of Mormon country. Oddly enough they became respected in the Mormon community as neutral political and religious outsiders, non-backstabbers, who could be trusted to fairly decide disputes uninfluenced by highly volatile church politics.
In the valley they lived in the Mormon families were all distrustful of one another so they chose outsiders as their water-masters and later as representatives of U.S.A. subsidized telephone and electricity services.
My great grandma was distrustful of electricity but my great grandfather was enthralled with radio. Rural electrification was the cheapest way to support his radio habit.
My great grandma's house had no indoor plumbing, two forty watt light bulbs, and an RCA radio and record player set. Ninety years old and I don't think she'd ever forgiven her dead husband for those extravagant purchases. I remember her scolding my mom's cousin for the Sears Catalog indoor plumbing he'd installed in the "new" (early 1900's) house. Her house was a two room log cabin powered by the kitchen wood stove, with the unfortunate additions of two electric lights, a single power outlet for the radio and record player, and a crank-to-ring-up-the-nosy operator telephone party line.
xocet
(3,871 posts)61. To respectfully recast your question...
"If Scientologists started murdering those who ridicule L. Ron Hubbard or mock their personality tests,
would there be a spate of hand-wringing editorials urging those who criticize Scientology to be "sensitive" and "sensible"? Would harsh critics of Scientology be criticized themselves for irresponsibly inciting violence? Would DUers post screeds comprised of the several rules one needs to follow in order to criticize Scientology in a responsible manner?
What kind of message does this send to religious folks who want to mute or silence critics of their religion?"
would there be a spate of hand-wringing editorials urging those who criticize Scientology to be "sensitive" and "sensible"? Would harsh critics of Scientology be criticized themselves for irresponsibly inciting violence? Would DUers post screeds comprised of the several rules one needs to follow in order to criticize Scientology in a responsible manner?
What kind of message does this send to religious folks who want to mute or silence critics of their religion?"
UTUSN
(70,711 posts)63. It's a matter of time: Tom CRUISE will someday be a saint in Scientology. n/t
